July 22, 200816 yr But unless they can get costs down at the existing site, I'm not sure that there is a choice. :| McCleveland, do you, or does anyone else, know if there have been any actual cost estimates released yet? I ask because the only articles I can remember reading on the subject of cost overruns were from the PD, and they only alluded to vague problems with the water table and unspecified costs associated with that. Just wondering if there are more concrete numbers that I somehow missed.
July 22, 200816 yr almost a yr and sales tax raise that we couldnt vote on later and still nothing wheres the medical mart?
July 22, 200816 yr Here's something I believe our great piece of journalism newspaper forgot to mention since the beginning of this fiasco- have the plans for the mall site EVER changed, and who is developing it? Forest city's plans have changed many times since the announcement of the convention center, in part (I believe), because they know that they have the inferior site between the two. But what of the mall site? Any new updates on that site?
July 22, 200816 yr Cost estimates are supposed to be released before the end of the month (of July!), that is of course until they move the date back again.
July 22, 200816 yr I think it's really ridiculous how these big companies (Cleveland Clinic, Forest City, etc) can really get the upper hand just because they're big and Cleveland wants to bow to their every whim to make them happy. I mean, I can understand that to an extent. Cleveland is definitely fortunate to have companies like these. But it can't bow to their every whim. Because at the end of the day, they're all businesses. And businesses work for their own bottom lines. Cleveland Clinic?? Where would this city be without the Cleveland Clinic? They have done so much for this city. Forest City is doing what any business would do--they are making an attractive proposal. Maybe it is a proposal that the County can not refuse. It is not as if they are twisting the County's arm. In fact, they are complying with the County's demands. I don't get your logic on this one. Are they secretly adding millions of dollars to the cost of the Mall site?
July 22, 200816 yr I finally got my comments posted on cleveland.dumb (I LOVE THAT!!), which routinely has not posted comments which are in support of the opposition (i.e. the mall site). My first attempt at posting a comment yesterday didn't make it to the site. We'll see if it gets deleted, though. It wouldn't be the first time that's happened.
July 22, 200816 yr ^that has happened before on some non-controversial articles. I really doubt that they are editing it because you support the current location.
July 22, 200816 yr I spoke too soon... it got deleted. Unbelievable. Here's part of what I typed this morning, The mall site has better access for trucks, more land for expansion, and more hotel rooms within a close vicinity. Why this paper keeps pushing the Tower City site is beyond me. The mall site is statistically superior to Tower City (and don't give me the "Tower City has the Rapid which a conventioner could take from the airport", as the mall site has the Waterfront Line. If a conventioner takes the train from the airport to Tower City, then jumps on the Waterfront Line, they'll go around the newly built EAST BANK by the time construction of the new convention center is completed. That will make a great impression on a person from out of town who doesn't get bombarded by negative news about Cleveland like us locals). If, and that's IF, Forest City were to develop the Scranton Peninsula behind Tower City (which they originally proposed, then pulled back when the city was first discussing building a new convention center with then Mayor Jane Campbell), then the Tower City site would be a shoe-in. However, that is not the case; Forest City will not build on the peninsula, and conventioners will look over a barren patch of land as they look over the river.
July 28, 200816 yr Does today's raid on the county commisioners office ( Dimora) have any inpact on this week's decision on the site selection.
July 29, 200816 yr FBI raided dimora? hahahah GOOD! the fuckin 3 stooges need to all get the hell out. how are these clowns in office in the first place? wonder where tax money REALLY goes to........ and a question about the sales tax raise for this medical mart, is that even legal? can they raise the sales tax without a vote?
July 29, 200816 yr 200 agents involved raiding 10+ locations. Not just small quid pro quo if it involves this many agents. Who knows what will unravel from this.
July 29, 200816 yr and a question about the sales tax raise for this medical mart, is that even legal? can they raise the sales tax without a vote? You think you live in a pure Democracy where the public should vote on every tax hike? You don't. You live in a representative republic. Remember all that stuff from about 230 years ago, about taxation without representation? We fought and died for a Constitution that allowed us to "hire" by popular vote various elected representatives to make tough governing decisions for us. That include raising revenues to operate government. If you want to debate this, start a new discussion in the Off Topic Thread. "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
July 29, 200816 yr the medical mart / convention center is most assuredly stalled/delayed until further notice. there will be no progress made on this project until the investigation is complete, which will take years...
July 29, 200816 yr And you're saying this based on what expertise? clevelandskyscrapers.com Cleveland Skyscrapers on Instagram
July 29, 200816 yr the medical mart / convention center is most assuredly stalled/delayed until further notice. there will be no progress made on this project until the investigation is complete, which will take years... with hard facts like those, I don't see how I can disagree.
July 29, 200816 yr But on a somewhat more wait-and-see note... http://blog.cleveland.com/metro/2008/07/could_the_federal_publiccorrup.html Could the federal public-corruption probe affect the Med Mart project? Posted by Sarah Hollander July 29, 2008 12:06PM The potential impact of the public-corruption investigation that rocked Cuyahoga County government Monday on ongoing projects, including the county's plans for a new Cleveland convention center and medical mart, remains unclear. Behind-the-scenes planning is ongoing. A Greater Cleveland Partnership site selection committee plans to meet later this afternoon to review the top two sites-the existing Lakeside Avenue address and a riverfront site behind Tower City Center...
July 29, 200816 yr the medical mart / convention center is most assuredly stalled/delayed until further notice. there will be no progress made on this project until the investigation is complete, which will take years... For what it's worth, PLJ reminded everyone in his news conference this morning that Jimmy has only one vote, so PLJ and Hagan can still conduct all county commissioner business without him with their two votes.
July 30, 200816 yr Cuyahoga County corruption investigation not expected to get in way of medical mart Planning for a new Cleveland convention center and medical mart is moving ahead despite the public-corruption investigation targeting some Cuyahoga County officials. "It's business as usual," said Mark Falanga, a senior vice president with Merchandise Mart Properties Inc. Plain Dealer reporter Joe Guillen contributed to this story. To reach this Plain Dealer reporter: [email protected], 216-999-4816 More at cleveland.com: http://www.cleveland.com/news/plaindealer/index.ssf?/base/cuyahoga/1217406725291130.xml&coll=2
July 30, 200816 yr Commissioner Peter Lawson Jones said during a news conference Tuesday that now, more than ever, county decisions related to the project should be made with "absolute openness and transparency." . . . . A consultant paid by the partnership has finished price estimates for both, not including property acquisition costs, said attorney and committee Chairman Fred Nance. He declined to disclose those estimates. Someone call Commissioner Jones and ask for those estimates!
July 30, 200816 yr Commissioner Peter Lawson Jones said during a news conference Tuesday that now, more than ever, county decisions related to the project should be made with "absolute openness and transparency." . . . . A consultant paid by the partnership has finished price estimates for both, not including property acquisition costs, said attorney and committee Chairman Fred Nance. He declined to disclose those estimates. Someone call Commissioner Jones and ask for those estimates! Call Fred.
July 30, 200816 yr Not including property acquisition, as in leaving part of the price out to make ONE of the sites look better than it is? Huh...
July 30, 200816 yr I would be really surprised if this affected the medical mart in any serious way. There's already been way too much money, time and effort invested by both sides to allow a seemingly unrelated scandal to ruin this project.
August 2, 200816 yr Author Could it just be as simple as the purchase price for the property acquisition is still being negotiated, so it is not being included?
August 4, 200816 yr Tower City site is much cheaper BUT still way over budget. http://www.wkyc.com/news/local/news_article.aspx?storyid=94213&catid=45
August 4, 200816 yr Tower City site is much cheaper BUT still way over budget. http://www.wkyc.com/news/local/news_article.aspx?storyid=94213&catid=45 something doesn't smell right! Cheaper today and when the site doesn't function properly or it's outdated, we'll be in the same boat. So instead of doing it right and putting it in a location that makes sense, we spend money to avoid the problem instead of fixing the problem NOW and for the FUTURE. Throwing money after a bad idea is ridiculous. this particular issues isn't not just about the $$$ and cents, but what makes SENSE. Cleveland's future as a location that can support larger tourism, meeting, special events and conventions is at stake. I bet if this get built behind tower city, we won't see any new hotels, restaurants or ancillary businesses, marketing or promotion of the city/region.
August 4, 200816 yr This makes me throw up in my mouth a little... and I hate to say i told you so... but a few of my own quotes from this thread: "it's going to end up down town at the higbee building. there's too many political forces at work." 1/07/08 "If this convention center doesn't end up behind Tower City I will buy everyone on this forum a beer. Not saying that is necessarily what I would do. But I will bet almost anything that, that's where it's going. Too many political forces at work on that one. " 03/13/08 "I'm telling you... you can argue all the points you want... but this thing is going to be built behind tower city. I have met and heard things from too many prominent officials (past and current administration) over the last 3-4 years... They will put on a nice dog and pony show about site selection... and then they will announce that it is being built behind tower city. " 03/13/08 "But I've stated many times before... I'm pretty sure this decision is well already made. Get ready for the TC site, and let's at least hope that the attached convention center can help recreate Tower City as a legitimate shopping destination, and that they can come up with a good plan on how not to have the existing site be a wasteland. " 03/17/08 "You are all very right... and it's still going to go behind tower city. " 03/18/08 "I'd love... LOVE... to see the existing site as the convention center, with the actual Mart in the Higbees Building. It forces the interaction we all crave. It could do so many great things for downtown. But if you open your ears at all, you hear the same things... and it's that this thing is going to end up behind tower city. " 03/19/08 I could go on... and on... and on... everything about the current site is so right. And everything about the TC site is so wrong... and it was ALWAYS going to be built on the TC site.
August 4, 200816 yr I bet if this get built behind tower city, we won't see any new hotels, restaurants or ancillary businesses, marketing or promotion of the city/region. What makes you think that. Everything that's been presented refutes your pressumption. All the planning has been there would be a new hotel at the site and, perhaps, that the Renaissance would finally be expanded over that empty hole at corner of Superior and Prospect. Clearly Tower City would get a shot in the arm -- oops, sorry, the Ratners are hated; that's no option.
August 4, 200816 yr ^^No marketing of the city or region because it's behind tower city? To borrow one of your too often used lines MTS, where is your data or evidence to back this statement up or is it just a knee-jerk reaction? To assume that there would be more marketing of the region if the current site was used makes no sense. To be clear, I far prefer the current c.c. site, but find it hard to believe that $460 million would be spent on a project that wouldn't get marketed.
August 4, 200816 yr I bet if this get built behind tower city, we won't see any new hotels, restaurants or ancillary businesses, marketing or promotion of the city/region. What makes you think that. Everything that's been presented refutes your pressumption. All the planning has been there would be a new hotel at the site and, perhaps, that the Renaissance would finally be expanded over that empty hole at corner of Superior and Prospect. Clearly Tower City would get a shot in the arm -- oops, sorry, the Ratners are hated; that's no option. We'll most likely get one hotel attached to TC not the convention size hotel attached to the center itself if it was built on the current site. Nor would we see the spin off hotels that would be built near by. Again, my problem never been aimed at the Rats/FC only the site selection itself. So don't lump me in with others who have a issue with the Rats. ^^No marketing of the city or region because it's behind tower city? To borrow one of your too often used lines MTS, where is your data or evidence to back this statement up or is it just a knee-jerk reaction? To assume that there would be more marketing of the region if the current site was used makes no sense. To be clear, I far prefer the current c.c. site, but find it hard to believe that $460 million would be spent on a project that wouldn't get marketed. What multi-tiered/omni marketing or promotion of the city have you seen in the past? As someone who works in Marketing, I say from a professional perspective, I'll eat my keyboard if marketing and promotions programs on a local, regional and national level emerge.
August 4, 200816 yr MTS, one hotel would be great -- either (preferred) all new, or expanding an old one. But we need one that has AT LEAST 600 rooms, preferrably 700+. For years we've been told that until we build a downtown convention center, somewhere, we'll never get one. That's why I can at all agree w/ jamiec, and others', idea that somehow building the MM at/near University Circle is a good thing. It would represent the death of a viable downtown.
August 5, 200816 yr The TC site costs don't include the $40 million that FC wants for the air rights, and I doubt the include the cost of reuse or removal of the current CC site. I don't think this is a fair evaluation.
August 5, 200816 yr I completely agree... who else wants to be that when they finish with this thing it will cost at least 540 million. And on top of it we're about to have the world's first vertical multi floored convention center. Nothing like having an unconventional convention center. This will work wonders for leaving things like the autoshow out at the IX center.
August 5, 200816 yr Attorney Nance to announce a site and explain how to pay for it as early as thursday per channel 8 news
August 5, 200816 yr The Tower City location is pretty small for a convention center, so that knocks the cost down a bit, since the complex would be smaller than the current location.
August 5, 200816 yr "Attorney Nance to announce a site and explain how to pay for it as early as thursday per channel 8 news " Really? That's great. Hell, I'm so skeptical about this thing ever being built I wouldn't even care if they built it on E55 at this point
August 5, 200816 yr ^ Haha! I agree! But remember, the county has 3 commissioners and only 1 is out. Shouldn't stop this from happening. If it does, then I smell corruption on the national level!
August 5, 200816 yr http://www.myfoxcleveland.com/myfox/pages/Home/Detail;jsessionid=6F8F400B9AB62CCBDB993B3CE7B2C55F?contentId=7133155&version=2&locale=EN-US&layoutCode=TSTY&pageId=1.1.1&sflg=1 I-Team Report: Site Committee Leans Toward Tower City as Medical Mart Location Last Edited: Monday, 04 Aug 2008, 7:57 PM EDT Created: Monday, 04 Aug 2008, 6:26 PM EDT We may be one step closer to knowing the location for the proposed Medical Mart and new convention center. Two sources tell the FOX 8 I-Team that a site selection committee is leaning towards recommending Tower City as the future home of the complex. The other location under consideration is at the site of the old convention center on Lakeside Avenue. The chairman of the site selection committee, Fred Nance, will neither confirm nor deny that Tower City is the preferred location. The final say on the location belongs to the County Commissioners Two weeks ago, the I-Team's Bill Sheil broke the story of money problems at both locations. At the old convention center site, the idea had been to dig underground to get the space needed. But not too far down is Lake Erie, and building in the water table in incredibly expensive. Planners could build out on the site, but that would mean destroying the mall next door - a nationally-registered historical site. At Tower City, the problem is what it would cost to build the infrastructure needed to support having a convention center located in the heart of downtown. Still, the Tower City site is reportedly come in below the figure for the old convention center site. A potential problem still exists: both sites are still being priced well above the roughly $400 million that will be raised by the quarter cent sales tax that was imposed last year by the County Commission to pay for the complex (Commissioner Peter Lawson Jones voted against the sales tax). Fred Nance may make a formal recommendation to the County Commission as soon as Thursday as to where to build the complex and how to pay for it.
August 5, 200816 yr http://www.myfoxcleveland.com/myfox/pages/Home/Detail;jsessionid=6F8F400B9AB62CCBDB993B3CE7B2C55F?contentId=7133155&version=2&locale=EN-US&layoutCode=TSTY&pageId=1.1.1&sflg=1 I-Team Report: Site Committee Leans Toward Tower City as Medical Mart Location Last Edited: Monday, 04 Aug 2008, 7:57 PM EDT Created: Monday, 04 Aug 2008, 6:26 PM EDT We may be one step closer to knowing the location for the proposed Medical Mart and new convention center. Two sources tell the FOX 8 I-Team that a site selection committee is leaning towards recommending Tower City as the future home of the complex. The other location under consideration is at the site of the old convention center on Lakeside Avenue. The chairman of the site selection committee, Fred Nance, will neither confirm nor deny that Tower City is the preferred location. The final say on the location belongs to the County Commissioners Two weeks ago, the I-Team's Bill Sheil broke the story of money problems at both locations. At the old convention center site, the idea had been to dig underground to get the space needed. But not too far down is Lake Erie, and building in the water table in incredibly expensive. Planners could build out on the site, but that would mean destroying the mall next door - a nationally-registered historical site. At Tower City, the problem is what it would cost to build the infrastructure needed to support having a convention center located in the heart of downtown. Still, the Tower City site is reportedly come in below the figure for the old convention center site. A potential problem still exists: both sites are still being priced well above the roughly $400 million that will be raised by the quarter cent sales tax that was imposed last year by the County Commission to pay for the complex (Commissioner Peter Lawson Jones voted against the sales tax). Fred Nance may make a formal recommendation to the County Commission as soon as Thursday as to where to build the complex and how to pay for it. Destroying the mall next door? Way to slant to slant the story. We all know the space would be replaced on top of the new center. ugh :roll:
August 5, 200816 yr If this thing winds up being built at La Palace in Beachwood, Ohio, I would laugh and laugh and laugh and laugh. And then cry. Heh, can you imagine. Beachwood Place, La Palace, Legacy Village, I-271, Cleveland Clinic Beachwood, possibly the Jewish Federation Center, and then this Convention Center/Med Mart, all within walking distance! In Beachwood/Lyndhurst of all places!! I think UO would erupt. There's no rumor here btw - just thinking how funny it would be. Hell, if this were to occur, Cleveland would finally say enough is enough and we'd probably maybe see some regionalism.
August 5, 200816 yr Note the use of the world "old" convention center, rather than "current." I think using "old" slants the article to favor Tower City.....or maybe I'm just reading into this too much!!! p.s. The mall next door, a Nationally registered historic site? http://www.myfoxcleveland.com/myfox/pages/Home/Detail;jsessionid=6F8F400B9AB62CCBDB993B3CE7B2C55F?contentId=7133155&version=2&locale=EN-US&layoutCode=TSTY&pageId=1.1.1&sflg=1 I-Team Report: Site Committee Leans Toward Tower City as Medical Mart Location Last Edited: Monday, 04 Aug 2008, 7:57 PM EDT Created: Monday, 04 Aug 2008, 6:26 PM EDT We may be one step closer to knowing the location for the proposed Medical Mart and new convention center. Two sources tell the FOX 8 I-Team that a site selection committee is leaning towards recommending Tower City as the future home of the complex. The other location under consideration is at the site of the old convention center on Lakeside Avenue. The chairman of the site selection committee, Fred Nance, will neither confirm nor deny that Tower City is the preferred location. The final say on the location belongs to the County Commissioners Two weeks ago, the I-Team's Bill Sheil broke the story of money problems at both locations. At the old convention center site, the idea had been to dig underground to get the space needed. But not too far down is Lake Erie, and building in the water table in incredibly expensive. Planners could build out on the site, but that would mean destroying the mall next door - a nationally-registered historical site. At Tower City, the problem is what it would cost to build the infrastructure needed to support having a convention center located in the heart of downtown. Still, the Tower City site is reportedly come in below the figure for the old convention center site. A potential problem still exists: both sites are still being priced well above the roughly $400 million that will be raised by the quarter cent sales tax that was imposed last year by the County Commission to pay for the complex (Commissioner Peter Lawson Jones voted against the sales tax). Fred Nance may make a formal recommendation to the County Commission as soon as Thursday as to where to build the complex and how to pay for it.
August 5, 200816 yr Note the use of the world "old" convention center, rather than "current." I think using "old" slants the article to favor Tower City.....or maybe I'm just reading into this too much!!! p.s. The mall next door, a Nationally registered historic site? Yes, listed in 1975
August 5, 200816 yr Ok, so it's going to Tower City, as a lot of us expected but few of us wanted. I hope this spurs great ideas about what to do with the existing site.
August 5, 200816 yr There are too many malls, parks, plaza's, and public space in downtown Cleveland. 3 or so blocks at Public Square, 3 malls near that, the new plaza's on both sides of the Federal Building, the park at E. 12th, Willow Park, Voinovich Park, Settlers Landing, and whatever other parks I'm missing. I really wouldn't be upset if the Civic Center had one less mall and one more building in its place.
August 5, 200816 yr There is no way in h*ll that they'd build on top of the Malls. It would be cheaper, but they are not going to do it.
August 5, 200816 yr There are too many malls, parks, plaza's, and public space in downtown Cleveland. 3 or so blocks at Public Square, 3 malls near that, the new plaza's on both sides of the Federal Building, the park at E. 12th, Willow Park, Voinovich Park, Settlers Landing, and whatever other parks I'm missing. I really wouldn't be upset if the Civic Center had one less mall and one more building in its place. Please tell me you forgot to put a smiley or [/sarcasm] at the end of that post......
August 5, 200816 yr No, I didn't forget, why? There is way too much open public space in downtown. If the space was better utilized, then I'd see a cause to keep it preserved. But when I am downtown at 5:30pm walking to Browns Stadium from E. 9th and Lakeside, passing an empty Willow Park and an empty Mall A, B, and C, I ask myself, "if nobody uses this space during a busy Friday afternoon, pre-Browns event", then what is their purpose? Perhaps we should tear down the "old" convention center and build a Malls D and E. /sarcasm.
August 5, 200816 yr No, I didn't forget, why? There is way too much open public space in downtown. If the space was better utilized, then I'd see a cause to keep it preserved. But when I am downtown at 5:30pm walking to Browns Stadium from E. 9th and Lakeside, passing an empty Willow Park and an empty Mall A, B, and C, I ask myself, "if nobody uses this space during a busy Friday afternoon, pre-Browns event", then what is their purpose? Perhaps we should tear down the "old" convention center and build a Malls D and E. /sarcasm. You cannot be serious. The malls are protected so lets just move on. For a person to say they are not currently used, if they were to disappear lunch/after hours users and residents quality of life would deminished. It's the equivalent of closing your local park. the malls and public square were initially places where people went to stroll about. Now with a renewed energy for downtown living those spaces are prime. I think our downtown residents will have a completely different "view" of the parks than you bizbiz.
August 5, 200816 yr It's Willard Park. Oh, and the park discussion is off-topic. clevelandskyscrapers.com Cleveland Skyscrapers on Instagram
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