We are afterall paying for the damn thing.

Read the text that wraps the existing CC

 

A monument conceived as a tribute to the ideals of Cleveland ~ Builded by her citizens and dedicated to social progress, industrial achievement and civic interest ~ Patriotism Progress Culture

O.K. so ive been watching this project since day 1.. and i am worried. I think they chose a good site.. i mean the consensus around here was that it was the second best site.. lets just say hey at least its not on E 55 or the warehouse district! SO now we got this extremely visible huge building going in downtown. my question is.. who is going to design it? who is the architect? do they know yet? is there room in the budget for anyone.. decent?

Here is a question on hotels for those of you more in the know.  Since the center will be built behind TC, since there is little land there, and since there are two hotels already attached to TC, will a new hotel be built as part of the CC?  Everyone seemed to assume that if the CC was built at the old site, there would have been new hotels built nearby.  Is this off the board given the hotels are already attached to TC?

I still dont understand if the Tower City estimate includes the $40 million the county would have to pay for the site (I dont believe it does)?  If not, why?

 

Read the text that wraps the existing CC

 

A monument conceived as a tribute to the ideals of Cleveland ~ Builded by her citizens and dedicated to social progress, industrial achievement and civic interest ~ Patriotism Progress Culture

 

 

I think that is on Public Hall, not the CC... but I could be mistaken.

I still dont understand if the Tower City estimate includes the $40 million the county would have to pay for the site (I dont believe it does)?  If not, why?

 

 

It does not, which would have actually made it more expensive than the current site.

I still don't understand if the Tower City estimate includes the $40 million the county would have to pay for the site (I dint believe it does)?  If not, why?

 

Yes it does Willyboy. According to the GCP report acquisition estimates are as follows: TC site $40 million for 12 acres, CC site $17 million for 3 acres.

BETTER ACCESS TO DOWNTOWN's ASSETS?

 

What assets are those?

 

I personally like the current location for it's access to downtown assets, like Public Hall, Music Hall and the Little Theatres, Browns Stadium, the Great Lakes Science Center and OUR SIGNATURE TOURIST ATTRACTION--THE ROCK HALL OF FAME.

 

Now what assets are available near Tower City?

 

 

This may be a crazy idea, but why not build the convention center on the Scranton peninsula?  Then, connect it with a skyway over the Cuyahoga river to a new convention hotel behind Tower City?  The skyway could have movable walkways like they have at the airport. 

 

At this site, there would be more land (I think) to put the convention center on.  Also, the Scranton peninsula would be developed.

BETTER ACCESS TO DOWNTOWN's ASSETS?

 

What assets are those?

 

I personally like the current location for it's access to downtown assets, like Public Hall, Music Hall and the Little Theatres, Browns Stadium, the Great Lakes Science Center and OUR SIGNATURE TOURIST ATTRACTION--THE ROCK HALL OF FAME.

 

Now what assets are available near Tower City?

 

 

^To answer your question: The Q (i.e. Lebron), The Jake, Tower City, the attached hotels, the Med Mart, and 4th St. For the record, I supported the current site to be chosen.

 

Now, to address concerns over the future of the mall site if/when the TC site gets developed: this site would be perfect for a potential Amtrak/Ohio Hub/Commuter rail/Greyhound/RTA terminal due to it's proximity to rail lines, the shoreway, and major downtown thoroughfares. I think it makes perfect sense. It could be Cleveland's true intermodal hub of the future. I don't have stats, facts or figures; I don't expect this to happen anytime soon (next 5 yrs), but does anyone think that this couldn't work/is a bad idea?

 

 

 

Musky, Public Hall is part of the current convention center, along with the Music Hall.  (Wait, is music hall the right name?)

Musky, Public Hall is part of the current convention center, along with the Music Hall.  (Wait, is music hall the right name?)

 

Yes, I know that. But there was no CC there when Public Hall was built.

 

BETTER ACCESS TO DOWNTOWN's ASSETS?

 

What assets are those?

 

I personally like the current location for it's access to downtown assets, like Public Hall, Music Hall and the Little Theatres, Browns Stadium, the Great Lakes Science Center and OUR SIGNATURE TOURIST ATTRACTION--THE ROCK HALL OF FAME.

 

Now what assets are available near Tower City?

 

Well, namely, Tower City. And I'm really hoping all this new construction around it will help the mall since it's struggling so hard right now.

WTAM had an interview with Fred Nance today:

http://www.wtam.com/cc-common/mediaplayer/player.html?redir=yes&mps=WillsSnyder.php&mid=http://a1135.g.akamai.net/f/1135/30263/1h/cchannel.download.akamai.com/30263/1263/richmedia/8-8-Fred_Nance_1.mp3?CCOMRRMID=17926554&CPROG=RICHMEDIA&MARKET=CLEVELAND-OH&NG_FORMAT=newstalk&NG_ID=wtam1100am&OR_NEWSFORMAT=News/Talk&OWNER=1263&SERVER_NAME=www.wtam.com&SITE_ID=1263&STATION_ID=WTAM-AM&TRACK=fn1

 

Besides the promoting the easy rail access ("you could come to a convention and not even need a coat"), one thing Nance mentioned in this interview that I hadn't heard mentioned before is the speed of getting the Med Mart up in running.  The committee felt they could open the Med Mart a lot faster at the TC site since they Higbee bldg is already there and has had some upgrading.  At the CC site they'd have to design and erect the bldg from scratch which would take longer (or cost a bunch more to get done quickly).  Seems like a reasonable point.  Also implies that the MM would likely open separately from the new CC. 

 

BETTER ACCESS TO DOWNTOWN's ASSETS?

 

What assets are those?

 

I personally like the current location for it's access to downtown assets, like Public Hall, Music Hall and the Little Theatres, Browns Stadium, the Great Lakes Science Center and OUR SIGNATURE TOURIST ATTRACTION--THE ROCK HALL OF FAME.

 

Now what assets are available near Tower City?

 

 

 

ah...yeah, you might start with Tower City, itself which is more of an attraction than Public Hall... Then, you might consider our (indoor-connected) Gateway sports complex; I'm sure the Q will serve many MM/CC-related functions.  Then, there's Public Square, hub and front door of the City.  You might have also opened your eyes and seen E. 4th Street 2 blocks to the East, and the Warehouse District, 2 blocks to the West, our 2 major hubs of downtown living, eating and nightlife.  And across the street from E.4th's entrance, is the historic and beautiful, must-see Arcade... And as for that leading Rock Hall you mentioned, Tower City has the Waterfront Line Rapid running from its basement connecting to the Rock Hall/N.Coast Harbor -- as well as stopping at the rising, potential packed Flats East Bank... (and for that matter, short Rapid hops to Ohio City/WSM, Shaker Square and Univ. Circle...

 

Hope that answers your Q. Cleburger.

Besides the promoting the easy rail access ("you could come to a convention and not even need a coat"), one thing Nance mentioned in this interview that I hadn't heard mentioned before is the speed of getting the Med Mart up in running. The committee felt they could open the Med Mart a lot faster at the TC site since they Higbee bldg is already there and has had some upgrading. At the CC site they'd have to design and erect the bldg from scratch which would take longer (or cost a bunch more to get done quickly).   Seems like a reasonable point. Also implies that the MM would likely open separately from the new CC.

 

 

Myself and other TC advocates have been saying this from the beginning and is possibly THE best reason for TC.

Current CC's site is just as central to all those things.  But we're rehashing the same old argument here. 

 

I wonder how much it will cost to redevelop the current Mall site.  And what is going to happen to the Music Hall?  These are big questions left unanswered by the TC proposal.

A couple of points in response:

 

1.  Is East 4th and the Warehouse District really any further away from the existing site than a site behind Tower City? 

 

2.  Convention-goers do not use light rail.  Have a look at the cab stand outside of McCormick Place.  The train line may appeal to a few convention goers, but mainly for employees.  Attendees are usually on expense accounts and hop a cab for the quick trip to the airport.

The more I read these, the more I realize that your average concerned citizen (like the posters on this board) are as in the dark as our politicians on the tickings of the convention business.

 

What was the last convention you attended that utilized a NBA arena as a part of its show floor?  It rarely happens due to availability of these buildings and cost-square footage ratios.  A convention that could afford the rent would not be able to find an open window of availability large enough to let them have the arena for unrestricted access without interference from a team tenant or other event.

 

What are the biggest "tourist" draws and site of many corporate parties ALREADY going on downtown?  The Rock Hall and Great Lakes Science Center ALREADY host many corporate functions and events.  It would be a natural extension to have a pedestrian tunnel/bridge and hotel complex near these venues where convention planners are going to gravitate towards anyway.  Ever drive by the Rock Hall late at night and wonder what the party going on is?  Chances are it's some boring corporate rental and not your favorite rock star hanging out.... 

 

And for those of you who insist rail access has anything at all to do with convention site selection (which it doesn't), couldn't we just drop our convention-goers out the back door to the waterfront line if we made use of the existing site?

Convention center and medical mart at Tower City is no cause for rejoicing

Posted by Steven Litt/Plain Dealer Architecture Critic

August 08, 2008 17:21PM

 

The proposal to locate a new convention center along the Cuyahoga River, connected to a medical mart inside Tower City Center, appears to settle one of the biggest city-planning questions Cleveland has faced in decades.

 

That's good because it finally clears the way to action. If the city and county are going to build the new facilities, they should do it soon. But the Tower City location would create as many problems as it solves. It's no cause for rejoicing...

 

http://blog.cleveland.com/architecture/2008/08/the_proposal_to_locate_a.html

^^ I'm going to play devil's advocate to one part of Litt's article.

 

Wouldn't the functions of the skywalks promote conventions in Cleveland in the winter...kinda like Minneapolis' many, many skywalks in their downtown protect people from the cold winds there. I know Cleveland dosen't get nearly as cold as Minneapolis in the winter, but it is certainly sees a lot of snow compared to most other American cities and it can be difficult to walk even a few blocks when the lake effect is in full gear.

 

I'm not promoting the skywalks idea (I think it's a street life killer as well), I'm just thinking FC and the county or whoever supports this blueprint will probably use the argument to promote that part of the plan.

Medical mart's cost jumps $136 million, tax revenue estimate rises $90 million

 

Posted by Joe Guillen August 08, 2008 22:44PM

Categories: Business, Business Impact, Impact, Medical Mart, News Impact

 

Cleveland's new medical mart and convention center will cost $136 million more than advertised, and last year's sales tax increase to pay for the project will generate -- all of a sudden -- $90 million more than expected.

 

 

http://www.cleveland.com/medical/wide/index.ssf?/medical/wide/080908_medmart.htm

There's still a lot of hidden infrastructure costs involved in the Tower city plan. 

 

Will the city/county need to build additional parking garages?  What are the costs of altering access roads and is the costs associated with the various tubes and tunnels part of this plan?

 

  The energy costs of a wide open exposed CC sprawling all over the place are surely higher than the energy costs of one sunk into the ground.

 

What is the life expectancy of a high rise tower?  As this CC gets tacked onto the monolithic TC will there need to be some buildings in the complex brought down in the next 20 years or so?  Are high-rises designed in the 1920s and built in the 1930s expected to last beyond 100 years? 

 

 

^I'm no engineer but I believe with proper maintenance those buildings can last centuries.

 

 

I'm getting a little confused on who the developer would be on this project. Is it MMPI, FCE, or the county which I highly doubt?

god i hope we never build walkways. look at charlotte. THEY KILL A CITY!

 

i think a few is ok.. kind of like subways but without the trains haha maybe if we build a mini london tube-esque system of magnetically powered people movers... :)

 

anyways im glad we dont have too many walkways. its cold in the winter.. wear a coat.

 

1. im mad forest city is not doing anything with scranton

 

2. they havent chosen a designer/architect yet. that scares me.

 

3. if this is done right its going to be a huge success for the city of cleveland. dont screw it up guys! im gonna keep my eye on this one

1. can you blame them? The site prep and the environmental clean up costs must be huge for Scranton Peninsula. The density and price points necessary to make a profit on a SP project are probably not realistic at this point. When downtown begins to lose its surface lots to new residential, then you'll see such a project make economic sense for a developer. Too many people think that FCE is some sort of non-profit that should do whatever the public wishes. Corporations don't work that way. The directors would get sued and they'd all lose their jobs.

 

2. this is the second time that you said that it scares you that an architect has not been hired yet. Do you think that one should have been hired at this point? I think that it is premature. Once the site is finalized, then they'll going to start on design work.

 

3. amen

edit

That's a nightmarish thought. Take one of the city's most beautiful buildings and poke a gerbil tube into its facade

OH HELL NO!

 

Chicago has much worse weather.  If this is the plan, I hope it never gets built.

^The walkways would never happen. What the h*ll are those guys thinking?? Some of it doesn't even make sense--connect TC to E.4th over Euclid??? Not going to happen. Spend those millions on finding a better use for the current convention center site.

 

I wish that he'd release more images of FCE's designs of the CC. The main convention space is spread out over two floors--that is the worst part of this plan.

 

Too many details are left undescribed at this point. HQ hotel?

 

I'm glad that TCE will not be increasing its retail offerings. We don't need more retail buried in this mall. Improve what you have and then let the excess demand spill into the WHD and onto Euclid and Prospect.

http://blog.cleveland.com/architecture/2008/08/the_proposal_to_locate_a.html

 

 

 

Worse still, backers of the convention center and medical mart proposal want to build a large new system of underground and overhead walkways to connect the new facilities at Tower City Center to the rest of downtown.

 

That's truly creepy.

 

The report released yesterday by civic leaders who recommended the Tower City location said that an efficient system of walkways "would be the only one in the country that could allow the business traveler from the airport to come directly to the new convention/medical mart complex and related amenities without confronting a challenging climate at any time during the year."

 

 

That quote makes me want to vomit in my mouth.

lol 3231 I already posted that Steven Litt commentary article on the previous page, with the graphics. Can we get rid of one of them?

lol 3231 I already posted that Steven Litt commentary article on the previous page, with the graphics. Can we get rid of one of them?

 

oops, sorry. I'll get rid of mine.

The walkways idea, as far as that proposal goes, is poor, imo.

The new version of the convention center at TC, while preliminary, seems OK to me, but its hard to see if that layout will afford enough exhibit/meeting space.

I really hope that more public meetings are held, and planners are included in the process before the final decision is made.

Too many people think that FCE is some sort of non-profit that should do whatever the public wishes. Corporations don't work that way. The directors would get sued and they'd all lose their jobs.

 

You are correct that the directors' first duty is to the shareholders, but benefit to the community can be taken into account as a factor in any decision without violating that fiduciary duty.  Certainly not the sole factor, but a factor nonetheless.

 

On the walkway issue, there needs to be some indoor connectivity, but mainly between the MM and the CC.... I just hope they don't over do it by adding other connections.  What needs to be done is better signage leading the way to the City's attractions.

Yeah, I don't see the board of large convention saying, "well gee, where do we want to go this year? Well I'd really love to be able to spend 100% indoors and not take my coat."

Does anyone know if the FCE proposal resolves the old infrastructure issues. From a 2005 PD article ("Tower City figures don't match") posted here:

http://www.urbanohio.com/forum2/index.php/topic,1782.240.html

 

"In a recently completed comparison of the two sites, however, the city's planning commission cites upgrades that may be needed to maintain traffic flow around a riverfront center. For example:

 

"Reconstructing the closed Eagle Avenue viaduct for truck and car traffic could cost $11.5 million. (Forest City estimates the cost at $7.5 million.)

 

"Widening and reconstructing Canal Road could cost $10.1 million. (Forest City estimates $1.8 million.)

 

"Improving interstate access to the West Third Street and Canal Road area could cost $14 million. (Forest City's estimates did not include this element.)

 

"Accommodating additional traffic may require purchasing property on the west side of Ontario Street between Carnegie Avenue and Huron Road. (Cost estimates not available.) "

Piling on...

 

Roldo Bartimole says that just the interest on the bonds for the $528 million will push the cost to Cuyahoga taxpayers over $1 billion.

 

"The cost is $526 million to be financed by the quarter-percent sales tax added by Commissioners Tim Hagan, Jimmy Dimora and Peter Lawson Jones without a vote by the public. (Jones didn't vote for it because they didn't need his vote but he's for it now. The same goes for his November opponent Bay Village Republican Mayor Deborah Sutherland whose dodgy advice is to be "extremely careful" with the deal, but she is not opposed to the project.)

 

That $526 million will not appear magically. Cuyahoga County will have to borrow the money (most of it - $461 million - needed quickly for construction). With interest until 2027 - duration of the bonds - we will have paid likely double - or nearly double - the $526-million.

 

There's your Billion dollars, folks. "

 

http://www.coolcleveland.com/index.php?n=Main.StoryNotAvailableAtOurBoughtNewsmedia

 

He raises some interesting points to go along with the questions raised above by other posters.  How is the water table being addressed at the riverfront site?  How was it addressed at Browns stadium, closer to the lake than the current convention center?  MMPI is only taking over two floors of the Higbee building -- how many jobs will that really create and is there an asbestos problem with the Higbee building?  This last question is disturbing because Nance didn't seem to know about asbestos in the Higbee building but thinks the county should pay to renovate the space for MMPI.

 

Finally, he makes a great point -- perhaps the county sales tax is better spent on RTA than MMPI & Forest City.

 

 

"Finally, he makes a great point -- perhaps the county sales tax is better spent on RTA than MMPI & Forest City".

 

The more I read about this, and with the economic stormclouds looking pretty ominous on the horizon, I'm beginning to feel the same way. How much convention business will there really be with airlines continuing to fail/raising prices, the continuing unwinding of the absolute mess Wall St & the Fed have made in the financial markets, and the overall poor health of the economy. I'm probably going to get skewered on here for saying this, but so be it.

 

Where could $500+ million be best spent to maximize the benefits to CLEVELANDERS?

 

Let's not become too short sighted. Economic conditions are cyclical, so today things may be rough, but tomorrow may be a better day. I'm  not trying to be overly optimistic. In my opinion, the MM may is not a silver bullet, but it will brand Cleveland as a medical industry hub. The potential spinoffs could be greater than the MM itself. Also, Roldo may a Cleveland legend, but it does not matter the project, Roldo always finds something wrong.  To be honest, I have never read a Roldo piece that supports a public project like this. As for maximzing the benefit for Clevelanders, I'm really not sure what project could do that. Maybe better funding for the RTA? Here is the reality: Cleveland needs to position itself in the global economy and the healthcare industry is our best bet.  However, I do have some deep concerns about this project.

To maximize benefits to Clevelanders, the only way to go is with the old facility.  Clean it up, rehab it, put in the med mart and let's get the conventions coming.  If in 10 years it's an out-of-the park hit, we can put up the new facility.  Thanks to your politicians, we've all become Sim-City residents.  Build it and they will come.  Hooray! 

"Finally, he makes a great point -- perhaps the county sales tax is better spent on RTA than MMPI & Forest City".

 

The more I read about this, and with the economic stormclouds looking pretty ominous on the horizon, I'm beginning to feel the same way. How much convention business will there really be with airlines continuing to fail/raising prices, the continuing unwinding of the absolute mess Wall St & the Fed have made in the financial markets, and the overall poor health of the economy. I'm probably going to get skewered on here for saying this, but so be it.

 

Where could $500+ million be best spent to maximize the benefits to CLEVELANDERS?

 

 

Yeah, that's right.  To hell with all those tourist and out-of-towners.  Lets close all the hotels; maybe the airport.  Make 'em show ID when they board RTA vehicles and, well, if they're not from Cleveland... 'You're outta here!'... Cleveland for Clevelanders!

Well, at least you weren't overly dramatic in your response to a genuinely good point. :roll:

 

I think its a good point to question the viability of a half billion+ dollar investment into an industry that is likely to take a serious hit given structural changes in the economy.  Given the future prospects on oil prices and the effect that has on travel, will we have a viable convention industry in 10 years?  That's a good question to ask.

Ok, is Litt misreading these skybridge ideas (they are horrible)?  How in the hell could there possibly be a need to have a bridge crossing over to E4th and there being a bridge landing in front of the Arcade?

I think that Litt loses some legitimacy with this critique. He over-emphasizes or misrepresents some of the smaller points in order to make a case against the project as a whole. I just want to know whose apartment on E.4th is going to have a walkway straight to the Arcade.

Litt obviously preferred the Mall site to, perhaps, satisfy the historical vision of the Mall as a functioning civic place.  Nothing wrong with that.  Daniel Burnham was a visionary as was Mayor Tom L. Johnson for carrying through Dan's plan – unlike no civic cluster in America outside of Washington, D.C.... But guys like Litt get ensnared by history too.  He often doesn't factor in the organic process of change that happens in every person (and a city is really a collective person)... It's like his argument for saving the Breuer Tower -- not because it is a potentially valuable skyscraper, but simply because it was Cleveland's only building Breuer built.... Likewise, Litt has tacitly bemoaned the Mall was never "finished" by not crowning it with the never-built passenger rail terminal... but did he consider a Cleveland with now Terminal Tower/Terminal Group (now TC), and probably no rapid transit, or Shaker Heights, or Shaker Square, etc.  Would Cleveland be better off without those things just to say we “completed” the Mall and, in so doing, blocked lakefront views and created the freight/passenger rail bottleneck that planners of the time warned of? .. The scale and uses of convention centers are a lot different than when Public Hall was built in the 1920s as is the transportation system – now, mostly jet airplanes rather than steam trains – to transport conventioneers into the town.

 

At the very least, Litt has the intellectual flexibility recognize the scaled back MM/TC plan has more potential for a positive visual statement than the top-heavy old plan he despised.  He's a very bright guy; one of the PD's better writers imho, and Lord knows, as much as we get mad with his sometimes negative barbs, we need a smart, non-native POV like his.  It's just sometimes his high intellect gets the best of him; paints him into a corner.

 

Unbelieveable--the Tower City Convention Center could quite easily be the largest boondoggle in modern Cleveland history being pushed through by a group of commissioners who are under Federal investigation for corruption.  Yet no posts on this topic in the last 5 days....unreal!  :whip:

Barring any new developments, what else can be said that wasn't in the previous 77 pages?

^^Did I miss something?  When did Peter Lawson Jones and Tim Hagan become part of a federal investigation?

Good point. That was a sloppy statement by cleburger.