^You're in DC. ;-)

Yeah..... :-D

Ive been out of town and away form the computer for a while, but when did the expected revenue from the tax hike go from 400+ million to 800+ million?

Ive been out of town and away form the computer for a while, but when did the expected revenue from the tax hike go from 400+ million to 800+ million?

 

If it did, it is likely a "guesstimate".  :laugh:

That surprised me as well.  I meant to go to Tuesday's meeting, but forgot, and I won't be able to go to Thursday's.  I hope they do schedule a third meeting in Cleveland.

Looking at their layout they have a 10-15 story trade show exhibit then? The article stated they were only going to have a permanent on site exhibit is that different then trade shows which get new technological items etc.

 

This is from their website -  "WPC provides health technology vendors a dynamic environment and a state-of the-art technology platform to showcase their products and interact with decision makers and the broader healthcare industry."

 

If they're housing the vendors that come up with new technologies, what's the difference where they display them; in their office or next door at Javitz? It seems to me that this is why the folks in Chicago want an adjoining convention facility.

 

Don't know what to make of the numbers in the article, and it seems like this meeting did nothing to clarify which site should be chosen.

 

BTW if they hold a public meeting in Vegas I'm there.  :-D

^Corner Peter Lawson Jones about what?  Give me a short list of some questions and Ill give him a ring.

True. If you want to corner anyone, corner Hagan and Dimora.

I think PLJ is using Roldo math

I read an editorial or perhaps letter to the editor in Crain's that made a point that at least got me thinking= if we rebuild on the same site, will we have to close down the Convention Center for 2-3 years?  If so, how much $$$ could we possibly lose?  Sure, some events might be moved to the IX Center (ugh), but many could be lost to other cities.  And, when our new Convention Center was done, how many would come back?  Impact could be greater than just a couple years of lost shows. 

 

Yes, I know, so we lose a couple of years for 50 good years in the right spot that helps all of Cleveland.  I just thought it was an interesting point and one to consider.

^Corner Peter Lawson Jones about what? Give me a short list of some questions and Ill give him a ring.

 

Oh nothing then.  I guess I imagined the 82 pages of input here...

 

And no kidding about Hagan and Dimora, but they havent exactly made themselves available now have they. 

Is PLJ and Nance not also part of the process and therefore as liable for making the right decision?

 

keeeping the current site makes a covered Browns Stadium more conceivable and feasible, right? 

^ ha. you wonder if forest city owned it!

Quote:Oh nothing then.  I guess I imagined the 82 pages of input here...

 

To reply to this I cite my earlier post: "Give me a short list of some questions and Ill give him a ring."

 

Seriously, PLJ was my little league baseball coach for years, his son is a friend of mine that I graduated with and Mr. Jones would be happy to field my questions directly if I had a SHORT well articulated question set.  Boil them down and instead of mind reading I'll call him.

 

Tower City may indeed be cheaper, however it will also collect less revenue.  Forest City will collect all parking revenues at Tower City.  The taxpayers would collect the revenue from parking at the Mall site.  Parking revenues can easily add up to several million per year.  Only some folks will be coming to town via the Rapid/Hopkins.  Millions more will be driving.  The parking revenues are going to account for far more cash for FCE than the additional revenues they reap from their mall.  I hope that somebody in the media picks up on this. FCE wants $40 million for the air rights to build above their land and they want to build their own additional parking garages underneath the convention center.  That is a poor deal for the county.

 

Since when do conventioneers park at local parking lots. I sure don't. i walk from the hotel (if not already attached) to the CC... no matter what city i go to one in. Did you know San Fran's Mascone Center does not even have a parking garage/lot?

 

Can't use the local show's excuse either, since they mostly go to the IX Center (for now).

I"m disgusted!

 

This has scandal written all over it.  I pray the city planning commission downs this!

 

I'm so upset I can't even discuss this!

 

:whip:

3. I don't want renderings, site plans, or hard numbers from Clvndr.  I want them from the Convention Authority that is saying that we are saving money by going with a different site.  That should be a part of the planning process.  Instead they've put on blinders to the larger planning issues that the TC site raises in order to make the argument for that site.  And yes, I do think that is intentional on their part.

 

 

The CFA does not exist anymore.

Well - sounds like its coming together with the decision.  I wrote back in March (on page 57 of this thread) that I thought the Tower City site made pretty good sense.  I actually was in Cleveland last weekend - so I got to see the downtown and its layout.  That visit did show me that things have changed since I had last been to Cleveland (about seven years earlier).  The warehouse district was hopping with the Boston College / Kent State game going on.  There was an Indians game going on and lots of people eating at the restaurants in the warehouse district.  Seeing how things are now - I can see how the old convention site could have worked fairly well as well - but I think I'll stick with most of the comments made in my previous post - that the TC site will work best.  Hopefully with a great architect - putting together a fantastic design, they will figure out how to make it work well and look good in that site.   

 

On the page previous to this one - someone was asking for evidence of a convention center that brings foot traffic.  Well - as a few posters stated - Indianapolis is definitely a place where the convention center adds a lot of foot traffic to the downtown streets.  A few weeks ago - the GenCon gaming convention was in town - with about 25,000 people attending.  They filled all of the hotel rooms downtown and many more in the surrounding parts of the city.  The convention was a 24 hour, round the clock one.  These people were out all the time - walking the streets, eating at the many restaurants and going to the many bars.  With Indy's convention center expansion now under way - the number of huge conventions is only going to increase.    The center will be big enough (in 2010) to host back to back conventions - with a 10,000 person convention using half of the center during the first half of the week - and then, after setting up during the previous few days, a second convention with 12,000 people will start, beginning as soon as the previous one closes.  And then once or twice a month - having a huge 30,000 - 50,000 person convention come in to fill up the city.  This was part of the plan for the expansion - to allow the flow of conventioneers to be more "steady".  Instead of three busy days per week and then four slow days, the back-to-back arrangement will keep things continuously busy for the many bars and restaurants.  There is no doubt that these huge conventions have a major impact on downtown street life and business at the mall, other stores, restaurants, bars, museums, etc.

 

It doesn't look like the Cleveland convention center will be as large as the Indpls center - so it won't be able to draw the same huge numbers of conventioneers.  Still - conventioneers will be walking the streets.  Only a few strange conventioneers would stay inside the Tower City Complex, their hotel and the convention center the entire time.  One thing that could be an issue though, is that it could be difficult to do any future expansions.  The site obviously is very tight.  I guess there could possibly be something across the river in the future - so maybe that would be a possibility.  Some type of nice pedestrian bridge across the river might then be necessary.  Anyway - I'll keep checking in to see how this thing is progressing.  Glad to see it looks like the site decision has finally been made.  (or is that not quite final yet? - its always hard to tell until construction actually starts.)  Good luck.

I"m disgusted!

 

This has scandal written all over it. I pray the city planning commission downs this!

 

I'm so upset I can't even discuss this!

 

:whip:

 

I'm with you.

I"m disgusted!

 

This has scandal written all over it. I pray the city planning commission downs this!

 

I'm so upset I can't even discuss this!

 

:whip:

 

The Planning Commissioners approved the existing site of the convention center back in 2004 for a new convention center.  This is what happens when people with money begin making civic decisions (Tower City site) when compared to people that have been in the planning field for years (Existing site).  The Planning Commission's site planning will once again be made null and void by the County Commissioner's decisions.  Sound familiar (Breuer Tower)?

e Th has been in a long time.  enhances it's own property and that which it controls in the surrounding area and the Flats. What ever 'savings' are gained will be lost when something has to be done with the Mall. The County Admin. Bldg. has out grown itself. It will have to be moved. . They will then offer to' help us out' of the Mall problem, in a few years, by taking off the city's hands at a bargain basement price, IF the taxpayer puts up some more money,tax abatements,eminent domain etc. One would almost have to be blind not to see what has  transpired with a nod and a wink. They think ethical is a kind of gasoline for burning taxpayers.

^ha!

 

one of the best first posts ever!

Members say...

 

“

When I compare what FOREST CITY ENTERPRISES PAYS for membership in THE GREATER CLEVELAND PARTNERSHIP with the dues we pay to other trade organizations and business associations, I see greater value in the GCP. The GCP’s focus on improving our community, the impact it makes AND THE BENEFITS MY COMPANY RECEIVES ALL MAKE OUR DUES A WISE INVESTMENT.

 

        ”

Charles A. Ratner

GCP Board Member

President & CEO, Forest City Enterprises, Inc.

Welcome GreenerPastures!

 

It was the same sort of suspicion of FCE's motives that got me to sign up and post for the first time right here in this thread. I remember reading the Ratner quote in you're 2nd post, along with another comment of his that suggested FCE would not invest in cities that were not experiencing population growth (I'm paraphrasing). How can you not question their motives.

Can someone clear something up for me...I distinctly remember hearing and reading that the new convention center, wherever it is built, it would not be sizeable enough to handle larger events, such as the auto show, and that would necessitate KEEPING the IX Center.

 

Is this correct?

 

If so, my question is, will a billion dollar investment in a new center be worth it if those large shows are not going to be brought downtown anyway?

Can someone clear something up for me...I distinctly remember hearing and reading that the new convention center, wherever it is built, it would not be sizeable enough to handle larger events, such as the auto show, and that would necessitate KEEPING the IX Center.

 

Is this correct?

 

If so, my question is, will a billion dollar investment in a new center be worth it if those large shows are not going to be brought downtown anyway?

 

I remember as a child going to see things like; the Auto Show, Autorama, and Boat show, and all were held at the downtown convention center (dating myself). I'm not exactly sure why they stopped using the CC.

 

MM has made it clear they need a modern convention facility. If we want the MM then we must make the investment. Should it turn out to be as high as you suggest, then it will simply take a little longer to get the return. This is about establishing Cleveland as a hub of the health care industry, if not the leading center, and that IMO should pay hefty dividends to the local economy.

Tower City may indeed be cheaper, however it will also collect less revenue.  Forest City will collect all parking revenues at Tower City.  The taxpayers would collect the revenue from parking at the Mall site.  Parking revenues can easily add up to several million per year.  Only some folks will be coming to town via the Rapid/Hopkins.  Millions more will be driving.  The parking revenues are going to account for far more cash for FCE than the additional revenues they reap from their mall.  I hope that somebody in the media picks up on this. FCE wants $40 million for the air rights to build above their land and they want to build their own additional parking garages underneath the convention center.  That is a poor deal for the county.

 

Since when do conventioneers park at local parking lots. I sure don't. i walk from the hotel (if not already attached) to the CC... no matter what city i go to one in. Did you know San Fran's Mascone Center does not even have a parking garage/lot?

 

From the August 19, 2008 PD article "Forest City officials support Medical Mart but want fair deal", "Forest City CEO Charles Ratner acknowledged that Tower City will get a boost with a medical mart and convention center on the site. But selling the land will create other expenses for the company, including a new, $25 million parking facility to replace spaces lost through construction of the project." http://blog.cleveland.com/metro/2008/08/forest_city_officials_support/print.html

 

At a cost of $15k-20K per space, Forest City therefore plans to build about 1,500 spaces in a garage.  That is a lot of parking.  Also, people staying at the as-yet-to-be-announced attached hotel will be parking at TC.  People staying at the Ritz and/or Renaissance will park at TC.  The new hotel will also be leasing and/or buying the land across the street from MK, next to the Fed courthouse.  I did consulting for FC on this project and I know that they intend to generate additional revenues from parking. 

 

Look at the way Ratner phrased it.  He makes it sound as if selling a chunk of land for $40 million is an inconvenience since it will "create additional expenses" for the company!  FC is taking advantage of their resource (land) and selling it for cash to somebody (the county) that will hope folks from out of town use it and stay at TC's hotels, eat at TC's restaurants, shop at TC's stores and pay to park in TC's garages which are conveniently located adjacent/underneath all of that other stuff.  FC should pay the county for putting a convention center there.

 

Also, MMPI gets to lease their space in the Higbee building for $1 per year, but since the value of commercial buildings is basically based on their ability to produce income, the space that MMPI would occupy is therefore "worthless."  That will be the argument to Frank Russo come tax time.  Sweet deal.  Since Key is not going to bring a publicly-subsidized half-billion dollar building with them when they leased space at Higbee's, they have to pay a lot more for the space which will pay taxes, of course. 

 

I hear you about San Fran, but if you go to C-bus you can park in the lot right across the street from the conv. center like I did last time I was there for a convention.  Parking is a source of revenue the county will be handing to FC to provide since the county isn't intending to do it themselves.  If they are really interested in benefitting the public with walkways, they could build one over/under Ontario /Huron intersection where it is an 8-lane wide pedestrian nightmare from the publicly subsidized Gateway garage north of Huron and attach that to the convention center.

Interesting post, Pete. I'm formulating my position with each new post I read. Yours was one of the most informative.

 

If they are really interested in benefitting the public with walkways, they could build one over/under Ontario /Huron intersection where it is an 8-lane wide pedestrian nightmare from the publicly subsidized Gateway garage north of Huron and attach that to the convention center.

 

Why not just use the existing Gateway/Tower City walkway? It could directly connect to the parking garage by sending a stairwell/elevator up from the walkway to the level of the overhead walkways to the gateway garages.

 

If Forest City opposes such a linkage, then we'll get a clearer indication that the parking situation with the proposed convention center is an FCE scam.

From what I can gather so far, the DNC and RNC did not generate much additional income for their host cities.  Yes those are large conventions, but will conventioneers on a smaller scale really shop and eat and sightsee in Cleveland or will they stay underground. Is there not still a better way (bigger bang for our buck) to spend the tax money; and why can't Cleve expect what NYC is apparently getting, privately funded Med Mart.

 

Also asking, did anyone attend Thursday's mtg/forum held by Lawson Jones on the topic of the Convention Center? If so, what did you take away from it?

^ "and why can't Cleve expect what NYC is apparently getting, privately funded Med Mart."

 

My best guess is that because the privately funded MM in NYC is being proposed for a site adjacent to an existing convention facility (Javitz Center) there is no need for a publicly funded CC. MMPI of Chicago is contributing 19 million but I'm unsure if that's towards the CC or the project as a whole. It's a question I've had for a while but answers don't seem to be coming from this newly "open and transparent process"

 

 

yeah, the manhattan med mart is to be in a whole new privately developed building next to the javits cc (i think it's the site where the last incarnation of the copacabana was, which is kitty corner on the sw of the javits). it's supposed to start "early 2009." i'll keep an eye out for news and if and when it happens.

 

also, it's worth noting that overall there is a $260 billion global market for medical devices and diagnostics. so this business is definately a big, big deal.

 

 

 

 

From what I can gather so far, the DNC and RNC did not generate much additional income for their host cities.  Yes those are large conventions, but will conventioneers on a smaller scale really shop and eat and sightsee in Cleveland or will they stay underground. Is there not still a better way (bigger bang for our buck) to spend the tax money; and why can't Cleve expect what NYC is apparently getting, privately funded Med Mart.

 

Also asking, did anyone attend Thursday's mtg/forum held by Lawson Jones on the topic of the Convention Center? If so, what did you take away from it?

 

I'd like to ask where you got your information?  I was in Denver and the first day in the Twin Cities the first day and every hotel was picked and restaurants were filled and over flowing.

 

I've been to Denver many times and it was packed.  Im sure there was a bump in the local economy.  You have to realize, and im sure you do that, pre and post prep also pumps a lot of $$$ into the local economy.

They were predicting a 160 mil boom in Denver which is what I expected, but I was reading Denver articles that said due to traffic jams locals stayed away and the numbers for the local businesses were the same. I didn't save articles, if I find them I will post them here - 

I also would imagine that Denver incurred some serious security expenses. But I read that Denver received some federal funds to help cover those expenses.

Hattip to Brewed Fresh Daily for this article http://tinyurl.com/69qq9z

featuring an opinion about Pittsburgh allegedly ignoring warnings from Carnegie Mellon about their Conv. Ctr. plans/costs and now they are averaging, according to the article, almost a $4 mil deficit per year.

 

 

This inconvenient fact was featured prominently in a report, ``Space Available: The Realities of Convention Centers as Economic Development Strategy,'' by Heywood Sanders, a professor in the Department of Public Administration at the University of Texas at San Antonio. The report was published by the Brookings Institution in January.

 

More Space

 

"At the same time that the business has been shrinking -- which it was even before the Sept. 11 terrorist attacks -- convention and convention center hotel space has been expanding. Since 1990, exhibit space has increased 50 percent, to 61 million square feet, according to Sanders, and more is coming.

 

It doesn't take a genius to figure out that more convention centers chasing fewer and smaller shows equals a glut. What we don't know is if another four-letter word is on the horizon for this business: bust."

 

What is needed is a mid- sized center with charm and a feeling of open spaces surrounded by interesting venues and neighborhoods within a modest walking distance. That would be the Mall site. The Q and Progressive Field are not 7 day a week venues. The Lakefront is superior view to  Scranton Road.

I agree Greenpastures, 100%. And I still say if it's going to be profitable, private monies should be willing to fund it. If we have to foot so much of the bill, that red flags it that private developers and investors are not so sure it's a profitable venture. 

I agree Greenpastures, 100%. And I still say if it's going to be profitable, private monies should be willing to fund it. If we have to foot so much of the bill, that red flags it that private developers and investors are not so sure it's a profitable venture.

 

I disagree. Cities don't invest in convention centers so that the center itself will pull a profit. They invest in them because they believe that the hotel and restaurant business (and others) will see increased revenues. Therefore, the employment and tax base will increase, making it a worthwhile investment for the city.

Hey carolecohen

Most convention centers receive some amount of public subsidy. Their value is to the city's image and the monies it brings to the surrounding venues. I believe in Cleveland and I think it would have it's widest impact at it's present location on the Mall. There are federal funds available, due to it's historic nature, that are unavailable at TC because they have already been used. There is also a state tax credit program which will have money available again in a couple years. To locate it at TC will overly benefit FCE to the detriment of many other small businesses and development in the greater downtown area. Private investment will not go near this, too much risk. There will be public risk that needs to be weighed against the overall perception of the city and surrounding area.

 

Safe Harbor Language

 

Statements made that state the Company's or management's intentions, hopes, beliefs, expectations or predictions of the future are forward-looking statements. The Company's actual results could differ materially from those expressed or implied in such forward-looking statements due to various risks, uncertainties and other factors.

 

This is why the Greater Cleveland Partnership is very careful to speak of projection, anticipation, we expect, we believe and our estimates. I refer to it as a pig in a poke.

The TC site is a 'cliff hanger'. GCP's job is to sell it on behalf of FCE period. They have done nothing but promote FCE's original position from the beginning. GCP is far from a neutral mediator on this and there is no advocacy on behalf of the Mall Site by city officials($$$) of the citizens property. This process is a scam. Simply observe the interlocking relationships between the 'selection committee" of the Greater Cleveland Partnership and their principle. Public risk belongs on public property. There is no need to acquire a"40 million dollar" piece of Forest City's.

  Eseman and Baxendale said that they had developed drawings showing how a 200,000-square-foot Medical Mart would fit well between the west side of the Mall and Ontario Street, just south of the existing county office building.

 

They declined to release the drawings, saying that the Greater Cleveland Partnership wouldn't allow it. Baxendale said that Joe Roman,1/2 million dollar, president of the partnership, put him "on a tight leash" when it came to sharing information publicly.

 

Osborn Engineering says they find the Mall site perfectly suitable should that be what the commissioners decide.

 

GCP's sole purpose has been to promote FCE's long standing position and disparage the Mall Site. They always talk of its poor condition and they are right. The rest of the story is it could be a jewel on the lake. The next pitch will be IF things go well FCE will develop Scranton. ( with more of someone else's money no doubt)

 

You will find FCE 'sleepers' on all forums. Listen for the lullaby.

Sorry for excessive posts. I am new.

  Eseman and Baxendale said that they had developed drawings showing how a 200,000-square-foot Medical Mart would fit well between the west side of the Mall and Ontario Street, just south of the existing county office building.

 

They declined to release the drawings, saying that the Greater Cleveland Partnership wouldn't allow it. Baxendale said that Joe Roman,1/2 million dollar, president of the partnership, put him "on a tight leash" when it came to sharing information publicly.

 

Osborn Engineering says they find the Mall site perfectly suitable should that be what the commissioners decide.

 

Where are you hearing this from? I don't want to develop an opinion of your rumor comment till I know where it came from.

I did not hear it. I read it in the Pee D. Architectural Critic S. Litt. . It is a direct quote from the article with the addition of !/2 Million which is not exactly true. It is in the very high $400,000(480 ?) range. I do not recall the exact dollar figure, please forgive me. It too is a matter of public record. The engineer from Osborn was at the 1st and 2nd public meetings and so stated. The water table 'issue' is a red herring, any construction company who has done this type of work downtown will tell you that it is a crap shoot at ANY downtown location until the digging starts. Reference Safe Harbor Language in previous post.

 

Correction:   $426,000 plus perks. The mistake was inadvertent. Just a number that is hard to get my mind around. Still a nice piece of change,eh? He must be worth it to someone. 

I did not hear it. I read it in the Pee D. Architectural Critic S. Litt. No need to develop a opinion on my "rumor".

No offense intended, I just wanted to know where you got that from, as it sounded a little like the gossip typical of some other websites. Thank you very much for your source of information.

No problem! I would love to see more people take a interest. Community involvement is a vital part of democracy. There is so much spin on this subject your question is more than justified. We should all be Grumpy:)

You will find FCE 'sleepers' on all forums. Listen for the lullaby.

Sorry for excessive posts. I am new.

 

Not only have you not been excessive, you've made some excellent points that should not be ignored. Please keep it up!

I did not hear it. I read it in the Pee D. Architectural Critic S. Litt. . It is a direct quote from the article with the addition of !/2 Million which is not exactly true. It is in the very high $400,000(480 ?) range. I do not recall the exact dollar figure, please forgive me. It too is a matter of public record. The engineer from Osborn was at the 1st and 2nd public meetings and so stated. The water table 'issue' is a red herring, any construction company who has done this type of work downtown will tell you that it is a crap shoot at ANY downtown location until the digging starts. Reference Safe Harbor Language in previous post.

 

Would you mind providing the link to the PD article?  I've looked for it on cleveland.com, but I'm not exactly sure of the exact article that you're referencing.

The PD articles get obliterated after two weeks, but here are links to the posted articles from the forum:

 

http://www.urbanohio.com/forum2/index.php/topic,1782.0/msg,42248.html

 

http://www.urbanohio.com/forum2/index.php/topic,1782.0/msg,33837.html

Medical Mart could help complete Cleveland's downtown Mall

Posted by Steven Litt/Plain Dealer Architecture Critic

May 16, 2008 11:52AM

 

The west side of Cleveland's downtown Mall, north of Key Tower and the Marriott Hotel, has never been finished with an architecturally strong framework, as envisioned in Daniel Burnham's 1903 Group Plan for downtown Cleveland.

 

Cleveland's downtown Mall, envisioned at the turn of the 20th century by architect Daniel Burnham of Chicago, is one of the city's biggest unfinished projects.

 

more at: http://www.cleveland.com/medicalmart

JESUS CHRIST, LISTEN TO THEM!