Just reading about the continuing fallout in the airline industry these last few weeks and with the prospect of airline industry consolidation once again on the front page, plus we have movement at the state level on rail -- I'll ask the question again. Shouldn't the connection to a future rail station (Ohio hub?) on the lakefront be a key factor in siting this thing? Wouldn't that sort of direct connection set Cleveland's facility apart for regional trade shows/events?

With the right designer, maybe these huge, floating pieces of equipment (the truck docks) become the image of the building.  If done correctly it could almost evoke images of the frozen industrial infrastructure of the city; the Jackknife bridges, the Hulletts, shuttered steel mill structures, etc.  It could be very powerful. 

is that the imagery we want visitors to come away with of our city?

Shuttered steel mills, maybe not - but something inspired by views like this might work:

 

I agree that good design could help, but really... that's not the problem. The problem is the site.  There's too much of a dropoff in the bank, not to mention not enough room between Huron Road and the bank.  Actually, the initial site plan for tower city called for two slim towers to be built out on each end of tower city on the banks (I have actually seen these renderings and site plans)... They actually realized a version of the first one of these in the courthouse tower.  The other one was supposed to go on the banks by Huron and Ontario.  Now of course they are just trying to develop it so they plug for the CC.  The problem is of that the site is simply too narrow for the NEEDS of a CC.  The floorplates need to be too big.  That's while they are all dumb boxes.  You just need HUGE, OPEN spaces.  Take the Pittsburgh CC for instance.  Actually I think one of the better looking ones around.  If you were to take that CC and drop it on this site (and both are obviously river banks) that CC would come out all the way across the cuyahoga practically to Scranton Peninsula.  Not to mention that if it were to start at street level the thing would look like a disc hanging half jammed into tower city, and there would be stilts in the middle of the river where barges go.  That is why, the initial plans for ours on this location have it crammed up against tower city with big hulking boxes extending OVER Huron.  Another point of fact is that more often than not with publicly financed projects you just aren't going to get top notch architecture.  It's just the way it is. That is why the vast majority of CC's are big boxes... and this happens to be a horrible, horrible location to put a big box.

I'm not a convention expert, but if there's two major gripes I always tend to see its 1) gross space and 2) continuous space.

 

I agree with McCleveland here, there's just no way to gerrymander a large amount of continuous space on the back of TC (unless they go out to Scranton?)

^Exactly, so their solution to this was to abut it against TC and go over Huron Road which is awful.  And if they extend out into the river, how is it supported? And how much does this engineering marvel to the world cost?  Not to mention FC would like to give us the taxpayers the priveledge of figuring out these very complex issues for the mere price of 40 million dollars.

 

Meanwhile 3 blocks North you have a space that already has pretty much all infastructure work complete, an already figured out affordable way to remove all columns inside the existing structure while adding a Northern portion that offers sweeping views of the lake and North Coast Harbour, creating "skylights" on the malls that not only allow natural light in the space but change the landscape of the malls and allow you to look in on seas of people at conventions, direct access from light and commuter rail... The county is willing to give their space (and maybe someone can take them and lock them in a room at the bottom of the courthouse with Bob Stark until these two fools realize they need eachother to achieve what they both want), which rids one of the ugliest conglomerate of buildings downtown, and replaces them with something potentially way more "iconic" than the FC site in the form of some new hotel tower and potentially the medical mart itself.... Oh... and this space costs us nothing. We already own it.

 

Which is why I can't wait for them to explain why they've selected the TC site... neat.

What about expanding north east into Tower City?

Oh... and this space costs us nothing. We already own it.

 

Does the county own the southern part of the block west of Mall B?  I didn't think it did.  No doubt cheaper than $40M, but not exactly free either.  I still prefer the Mall site though.

 

EDIT: I guess the block west of Mall B isn't really essential to some of the Mall schemes, so I guess this is a problem for future hotel developers, not the county.

^I think the buildings there are county buildings, at least some of them.

 

I can't imagine any part of the group plan being sold to private developers over the years

Those are definitely the current county buildings (at least some of them, the county employees are scattered which is why they wanted a new headquarters to begin with).  When the mall site was first selected the plan was for them to vacate the buildings (into the ameritrust complex) and they would then just become part of the mall site.

 

http://planning.city.cleveland.oh.us/convention/imageDetail.php?ID=mwb&pageNum_Rimages=8

 

 

^ I don't buy that.  CC may just be built at TC because TC is the better site, period.

 

and i don't buy that logic.

 

it wasn't the better back in the first place when the current cc was built, nor was it deemed better more recently by the mayor jane era study, so why is is it "the better site, period" now?

 

mccleveland is making some compelling remarks about the practicality of strong-arming a cc in back there vs. using what is already in place. it wouldnt even seem to work out well at all without the benefit of some uber creative architectural pyrotechnics. the gubmint is rarely up for that.

 

Those are definitely the current county buildings (at least some of them, the county employees are scattered which is why they wanted a new headquarters to begin with).  When the mall site was first selected the plan was for them to vacate the buildings (into the ameritrust complex) and they would then just become part of the mall site.

 

http://planning.city.cleveland.oh.us/convention/imageDetail.php?ID=mwb&pageNum_Rimages=8

 

 

That's the scheme I had in mind when thinking about the block west of the Mall.  Per the county auditor site, however, the County does not own the lots along St. Clair (roughly 1/3 of the whole block), some of which were transferred in '06 for $4.5 M.  All to say, that land won't all be free.

I agree with McCleveland that the TC site has physical limitations, but this mistake has been made by architects and planners of many kinds of venues around the country.

 

What bothers me more is the four historic theatres that comprise the Public Hall complex.  These are treasures, and with minimal rehab could become key components of the new convention center on the old site, quite unlike any other convention complex in the country. 

 

Instead, we debate the politicians pants-dropping for a developer to get some construction workers eating at his food court during the initial phases.  Once the doors open, all bets are off and nothing, save a overall economic boom for the region, will improve Tower City's traffic. 

With the right designer, maybe these huge, floating pieces of equipment (the truck docks) become the image of the building.  If done correctly it could almost evoke images of the frozen industrial infrastructure of the city; the Jackknife bridges, the Hulletts, shuttered steel mill structures, etc.  It could be very powerful. 

 

Better yet, let's all push ODOT for a signature bridge for the innerbelt!  If Toledo can have one, so can we! 

^ yeah. seriously, that is effort better placed.

 

cleveland already has a very creative convention center downtown, it just needs modernized.

With the right designer, maybe these huge, floating pieces of equipment (the truck docks) become the image of the building.  If done correctly it could almost evoke images of the frozen industrial infrastructure of the city; the Jackknife bridges, the Hulletts, shuttered steel mill structures, etc.  It could be very powerful. 

 

Better yet, let's all push ODOT for a signature bridge for the innerbelt!   If Toledo can have one, so can we! 

 

It's going to be a while. ODOT is out of money for new construction, but we can discuss this more at the Inner Belt thread in the transportation section.

Those are definitely the current county buildings (at least some of them, the county employees are scattered which is why they wanted a new headquarters to begin with).  When the mall site was first selected the plan was for them to vacate the buildings (into the ameritrust complex) and they would then just become part of the mall site.

 

http://planning.city.cleveland.oh.us/convention/imageDetail.php?ID=mwb&pageNum_Rimages=8

 

 

That's the scheme I had in mind when thinking about the block west of the Mall.  Per the county auditor site, however, the County does not own the lots along St. Clair (roughly 1/3 of the whole block), some of which were transferred in '06 for $4.5 M.  All to say, that land won't all be free.

 

Strap:

 

  You are correct, I had a conversation about this with a "city type" this morning.  The building on the southern end of that block is not county owned at all (though ugly enough to look county owned).  So yes, it is not free.  Though he said their original proposal for this site include expenses of acquiring that property.  And I think it's safe to say that acquiring that property will be SIGNIFICANTLY less expensive than the 40 million dollar "air rights" to the river site AND the cost of engineering and constructing the infastructure (which no one has any idea of how to do).  But you're right, it's not free.

^Totally agree.  Especially with the "though ugly enough to look county owned"- that is one heinous beast that needs to be put down- it would be money well spent.

 

Thinking of discussing anything other than the Cleveland Convention Center or Medical Mart?

 

 

^Totally agree.  Especially with the "though ugly enough to look county owned"- that is one heinous beast that needs to be put down- it would be money well spent.

 

Which building is this? Is that the roughly 8-story building put up in 1985 for Chicago Title Insurance? If so, I don't think the building is THAT ugly. I wonder if it could be rebuilt with a new facade? But the parking deck just west of it at St. Clair and Ontario is ugly and a half. That's gotta go.

if they choose the west block plan, that whole block gets redeveloped.

^Totally agree.  Especially with the "though ugly enough to look county owned"- that is one heinous beast that needs to be put down- it would be money well spent.

 

Which building is this? Is that the roughly 8-story building put up in 1985 for Chicago Title Insurance? If so, I don't think the building is THAT ugly. I wonder if it could be rebuilt with a new facade? But the parking deck just west of it at St. Clair and Ontario is ugly and a half. That's gotta go.

 

Yeah, that's the one.  Now that look at it again (thank you google maps streetview), it's not quite as bad as I remember.  Won't miss it at all though if it comes down- a new full-block mega hotel development will look a lot better.

When does the site selection committee make its' recomendation?

I'm not sure how this affects Stark's plans, but the Pesht site is now back in consideration for the Medical Mart:

 

Cuyahoga County adds fourth site to consideration for Medical Mart and Convention Center

Posted by Steven Litt/Plain Dealer Architecture Critic

May 02, 2008 18:28PM

 

Cuyahoga County has added a fourth site to a list of possible locations for a new medical mart and convention center in downtown Cleveland.

 

County Commissioner Peter Lawson Jones said Friday that he and Commissioners Tim Hagan and Jimmy Dimora want to look at the largely vacant land in the Warehouse District from the northwest corner of Public Square west to West Sixth Street, and from Superior Avenue on the south to St. Clair Avenue on the north...

 

 

http://blog.cleveland.com/architecture/2008/05/cuyahoga_county_adds_fourth_si.html#more

 

---

 

The overhead bridge idea is unnecessary.  In case Comish Jones didn't notice, to the east of this site (Public Square to E 9th) Superior is now only 4 lanes wide (2 car, 2bus only) and a traffic study would likely prove that Superior could easily be narrowed in this stretch so that pedestrians can easily cross the street.  To the west of this site, the Detroit Superior Bridge had it's number of lanes reduced just a few years ago as well.  The only reason that Superior is so wide here is because it used to have a ramp down underneath to let the streetcars enter the subway underneath the bridge, that they later filled in and paved.  The excessive width of 7 lanes is NOT because Superior ever needed that much width for traffic capacity reasons.  Crossing Superior in this stretch could be made as easy as crossing from the Arcade to E 4th street on Euclid (well, without the construction).

I know those two idiot commissioners had something to do with this.  They are trying to tie this into TC somehow.

 

THIS SHOULD GO BENEATH THE MALL.  PERIOD!

DAMMIT!!  We should be PAST this point by now!!  Why is there still a question of which TWO sites that should be under consideration?  Those two sites were chosen a LONG time ago!!  I guess with Cuyahoga politics, the old saying is true... one step forward...

Pretty much.  I would have thought the County Admin building would be build in Pesht, this way they could be the anchor tenant.  If thats not what CC wants to do then, CC needs to pick a vacant lot downtown and get busy building.  Hell build a top the Halle Garage.  ugh!

 

Personally, I want the new CC on the curent site.

Wow, brilliant. Put a giant, lifeless building right on top of downtown's only hub of activity.

 

 

Wow, brilliant. Put a giant, lifeless building right on top of downtown's only hub of activity.

 

 

jamiec, I'm not sure what you mean?  Currently those are parking lots.

I don't see being able to cram a convention center in that area without creating a super-block. Look how much space Columbus' takes up. Then notice the vacuum effect of pedestrians around it. I could foresee fitting the smaller footprint of the medical mart in the WHD, if the intent was to split the two facilities.

Pope, that could work. 

• The Merch Mart in Pesht as the anchor tenant.
  
• Tear the current admin building and put a convention sized hotel there.
  
• Rebuild the new CC in the current space.
  
• Refurbish Public Hall/Music Hall.
  

 

 

Wow, brilliant. Put a giant, lifeless building right on top of downtown's only hub of activity.

 

 

jamiec, I'm not sure what you mean?  Currently those are parking lots.

 

But would they be better as actually mixed-use buildings?

Wow, brilliant. Put a giant, lifeless building right on top of downtown's only hub of activity.

 

 

jamiec, I'm not sure what you mean?  Currently those are parking lots.

 

But would they be better as actually mixed-use buildings?

 

Yes, but you said they are a "hub of activity"?  Or do you mean that there is a lot of potential for those blocks?

How about the Merchandise Mart on the ground floor of a Jacobs skyscraper topped by a convention-sized hotel? Then put an underground walkway between it, Tower City Center, Marriott/Key and a redeveloped Convention Center with multiple street access points.

How about the Merchandise Mart on the ground floor of a Jacobs skyscraper topped by a convention-sized hotel? Then put an underground walkway between it, Tower City Center, Marriott/Key and a redeveloped Convention Center with multiple street access points.

 

Based on other "marts" I've been in, I think the Mart would need more continuous floor space than one floor of a sky scrapper can offer.

Good point. Using the "measure" feature on Google Earth, each floorplate at the Jacobs site could offer up to 50,000 square feet. Don't know if that's enough though.

You couldn't be more right about the Columbus CC.

 

It creates a horrendous void in an area that should be lined with storefronts.

 

I don't see being able to cram a convention center in that area without creating a super-block. Look how much space Columbus' takes up. Then notice the vacuum effect of pedestrians around it. I could foresee fitting the smaller footprint of the medical mart in the WHD, if the intent was to split the two facilities.

  Sometimes it amazes me how much political influence FCE still has around here... I mean for a company that has done almost nothing for the city I'm not sure I really understand why we are always bending over backwards to accomodate them.  I had heard forever ago that it was  done deal on the Tower City site.  I guess they just finally figured out it's almost impossible to put a CC behind TC so now they're just finding another way to make FCE happy.  This is just insane.  The existing site is just so clearly superior, and this makes such little sense... But they'll find a way to do it.  And they'll find a way to build their bridge so that it's "linked" with TC.  Barf.

 

  And can someone please explain to me why people are so eager to force out of towners to see tower city?  Is that really the image of our city we want to show off?  "Hey doctors and conventioneers, come check out our half dead mall, with places like the dollar store and the airbrush t-shirt shop!"

 

Neat.

^yes, but its safe from all the hoodlums with the "parental involvement program"

mccleveland...the thought at least si that those dollar stores and airbrush tshirt shops will go the way of the dodo once the project is up and running.

"Three other sites are under consideration, including the existing convention center beneath the downtown Mall, the Cuyahoga riverfront behind Tower City Center and the lakefront west of Browns Stadium."

 

Why is the lakefront west of the stadium even in the discussions.  By far the worst choice of the four.  I guess the public will have to have a strong objection to the WHD site at the public meetings..

Tower City is doing better than many other malls in this area, most of which have Dollar Stores too.

Tower City is doing better than many other malls in this area, most of which have Dollar Stores too.

 

Let it be know, Dollar Stores are common at almost any mall nationwide.  So having a dollar store in your mall or (an extention) is just a change in times, even people with upscale budgets will shop in a dollar store.

Somehow I don't see Beachwood Place opening a Dollar Tree.

Somehow I don't see Beachwood Place opening a Dollar Tree.

 

Let me rephrase, Dollar stores(or whatever the regional name is) are common in malls accross america.  I've been to some foo-foo malls and seen a dollar store.  It's not as uncommon as you would think.

I always find it annoying when I click on a thread about the CC and read ablout Dollar stores.....

 

Anyhow, I am all for the WHD plan for the MM and CC.  I think it is our best shot at infusing life in to the parking lots at this time.  This is gioven the info we got about Earnst and Young this morning and the struggling housing market.

ok..what life, please explain? 

 

So losing streets with no street level retail will do what for the area?

 

Is that footprint large enough for continuous floor space?

Where in sam hell will the loading docks be located?

How will it impact current business and residents? with trash, noise, cabs, and quality of life issues.

I really don't understand where this is coming from all of a sudden.  Was it not the case that this site was rejected years ago because it was too small and because the property owners in the warehouse district vigoursly objected to such a hulking mass overshadowing their businesses. 

 

As far as the lakefront site (next to the stadium) is concerned, I believe the reason this keeps coming up now is because the commissioners are currently leading the charge (rather than the city in the past) and this was always the favorite site of Jimmy Dimora (in fact I think he was the one who proposed it originally way back when). 

Dimora is a new kind of old idiot!