I like the idea of Convo Center also. Ask one of the commissioners to put it up for consideration.

 

Also, in other convention news:

 

http://www.nme.com/news/neds-atomic-dustbin/36542

^To me who routinely walks a minimum of a mile on my lunch hour, it's fine. To Joe Conventioneer, not so much. But then again if they build a convention-sized hotel on site so the timid types never have to leave, that'd probably work.

 

That's very true- surely a new hotel would have to be built as part of the project.  But if a main entry is provided near 14th and Prospect, we're talking just one block from PHS and several small hotels less than half a mile away.  This could certainly help jumpstart the restaurant scene near PHS (the western side of downtown doesn't seem to need much help).

I say put one or two hotels with a shared parking deck in the litle bumpout on the south side of carnegie.  A nice tower there would have wonderful downtown city views.

 

Also a tower on the corner of 18 could do wonders.

I still like the Mall site better, for reasons of transit/potential rail access, connectivity to the lakefront, it's hidden underground, the city already owns it, future expansion ability, and the potential to renovate and invigorate Public Hall/Music Hall. Did I miss anything?

 

Wait a second, isn't this MTS' spiel? :-D

I still like the Mall site better, for reasons of transit/potential rail access, connectivity to the lakefront, it's hidden underground, the city already owns it, future expansion ability, and the potential to renovate and invigorate Public Hall/Music Hall. Did I miss anything?

 

Wait a second, isn't this MTS' spiel? :-D

 

I do love the Mall it's the only realistic choice. 

 

The convocation center is just "wishful thinking" and I don't think its large enough for our cities needs and above ground we still have the same problem loading docs, etc.

Medical Mart could help complete Cleveland's downtown Mall

Posted by Steven Litt/Plain Dealer Architecture Critic

May 16, 2008 11:52AM

 

Cleveland's downtown Mall, envisioned at the turn of the 20th century by architect Daniel Burnham of Chicago, is one of the city's biggest unfinished projects.

 

Now, however, a pair of architecture firms from Cleveland and Seattle have come up with the perfect way to complete Burnham's vision: Put the proposed new Medical Mart on the west side of the Mall, next to a rebuilt convention center underneath the Mall itself...

 

more at: http://www.cleveland.com/medicalmart/

Hopefully the County building would be leveled as well.

 

Also, Litt makes no mention of a new hotel.  The rendering of this concept that I have seen in Mayday's project rundown seems to have a hotel attached to the south side of the MM.  Of course, the Marriot is already right there. 

I, personally, am so in favor of this site over any others. I just think it has so many positives, and, in my opinion, far more than any of the other sites. The only thing is that it isn't directly connected to transit and Tower City, but it's not even THAT far from either. I would rather see the current site used for something like this because I'd hate to see that site left as a hulking, empty site, needing to wait for a developer to purchase it and redevelop it into something else. I don't think it makes sense to taxpayers, who are footing the bill, and I think it would leave a really bad taste in their mouths if it's just left empty.

 

Does anyone know anything about the cost estimates about the varying sites, in terms of what it would cost to build what is needed for the whole project? Or has that bridge not been crossed yet?

The only thing is that it isn't directly connected to transit and Tower City, but it's not even THAT far from either.

 

Not to beat a dead horse here, but you're exactly right.  Forest City needs to cut the crap about how it is located so close to Tower City and the Mall is SO far away.  It's just a couple of blocks.  Are we planning on only bringing in conventions for people with broken legs incapable of walking a couple of blocks?  Anybody actually pushing that argument as legitimet deserves to be punched in the face by every single person on this board. 

Anybody actually pushing that argument as legitimet deserves to be punched in the face by every single person on this board. 

 

Ow. Look out, naysayers. :)

 

I really really hope that the commissioners/planning committee make a wise choice here. I really don't wanna see this thing get plopped in some god-forsaken spot just because a developer is strong arming the process.

Anybody actually pushing that argument as legitimet deserves to be punched in the face by every single person on this board. 

 

Ow. Look out, naysayers. :)

 

Hey, some of these people just have it coming. :whip:

I'll be happy when they make the announcement on the site selection next month so this issue can be put to rest once and for all.

The only thing is that it isn't directly connected to transit and Tower City, but it's not even THAT far from either.

 

Not to beat a dead horse here, but you're exactly right.  Forest City needs to cut the crap about how it is located so close to Tower City and the Mall is SO far away.  It's just a couple of blocks.  Are we planning on only bringing in conventions for people with broken legs incapable of walking a couple of blocks?  Anybody actually pushing that argument as legitimet deserves to be punched in the face by every single person on this board. 

 

Meet you out back.

The only thing is that it isn't directly connected to transit and Tower City, but it's not even THAT far from either.

 

Not to beat a dead horse here, but you're exactly right.  Forest City needs to cut the crap about how it is located so close to Tower City and the Mall is SO far away.  It's just a couple of blocks.  Are we planning on only bringing in conventions for people with broken legs incapable of walking a couple of blocks?  Anybody actually pushing that argument as legitimet deserves to be punched in the face by every single person on this board. 

 

I totally agree - isn't the point of building this big new convention center to attract big medical (and other industry) conventions???  Does anyone think that these hundreds and even thousands of attendees, vendors, etc. can all fit in the Renaissance and the Ritz?  No matter where the convention center is built, there will be attendees spread over multiple hotels downtown and they will not be directly connected to the new building wherever it is.

 

For example, Internal Medicine 2008 is currently going on in Washington DC with over 6000 physicians attending.  There are blocks of rooms reserved at 27 hotels, and there are 7 different shuttle routes running between hotels and the convention center.  While this is certainly one of the largest annual medical conventions, even the smaller specialties will have hundreds of attendees plus vendors and support staff, and they will undoubtedly have shuttles from the further away hotels to the convention space.

 

http://www.acponline.org/meetings/internal_medicine/2008/shuttle_schedule.pdf

 

 

Sorry, clvlndr.  That wasn't directed at you.  You've listed all your reasons on here plenty of times.  I used to be on your side of the fence but have since changed my mind and I completely respect your opinion.  I just get annoyed with this tired argument that the Mall is too far from public transportation.  I don't know how to make the point any more lucid.  The Mall is not some isolated island that will stop people from taking the rapid from the airport. 

 

Buckeye1, I totally agree.  I was just in Minneapolis for a convention about a month ago and most of the people I knew we're staying at least four or five blocks from the convention center anyways.  I stayed in a hotel nine blocks away, and there were plenty of people from the same convention staying in my hotel.  If we're going to have a convention center, then people are going to have to walk a little anyways.  There is no point in sacrificing the better site (IMO) just to prevent people from having to walk for a couple of blocks. 

Look at Forest City dangling the carrots....  In this weeks Crains.  Dont have a subscription so....

 

Offer to med mart: $1 a year

Forest City Enterprises Inc. is offering 200,000 square feet in downtown Cleveland's Higbee Building for the medical mart at a lease rate of $1 a year.

 

Offer to med mart: $1 a year

Big project's cost prompts look at new site as Forest City pitches cheap lease

By JAY MILLER

May 19, 2008

 

 

 

Anxiety about rising costs is slowing a decision on where to locate a new convention center and medical merchandise mart and is bringing another potential site into play: underused land at East 55th Street and Chester Avenue.

 

It's also motivating real estate giant Forest City Enterprises Inc. to offer 200,000 square feet in downtown Cleveland's Higbee Building for the medical mart at a lease rate of $1 a year.

 

While Cuyahoga County commissioners have kept their distance from the site selection negotiations, Commissioner Tim Hagan said last week he's hearing that cost estimates are rising significantly beyond the original budget of between $350 million and $400 million...

 

More at: http://www.crainscleveland.com

 

 

Group considers new site for convention center

 

Posted by Sarah Hollander May 19, 2008 15:30PM

Categories: Breaking News

 

Another potential site is being considered for Cleveland's proposed convention center and Medical Mart -- East 55th Street and Chester Avenue.

 

more at: http://www.cleveland.com/medicalmart/

^Why didn't they update the numbers before they determined the size of the tax increase??  This is becoming a train wreck.

^I was thinking the exact same thing.  These people are doing their best to ruin one of the easiest opportunities to ever drop in our laps.

Let me guess... 1919 E 55 would be the attached hotel? :|

 

Since even the commissioners are just throwing spaghetti against the wall at this point, how about Scranton Penninsula for the CC with a hotel and the MM on the site directly behind TC?.... all this connected with walkways of course.

 

Is Scranton even a legitimate option for a building of that size?

 

My official vote still remains for the current site with the MM and hotel on Ontario but the chances of that happening seem to be dwindling rapidly.

 

I say either keep it close to downtown (even if it is too expensive to put it in the CBD) or more toward UC despite the apparently undesired positive impact it would have on Cle Hts.... (Hagan cannot truly believe that the conventioners would wander away from UC to spend money in EC).  Bottom line is we need to showcase our City to these visitors better than E 55 and Chester.... something that will make them want to come back.  The areas in the immediate proximity of UC and downtown are the only options that do the trick IMHO.

I know that most will be upset about this new proposed location, but I fully support it. I have always hoped for some major development between downtown and UC/CC. Now if this happens, we'd have that missing link.

Bizbiz, I wish I shared your optimism, but watching this thing unfold is like watching a car wreck in slow motion. 

This is ridiculous.

 

WTF is going on with this thing?

I know that most will be upset about this new proposed location, but I fully support it. I have always hoped for some major development between downtown and UC/CC. Now if this happens, we'd have that missing link.

 

The problem is that a convention center at E. 55 would not be a connected link at all. It would be floating in a disconnected area. This would not support any investments that have already been made. It would not support any new investments other than a new restaurant or two. We would be showing our ugliest side to visitors. For god's sakes, there are projects immediately adjacent to this site. We story are we trying to tell to the rest of the country with this site??  Welcome to Flint 2.0??

Yeah.

 

This whole incentive that FC is tossing out now makes me worried, too, as a fan of the current site.

 

What's the deadline for the decision on this thing already?

E55 and Chester.  They've gotta be kidding!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

CHESTER AND E. 55 th GREAT THINKING

 

OK, you have thrown out all of the negative. I can definitely see that most of you never lived in major East Coast cities. (NYC, DC, Philadelphia, Boston)    Each of these cities have tons of negatives, yet constantly think forward.    They build in neighborhoods that are in reach of everything, yet expanding into neighborhoods that are abandoned and in need of major overhaul.   

 

In Washington DC, they built their stadium in desolate, SE. Now i see 16 cranes as i drive by. 16 cranes, the best vision for a urban renewal enthusiast. No, Cleveland is not DC, but this was the poorest, ugliest section of town!

 

Look at Chicago, it build McCormick on the South side. 

Boston on the edge of a ghetto built it's new convention center.

 

 

Pluses about 55 and Chester

 

1. Situated perfectly between Downtown and UC

2. Low density population center. No one lives around there!!!! So, there really isn't a population to seriously contend with.

3. It needs development to really make a true Midtown neighborhood.

4. It is a street away from Euclid.

5 It will trigger even more development of headquarters along both Chester and Euclid.

6. It will clean up the streetscape of Chester and make it a true expressway.

7. Future upscale housing and condo for blocks!

8 You can now see  the expansion of Euclid and downtown, like in Atlanta, Dallas and St. Louis, all of which have thriving midtowns.   

9. Hotels will come with Convention Center and so will restaurants.

10. With so much open land, how about dorms for CSU and a Professional League Soccer Stadium.

 

Dreaming, but damn, people think that Cleveland is so dangerous and bad. Have you seen, NYC, Philadelphia, Houston, Chicago, and Detroit? They are all scarier than big bad Cleveland.

 

E. 55th/Midtown    Build it now, or be happy with a Cleveland 1sq mile in size, because that is the only development location you can see, downtown.

Whack thud, Tarblood!  Welcome to the forum, Glenville!

Glenville, you obviously aren't very familiar with UO.  If you were, you would know that there are threads about developments all over the city including Chester, Euclid Avenue, Detroit Shoreway, and various neighborhoods throughout the city such as Ohio City and Tremont.  This website is dedicated to Cleveland as a whole (we even have threads to discuss the suburbs).  Please familiarize yourself with this site and what people actually talk about it on it before you start attacking people here. 

^I just read that and it realized it sounded a lot harsher than I wanted it to.  Welcome to the forum Glenville, but please look around.  We do care about developments all over the city. 

Part of me would really love to see this development here on E55th. I would love to see Midtown built up. But would the city benefit from bringing the MM and CC out here?

 

I dunno.

If the Red Line from the airport ran through to the Euclid Corridor busway (or vice-versa), then I would be more supportive of putting a large public facility like the CC/MM here. Then again, there is a way a regional passenger rail could link much of the metro area to the East 55th/Euclid/Chester area.

I didn't like the Chester locale when I first heard it; but, the more I think about it, it's starting to grow on me a little more.  I travel this area quite often and would love to see some development between downtown and UC, and E 55th and Chester is pretty much the center point between the two. 

 

I still prefer a downtown site; however, I'm not totally opposed to a Midtown location.

I don't think that we should be counting on this convention center to be the sole source of business for new hotels and restaurants. If we put it at E.55th, there will be virtually no sustainable spin off development.

^Agreed.  I know there have been some examples thrown around of other cities building away from the central core that have been successful... but that's because they had no choice.  There was nowhere to build in their downtowns and they had outwardly expanding cities.  Harsh reality is that we don't, we've got some nice momentum going but we are nowhere near the "expansion" phase.  And taking this out of downtown actually hurts the progress taking place there.  In addition, putting this thing at east 55th and chester is like putting it on an island.  As 3231 indicates a convention center alone is not going to be enough business to support the spinoff development required.  We're talking about 52 conventions a year tops.  That's one a week for a couple days.  Those places wouldn't stand a chance.  Plus wasn't the whole idea of this thing to spur the service sector downtown?  To make it more lively?  If we aren't doing that... honestly, why are we wasting our money?

...and Glenville's example of Washington,DC's new convention center is a little different in that it is on the edge of a booming downtown, and like McCleveland said, with no other options, as well as being basically across from the old one (there are numerous hotels already within a block or 2 as well as competing proposals that were already in the works for the vacant land near there.  It is also right at a metro stop which they were able to incorporate an entrance right at the convention center.  Also in Clevelands case, the large investment should be used to help add much needed vitality downtown.  DC already has this to the extreme, and frankly needs to spread things around a bit.

 

Now Im worried that they will throw out the current site since it is estimated to be above the 400 million limit (even though the tax raises considerably more than that).  I think it would still be worth it compared to spending less in some of the other areas.  The current site still shouldnt require much land acquisition, if any. 

 

Why do you think the architects are proposing to tear down the buildings at St. Clair and leaving the county buildings as opposed to tearing down the county buildings.  (maybe because they wont be moving any time soon)       

We have seen large projects succeed and fail downtown. Projects with hotels and adequate transit accessibility: (Galleria, Tower City, The Flats)  We have a vast amount of construction planned for these areas currently. Now let's think about how far 55th and Chester is from downtown. It is not far at all. Downtown Cleveland can literally expand down Euclid and Chester by way of the Convention Center. The Convention Center, Medical Mart, hotel, new restaurants should be built with a plan to link 40th to 55th. 36th to 40 is the next series of blocks, then you are already into the CSU area. The furthest extent should be 55th all other development going towards downtown.  I love Atlanta's development along Peachtree; it links downtown ATL with  with Midtown. 

Link One

http://www.atlantamodels.net/imagelib/sitebuilder/misc/show_image.html?linkedwidth=actual&linkpath=http://www.atlantamodels.net/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/atlanta-ptree-triangle-fs.jpg&target=tlx_new

 

Link one, notice how Atlanta is expanding into virtually another downtown. Cleveland is not ready for that, but must look to the futue with a plan to totally link University Circle(cultural uptown) and downtown along Euclid, our backbone.

 

Link 2

http://www.atlantamodels.net/imagelib/sitebuilder/misc/show_image.html?linkedwidth=actual&linkpath=http://www.atlantamodels.net/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/glg-midtown-fs.jpg&target=tlx_new

 

Link 2 to shows the plans for midtown!!!  Go ATL, if they get half of it accomplished, great job!

I think the E55th location is absurd for all the reasons stated above by others.  The only way I could have have supported a Convention Center in Midtown if it were built on Euclid, close to the Clinic, where there might be enough other economic activity not to embarrass us in the face of visitors and to support some real spin-off potential.  But even then, I would have supported it only if it were part of a realistic master plan to densify that end of the corridor- which just ain't gonna happen unless the Clinic is willing to knock down Cole EI or the Walker Tower and the Ronald McDonald House is willing to sell to a hotel.

 

Oh, and Glenville, many of us have indeed lived (or still live) in big cities around the country.  You mention NYC: the area around Javitz is a total wreck- rail yards and truck parking.  Even there a giant convention center did little to transform an underused industrial area.

Oh for crying out loud... "Council wants to make sure the project does not hurt the IX Center and that city workers at the present convention center are protected." - must every bloody institution and organization be "protected" to get this sh!t moving? God forbid anything be done without making sure every squawking group is appeased! :roll:

 

From wkyc.com:

 

County commissioner proposes possible Medical Mart site

http://www.wkyc.com/news/news_print.asp?id=89866

 

Marc Magill

POSTED: Monday, May 19, 2008 10:03:39 PM

UPDATED: Tuesday, May 20, 2008 10:12:15 AM

 

CLEVELAND -- One county commissioner is proposing a new possible site for the Medical Mart.

 

Tim Hagan fears rising construction costs may make the project price tag higher than the $400 million available.

 

Now, a committee is going to check out the corner of East 55th Street and Chester Avenue. Council members got briefed on the deal and sites.

 

Negotiator Fred Nance downplayed the buzz.

 

The Forest City site behind Tower City looks to be a lock because they're offering a $1 a year lease on the Higbee Building.

 

Council wants to make sure the project does not hurt the IX Center and that city workers at the present convention center are protected.

 

A public hearing is scheduled Thursday between 5:30 p.m. and 7:30 p.m. to discuss sites. The hearing will be held at the Center for Families and Children at 4500 Euclid Avenue.

This is so absurd it's beyond comprehension.  Any convention center location outside of downtown is totally unacceptable.  Any argument to the contrary is totally without merit.

 

This is Cleveland, Ohio, with a downtown that, while showing some progress, can be defined as struggling: struggling for solid retail, struggling for corporate office tenants, struggling mightily for major hotel space, among others.  NO WAY does a convention center outside of downtown does anything but help destroy this city.  I don't want to hear about Chicago or New York or Washington or any other clearly establish booming city with a red hot downtown bustling with all those things I listed lacking here; a city with a downtown that DOESN'T NEED a convention center... WE DO. 

 

Glenville, Atlanta is a poor comparison to Cleveland.  Its traditional downtown is smaller and less impressive than ours (sans their gigantic hotels I wish we had), but in reality, as you note, their downtown stretches all the way out Peachtree road about 6-7 miles to its 2nd downtown at Buckhead.  This corridor also is connected to a full-service, heavy rail subway line – yeah, the one Cleveland lacked the guts to build; sorry, ECP/BRT simply doesn’t cut it.  Atlanta’s new-ish, sprawling, growing (exploding, really), service /light on heavy industry, Sunbelt city that is clearly the Yang or our Yin.

 

It's unspeakable how these boob county commissioners are botching this sure thing for Cleveland.  Why are we hearing about a possible cash shortfall NOW which could cost our downtown and our city the major economic shot-in-the-arm this huge project would represent!?  Haven't they witnessed Wolstein, MRN, K&P, Zaremba and others who's progressive projects are boosting downtown and could add (and benefit from) the synergy to an expanded downtown CC would bring?

 

I guess the commissioners' botching totally the new county admin HQ should have been precursor of potential disaster for the Med Mart/CC with these guys...  And people question why I still say our vacuum of leadership is what continues to hold our great city back.

 

Is anyone else planning on attending the meeting on the 22nd?

I will be there.

I agree with the vast majority who are saying "What?!" I actually do kinda like the idea of leveraging the convention center to increase connectivity of other revitalization projects. But with this particular site, I have to ask, connectivity to what?! The Clinic development is taking place 30 streets to the east ... I haven't even heard of any PROPOSED in-fill developments within 15 blocks to the east of the site. And to the West, I think you would be hard-pressed to find any mixed-use development ANYWHERE along Chester ... it's 30 blocks to the CSU Fitness Center, which is the only development I can think of, and it's 40 blocks before you start hitting the back-end of downtown development. Even as optimistic as I am about Cleveland's revitalization efforts, I think it would take at least a decade to create any meaningful connectivity to the east and DECADES before you could connect to activity centers to the west.

 

I don't think Midtown is really the right place for this, but even if it was, I'm in total agreement with Straphanger ... why not EUCLID and 55th? There are several very large absolutely vacant parcels just to the east of the intersection, and I could be wrong, but I believe they are controlled by Midtown, so I would have to assume acquisition costs would be very low. Moreover, you're right on the BRT line, so travel to the Clinic would be far quicker and more pleasant than on a Chester bus. You're a block away from the Agora, so there's some activity there already, and you also have existing storefronts that could be rehabbed relatively easily into restaurants/retail. Again, I think this site is far from ideal, but it would present a much better picture of Cleveland for visitors than the Chester site.

 

As far as overages, has the county considered potentially doing the Medical Mart / new county administration building in a common new development at the current administration building site? There would be no acquisition costs, and development costs could be offset by cost savings of doing two major development projects concurrently (saving tons of money on design and construction). I know that there would be some logistical issues figuring out how to separate uses in such a building, but between cost savings and the extra demand for restaurants and retail that might be garnered by having such a large county workforce right there, I would say it warrants some thought.

 

I've increasingly felt critical of the job the county commissioners do, I've always held out hope for them because of the overtures they've made to trying to build a green economy. But I'm finally at a point where I believe they need to be replaced and that we need to strategically figure out how to bring some more progressive thinkers into county and city leadership positions. Whether it be a PAC or a progressive political alliance or whatever, we need to do SOMETHING to challenge the "old school" machine politics that Dimora and Hagan seem particularly guilty of.

 

 

Even as optimistic as I am about Cleveland's revitalization efforts, I think it would take at least a decade to create any meaningful connectivity to the east and DECADES before you could connect to activity centers to the west.

 

You pretty much hit the nail on the head for exactly why this location shouldn't even be mentioned.  And I agree with your assesment that IF this development HAS to be outside of downtown, then I don't want a location outside of Euclid Avenue even considered.

Bottom line is, this location isn't being considered because of neighborhood connectivity or anything else that could be considered good (and really, there’s nothing good about building a cc here in the middle of nowhere over downtown), this location is being looked at b/c it can save money, period, and this is because the commissioners obviously didn't do their math beforehand. 

 

So the beat goes on.  Whether it's building a taxpayer-funded stadium with no dome on it (and in the 2nd snowiest big city in America, no less); or converting an old WWII  tank plant out by nothing other than the airport into a conv center, or building the AmShack by the Shoreway instead of spending $$ to properly maintaining train service at magnificent Terminal Tower, or settling for BRT/ECP rather than the subway that should be there,... this latest E 55/Chester MM/CC proposal is part of Cleveland's sorry history of building on the cheap rather than shooting for the excellence that this city once had -- and still could/should have.  It makes me sick.

 

3:45 Today on 1100 am Mike Trivosonno is having Peter Lawson Jones on as a guest.

 

Should be interesting, the guys at the radio station are calling E55 and Chester "Bagdad" and joking the site location is a scam to "run the medical mart guys right out of town."

My spidey sence is telling me the 55th site is the perfered site of the medical mart

^I hope you weren't bit by a radioactive spider.

I was flabbergasted to read of this new proposed site.  We'd better warn the Agora.  I think the closest restaurant is Hatton's Deli at 36th LOL.  Sadly, that area was probably nice once.  Wasn't there a Pennsy train station there decades ago (at Euclid and 55th).  Alas, there is no rapid tansit on that rail line now.  For the forseeable future this is SIBERIA.  I bet there are many other industrial waste lands around that could be added as more sites under consideration, as they keep adding more.