$400 million for a convention center seems reasonable enough these days. The question is will it be used enough to justify the construction?

 

The $400 million is the projected take from the recent county sales tax increase. The commisioners have said that they don't want to put in more than what the public has already authorized, which probably is a good move.

 

I don't get that. The public didn't authorize any certain amount. The commissioners, per Ohio Law, decided to raise the $400 million through the sales tax increase. Why couldn't they just add another year or two onto the tax to increase the amount?

They probably already took the money and the tax was raised to pay it back...

They probably already took the money and the tax was raised to pay it back...

 

HUH??  What would make you say that?

They probably already took the money and the tax was raised to pay it back...

 

HUH??  What would make you say that?

 

Just speculation.  Consider, though, that this project has been in the planning stages for quite some time, so they might've earmarked the money back then, and raised the tax to pay it back later.  Also, if that's not the case, why are they so adamantly locked in to $400 mil when they could, as 3231 asks, just wait a couple more years?  I mean, they're looking at crazy, pointless sites, rather than waiting... that suggests to me that they already have the money sitting somewhere and it can't be easily increased.

 

Like I said, just speculation.

Need a location?  Cleveland Browns Stadium is empty 355 days a year.  Put a lid on it, lol.

 

^^Probably because a lot of  projects in the county start of costing one amount and wind up costing a whole lot more.  The Rock Hall was supposed to cost about $5million, and wound up costing near $100MM. 

The commisioners set a ceiling on the amount of public money to be used and they are sticking to it.  I think that is a good thing.

Need a location? Cleveland Browns Stadium is empty 355 days a year. Put a lid on it, lol.

 

 

Please further explain your concept.

^^Probably because a lot of  projects in the county start of costing one amount and wind up costing a whole lot more.  The Rock Hall was supposed to cost about $5million, and wound up costing near $100MM. 

The commisioners set a ceiling on the amount of public money to be used and they are sticking to it.  I think that is a good thing.

 

Punch thats incorrect.  IIRC, the rock hall was estimated at 55 (it might have been 65) million dollars.  The additional cost was a) moving it to North Coast harbor and b) revising the design because of the move and the airport.

 

With all due respect, comparing the two project doesn't hold much water.

http://blog.cleveland.com/plaindealer/2008/07/sutherland_calls_for_suspensio.html

 

Sutherland calls for suspension of med mart sales tax

Posted by Joe Guillen

July 02, 2008 11:44AM

 

Cuyahoga County Commissioner candidate Deborah Sutherland is calling for the suspension of the recent sales tax increase - an increase she supported - because the Medical Mart project is moving too slowly.

 

Commissioners voted 2-1 last year to raise the county's sales tax a quarter of a cent. Money collected from the tax increase is being set aside to pay for a new convention center and medical mart, which will host trade shows...

 

What an idiot!

Debbie, this doesn't really help.

I hate her.  And this is a deplorable act of attention grabbing.

i HOPE what she is doing is just putting pressure on these guys to get this done....

 

she wouldnt ACTUALLY try to pull the plug on the tax increase

 

 

or wait.. it IS a cuyahoga county commish...

 

so nevermind.

i HOPE what she is doing is just putting pressure on these guys to get this done....

 

she wouldnt ACTUALLY try to pull the plug on the tax increase

 

 

or wait.. it IS a cuyahoga county commish...

 

so nevermind.

 

SHE IS NOT A COMMISSIONER!

 

She is grand standing and using this as a platform for her own personal gain, not the best interest for the county!  She is now taking focus from the real issues.  An issue that I think needs to be well looked at, since production, construction cost have increased since the announcement.

 

I know that I want the new CC to be on the Mall, but I'm not at the table so I don't know what all negotiations Nance has ongoing.  But I want him to look at all angles, short and long-term and not rush to a decision.

 

Cuyahoga County Commissioner candidate Deborah Sutherland

 

oops.. see "candidate" is the only word not capitalized.. musta missed it

 

:D

 

Cuyahoga County Commissioner candidate Deborah Sutherland

 

oops.. see "candidate" is the only word not capitalized.. musta missed it

 

:D

 

don't worry.  I've been having senior moments the past two days myself.

"i HOPE what she is doing is just putting pressure on these guys to get this done.... "

 

That has to be it - seems like it would be political suicide if she seriously wants the tax revoked

Quickie detour: is this woman also hampering the West Shore commuter rail?

 

... back to MM/CC.

I wouldn't say "hampering" West Shore rail but she isn't a backer.

I've just moved back to Cleveland after being out of town for a few years, and am starting to follow the Medical Mart project closely. This question might have been answered already, but is there any reason the new CC / MM would have to be built underground if it were to be built on the current site? I know people talk about consistence with the Group Plan, preserving the Mall, etc, but wouldn't it be cheaper to build above ground on the mall? Is there a law stopping that?

Cheaper does not mean better.  Put it above ground and you will have an ugly, bulky building that would cover that entire area instead of a beautiful mall that can be used by residents and workers Downtown.  Cleveland should not have to settle for a half-@ssed job.  We've done enough of that in the past and it's time to demand better. 

jbfc welcome!

 

remarkably & even tho $400m is being bandied around i dont think its truly an issue of looking for cheaper. site selection seems to be mostly one of political maneuvering and a tug of war between uc & tc stakeholders, among others who stand to profit. if it was built at the mall site it would stay under the mall -- btw i agree with clevelandpride above & think that the mall is the very best choice, if not the least expensive.

 

If the complex is built at the Mall, it would have to be partially underground, in order to accomodate large exhibit halls.

 

Would all construction at the present site be underground? Hopefully if the mall needs to be torn up during renovations the new mall can be improved to entice more people to make use of it.

I'd like to see St. Clair tunneled underneath the Mall with a cap on top of it. It appears that there is some sort of crest in the topography between St. Clair and Lakeside--which diminishes the view shed of any "united mall" plan.

 

 

Forest City revamps proposal for riverfront convention center

Posted by Sarah Hollander

July 21, 2008 13:57PM

 

 

The company decided to rethink the building's design after realizing that updated estimates would push the price past half a billion dollars, said David LaRue, chief operating officer of Forest City Commercial Group.

 

The new proposal still won't meet the county's $400 million cap, he said, but will keep it within the ballpark. He wouldn't put an exact figure on the new estimate...

 

http://blog.cleveland.com/metro/2008/07/forest_city_revamps_proposal_f.html

so we're still trying to build a vertical convention center but now we get the added bonus of a new surface lot stretching towards the river... neat.

EPIC FAIL.

Can $100 million be shaved from the costs to build on the current location? If not, it looks like we might have a location.

 

 

At this point, I don't even care about the location.  Just build the damn thing already.

so we're still trying to build a vertical convention center but now we get the added bonus of a new surface lot stretching towards the river... neat.

 

Would that necessarily be a new surface lot, though? To me, it reads that they'll build on a portion of the existing lots, and leave the other portion open for "an office tower or hotel there in the future."

^I read it as rooftop parking on a third of the building mass that vehicles would access from Huron.  Unclear if it is at street level or above it.  If it's really a foregone conclusion that this thing is going to end up at TC, this sounds like a big improvement over the last version, no?

At this point, I don't even care about the location. Just build the damn thing already.

 

Agree. Well as long as the location is downtown.

 

^I read it as rooftop parking on a third of the building mass that vehicles would access from Huron.  Unclear if it is at street level or above it.  If it's really a foregone conclusion that this thing is going to end up at TC, this sounds like a big improvement over the last version, no?

 

one story of construction above huron, with parking above.  i read future office tower or hotel as just that... future.  I think this vertical convention center is an absolutely horrid idea and is going to cause a LOT of problems and probably leave us with a pretty sub par convention center.  But unless they can get costs down at the existing site, I'm not sure that there is a choice.  :|

 

on a side note, I can't think of a worse idea than the main entrance of this place being off W Huron.  Any ever cross that road, it seriously might as well be a highway, you practically have to run across to beat the light as it is SIX lanes of traffic.  Nothing like a pedestrian friendly convention center.  By the way... the site as they are describing it now is located directly across from the landmark building where cars enter to the TC parking... the exact same spot that forest city long ago proposed a tower for to mirror the federal courthouse building (not in terms of design but in terms of scale)... looks like FC is getting exactly what they want a tower to finish off thier complex, only it has a convention center smashed into the bottom floors, giving us the only vertical convention center in the world chopping up floor space onto different floors.  Awesome.

I was driving on Euclid, and I know this will make people crazy, but I don't understand why this thing can't go on the land in Midtown closer to University Circle? When conventions come, have someone at the hotels and conventions leading these people to the Healthline and to their show.

^In general conventioneers (and show organizers) want as close to on-site access as they can get. That's the whole concept of a "convention hotel" (aka big-arsed hotel capable of housing a few thousand people at a time); now - would you locate a "convention hotel" in Midtown, knowing that the other requirement is easy access to amenities and attractions?

I am a supporter of the current site, but I am happy Forest City is at least playing ball.  Originally they seemed to think that the county owed them the convention center, so the change of tune is nice.

 

BTW, I understand Cleveland does not equal Chicago, but I am at my place in the south loop, looking at McCormick place, and I think it works just fine.  A midtown CC would not be the worst thing.  It would be light years better than the IX center's location.

I re-read this article a couple of times and I am a little confused...Maybe all the "proposals" are starting to blend together...This proposal is still behind TC right?  What's the difference between this and the other 25 proposals FC has submitted, minus they don't own the land now? Am I missing something obvious here?

^Note the rendering from one of the older proposals below (ignore the red circle). See how the main bulk of the building rests on stilts? Take out the stilts, drop the bulk so that only one level is above Huron Road:

 

Anger .. boiling .. red .. seeing .. !

Anger .. boiling .. red .. seeing .. !

 

ditto!

Wouldn't this ruin the chance of Cuyahoga Valley RR having a downtown depot under Tower City? - I thought that was "under the stilts" on the old plan.

one of many things this would ruin... also ruined are the new convention center and a large swath of land where the old convention center is that pretty much becomes worthless for the next 50 or so years.

Now FC will be all giddy since they can attempt to realize their plans to fill out the area in front of TC.  I think someone up thread just mentioned that but anyway.  See the photo courtesy of KJP.

 

that's the one i was refering to... thanks.  and so it will probably end the way it always does around here... with FCE getting everything they want regardless of what is best for the city.

I think it's really ridiculous how these big companies (Cleveland Clinic, Forest City, etc) can really get the upper hand just because they're big and Cleveland wants to bow to their every whim to make them happy. I mean, I can understand that to an extent. Cleveland is definitely fortunate to have companies like these. But it can't bow to their every whim. Because at the end of the day, they're all businesses. And businesses work for their own bottom lines.

Who do we have to kidnap and convince that this is a bad idea?

 

...

 

Did I say kidnap?  :wtf: :-o :angel:

I think it's really ridiculous how these big companies (Cleveland Clinic, Forest City, etc) can really get the upper hand just because they're big and Cleveland wants to bow to their every whim to make them happy.

 

Whoa, there, boyo.  :)  Don't lump the Clinic in with the Forest City f*cks.  The Clinic wanted to make traffic circles on Euclid at 105th and 90th (or thereabouts) to make the new entrance a little more peaceful and pedestrian friendy.  The city said "no way, Toby" and the Clinic backed off on that.

FYI.. the Cuyahoga Valley Scenic RR would still have a station included in the convention center, if the Tower City site is chosen.

^You cannot trash FC and not aknowledge that the Cleveland Clinic being so large it has a monopoly to charge what it wants for healthcare around here thus making it more expensive to own and operate businesses.  They are all just looking out for themselves which is not to say that is a bad thing.  Back on point, Sam Miller wants to get this project done before he sees the company of to Al Ratner, who is a genius of a man but it seems there are so many factors going so many ways.