Always glad to help clear things up! lol

What about the taj-mallhall?

What about the taj-mallhall?

What about the taj-mallhall?

 

That is very good!

Time to head out. This should be good. I am gonna miss Ed. I will be a little weird without him. He used to film this crap. Report to follow.

-What about "MallHalla", where hardcore Norwegian shoppers experience eternity?

-What about "MallHalla", where hardcore Norwegian shoppers experience eternity?

 

 

http://blog.cleveland.com/architecture/2009/02/the_biggest_question_raised_by.html

 

Medical Mart presentation makes convincing case for the Mall

Posted by Steven Litt / Plain Dealer Architecture Critic

February 12, 2009 14:32PM

 

 

The biggest question raised by the protracted and largely secretive debate over where to build a medical mart and a new convention center in Cleveland is this: Can a good result can come from a lousy process?

 

A presentation at City Hall today by Merchandise Mart Properties Inc., the Chicago company that would build, manage and own the facilities, offered hope that the answer might be "yes."...

YEAH!!

 

:clap:    :clap:    :clap:    :clap:

 

Litt hit the nail on the head with:

But today's presentation by MMPI made it easy to wonder why Cuyahoga County wasted a year by asking the Greater Cleveland Partnership in 2007 to recommend sites for the med mart and convention center.

 

If the county was so determined to outsource the work and step beyond its own planning department and that of the city, it should have turned more quickly to MMPI, which is, after all, assuming significant risk in the venture.

So, no mention of the North Coast Transportation Center. :(

Looks like some of my thunder was taken.  And I don't want to steal what I'm sure is greener pastures'.  But here are a couple items I thought relevant:

 

1.  The presentation was unbelievably thorough.

2.  Not that I hadn't wondered this many times before, but why the f*ck was GCP ever wasting our time.  This thing could be up and going by now.

3.  The tower city site was complete and utter science fiction.  All the things I and others have been stating about how nearly impossible it would be to do this, came to light.

4.  My favorite was a rendering of the tower city cc from the huron road perspective, which showed the CC and MM above Huron road, with crowds of people scurrying about in front... and then 8 lanes of vehicular traffic between them and tower city.

5.  Don't pay too much attention to the renderings in litt's column.  They specifically stated at this point they were just massings, but they wanted some sort of iconic architecture for the MM on the west side.

6. yes jpop north coast transportation center was brought up.  They are very much in favor of it.  But it wouldn't be their call.  Obviously they see it as a huge potential advantage that would work very well with their plans.

 

I think litt covers most of the rest including the ridiculous amount of work that needs to be done UNDER Huron Road.

 

Question Highlights:

 

1.  The "convention expert" spoke, and used his 2 minutes harping on "connectivity" and "keeping cleveland's restaurants and shops filled 12 months a year, not 8."  Then went off on "did you look at my survey" :whip: rant... i think he may have been shocked when the folks at MMPI pulled a slide up of his survey, said they thought all the ?'s were loaded designed to get the specific answer he was looking for and basically called it crap.  Next.

 

Honestly I'm so done with this great "connectivity".  I wasn't aware that the ritz, & Rennaisance were the only 2 hotels in cleveland (i guess if nothing else they are the most expensive... my company would laugh in my face if I requested to stay at a ritz carlton for a convention).  I wasn't aware that Morton's, Hyde Park, and Hard Rock were the only restaurants in Cleveland.  Someone really needs to explain to me how this is so much different than being connected to the Marriott (which they seem intent on doing) and the Crowne Plaza, with their in house restaurants and bars.  I mean I guess I just don't see whey living inside a mall is so appealing that people are going to flock here in the winter to do it.  At either location if people really want a variety of options... they are going to have to go *eeek... shudder*, outside.

 

2. David Larue from FCE started p*ssing and moaning. about not being given proper chances, blah, blah, blah.  To which MMPI finally said, "where the hell have you been for 6 months, our door isn't closed, and we were unaware we had to track you down for you to give us new proposals".  By the way, MMPI did 4 different variations of the FCE site.  I thought all of them looked as akward as the other.

 

Did I mention FCE now claims they have a $425m proposal :roll:  Let's see just how long they can drag this out and continue to jeopardize the project.

 

There is unbelievable tension between FCE and MMPI. 

 

Oh, and to answer someone's question from the other day... The UC (or nearby) sites under consideration (more than I thought) were 55th and Chester, White Motor Co., The West Quad, and the cleveland Playhouse.

GCP was just a stone walling waste of time and money. Shovels could be in the ground!

1. The "convention expert" spoke, and used his 2 minutes harping on "connectivity" and "keeping cleveland's restaurants and shops filled 12 months a year, not 8." Then went off on "did you look at my survey" :whip: rant... i think he may have been shocked when the folks at MMPI pulled a slide up of his survey, said they thought all the ?'s were loaded designed to get the specific answer he was looking for and basically called it crap. Next.

 

Hahahahahaha!  I'm glad the whole picture, and the wackiness of whole FCE/GCP conundrum, is finally coming to light.

-- Lower development cost.

-- Quicker speed to market.

-- Re-energize the Mall.

-- Walking distance to hotels plus potential connection to Marriott and Crowne Plaza.

-- Convenient existing parking.

-- Proximity to the Warehouse District.

-- Access to Great Lakes Science Center, Browns Stadium, Rock and Roll Hall of Fame and Museum.

-- Adaptive re-use of two downtown buildings.

-- Opportunity for future expansion.

-- Sense of inclusion within the city.

-- Access to lakefront views, with outdoor terrace on north side.-- Preserve and energize Public Auditorium.

-- Opportunities for public art at new plazas.

-- Entrance pavilion can be used for exhibits, meetings, music.

 

 

Long ago, I reconciled in my mind that this project is not going to be as "grand" as once envisioned.  Recently, I have been working under the belief that it would just be an interior beautification of the existing CC.  That is why those couple points give me some hope.  This is the first I have heard of a terrace.  While I like the idea, I guess that does away with the "Mall D" proposals of the past.  All that said, I wholeheartedly agree that the mall is the superior site for possible future expansion and I like that such expansion is at least contemplated.

 

Couple of questions:

- What is the "entrance pavilion"?

- I might be answering the above question here, but for someone who has never actually been inside the CC (other than the connected auditorium) what is under the area of the mall between the old courthouse and City hall?

They acknowledged that they didn't really explore a mall D, but that if future expansion were required, that would be the route to explore. 

 

The terrace looked like it would be a pretty cool spot to hang out if you were at a convention.

 

Currently under the mall is the exhibit hall.  it's bascially a basement with a ton of columns, and flourescent lighting... it's the reason we can't attract real conventions.

 

The entry pavillion is part of what they want as the "iconic" architecture.  Essentially it would be on the Corner of St. Clair across fromt he mariott where that crappy building is.  They envisions some sort of glassy caged area, which would serve as the new main entrance for conventions off a plaza.  Tough to really get a feel for it since they don't have any solid renderings yet.

Oh, my thunder! but nail it you did McCleveland! Outstanding!

The only thing I can add is that from Osborn and another source they tell me about 3 weeks till they are done. They are making more test bores. I loved Chris Kennedy telling FCE that it was not MMPI's responsibility to call or ask FCE to make further presentations on behalf of the TC site. Did not see Fred Nance. Joe Roman was there,the guy irritates me just looking at him, but I gave him my best grin. ;)

GP you're really passionate about this project and I was patiently waiting for you to post flip charts, movies, and line item by line item commentary. 

 

You've disappointed me.  :'(

I think that sneaky McCleveland was there with a laptop. FOUL!

I loved Chris Kennedy telling FCE that it was not MMPI's responsibility to call or ask FCE to make further presentations on behalf of the TC site.

 

Highlight of the afternoon, i giggled, clapped a little and decided I could now leave.

Was there a time the general public could have asked questions?

To everyone here is a link to the renderings for the new convention center on the mall enjoy. Interested in how everyone feels about the design

http://www.clevelandmedicalmart.com/development/architecture/

 

To everyone here is a link to the renderings for the new convention center on the mall enjoy. Interested in how everyone feels about the design

http://www.clevelandmedicalmart.com/development/architecture/

 

 

Since they are just concepts I really dont have an opinion and I hope folks don't get too worked up.

 

Although I love the fourth picture!

Great information and descriptions, guys! UrbanOhio once again rocks as the best place to find out what's going without going to all the meetings (be they public or backroom).

What excites me about these plans is the possabilities for the mall to have human interaction. This could become The Millennium Park of Cleveland.

What excites me about these plans is the possabilities for the mall to have human interaction. This could become The Millennium Park of Cleveland.

 

It was "Millennium Park" before chicago had Millennium Park.

Reflection.

MMPI is extremely professional and can handle themselves. I was feeling a bit down in dumps but am now more confident then ever in these guys. The devil is still in the details and it still needs to be watched closely but we are not dealing with fools. They won't be intimidated.

 

Where's Fred? Have both the County and FCE/GCP lost confidence in him? He has gone from grinning, to deer caught in the headlights, to gone.

Joe Roman just looked confused

They acknowledged that they didn't really explore a mall D, but that if future expansion were required, that would be the route to explore. 

 

The terrace looked like it would be a pretty cool spot to hang out if you were at a convention.

 

Currently under the mall is the exhibit hall.  it's bascially a basement with a ton of columns, and flourescent lighting... it's the reason we can't attract real conventions.

 

The entry pavillion is part of what they want as the "iconic" architecture.  Essentially it would be on the Corner of St. Clair across fromt he mariott where that crappy building is.  They envisions some sort of glassy caged area, which would serve as the new main entrance for conventions off a plaza.  Tough to really get a feel for it since they don't have any solid renderings yet.

 

Thanks.  I take it the entry pavilion is the 7th photo in that link posted above.

 

Was there any mention of additional hotels or any plans for site the county admin. building is now sitting on?  I see from the renderings that they are moving forward with the idea that the county is not moving..... but if the MM turns out to be a hit and needs to expand, the county will have to GTFO for additional showrooms and/or office/lab space. 

 

I love the design of the MM as they have it pictured (preliminary or not), but I wonder if its size will limit its potential.

First impressions are that while the renderings (I know, just conceptual at this point) of the Medical Mart component aren't terribly impressive from an architectural standpoint, I *love* the fact that they're making the northeast corner of St. Clair/Ontario a major entry point. That will help immensely with the somewhat justified concerns of getting people from the Tower City hotels/amenities over to the Mall site.

First impressions are that while the renderings (I know, just conceptual at this point) of the Medical Mart component aren't terribly impressive from an architectural standpoint, I *love* the fact that they're making the northeast corner of St. Clair/Ontario a major entry point. That will help immensely with the somewhat justified concerns of getting people from the Tower City hotels/amenities over to the Mall site.

 

Agreed.

 

They acknowledged that they didn't really explore a mall D, but that if future expansion were required, that would be the route to explore.

 

The terrace looked like it would be a pretty cool spot to hang out if you were at a convention.

 

Currently under the mall is the exhibit hall. it's bascially a basement with a ton of columns, and flourescent lighting... it's the reason we can't attract real conventions.

 

The entry pavillion is part of what they want as the "iconic" architecture. Essentially it would be on the Corner of St. Clair across fromt he mariott where that crappy building is. They envisions some sort of glassy caged area, which would serve as the new main entrance for conventions off a plaza. Tough to really get a feel for it since they don't have any solid renderings yet.

 

Thanks. I take it the entry pavilion is the 7th photo in that link posted above.

 

Was there any mention of additional hotels or any plans for site the county admin. building is now sitting on? I see from the renderings that they are moving forward with the idea that the county is not moving..... but if the MM turns out to be a hit and needs to expand, the county will have to GTFO for additional showrooms and/or office/lab space.

 

I love the design of the MM as they have it pictured (preliminary or not), but I wonder if its size will limit its potential.

 

They mentioned potential convention hotels several times.  Obviously that's not something they provide.  At either location a convention hotel would need to be built.  Certainly the county site makes a lot of sense.  I can think of a couple FCE owned places that make sense, and would throw them a bone so they don't pout too much.

I know they are just renderings, but I don't like any of the renderings for the actual malls

The Plain Dealer has added a video to there blog posting.  Mr. Don Scott is my new hero!

 

http://blog.cleveland.com/metro/2009/02/forest_city_makes_another_bid.html

 

I like how the design brightens up the area, but:

 

I think the exhibit halls should be column-free.

The medical mart is nice, but kind of small, resembles the Knight Center in Akron.

I think it's funny that FCE keeps insisting on the site because there is a retail mall attached.  The Merchandise Mart once had a retail mall on the first 2 floors, along with Carson Pirie Scott as an anchor(not the one that used to be on State St, it was a second location).  The mall concept flopped, and now those same lower 2 floors consist of consumer based showrooms called LuxeHome (open to the public unlike the professional floors above).  You can look at and order kitchens from Poggenpohl, Valcucine, Poliform...etc, and Kohler has a bathroom showroom. 

 

I don't think that the retail aspect holds much weight for the folks at MMPI.  They already tried to prop up an ailing mall once.  I think the Burnham mall site is exciting.

Burnham is still a very relevent name in Chicago.  Forest City is not. 

Those two facts make me happy.

Was that "connectivity" convention expert just brushed off to the side?  I would have paid to see that.

Those renderings are pretty bland looking.  The original Mall plan, with the suspension bridge like structural pieces rising up from the convention center was much more attractive.

^I agree. I was a big fan of the work LMN did in the initial renderings. But in Cleveland we have to get used to the words "Scaled Down". Because going forward that is just the reality of it.

^I agree. I was a big fan of the work LMN did in the initial renderings. But in Cleveland we have to get used to the words "Scaled Down". Because going forward that is just the reality of it.

Read the Plain Dealer much

Great information and descriptions, guys! UrbanOhio once again rocks as the best place to find out what's going without going to all the meetings (be they public or backroom).

Absolutely this is the place to get information especially when the Plain Dealer describes the situation very differently from the reports above.

 

http://blog.cleveland.com/metro/2009/02/medical_marts_wouldbe_develope.html

Medical mart's would-be developers breeze through session with no time left for critics

Posted by Jim Nichols/Plain Dealer Reporter February 12, 2009 23:05PM

 

 

 

The Plain Dealer has added a video to there blog posting.  Mr. Don Scott is my new hero!

 

http://blog.cleveland.com/metro/2009/02/forest_city_makes_another_bid.html

 

Amen!

Thanks for all the info McCleve. I'm am kinda hoping that their MM building helps finish off the Burnham plan with a similar looking structure to the surrounding ones. I'm also wondering, being that the hideous county buildings would be wiped out with this project that it would fast track plans for a new county office tower. Maybe on public square?

^That would be nice, but I think we're far more likely to see the county offices move to the Higbee building. After all its got some empty space that FCE had saved in case the MM wanted it.

Medical mart's would-be developers breeze through session with no time left for critic

Leave it to the Plain Dealer to slant the process.

 

Even the idiots on cleveland.bomb are calling the Plain Dealer out on their misleading title.

The most exciting/important thing about this project is the development it provokes.  Just like the Healthline, it is only a beginning...something to spur growth in the most stagnant area of downtown. 

 

Hi all,

 

Why not take it a step further, take over the Justice Center as well. Tear down the Cleveland Police headquarters and two jail buildings. Remove the god awful facade from the courts tower, replacing it with glass, and converting it to a convention hotel. Expand the convention space under Ontario St. The city would then have a convention center that ran from E 6th. St. to W 3rd St.. There is enough vacant land downtown for the county to a new courts building. Of course this would no doubt run to close to billion dollars. Warm nuzzles and bear hugz to all.

 

Jim S.

 

 

 

^I agree. I was a big fan of the work LMN did in the initial renderings. But in Cleveland we have to get used to the words "Scaled Down". Because going forward that is just the reality of it.

 

Apparently you missed the portion about these just being massings.  At several points during the presentation they even said, "we're not exactly sure what this is going to look like..." :roll:

I gave MMPI a lot a credit for sticking with this project. FCE and GCP have really tried to ruin this project from the start. I'm getting the feeling MMPI really thinks this can be very profitable for their company. Do any of you think FCE will back off, or will they continue to discredit MMPI’s selection?

that's the million dollar question.  I mean to be honest, people could debate the site selection for eternity.  They picked a site, let's get the engineering study complete and move on.

I gave MMPI a lot a credit for sticking with this project. FCE and GCP have really tried to ruin this project from the start. I'm getting the feeling MMPI really thinks this can be very profitable for their company. Do any of you think FCE will back off, or will they continue to discredit MMPI%u2019s selection?

 

FCE fights the good fight even when they are wrong.  See Brooklyn.  Keep in mind MMPI, stated that the flats is there second choice as a location for this project, if the mall site does not work out.

 

FCE could/should use the money they put into real estate litigation into building at least two 4/5 star hotels in downtown Cleveland that will be ready to open prior to the medical marts completion and opening.

I don't think MMPI and local developers and power brokers will ever be friends. MMPI has taken

'their' bone.

^Good point. They may be disappointed Tower City was not chosen; however, this project will help Tower City. Like I said in an earlier post, they should focus other development opportunities downtown.