This is just delaying development.

 

What kind of timeframe is it going to take to adequately figure out the expense of acquiring the needed properties as well as the utilities that would need to be upgraded and altered to make an E.55 site ready to go?

  Now how long will it realistically take to be able to acquire the properties given not everyone is willing to deal?

  How long does Cuyahoga County have to "play" around until they stick shovels in the ground?

 

Whats the qualification for being a commissioner?

Wow - Not good.  This is really a messy situation.  Where's the leadership in Cleveland? That E. 55th Street location doesn't sound like a good idea.  Why would that even be brought up? If someone had made a decision a year or two ago, this place would have been under construction by now, and the issue of going over $400 million would probably be none-existant. 

 

Sorry to bring up another city on this Ohio site, but - geesh - In Indy, the Mayor and Governor started talking about needing to expand the convention center and about building a new domed football stadium around 2004.  (We knew in order to make the football stadium half way economically efficient, it needed to be able to have a roof so we could continue to use it for huge conventions, other, non-football sporting events, and other people gathering events like concerts, moto-cross races, wrestling, auto shows, religious gatherings, etc. etc.  The retractable roof plan was decided upon and a location decision was made within a year.)  I think it was after the 2005 state legislature finished meeting that a funding plan was put in place and after the November '05 voting, enough counties approved the penny food and beverage tax to move the project ahead.

 

They started building the new Colts Stadium in early 06 and it is now almost finished with the first event to be held there in August of 08.  The current RCA Dome will be torn down this summer and construction will begin on the convention center expansion soon after the RCA dome is gone.  The plans have the Combined Lucas Oil Stadium and expanded, attached convention center (750,000 sq. feet total) completed by 2010.  Today, Indy was announced to be the host for the 2012 Super Bowl.  Indy will have about 7000 hotel rooms within 4 blocks of its convention center by 2010 including the new JW Marriott complex with over 1500 rooms. 

 

The longer Cleveland waits, it seems the situation is only going to get worse.  The E. 55th Street location needs to be disposed of quickly.  A convention center out in the middle of "no-where" is not going to be able to create much spin off development.  It likely will just lead to having a Conv. Center that people don't want to go to and it will just be a big several hundred million dollar white elephant. 

 

I believe the Indiana Convention Center - developed in coordination with all of the other facilities in downtown,  is what keeps the steady, strong stream of people coming into downtown to make all of the restaurants and shopping thrive.  As the restaurants and bars thrive and more businesses, bars, shopping, etc open downtown, more locals also want to come downtown to eat, visit, shop, etc.  The downtown population has been very steadily growing for several decades now and is up to about 22,000 people in the heart of downtown.  Indy's downtown Circle Centre gets about 50% of its sales from out of towners, primarily convention and sports event visitors.  Without the great convention and downtown visitor traffic, I'm sure the shopping scene in downtown Indy would be similar to that of many other downtowns - ie pretty much non-existant.  Fortunately, a smart plan for downtown Indy has been followed for a good thirty years now and it continues to pay off. 

 

Before I was most supportive of the Forest City site and I still am.  I can see now how that could get pretty expensive - building on a steep riverbank.  If it can be done well though - I think it would be great to see.  There would definitely need to be a plan for the peninsula across the river from that location however.  The Mall site may be good too.  After learning more about it I think it could work decently too.  Hopefully someone can get this decision finalized soon and get something started.  The Med Mart / Convention Center combo sounds like a good idea for Cleveland to capitalize upon.  The longer you wait though - the more likely the opportunity is going to be gone, possibly capitalized on by another, more quickly moving city.   

 

 

Even more depressing is reading the first post on this thread.  It is from Dec. 2004 and says that the Decision on the location of the convention center is supposed to happen "next month" or January 2005.  The current status doesn't seem any closer to making a decision than almost three and a half years ago.  Yow. 

Where's the leadership in Cleveland?

 

Stop right there.  That's the question we face again and again in this town, and yet prance along whistling past the graveyard like everything's AOK.

 

Actually 70/65 your comments are most welcome.  Cleveland can be a very insular city and an outside perspective is needed... I've noted above how, in my first visit to Indy since childhood earlier this year, I was most impressed with Indy’s downtown and especially how you guys are expanding your cc and tying it into the very fabric of the city.  As you note, the conv center, Circle Centre mall and nearby and connected hotels are feeding off each other's energy.  Even though, metro-wise, Indy's much smaller than Greater Cleveland, Indy has several much larger hotels than downtown Cleveland.  Downtown Indy has a lot more foot-traffic and energy, in general, than downtown Cleveland right now.

 

You also had the good sense to build 2 domed multi-use stadiums (RCA Dome now Lucas Oil stadium) and attach them to the convention center.  Super Bowls, Final 4s, mega concerts and other year-round uses keep the revenue and excitement going.  And while these stadiums are near the center of town, they are still off to the side enough to not block high-density residential and retail development. 

 

Cleveland, on the other hand, has its Cleveland Browns' Fortune 200 owner induce its struggling taxpayers to fork over $350M+ to build a single use, un-domed stadium (can you say 10-12 NFL games/uses per year) that sits on prime lakefront land blocking valuable lakefront residential land.

 

But like you (and I) have said, the difference in Cleveland and Indy and other cities comes down to the same thing: leadership... or in Cleveland's case, the total lack thereof.

 

Indy doesn't build redundant, competing centers that choke the life out of each other (Galleria vs Tower city, Eton vs Legacy Village, Flats vs Warehouse Dist and E4th etc etc).  They focus well on properly sized developments.  Our convention center needs to be readily accessible to a vital downtown. and not in an area that would scare people away.  It is also ironic that the commissioners flatly refused the Medical Mart company's request to have it downtown only to now propose an outlying location themselves (unless they feel the mart will and the CC will be separated by a considerable distance).  Let's get this thing done right!!

It seems like the general assessment so far is that this is a bad idea, and among those who feel that way, it seems like reactions are bordering on incredulity. Did the Commissioners realize that their decision might garner a response like this? With the abundance of Midtown sites available, why this particular site, which seems to lack some of the merits that a site in more proximity to Euclid Ave. would provide? Both this site and sites along Euclid are served by the same CDC. The only meaningful jurisdiction difference I've seen is that the Chester site is in Ward 7 (Fannie Lewis), while a site on the east side of 55th along Euclid would be in Ward 5 (Phyllis Cleveland). But I've never seen anything that would indicate major beefs between the Commissioners and Councilwoman Cleveland, or any lovefest between them and Fannie Lewis.

 

The remaining question that's almost scary to ask ... do any of the commissioners have either a direct financial stake, political connection or friendship with any individual with a controlling interest in the E. 55th site?

The remaining question that's almost scary to ask ... do any of the commissioners have either a direct financial stake, political connection or friendship with any individual with a controlling interest in the E. 55th site?

 

^ Wouldn't that be a shocking if that's the case :roll:  Typical Cleveland politics. 

^What is also scary is the direction of these new proposed sites; it seems as if the Commissioners are saying "either Tower City, or a site that just does not make sense".  This whole ordeal is really starting to p!ss me off.

^This whole ordeal is really starting to p!ss me off.

 

Starting! :-D

Is anyone else planning on attending the meeting on the 22nd?

I will be there.

 

As will I.

It is also ironic that the commissioners flatly refused the Medical Mart company's request to have it downtown only to now propose an outlying location themselves (unless they feel the mart will and the CC will be separated by a considerable distance).  Let's get this thing done right!!

 

I find this interesting as well.

 

These commissioners have to be made accountable. I can't believe they're still in power. They shouldn't be allowed to just do whatever they want. It's not right.

 

 

I find this interesting as well.

 

These commissioners have to be made accountable. I can't believe they're still in power. They shouldn't be allowed to just do whatever they want. It's not right.

 

god, what's that thing called, when you don't like someone in a public office, you don't do something for them.....and if they don't get a majority....

 

 

^impeachment?

^Exactly.  It's not exactly that they're doing anything illegal, they are just bumbling idiots... and somehow they keep getting elected and making horrific decisions.  That being said, I'm not sure who's worse these idiots or the current Bay Village mayor that wants to run for commissioner.  That's all we need is someone as a county commissioner trying to keep Bay Village's best interests in mind.  Next thing you know there's a "new" location on the table for the CC and it's inside Crocker Park.

Are you suggesting county commissioners should not come from the suburbs?  Aren't they a part of this county?  Should all county funds be spent inside Cleveland?

Eesh.  I'm not going to hijack the convention thread with an in depth county commissioner discussion.  But, no I do not think all funds from the county should be spent inside Cleveland.  I am a big proponent of regionalism.  But yes, I am incredibly skeptical of someone who has spent the bulk of their career working towards enhancing an exurb to really get what regionalism means.  That is my own personal opinion nothing more.  If you feel differently that's fine, but I highly doubt you're going to change my opinion on that one (Read: I will never vote for someone in a regional position who holds outlying cities interests above that of the center city).

Pope, I admire your faith in the democratic process in taking care of the issue of fools or crooks in office.  But this is a two-party system, and  first you're anointed, and then you're elected.  And TPTB don't anoint people that can't be swayed or controlled.

 

Sorry - topic.

 

I am new to this forum and would like to take a moment to thank all the participants for their insightful commentary and informative posts. A special thanks to MayDay for his tireless efforts on this forum, Cleveland Skyscrapers.com, and his many threads and posts at Skyscraperpage.com which is how I came across this great site.

 

Glenville: I appreciate your view on the E.55th St. site however Cleveland is not in a position to sufficiently develop around it for quite some time. Those of you that believe a midtown like Atlanta would soon follow are not considering how much demand for office space, hotel rooms, and retail it would take to create such a place. A Place visitors are impressed with and are eager to return. Cleveland must focus its resources and demand downtown. The noble vision of a bustling midtown will only be realized once a thriving downtown needs to expand. This might be a good idea for the next generation CC, they don't last forever.

 

Forest City: Shame on you. You know the Tower City site is best used for just that, towers. Framing that iconic tower you're restoring should be office, hotel, and yes even high rise residential towers (public access to the river of course). Look back at Civic Vision 2000 and start pushing that with the zeal of your CC efforts. Offer that crazy lease to a major department store and anchor that little mall of yours. Certainly a prestigious developer like you can bring in  anchor office tenants from outside the Cleveland area; I hear Centene out of St. Louis is looking for new digs and I'm sure there is more out there. Keep in mind that the CC may not be as effective at resurrecting Tower City as your own earlier visions of a large scale mixed-use development.

 

Cleveland leadership: I don't want to sound harsh when I say this but, you are failing your community. If you read this forum, and you should, you will find that you are blamed for many of the failures of this city to realize big ideas. It might be said that it's the price that all elected officials pay but when the perception is that the failure is due to you serving your own personal interests, that's a problem. Turn this perception around and quickly find a way to use the MALL SITE! If you ask your own professionals (planning dept staff) I would be surprised if they did not all agree. It is centrally located to all a visitor to Cleveland would want to see and will leave a positive lasting impression. Even Tower City is only a 3 wood away(play it like a dog leg right, bounce it off Superior and it's goin right through the front door).

 

Sorry, a bit long for my first post.

hey great first post. first of many i hope -- welcome!

Thank you and I'm sure I will.

I'm wishy-washy about which of the proposals is worse - the idea of putting the center next to Browns stadium on a valuable lakefront parcel, or the idea of putting it smack next to the PJ's on East Five-Five.  (Maybe they could remodel the Willson Tower into that W Hotel that everyone's craving in C-town)

 

Let's just add another stupid idea - add the Medical Mart onto the side of the IX Center, connect it to a new E concourse and a huge Marriott Hotel, and attendees can just fly into Cleveland for a conference and never exit the airport.  That's about how much life a convention center at either site mentioned above would add to downtown.

It's almost as if they are adding incredibly bad sites to make the merely bad site that we know they want look good.

Welcome, Clvlndr in LV. Awesome first post.

^ ditto... like the name, too ... I think.

you had better hope the commissioners don't read this forum....they'll steal your awesome ix center idea and you won't get any credit.

 

I'm wishy-washy about which of the proposals is worse - the idea of putting the center next to Browns stadium on a valuable lakefront parcel, or the idea of putting it smack next to the PJ's on East Five-Five.  (Maybe they could remodel the Willson Tower into that W Hotel that everyone's craving in C-town)

 

Let's just add another stupid idea - add the Medical Mart onto the side of the IX Center, connect it to a new E concourse and a huge Marriott Hotel, and attendees can just fly into Cleveland for a conference and never exit the airport.  That's about how much life a convention center at either site mentioned above would add to downtown.

I made it a point to check out the E. 55th and Chester site today.  What corner were they planning?  There're train tracks on one side... I consider that a barrier.  There's a very tall apartment building on the other corner, a loan place on yet another corner, and something else, which I forget because I didn't take photos.

 

I'm pretty sure that X is right; they're just throwing out horrible ideas to make the one they want look good.  Why isn't the mall and exisitng convention center the one they want?  Money, yeah, sure, but they could find the extra million, or whatever, somewhere, if they tried.  It's gotta be something else.

 

Maybe we'll find out, tonight.

It's almost as if they are adding incredibly bad sites to make the merely bad site that we know they want look good.

 

Fish out of water, nice.  The other corner at E. 55 and Chester is a U-Haul store.  And to all of you who are going to the meeting tonight - kick some butt for those of us who can't go!

I think that's a red herring, actually. :)

I certainly hope the words "You have now moved yourself into a very precarious position in each of your next reelection cycles" come up.

 

Capital-R Red herring. Let's throw out some site ideas like cutting off development opportunities on the lakefront or building in a relatively desolate part of town, make it sound like these are the only POSSIBLE options outside of those already identified and then when we say we need an extra $100 million for Tower City, voters will be lining up to acquiesce.

 

The alternative to them being dishonest about their intents and motives is equally alarming ... that they believe these two sites actually would fulfill the original objectives of the Convention Center concept. Pick your poison - nefarious or oblivious.

 

And yet one more question ... Am I correct in believing that the E. 55th site is not currently under county ownership? If so, and if cost considerations are the primary (seemingly sole) rationale for that particular site, is it wise for them to so overtly announce their interests in a particular parcel at that intersection? Isn't that likely to raise potential acquisition costs?

^For reasons other posters have mentioned above, I don't believe that this site is seriously being considered by the county commissioners. It seems we are all being set up to accept the TC location as the best available site. And when compared to the lakefront, WHD, and Midtown....it is.

 

It's not looking real good for the Mall right now.  :-(

Agreed, a Red Herring indeed; however those stinky bastards beg the question why; in this particular case why so bent on the TC site? I know this is speculation since no decision is made but most here seem to see the writing on the wall.

Sounds like a few of the posters here will be attending the public meeting tonight; hope you'll share as many details as possible.

 

Thanks to KJP and clvlndr for the welcome. Sorry about the name thing clvlndr... born and raised in Cleveland and now live in Las Vegas, didn't dig to hard for a name.

Sounds like a few of the posters here will be attending the public meeting tonight; hope you'll share as many details as possible.

 

I'll sure try.  I'm not the best note taker, though. :/

I just got back.  The Mall site now definitely includes Public Auditorium and will include the 113 St. Clair building/parking garage for the Medical Mart with possible expansion onto the current County offices (if that is news at all- I forget what is "official" and what is speculation).  The TC site looks to have most of the MM on the underground area beneath The Landmark Offices and Higbees, with some additional space on the ground floor (meeting space) and on the tenth floor (other stuff-yeah I suck at detail). 

 

Lots of people spoke.  I left before they finished, but 20 minutes after the announced end time.  Almost unanimously the comments were for the current site.  That was heartening.  Let's hope the Commissioners listen.  PLJ was present, but not the other two.

Public assesses proposed sites for convention center, medical mart

 

Posted by Sarah Hollander

May 22, 2008 22:22PM

 

 

Downtown's grassy malls emerged as the favorite location for Cleveland's new convention center and medical mart at a public forum Thursday night.

 

About 100 people attended the meeting, sponsored by Cuyahoga County. Most who spoke favored renovating and expanding the existing Cleveland Convention Center on and under the malls and building a connected medical mart nearby...

 

http://blog.cleveland.com/metro/2008/05/public_assesses_proposed_sites.html

Good job to all the people that went  :clap:

Once again, good job to all those who were the voices of reason last night. Could somebody give an idea of how large the convention center exhibition floor would need to be if it was to built under the Malls? Are we talking all of mall C and the north part of B? Or all of B and C?

Once again, good job to all those who were the voices of reason last night. Could somebody give an idea of how large the convention center exhibition floor would need to be if it was to built under the Malls? Are we talking all of mall C and the north part of B? Or all of B and C?

 

I would post, but there are examples and links upthread. 

Lots of people spoke.  I left before they finished, but 20 minutes after the announced end time.  Almost unanimously the comments were for the current site.  That was heartening.  Let's hope the Commissioners listen.  PLJ was present, but not the other two.

 

Definitely great job to all. Hopefully this does something to sway them. If the responses were all across the board, I'd be worried, but it sounds like there was strong support for the current site. Hopefully, it'll do something to impress upon the commissioners that the current site is the favored site by the public.

X and Sarah Hollander (by way of Murray Hill) summed it up, pretty much.  I can't add anything else...

 

...except my opinion.  I've been in favor of the Mall site since I started following this, but last night strengthened my resolve.  The plans for the Tower City site are way too crowded and busy.  They want to cram this thing in between the river and Huron Road, and link it to the Higbee building.  It sounds fine in theory, but when they showed us the drawings (just floor plans -- no renderings), it just looked like a confused mess.

 

Plus, they had convention traffic (mostly trucks) coming down Huron from 71 and 77.  Some days that'd be fine, but on those odd days when there's a Cavs game, a Tribe game and something going on at Tower City Amphitheater, well, clusterf*ck doesn't really seem to cover it.

 

Whatever their reasons were, everyone in the "audience," last night, was overwhelmingly in favor of the Mall site.  The first gentleman to speak was very angry (maybe rightfully so), but I think his anger (though valid) was misplaced.  Maybe not.  I don't know the whole story.  Everyone else was pretty reasonable, but there were a couple nutjobs towards the 7-7:30 end of the discussion.  It was funny that they followed each other... like it was planned that way.

 

I left just after 7:30, so I don't know what summarizations were made at the end, but based on what PLJ said at the begginning, I doubt we'll hear anything final on a site until later summer or maybe the fall (X, am I remembering that correctly?).

Thanks all for the updates!!  I'll take it as a good sign that the public seems fairly unanimous in its support for the Mall site. What I don't take as a good sign is that only one commissioner was present. Maybe that shouldn't be a concern but honestly do they have much bigger things on their plates these days?

What I don't take as a good sign is that only one commissioner was present. Maybe that shouldn't be a concern but honestly do they have much bigger things on their plates these days?

 

At least we know that Dimora does.

Zing.

 

 

:lol:

^ I'm guessing Dimora's a big boy... glad to lob one over for ya.  LOL

I think Dimora and Hagan's other problems would have been a distraction for the meeting.  It is a good thing that only PLJ showed up.

 

Ipsilon, I'm sorry, I didn't take notes and don't remember when the decision was to be announced.  PLJ did say that the GCP would make their recommendation, then there may be additional things the commissioners consider, including possibly more public input.

 

There were a couple of crazy ideas, though I sort of like Citizen Vision's idea of stretching the Mall all the way to the Lakefront, but not leaving the current convention center and building onto the north end of it. 

 

The other I'm assuming you are talking about is the guy who wanted to build the Convention Center on Greek Pillars above the current center and the rest of the Group Plan.  I wish he had brought renderings of that.

The other I'm assuming you are talking about is the guy who wanted to build the Convention Center on Greek Pillars above the current center and the rest of the Group Plan.  I wish he had brought renderings of that.

 

WTF?  :bang:

^ Precisely.

 

:)  He looked like a crazy old hippie in a suit.  It was entertaining, to say the least.

Here's the Citizens Visions idea.

 

http://www.citizensvision.org/friends-hm/downloads/harborfront_pdf.pdf

Here's the Citizens Visions idea.

 

http://www.citizensvision.org/friends-hm/downloads/harborfront_pdf.pdf

 

That's quite ambitious, but I think I like it!  I would totally take a ferry from Cleveland to Canada....  8-)

 

That's quite ambitious, but I think I like it!  I would totally take a ferry from Cleveland to Canada....  8-)

 

FYI, We have a thread for that: http://www.urbanohio.com/forum2/index.php/topic,1205.0.html