this was disheartening to read about. i'm afraid the city may be forced to go for tower city this time since its cheaper than renovating and expanding the current cc. thats a shame as well as a mistake. for one thing, was there not just a press conference announcing going forward with the ohio high speed rail service plan? the new station for that would tie right into a renovated cc and maybe both could be tied together into one big project? its just an idea, but the point is think ahead. also, what on earth would happen with the old facilities? and again why place a pedestrian unfriendly big box on the waterfront like that?

 

if they do anything at all, they need to keep thinking about the future on this and do the right thing and not cheap out.

 

I was just wondering what ever happened to these plans by FORUM Architects...

For More Info  go to

http://www.forumarc.com/thelakefront/mallc.html

 

Those renderings are great, but I think that it would take up too much space on the lakefront.  I would rather have housing on the port's land.

 

I don't know what to think about Forest City's proposal.  I am for the other site, but Forest City has the following going for it:  direct link to 2 hotels, shopping, movies and rapid transit to the airport and Gund arena.  I think that those are selling points that are superior to the present location.  Overall, if I were an out of towner looking for a place to have my convention, I would prefer the tower city site for the above reasons.  Of course, I would rather have conventioneers out roaming the streets than all locked up into the Tower City universe.  But, the idea is to bring in more business.  My guess is that TC would bring in more business than the present location.  However, you have to weigh that against having an empty center on the lake and the loss of a possible connection to the waterfront. 

^it looks like an airport

You know if FC was THAT pissy about the county HQ, how will they react if the convention center still winds up on the mall?

I think a back room deal just happend.  But, it may be for the best anyways.

I always liked that FORUM vision for the center. But there's nothing that would have prevented building high-rise housing atop some of the parking facilities. If I recall, that plan also would have rerouted the Waterfront Line around the north side of the center, next to the lakefront. Alas, it wasn't to be.

 

If the riverfront site gets the nod, FC better make sure the Cuyahoga Valley Scenic Railroad station can be accommodated. I've even pondered a way to get intercity high-speed rail back into the station -- despite the construction of the Federal Courthouse Tower. But I'll discuss it at the Transportation section.

 

KJP

You know if the Tower city site is picked all that would be missing to make it a functioning mini-city is housing.

I hope the Scranton Penn. comes back into play

Ratners are playing the same game that Goldman played with LM...they still wanted it they just wanted to scare people.

 

I was thinking the same thing!

 

now they they might do this again, I hope the Jane will make them good on their promise to "enhance" TowerCity and upgrade/add on to the hotels and Scranton Penisula!

 

Personally I still like the the mall location as it can be attached to the lakefront.

 

Concentrating everything in one location and not letting the city "expand" is not a good thing in my opinion.

 

Will building the CC attached to Towercity help the gateway and Warehouse district?  Areas that are already doing fine and would grow regardless of where the center was.  Or do we miss an opportunity to "enhance and strengthen" our lakefront and St. Clair and Lakeside?

I don't think that the current site would help anything other than the lakefront.  Really, it is not a great location.  One of Cleveland's biggest issues is the fact that our downtown's focal points are not connected.  If the Scranton Peninsula could be developed and connected to TowerCity, I would be all for that plan. 

I would think that connecting the lakefront to the business district is a more pressing issue, especially under this administration.

 

KJP

I wonder if the Gund will be used in conjunction, or if it could be.

if they could figure out a way to include the arena as usable space it could make it a very large venue.

 

But since the Gund was not built with that purpose in mind, I wonder if it could be altered in any way.

I wonder if the Gund will be used in conjunction, or if it could be.

if they could figure out a way to include the arena as usable space it could make it a very large venue.

 

But since the Gund was not built with that purpose in mind, I wonder if it could be altered in any way.

 

Well Cleveland Browns Stadium has "event" space, which is why I like the idea of having the mall extended north over the tracks.  There isn't a reason why the Center can't be connected to CBS.

 

I'm just not a fan of the RATs idea as it take more people of the street and concentrates them in TowerCity.  It's a "win" for them but not an overall "win-win" as we try to adjust the mindset of Clevelanders to walk on city streets and truely develop a "round the clock city core".

I would think that connecting the lakefront to the business district is a more pressing issue, especially under this administration.

 

I agree. Also, why let the beautiful old convention center we already have go to waste? First let's revitalize what we already have -- then worry about building new. The city's economy isn't robust enough right now to justify this kind of speculative development.

Well isn't the whole point of the FC idea that it is going to be cheaper than the costs to renovate the existing site?  That's why they got back in, because their projected costs are lower even than some of the scaled back costs of the Mall site.

 

I have to wonder exactly what they lose if they have to rein in the costs so much.  Will all the perks of the lakefront site be lost, such as connection physically and visually of downtown to the lakefront (and Cleveland Browns Stadium as My Two Sense mentioned)?

 

To me this whole Convention Center business strikes me as a lot similar to the ECP.  I'm not really sure that it's absolutely necessary - the arguments against that have been brought up again and again (dwindling business, the I-X center, etc) are there, just like the arguments wondering why we need what might end up just being a glorified bus line on Euclid.  It's the extra things in both projects (connection to the lake and revitalized streetscapes, respectively) that seem to contribute to the benefits they bring.

Exactly. That's why I suggested doing something unique with the convention in my earlier message posted at:

 

http://www.urbanohio.com/forum2/index.php?topic=1782.msg46897#msg46897

 

I just think that downtown Cleveland needs something other than just a place for conventions and trade shows. It needs to think more creatively and responsively to the region's needs -- not try to compete with other, better-positioned cities in a nationally stagnant convention marketplace.

 

To me, this whole thing sounds like Cleveland officials saw what Pittsburgh has built, or what Cincinnati is building and said "I want one of those, too!" I had hoped they would have looked at their own facility and its environs and said, "what can we do to convert our convention center from a place where people around the nation come to meet, to one that's uniquely ours, where Clevelanders come to meet, collaborate, innovate and build a better community?"

 

That's the question they should be asking.

 

KJP

Those renderings are great, but I think that it would take up too much space on the lakefront.  I would rather have housing on the port's land.

 

 

 

I agree to a point, wimwar, I'd like as much lakefront freed up for housing as possible and, though I'm a life-long Browns lover who celebrated when we brought them back, I think putting that huge concrete, lake-blocking mausoleum dead in the middle of prime, high-density housing RE was a huuuuuge mistake.  That said, b/c the stadium's already in place (meaning, the cc is a complimentary use), because Wolstein is (let's hope) going forward w/ dense housing on his corner of the E. Bank, and finally, because the FORUM proposal appears close enough to link the existing center and keep beautiful, historic Public Hall viable, this proposal is not all bad...

 

... But TC, I think, has more advantages w/, like you said, the Rapid, hotels and Gateway.  What's unique about the TC area is that it's at the hub of our street grid and transit network, yet backs up against the no-man's land drop-off to the Flats -- facts which, to me, make this site ideal.  Cities tend to stick convention centers at the edges of downtown; those kind of backdoor areas where they can develop and make tax-producing land out of slums while beautifying the area simultaneously.  And the Scranton Rd/Flats area is a prime, decaying district that could use such rejuvenation.  Look at what Gateway did for that formerly unsightly, slummy corner of downtown at our backdoor. And, yes, KJP by all means could help in the effort to secure a Cuyahoga Valley Scenic Railroad terminal within this complex.

 

I just don't trust the intemperate Ratner/Millers.  I smell a rat.  As you've alluded, they must be ordering reelection-hungry Jane to jump with her responding: "How high?"

 

 

... one more thing, to show the unpredictability of the Ratners was the report last winter that, in trying to lure the county, FCM promised to tear out the TC Cinema and replace it with more parking.  I shuddered when I heard that.  Good old Cleveland: sacrifice a people/ped/transit friendly attraction like the Cinema for more space for autos!  Those theatres help make downtown a neighborhood and have become to the highly-successful Cleveland Film Festival in the spring. ... It's just one more reason to fear that these folks will pull the cc rug from under the City midway into preparation, if they don't exactly have their way....

 

... and I think we can all agree, the Miller/Ratners aren't doing all they could to beef up TC.  That PD Mag article on Columbus last weekend noted that, when Columbus lost it's mall anchor Lazarus, they replaced it with a science center.  It's appalling that FCM is letting our beautiful Higbees just sit there crumbling right in the center of town... It's a crime.

 

Why must everything be centered around TC???

 

the CC will suck more people/retail of the streets and not doing a thing to improve towercity.

 

Now if the ratners were serious, they would unite with all the property owners downtown to help recreate a retail hub in downtown.  Euclid, Prospect up to 14 street on the east; West 6 & West 9 to the west and Huron right down the middle.

 

This could then be used to get first rate national retailers onboard and bring back retail to downtown Cleveland.  This is a quality of life issue and need not a tourist "attraction".

 

 

I've been out of the loop since going to that meeting a couple weeks back, but I'm surprised to see all this talk about TC again because there was a movement at the last meeting to officially "lock in" the current site.  I don't know that it was officially passed, but it sounded like everyone was in agreement...concentrate, finally, on making one site work!  I have nothing additional to say that hasn't already been said here.  I agree that FC needs to make TC economically feasible without a mega-project to do it for them.  Concentrate on what makes retail work...residents!  The market for retail isn't there right now?  Build places for that market (residents) to live!  Like, say, on the Scranton Peninsula!  Again, nothing new here from me...

From the 9/14/05 PD:

 

 

Two convention center sites being evaluated

Wednesday, September 14, 2005

 

Potential sites for a downtown convention center have officially returned to two.

 

The Cleveland-Cuyahoga County Convention Facilities Authority voted unanimously Tuesday to reconsider a parcel behind Tower City Center along with the current mall site.

 

Forest City Enterprises pulled its site between Huron Road and the Cuyahoga River from consideration in June. But last week, the development company changed course after prompting by county officials.

 

More at http://www.cleveland.com/news/plaindealer/index.ssf?/base/cuyahoga/112669066183820.xml&coll=2

 

I've been out of the loop since going to that meeting a couple weeks back, but I'm surprised to see all this talk about TC again because there was a movement at the last meeting to officially "lock in" the current site.  I don't know that it was officially passed, but it sounded like everyone was in agreement...concentrate, finally, on making one site work!  I have nothing additional to say that hasn't already been said here.  I agree that FC needs to make TC economically feasible without a mega-project to do it for them.  Concentrate on what makes retail work...residents!  The market for retail isn't there right now?  Build places for that market (residents) to live!  Like, say, on the Scranton Peninsula!  Again, nothing new here from me...

 

Scranton?  Man they need to build ontop of the parking lots.  the lots that seperate TC from Sherwin Williams.  Get sherwin to move up to public square and build an ultra fabulous building on Huron that connect to the river.  This could be ONE an amazing address.

 

it would also connect gateway with the warehouse district and create street level energy

My brother works for Sherwin and they will never move.  That was thier original building, and they still do quite a bit of engineering there.

^it looks like an airport

 

I wish hopkins looked like this.

 

My brother works for Sherwin and they will never move.  That was thier original building, and they still do quite a bit of engineering there.

 

Plus, SW has one of the best kept riverfronts, that although private, actually makes this area look decent.  With all of the engineering and other tasks in that building, I'm not sure it would make sense to move it at all - although I'd like to see a section along the river opened up to the public.

My brother works for Sherwin and they will never move.  That was thier original building, and they still do quite a bit of engineering there.

 

Wishful thinking.  It's highly unlikely they'll ever move.  It's funny, I interned and temped as Sherwin "back in the day", the inside of that joint probably hasn't changed in 20 years.

Returning to two sites is just ludicrous...what kind of process is this when the vote to concentrate on one site and vote a month later to consider a site that has officially be withdrawn and then officially re-entered???  We'll be at this for another decade at this rate! 

I found this article about an October 6 convention symposium in the 9/20/05 PD:

 

 

Convention experts import ideas, vision to symposium in Cleveland

Tuesday, September 20, 2005

Sarah Hollander

Plain Dealer Reporter

 

When Cleveland opened Public Auditorium, the building was heralded as a modern marvel, a magnet for conventions and a template for other cities.

 

Now, more than 80 years later, Cleveland wants to return to the cutting edge.

 

The Convention Facilities Authority, the local group leading the charge to build a new or substantially renovated convention center downtown, has invited experts from around the country to Cleveland for a daylong symposium Oct. 6.

 

...

 

 

To reach this Plain Dealer reporter:

[email protected], 216-999-4816

 

http://www.cleveland.com/cuyahoga/plaindealer/index.ssf?/base/cuyahoga/1127208711165580.xml&coll=2

From today's Cool Cleveland:

 

Convention Center Meeting

The CFA will be holding a combination Planning/Community Consensus Committee meeting on Tue 10/18 at 6PM to encourage the public’s input on the two proposed convention center locations. View details on both sites at www.conventioncleveland.com. Laborers 310 Hall at 3250 Euclid Avenue, Lower Level.

Feedback from yesterday's meeting on www.cleveland.com.

 

No consensus on best site for new convention center

Wednesday, October 19, 2005

Sarah Hollander

Plain Dealer Reporter

 

Of the two locations being considered for a new Cleveland convention center, no clear favorite emerged from a public meeting Tuesday night.

 

The meeting, sponsored by the Cleveland-Cuyahoga County Convention Facilities Authority, marked the beginning of a ramped up effort to solicit public input. The group is developing a six-month calendar of meetings that will alternate between Cleveland and surrounding communities.

 

The authority eventually plans to recommend either the current convention center location at downtown's malls or Forest City's proposal, a 12-acre site between Tower City Center and the Cuyahoga River.

 

read the full article at http://www.cleveland.com/convention/index.ssf?/base/cuyahoga/112971428693510.xml&coll=2

 

I agree that public input is of critical importance, especially if a vote on tax referenda will determine the fate of this project.  But the whole process has been open to the public, whether the public has participated or not, so this is nothing new.  I'm just bewildered by the return of the Forest City site to this conversation and how they've been able to just enter in and depart at their own will, without providing anything substantial by way of progress in developing their site.  Correct me if I'm wrong, but preliminary studies on cost and design have been done for the Mall site, but have not been done yet for the FC site.  Why doesn't FC pay for these so we can see what it would ACTUALLY cost to build there, not just what they say it will cost. 

^Actually, I believe an architect/engineer from outside the convention center designs did do a cost comparison for the two seperate sites.

 

really?  I thought it was only done for the Mall site, since that was the only one left about two months ago.  I'd be interested to hear more about this...

I really wish we hadn't taken this step backwards.  And I really would doubt the wisdom of spending any further energy on a partner that has shown such a propensity for throwing little shitfits and walking away from the discussion.  What happens if we decide to go with them and they pull this crap again because they don't like someone's decision?

Somehow this eluded me until this morning...and now it's too late!  Anyone go to this?

 

** Open to the Public**

Joint Meeting of the City Planning Commission, the Design Review Committee and the Cleveland Landmarks Commission on:

Friday, November 11, 2005

9:00 AM to 11:00 AM

Cleveland Convention Center

500 Lakeside Avenue Room 212

(Enter through the arch on Lakeside Ave.)

 

Through various planning efforts, the Cleveland City Planning Commission has been assessing the need for new downtown meeting and exhibition facilities for more than a decade.  These efforts have focused on evaluating sites that can best accommodate a downtown convention center and complementing greater Cleveland’s existing base of hotels and visitor attractions that can enhance northeast Ohio as a major visitor destination throughout the 21st century.

 

Staff of the Planning Commission evaluated seven downtown sites and conducted four community meetings throughout Cuyahoga County that attracted almost 700 people in spring 2003.  Based on comments raised by the public and technical reviews of the seven convention center proposals, the Planning Commission passed a resolution in July 2003 that recommended two sites as appropriate for further consideration for new convention facilities in downtown Cleveland – the site of the existing Cleveland Convention Center at the Mall and a site integrated with the Tower City Center retail and office complex along the Cuyahoga River.

 

In May 2004, the Cuyahoga County Board of Commissioners appointed the Cleveland-Cuyahoga County Convention Facilities Authority (CFA) as allowed under laws of the State of Ohio for purposes of financing, constructing and operating a new convention center in the City of Cleveland. For more information about the CFA, visit its web site at www.conventioncleveland.com.

 

After reviewing previous reports about new convention facilities in Cleveland and alternative sites for it, the CFA determined that a new market assessment was needed in light of changing business travel patterns after the tragedies of September 11, 2001.  In early 2005, PricewaterhouseCoopers, leading industry experts, assessed future market demand at all existing convention facilities throughout the United States and determined that Cleveland’s current downtown convention center is not competitive with more updated, state-of-the-art convention centers built recently through the Midwest region.

 

To support greater Cleveland’s existing hospitality industry, the CFA determined that new convention facilities should be built in downtown with:

 

    * 300,000 square feet of exhibition space;

    * 100,000 square feet of meeting rooms, and

    * 35,000 square feet of ballrooms.

 

In June 2005, the Planning Commission reviewed two alternative layouts – the Mall West Block and the Mall Lakefront – for a contemporary convention center in downtown Cleveland at the Mall overlooking North Coast Harbor.  Prepared for the CFA, the plans for each of these alternatives meet the basic building program identified above as well the appropriate support spaces that are necessary for holding events at contemporary convention centers including registration lobbies, circulation corridors, loading docks and other areas for storage, kitchens and administrative offices.  An area for a 600-room headquarters hotel with 18,000 square feet of meeting rooms and 20,000 square feet of ballroom space is proposed to be adjacent to the proposed convention center’s main registration lobby with direct indoor access.

 

On July 1, 2005, the Planning Commission ratified a resolution approving the Mall between St. Clair Avenue and the NS freight railroad tracks and other surrounding properties west to Ontario Street (between St. Clair and Lakeside avenues) and north to Erieside Avenue (between Cleveland Browns Stadium and East 9th Street) to accommodate state-of-the-art meeting and exhibition facilities.

 

In September 2005, the CFA received a letter to once again place a site between the Tower City Center retail and office complex along the Cuyahoga River – the River Site – controlled by Forest City Commercial Group into consideration for downtown convention facilities.  On October 21, 2005, the City Planning Commission received a staff report of comparative site information for three sites:

 

    * River Site

    * Mall West Block Site

    * Mall Lakefront Site

 

The information provided includes site plans, floor plans, building sections and renderings for each site as well as descriptions of each site in terms of site size, current uses, proposed convention center layouts, urban context, major utilities, convention center functional/operational issues and transportation impacts/infrastructure modifications that may be useful as site selection for new convention facilities in downtown Cleveland proceed.

I'm sure you guys probably all know about this by now, but I'll post it for those who may have missed it.  From the 11/17/05 PD:

 

 

Convention site pick now expected early next year

Thursday, November 17, 2005

Sarah Hollander

Plain Dealer Reporter

 

The Convention Facilities Authority hopes to recommend one of two proposed sites for a new downtown convention center by early next year - a year later than originally anticipated.

   

...

 

 

To review the options and make comments via e-mail, go to www.conventioncleveland.com.

 

Plain Dealer reporter Tom Breckenridge contributed to this story.

 

http://www.cleveland.com/news/plaindealer/index.ssf?/base/cuyahoga/113222341985790.xml&coll=2

 

This is just the surface of this sort of finding as it relates to the FC site...their estimates should prove to be very low and the complexities of their site (shape, size, location) should add up to the current site being chosen...I seriously don't understand how FC's option has lasted this long!

Did anyone catch the article in Monday's Crain's Cleveland Business about the mayoral transition? In it, the article mentioned the possibility of a medical merchandise mart at the convention center, and noted that the city has had discussions with officials in Chicago about their Merchandise Mart and how to develop a specialized medical version here. But I don't have electronic access to the article, or I'd post it here.

From this weeks Crain's Cleveland

 

Mayoral report gives glimpse of city’s issues

Transition papers outline tasks ahead for Jackson administration

 

By JAY MILLER

 

6:00 am, December 12, 2005

 

The changing of the guard at Cleveland City Hall has produced rare snapshots of the issues facing the city and the opportunities for development that the incoming Jackson administration will encounter.

 

Thanks. I knew someone would come through!

What exactly would a "Medical Mart" be?  and why would we want one on one of our malls?

Wow, I haven't heard of some of this stuff. Could anyone provide background on the medical merchandise mart? Is that a space that already exists at the convention center site, or would it be new construction? Also, the Stonebridge Technology and Innovation Center -- I'm assuming that's related to the Stonebridge condos in some way, but what exactly is it?

The Merchandise Mart intrigued me so I found their website. www.merchandisemart.com even after the looking at the website I have absolutely no clue as to how medical products fit into this project. 500,000 is a huge space, so I am guessing that it will be new construction. That Technology and Innovation Center for Stonebridge sounds interesting. It would be great to see an office building over there instead of just condo's.

Merchandise marts usually show one type of trade show at a time.  for example the holiday  Xmas gift or toy  mart which shows at the "merchandise marts" in chicago, Dallas and Los Angeles.  These merchandise marts host"permanent" tenants (showrooms) that cannot be housed at a traditional convention center.  In addition, "marts" serve as an addition to the main convention center as they are usually located on or near that main convention center.

 

With Cleveland being the number one location for "medical" retreats, offsites and conventions I think this is smart to extend the reach of medical related events in the city.

Gotcha. Thanks for the explanation.

Cleveland, county consider Medical Mart' downtown

Sunday, December 18, 2005

Susan Vinella and Sarah Hollander

Plain Dealer Reporters

Cleveland and Cuyahoga County officials, with the support of Dr. Toby Cosgrove, president of the Cleveland Clinic, want to attract a year-round exhibition center for medical equipment and devices to downtown Cleveland.

 

...

I like this idea.  It's this kind of thinking and development that could make the investment in a new CC much more worthwhile and lucrative.  I hope something comes of it!

I agree. It makes the purpose of, and the public benefits from the convention center much clearer.

I agree with MGD & KJP that is sounds like a very unique and good idea.  But, I have a little bit of difficulty envisioning how this would fit into the current convention center plans.  Would it demand additional space?  According to the article, it would require a large amount of sq footage. 

If they go with the Mall site and the Lakefront option, then the Medical Mart would fit nicely on the current site of the County Admin, the office building, and the parking garage that are on the west side of Mall B.  Half-million square feet would make for a 4-ish story building, the right height (with high ceilings) to finish off the Group Plan.  It could be connected to, but outside of the Convention Center.

X, I think the Medical Mart would be much taller than that. The nearby Marriott at Key Center is only 385,000 square feet, and it's 25 stories. Granted, the ceiling heights would likely be greater at the medical mart, but consider all the different types of activities that could be offered at a medical mart, not just a huge showroom. I would also expect a lot of smaller meeting rooms, modest display areas and conference rooms to provide flexibility and affordibility for smaller and new-start medical and tech supplier organizations. Plus, I would expect audio-visual support areas, back-office functions etc. etc.

can these threads be merged?? 

 

Also the medical mart will house PERMANENT COLLECTIONS/SHOWROOMS  :clap:

KJP, the site I am talking about is approximately 160,000 sq. ft. (I measured the site using Google Earth)  So 500,000 sq ft/160,000 sq ft= 3.12.  So it could be as few as 3 stories if they go slightly smaller than 500,000 sq ft.  Or they could use slightly less of the site for the Medical Mart, or have an atrium or courtyard, and go for 4 stories.

 

I am also assuming all the ancilliary uses you mentioned are included in the 500,000 sq ft.