Levin College Forum -- Medical Mart, a good idea?

        12:00 Noon – 1:00 pm, Tuesday, October 7th 2008 (ie: TODAY!)

 

Location

CSU Levin College of Urban Affairs, 1717 Euclid Ave, Cleveland, OH

 

The Medical Mart: It sounds like a good idea, but is it? Do Cuyahoga County taxpayers really understand this half-a-billion dollar project?

 

These were the questions urban planning professor William Bowen posed to his class this summer. His students did their homework and found some very interesting answers. Attend this forum to learn more about the Medical Mart and convention center, its projected costs and benefits to the community, the success of similar projects in other cities, and how to determine the rationale for using public money to subsidize private enterprise.

 

 

Presenters: Michelle Distefano; Wendy Naylor; Fran Mentch; and, Emil Liszniansky

(students in Urban Spatial Structures, UST605, summer 2008)

 

Moderator: Professor Norman Krumholz

Registration and information available at

medical mart or call 216.523.7330

 

And there's this (just reminding!):

 

For Immediate Release

Contact: Jim   McCafferty, County Administrator, 216-443-7215

 

 

ADDITIONAL MEDICAL MART FORUM SCHEDULED

 

Cleveland – Cuyahoga County Commissioner Peter Lawson Jones will host a fourth public forum to discuss the proposed Medical Mart/Convention Center project.

 

The purpose of the forum is to share as much information as possible about the Medical Mart and Convention Center projects with the public. The forum will be:

 

6:00 p.m.*

Wednesday October 8th

Center For Families and Children

4500 Euclid Avenue, Cleveland

 

*Registration to speak begins at 5:30 p.m.

 

The Center provides free parking in a lot off East 46th Street.

 

GCP officials will attend the forums to share preliminary designs and plans for the development, and answer questions about the site selection from the public

Levin College Forum -- Medical Mart, a good idea?

  12:00 Noon 1:00 pm, Tuesday, October 7th 2008 (ie: TODAY!)

 

Location

CSU Levin College of Urban Affairs, 1717 Euclid Ave, Cleveland, OH

 

The Medical Mart: It sounds like a good idea, but is it? Do Cuyahoga County taxpayers really understand this half-a-billion dollar project?

 

These were the questions urban planning professor William Bowen posed to his class this summer. His students did their homework and found some very interesting answers. Attend this forum to learn more about the Medical Mart and convention center, its projected costs and benefits to the community, the success of similar projects in other cities, and how to determine the rationale for using public money to subsidize private enterprise.

 

 

Presenters: Michelle Distefano; Wendy Naylor; Fran Mentch; and, Emil Liszniansky

(students in Urban Spatial Structures, UST605, summer 2008)

 

Moderator: Professor Norman Krumholz

Registration and information available at

medical mart or call 216.523.7330

 

 

I will be there... we have a paper due in his class next week on the same subject (I will post the findings of the forum later)

Funny, when I came to Cleveland 3.5 years ago to check out the Levin College, there was a forum on this very same topic.  How'd it go this time around?

Informative and well thought out presentations that pointed out the the difficulty of finding and lack of factual figures and the lack of transparency in the  process. Interesting to note the med mart in Birmingham,Al maximum utilization was in 1993 at 16% and the bond issued for it are classified as junk.  Well attended.  I asked Mr. Madden who from the city was the point person with whom MMPI was negotiating he said he did not know but assumed it would be someone from the law department. Which means NO ONE from the city, at this point, has talked to them on behalf of the Mall Site.  figures show a 136M shortfall.

^And that shortfall has yet to be allocated for.  The mayor of Pepper Pike was in attendance, and wanted everyone to keep the big picture in mind of the fact that manufacturing ain't coming back anytime soon and that the town's medical sector is the future.  However, someone noted that a $136 million shortfall is not a small point to ignore, as is the site selection.  Great forum though.

Oct 8 forum

Poorly attended due to lack of publicity. 4 guys from Cleveland Building trades kissed some Roman Butt and stated their desire to see the project move forward. 2 Tower City tenants thought the Tower City Site was a swell idea. Poor Joe's cheesy Power Point presentation had equipment failure. Councilman Brain Cummins spoke to the lack of transparency, information and the failure of the City and Council to partake in the process. I spoke privately with the engineer from Osborn who assured me that any water problems were of no consequence and it was well know how to deal with them. Ol'Joe  brushed off the work of the graduate students at Levin as the work of students, while they hired professionals. He could not explain any difference between Forest City's original proposal and GCP's except for the addition of the Medical Mart taking 2 floors of the Higbee  Bldg. When Joe was asked to explain the discrepancy between GCP's cost comparisons and MMPI's statement that costs were comparable between the two sites, he dummied up. 

Hey guys, can we expect a new convention hotel to pop up on the western edge of Tower City? I assume we will need a hotel with 800-1000 rooms. Could we be looking for something slender, such a the Peachtree Westin in Atlanta or the defunct Renaissance in Detroit. I don't favor a cylinder style, but seeing someting sleet and cool (westin) would be great.

Wherever the new convention center is built, it's likely an appropriately-sized hotel would be built adjacent. Most convention center hotels have in excess of 500 rooms. At this point, we can only speculate as to how it would look.

 

As with any construction of tall buildings in Cleveland, anything over 400ish feet would require caissons in excess of 200 feet to anchor the structure to bedrock. That adds a significant amount to construction costs.

 

Fyi, the hotel at the Renaissance Center in Detroit is very much in business as the Detroit Marriott at the Renaissance Center: http://www.marriott.com/hotels/travel/dtwdt-detroit-marriott-at-the-renaissance-center

Thanks for the FYI! Looking at the skyline from the North, it looks like a jack-o-lantern; it's my least favorite cityscape of the Cleveland.  Just wish we had some filler. Unfortunately, that means more businesses relocating. Can we expect skyscrapers or buildings over 20 stories in University Circle area within the next 15 years? Would be a great site for high rise condos and biomedical firms! just dreaming

All good questions, but let's keep this thread on the topic of the Convention Center. For what it's worth, I've seen generic massing models that show potential hotel locations for a Tower City convention center - one to the east of the Federal Courthouse tower, and one west of the existing Renaissance Hotel ballroom. But again, that's all waaaaay too preliminary to be able to say "yes, there will be a hotel built at ______ site".

To respond on a few questions and to add a few comments --

 

    ? Does this mean the GCP/ Forest City guesstimates were "somewhat less (50M) than accurate"?

 

The problem with the $47 million GCP cost estimate variance is that I question who was in the mix strongly advocating for the Mall site.  Forest City Enterprise had their folks playing an active role in the analysis with the GCP Site Selection Committee, whereas Mayor Jackson and Council Leadership have given a pass to the County and the entire process.  I believe there is a way, and MMPI has indicated via the Crain's article that either site can work. 

 

With that being stated by MMPI, the Mall site should definitely be re-examined very closely. The liability to the City to have the County build at the Tower City site is extremely high and shortsighted.  The inherent value of the historic Burnham plan and the asset of the Lake are un-mistakable.

 

FYI -- stay tuned for an announcement by the Northeast Ohio Citizens League as (http://www.neohio.org) they are planning a public forum on the Med Mart/Conv Center for November.  My bet and hope is that Commissioners will put off their controversial decision on the site until after the election. 

 

An attempt at facilitating a forum where there can be a presentation by multiple parties of various facts and experiences that relate to this important and currently largest planned public investment for our region is admirable.

 

Regards,

 

Brian Cummins

Cleveland City Council, Ward 15

[email protected]

216-459-8400

Here is the NEO Citizens League’s recent posting on their web site.  Check their site out and plan on getting involved!

 

http://www.neohio.org

 

Med Mart Forum This Fall

Posted in General by Michael on the October 2nd, 2008

 

The Northeast Ohio Citizens League is currently talking to all the major players and stakeholders about convening an educational forum around the Cuyahoga County Convention Center / Med Mart issue this fall. A specific date and venue will be announced shortly.

 

We’re intending to provide a non-partisan, transparent, un-biased look at all the data and information that’s been put forth on this long-discussed venture. Part of the process will be to offer the “virtual home” to the issue so we can all have one shared place to research, learn and discuss this very important County initiative with regional implications.

 

But this will not be just a “one-off’ forum to bring together people and organizations. It’s aprocess we’re going to put into place for more issues which could benefit from a different approach. Here’s the way we described it in a recent email on the topic:

 

-------------------------

 

When a project such as the med mart comes along, it only stands to reason – democratic reason – that the whole community should be involved in the planning process. A process in which there is continual informed dialogue amongst all sectors – public & private – that results in an open and transparent plan.

 

I think we have to agree that this issue could greatly benefit from a “forum/planning process” that is assisted by an un-biased, non-partisan third party. The cc/mm will be an on-going community discussion for quite some time and it needs it’s own “space” – including a web site – where the community and the stakeholders can continue to meet and discuss as things progress.

 

Finally this isn’t just about the med mart issue. It’s about developing a continual public deliberation/policy process that allows the whole community to collaborate on major issues. As we know, there are many, many local & regional projects in play right now that could benefit from this approach.

The Northeast Ohio Citizens League is currently talking to all the major players and stakeholders about convening an educational forum around the Cuyahoga County Convention Center / Med Mart issue this fall. A specific date and venue will be announced shortly.

 

We’re intending to provide a non-partisan, transparent, un-biased look at all the data and information that’s been put forth on this long-discussed venture. Part of the process will be to offer the “virtual home” to the issue so we can all have one shared place to research, learn and discuss this very important County initiative with regional implications.

 

But this will not be just a “one-off’ forum to bring together people and organizations. It’s aprocess we’re going to put into place for more issues which could benefit from a different approach. Here’s the way we described it in a recent email on the topic:

 

When a project such as the med mart comes along, it only stands to reason – democratic reason – that the whole community should be involved in the planning process. A process in which there is continual informed dialogue amongst all sectors – public & private – that results in an open and transparent plan.

 

I think we have to agree that this issue could greatly benefit from a “forum/planning process” that is assisted by an un-biased, non-partisan third party. The cc/mm will be an on-going community discussion for quite some time and it needs it’s own “space” – including a web site – where the community and the stakeholders can continue to meet and discuss as things progress.

 

Finally this isn’t just about the med mart issue. It’s about developing a continual public deliberation/policy process that allows the whole community to collaborate on major issues. As we know, there are many, many local & regional projects in play right now that could benefit from this approach.

Welcome to the forum, Councilman! :-)

Welcome to the forum, Councilman! :-)

 

Ditto!  Glad you're here!!  I look forward to reading more of your posts.

Glad you found it. You will be a much needed addition.

Hi Brian. This is Ken at Sun. Glad to see you found UO. Welcome aboard!

Anyone interested how this 'Process' works try http://nolandgrab.org/

http://www.cleveland.com/news/plaindealer/othercolumns/index.ssf?/base/opinion/1223973227273860.xml&coll=2&thispage=1

 

In Cuyahoga County, big land deals for big tax dollars are all too common - Christopher Evans

 

Tuesday, October 14, 2008

 

The federal government is this close to standing on a street corner, "bumvertising" with a torn piece of cardboard that reads, "Can you spare some change?" Ohio could be staring down the barrel of a billion-dollar-plus budget cut. The county, bloated with patronage, is streamlining its waste line through buyouts and worse: reducing social services spending by almost $3 million this year and by more than $10 million next year. The Northeast Ohio Regional Sewer District approved a five-year, 50 percent rate increase last year to cover new construction and what it describes as project cost overruns (and critics call kickbacks.)

"It's all about the Benjamins," Puff Daddy sang back in the day.

 

No money, mo' problems.

 

And what black holes swallow millions and millions of tax dollars? The bank accounts of two private development companies that have worked since the dawn of the 21st century with these government agencies on land deals so outrageous the bureaucrats could star in their own reality show: "So You Think You Can Bargain?"

 

As easy as it would be to condemn corporate greed, that's not the problem. The problem is the lackadaisical attitude government takes when it's spending taxpayer dollars.

 

Let's start with one of the most popular examples. It features the usual suspects: the county commissioners and Forest City Enterprises Inc. It concerns the site of the $160 million Juvenile Justice complex at East 93rd Street and Quincy Avenue. Over a period of months in 1999 and 2000, Sunrise Land Co., a Forest City subsidiary, bought the 16.1 acres for a total of $469,171. In August 2000, it then sold the property to the county commissioners for $2.75 million. That works out to almost 500 percent more than Sunrise paid for the land.

 

But that wasn't the end of it. Taxpayers had to pony up another $10 million to study and remove contaminated soil and other debris from the site.

 

My personal favorite is the Coit Road deal. On June 12, 2002, Forest City bought 49 acres at the corner of Coit Road and East 140th Street from the state for $630,000. Later that very same day, a Forest City company sold roughly half that land to the U.S. Department of Labor for $2.5 million.

 

The state and the feds were burning money like Paris Hilton at a Roberto Cavalli fashion show. Before the sale, taxpayers paid more than $34 million to buy, clear and clean the site of the former General Motors Fisher Body complex.

 

Then they spent $2.5 million to buy back less than half the land, this time for a Labor Department Job Corps campus.

And the spending spree didn't stop there. The taxpayers have shelled out an additional $13 million to deal with lingering underground contamination.

The best part? The half that Forest City didn't sell just sits there. The kids at the shiny, new Job Corps campus look out at a weed-spiked, crumbling, concrete eyesore.

 

When asked why the nationally renowned developer wouldn't at least do something to improve the view, Forest City Enterprises co-Chairman and Treasurer Sam Miller, in his usual combative conversational style, snapped: "What are you? In charge of the cleanup squad for the city?"

 

But a heart does beat beneath that gruff exterior. "Well, if the Job Corps complained to us, we would try to give them a hand," Miller conceded.

 

Now, let's step into the gutter. Months after Northeast Ohio Regional Sewer District trustees approved the 50 percent rate hike in 2007, they forked over $1.55 million for 27 undeveloped acres just south of the Shoreway.

 

The seller: a Forest City company that paid $200,000 for the land in 2000.

 

Even more curious is that the Cuyahoga County auditor had appraised that acreage in 2006 for $286,000, according to Plain Dealer reporter Michael O'Malley.

 

Perhaps the trustees thought the land was worth so much more because it is contaminated with low levels of mercury, lead and arsenic.

 

Forest City always seems to be in the right place at the right time to reap a windfall of taxpayer dollars. That's not a criticism. I wish I were an investor.

 

But Forest City isn't the only company that has benefited from the lack of governmental oversight when it comes to buying land with taxpayer dollars.

 

The Cuyahoga Metropolitan Housing Authority allowed itself to be taken to the cleaners back in 2005 by Beachwood-based developer Todd Davis.

Davis was able to secure $4.7 million in public dollars to clean up 25 acres of abandoned contaminated land at East 80th Street and Kinsman Road. How? Well, Davis was going to transform the property into a tax-paying, job-producing industrial park.

 

But in a classic - and perfectly legal - bait and switch, Kinbess, a limited-liability corporation Davis created to do the deal, ended up selling the property to CMHA.

 

As a public agency, CMHA doesn't pay taxes. It also won't create any new jobs. But the most amazing thing is that CMHA agreed to Davis' asking price before getting an appraisal!

 

This is the kind of trust that developers find so lacking in the private sector.

 

CMHA shelled out more than $4.2 million, or $150,000 an acre. Kinbess paid a measly $153,000 for the entire 25 acres.

 

I bring up these horror stories not just because Halloween is around the corner, but because I want the tormented taxpayers of Cuyahoga County to take comfort in the knowledge that Merchandise Mart Properties Inc. - and not the commissioners - will negotiate the price tag of the Medical Mart and convention center site.

 

Who owns the land? Forest City, of course.

 

Evans is an associate editor of The Plain Dealer's editorial pages.

 

To reach Christopher Evans:

 

[email protected], 216-999-6139

 

Previous columns online:

 

cleveland.com/columns

 

 

I know this is the wrong thread. I've been searching for about 20 minutes now for the Cleveland Film Commission thread (and every other variation of the name) but cannot find it.

Please put in the appropriate place.

 

 

Crain's

 

Cleveland to rent part of convention center for filmmaking

By JAY MILLER

 

12:32 pm, October 27, 2008

 

The city of Cleveland plans to lease rent-free a small portion of the Cleveland Convention Center to Nehst Creations for a film and video production studio.

 

The one-year lease is a stop-gap to allow Nehst to use the space for two productions it has under way in Ohio. In a news release, Cleveland Mayor Frank Jackson said a long-term arrangement is dependent on Ohio passing a tax credit for movie production.

 

The mayor sees film production as an extension of the region’s artistic and creative efforts.

 

“It is a natural progression for Cleveland and the region to become serious contenders for a piece of the billion-dollar film industry,” Mayor Jackson said.

 

Nehst began shooting its first Cleveland-based production, a documentary titled “Running America,” in September. Shooting for a second web-based series, “Dribble, Kick, Throw,” also is under way.

 

Nehst will be able to use the convention center’s exhibit halls when no other events are scheduled.

 

The Greater Cleveland Film Commission has been discussing a Cleveland production center with Nehst for about a year.

 

“This arrangement is a powerful stimulus to our goal of building a film industry here in Greater Cleveland,” said Ivan Schwarz, executive director of the film commission. “Nehst executives are fulfilling their commitment to shoot some of their productions here on an ongoing basis.

 

“This will help us build up the infrastructure that will create long-term employment of a large and skilled workforce,” he said.

 

While Nehst is a young, independent film company, its chairman, Larry Meistrich, has produced films such as “Sling Blade” and “You Can Count on Me.”

 

Mr. Schwarz has been pushing for a state investment tax credit for film and television production, so that Ohio would be competitive with states such as Louisiana, Michigan and New Mexico for filmmakers. Mr. Schwarz told Crain’s Cleveland Business last month that he hopes the lame-duck state Legislature will pass the tax credit before the end of the year.

try this thread

 

http://www.urbanohio.com/forum2/index.php/topic,3329.0.html

I thought of that, but  I could have sworn there was one specifically for the commission.

I thought of that, but  I could have sworn there was one specifically for the commission.

You're thinking of this thread:  http://www.urbanohio.com/forum2/index.php/topic,14785.0.html

^ and ^^^

 

 

Brought to you by MTS - the Lexis-Nexis for old UO threads...

^ and ^^^

 

 

Brought to you by MTS - the Lexis-Nexis for old UO threads...

Child boo!  Those threads are hardly "old".  Moving on.

I've just heard something AMAZING from a source at the city. The source says that representatives for the Medical Mart have grown tired of dealing with the Ratners for the Tower City Center site.

 

So apparently the old convention center site is back in play! I consider this to be wonderful news.

 

Also, the source said they are dusting off old plans for the North Coast Transportation Center for Amtrak, the Waterfront Line, bus services and pedestrian accessways to North Coast Harbor.

 

So I dusted off my old images of the North Coast Transportation Center....

 

 

And of course here's a rendering of the rebuilt convention center with a hotel (medical mart) at the left side where the current county administrative offices are located:

 

This is super good news.  Great pick-me-up after the last couple of weeks.  That second picture is a nice modern take on the mall concept, although bigger edgier towers would help it.

:clap:

That is GREAT NEWS!!  As much of a roller coaster ride this has been, I'm gonna wait to pop the bottles until an official release comes out.

 

 

 

:drunk:

:-o :wave: :wtf: :wink2: omg that was my favorite plan and that first photo you posted, KJP is what got me blogging about the Hub in the first place!  I hope it's true!

That is GREAT NEWS!! As much of a roller coaster ride this has been, I'm gonna wait to pop the bottles until an official release comes out.

 

And you should. The Ratners could always beg to the Medical Mart folks to come back to them and resume negotiations. But that's not the Ratner's MO.

 

I posted some more images at:

 

http://www.urbanohio.com/forum2/index.php/topic,2068.msg339626.html#msg339626

I'm not getting excited about this until I see construction cranes.

 

My heart has been toyed with too much. It's stone cold now. :)

That's called maturity. Just be sure to hold on to the good parts of being young.  8-)

maturity is overrated. :-)  I'm in love with that design. I hope we can pay for it before I die.

That's called maturity. Just be sure to hold on to the good parts of being young. 8-)

 

LOL .. no. I think it's called scorn.

That's called maturity. Just be sure to hold on to the good parts of being young.  8)

 

LOL .. no. I think it's called scorn.

....and you whippersnappers say that, as if its a bad thing!

Has sanity returned?? Stay tuned.

fantastic...even as off the record!

 

ha -- once they got to know the players better (make that the 'playas'), the med mart folks finally came to their senses.

Here's what PB's NCTC report from 1998 said about a linkage with a rebuilt convention center (cross-posted from the Cleveland Convention Center thread -- each of these is about 1mb):

 

http://members.cox.net/neotrans2/NCTC-convctr1.pdf

http://members.cox.net/neotrans2/NCTC-convctr2.pdf

http://members.cox.net/neotrans2/NCTC-convctr3.pdf

http://members.cox.net/neotrans2/NCTC-convctr4.pdf

That's called maturity. Just be sure to hold on to the good parts of being young. 8)

 

LOL .. no. I think it's called scorn.

....and you whippersnappers say that, as if its a bad thing!

 

It's basically a life motto for you, isn't it?

PB?? NCTC??

That's called maturity. Just be sure to hold on to the good parts of being young.  8)

 

LOL .. no. I think it's called scorn.

....and you whippersnappers say that, as if its a bad thing!

 

It's basically a life motto for you, isn't it?

PB?? NCTC??

 

Parsons Brinckerhoff.

 

North Coast Transportation Center.

I've just heard something AMAZING from a source at the city. The source says that representatives for the Medical Mart have grown tired of dealing with the Ratners for the Tower City Center site.

 

So apparently the old convention center site is back in play! I consider this to be wonderful news.

 

Also, the source said they are dusting off old plans for the North Coast Transportation Center for Amtrak, the Waterfront Line, bus services and pedestrian accessways to North Coast Harbor.

 

So I dusted off my old images of the North Coast Transportation Center....

 

This is GREAT news.  :banger:  :clap: The NCTC would be an outstanding development generator for downtown.  Who knows, it might also dial up the pressure for the Waterfront line extension. 

 

Besides, our Amtrak station is nothing but a glorified bus station.  A classy station would sure help for when the 2-C/3-C gets going.

wow i am very happy. i was never really negative toward the tower city option, as regardless it was still going to be an overall benefit for the city.. but this is simply MUCH nicer of a concept.

 

could you imagine the design issues you have to deal with if a new/bigger amtrak is to be built? i mean.. for one to replace tower city as the place you arrive into cleveland by train is a pretty big deal.  interesting design issue.

 

anways.. i think that the impact of a center under the mall is going to attract much more attention to the expansion, as well as opening up an even more forward thinking image for the lakefront.

 

can't wait to see how this one unfolds!

Hopefully it's unfolding the way the source says it is. Hopefully it will continue to unfold that way.

Wohoo!  I hope your source is right!  We need some good news :-D.

While I'm by no means holding my breath on this, it is definitly a positive thing that some of the powers to be are at least considering the mall site still.

 

I'd love to see the NCTC plan looked at again, though realistically some things might be worth looking at again. Its a beautiful plan, but it's a decade old and could use a little updating to integrate some of its changes with the city's lakefront plan, and some of the changes that have happened in the last decade. One big example of a change would be the big hotel proposed for 9th street in that plan (visible in the rendering KJP posted) probably wouldn't be needed if we're putting a huge new hotel where the county administrative offices are now. Of course, there's probably a NCTC plan thread around here somewhere so I'll stop now.

Assuming this were to go through, where would the county offices end up?  Could they be the anchor tenant to another big roject?  Obviously they'd have to move out before work could begin at their current site, and I doubt they'd want to move twice.  That means something permanent for them would have to get going pretty quickly.

I'm suprised that you guys are happy about this rumor.  I understand that the Tower City site might not be the best one, but considering Cleveland has just lost National City, Eaton and now, for a while at least, the Flats, I just can't celebrate another project's being delayed.

 

I mean, what if this is the impetus to our losing the Med Mart completely.  That would be just heartbreaking.