Quote X: From your local FCE news outlet (aka Plain Dealer)

 

hahahahaha

Zero leadership, when our region desperately needs it.

 

Perfect example of my previous post.  Can you further explain what you mean?

Until the lawyers hammer out the deal with the county; Until the CITY of Cleveland enters into good faith negotiations with MMPI, this is not going to move forward. Frank, Joe and Sabrina have publicly stated that the Forest City Site was their preference. Let's see where their loyalty lies, with the citizens of Cleveland or to their campaign coffers. MMPI and the county better get busy. It is stall and delay until the thousand cuts take their cumulative effect. Putting the heat to them in this election year is the only way to move them off the dime. This roller coaster ride has lasted much too long for a project that has been dubbed imperative to the regions future. Where is the leadership?? 

 

I can't say that I disagree. Frank has said he prefers TC, but at the same time he has said he wants what best for the city in the sale of convention center.

 

I would say the same thing as that is exactly what has to happen.

 

 

 

Yep, sorry I didn't answer yesterday!  Regional leadership throughout this whole process has been lacking- primarily in the site selection process.  The process was needed, with both the private sector (Forest City) and the City of Cleveland's current mall site's strengths and weaknesses being looked at over and over again.  Leadership was not shown in regards to the best interests of the public with the Mall site.  How and why it would not benefit the public to use something that the public already owns is a matter in of itself.  However, WE know the reason why no one came up to bat for the current site, which speaks more so of corruption than leadership.

 

The mayor?  I have to say that I like his policies in regards to the neighborhoods of the city, however, he himself has shown no leadership till the end of the game (it is an election year, of course).  The county commissioners, all three of them, are currently letting this site selection process drag out EVEN AFTER the Mall site was chosen.  The local news media (namely the PD) has clearly been biased in regards to the selection process, in addition to the GCP.

 

When is someone, who is an elected official, going to say that this site selection is over, let's move on and get this important project going?  Why drag it on even further just to see another proposal from Forest City which is going to be even more watered down than their original proposal in 2005?   

 

We know that this project is important to the region.  Enough with the bullsh#t, lets get it moving.  Sorry for the rant, that's just how I feel, dammit!! :whip:

Zero leadership, when our region desperately needs it.

 

Perfect example of my previous post.  Can you further explain what you mean?

Until the lawyers hammer out the deal with the county; Until the CITY of Cleveland enters into good faith negotiations with MMPI, this is not going to move forward. Frank, Joe and Sabrina have publicly stated that the Forest City Site was their preference. Let's see where their loyalty lies, with the citizens of Cleveland or to their campaign coffers. MMPI and the county better get busy. It is stall and delay until the thousand cuts take their cumulative effect. Putting the heat to them in this election year is the only way to move them off the dime. This roller coaster ride has lasted much too long for a project that has been dubbed imperative to the regions future. Where is the leadership?? 

 

I can't say that I disagree. Frank has said he prefers TC, but at the same time he has said he wants what best for the city in the sale of convention center.

 

I would say the same thing as that is exactly what has to happen.

 

 

 

Yep, sorry I didn't answer yesterday!  Regional leadership throughout this whole process has been lacking- primarily in the site selection process.  The process was needed, with both the private sector (Forest City) and the City of Cleveland's current mall site's strengths and weaknesses being looked at over and over again.  Leadership was not shown in regards to the best interests of the public with the Mall site.  How and why it would not benefit the public to use something that the public already owns is a matter in of itself.  However, WE know the reason why no one came up to bat for the current site, which speaks more so of corruption than leadership.

 

The mayor?  I have to say that I like his policies in regards to the neighborhoods of the city, however, he himself has shown no leadership till the end of the game (it is an election year, of course).  The county commissioners, all three of them, are currently letting this site selection process drag out EVEN AFTER the Mall site was chosen.  The local news media (namely the PD) has clearly been biased in regards to the selection process, in addition to the GCP.

 

When is someone, who is an elected official, going to say that this site selection is over, let's move on and get this important project going?  Why drag it on even further just to see another proposal from Forest City which is going to be even more watered down than their original proposal in 2005?   

 

We know that this project is important to the region.  Enough with the bullsh#t, lets get it moving.  Sorry for the rant, that's just how I feel, dammit!! :whip:

 

 

Personally, I believe the Mayor had to walk a fine line since this is a county project.

 

The way I view it, is he wants/wanted to sell or either reuse the current convention center so all he could really do is say "he wants whats best for Cleveland".  If he would have come out and public stated he prefers x to x then it would appear that he influencing the decision or being influenced to make a decision.

 

I'm not being an apologist for the Mayor, but this is a situation that its easier where it's easier to be a Monday morning quarterback.  I think we all might do/say different things, than we've said here, if we were in the Mayors position.

The site selection will become final once MMPI's engineering study re the old foundation is confirmed.  Until then, FCE and Wolstein (and the PD) can hold out hope.

When pigs fly, Wolstein's proposal will fly right along side them. He just paid out his REIT Diversified Development(appox 2.50/share) dividends with  cash + stock to stay as liquid as possible in this market. Money's tight, times are hard and his flats project is froze for lack of outside investment funds.

Sorry,I digress.

Let's try to keep it about the Medical Mart, and not so much past Cleveland politicians.

from the PD

 

Site for convention center may be picked in a month

Wednesday, December 08, 2004

Tom Breckenridge

Plain Dealer Reporter

 

 

dont know if this has been pointed out yet... but i accidentally went to page one and read the first three sentences and just about died laughing. here we are 115 pages and over 4 years later and people are still talking about the site.. and the PD is still making up BULL ;) :D ;D :D

 

i am extremely happy that cleveland is doing this.

 

its incredibly stimulating, positive, and people who dont know our city will really be surprised and impressed at this project.

There was a story on the front page of Crain's this week (2/23/09), subscriber only, so there's no link, that  Nehst Studios is "prepared to bring production of $80 million to $100 million of moviemaking - two years output- to a production center at the Cleveland Convention Center if, as expected, the Ohio General Assembly passes a film tax credit bill."

 

I would assume that can't happen if the Convention Center is refurbished for a medical mart. I also assume there's enough other vacant space around for movie production.

I know that Frank Jackson has talked about keeping space available for a production company in the new convention center, too. I think it hinges on the space being available .. as in, as long as there aren't other events booked, they can use it.

oh boy...

 

http://blog.cleveland.com/metro/2009/02/forest_city_says_it_can_build.html

 

Forest City says it can build medical mart for $26 million less

Posted by Jim Nichols/Plain Dealer Reporter

February 26, 2009 11:09AM

 

 

CLEVELAND — Forest City Enterprises this morning said it can build a new convention center and medical mart behind its Tower City property for $26 million less than if the facility is put up at the site of Cleveland's current convention center.

 

Forest City's plan, unveiled at the Cuyahoga County Mayors and City Managers meeting, calls for a three-story structure, with the medical mart on the second floor at the level of the food court inside Tower City. The previous model for the development there had the mart in the old Higbee building...

 

oh boy indeed.

 

 

Yep.  This is what we've been waiting for. 

But Forest City Enterprises is still involved, which means the Medical Mart folks still won't bite. I understand that business is business, but is $26 million enough for the Medical Mart to get in bed with FCE? Time will tell (then again, it might not since the site has been decided umpteen times since the 1990s yet nothing has been built -- just build the f*cker).

Waiting on Osborn to drive a stake in.. you get the gist.

GP, I think you said you expected the analysis by Osborn to be honest and straightforward, I think since it isn't being commissioned by an influential group.  Is there any reason to think it would be influenced otherwise? 

I personally dont care which site (of the two) it gets built on. I think it can work well at either location. FCE has me now. 26 million in taxpayer savings with massively declining sales tax revenue. Cuts in the budget have to come somewhere, this seems ideal. I dont, however, understand how FCE refuses to budge on their land price of 40 million. What the hell else is going to go there and pay that price? Cut that in half and I'm sure MMPI will turn their head and FCE still makes money while boosting TC. Greedy idiots.

If this turns into a bidding war of slapping up the cheapest facility, lets just throw the med mart in a pole barn next to the IX Center and call it a day.

So, the entrance to the Med mart is going to be at the food court level?  That sounds real appealing.

GP, I think you said you expected the analysis by Osborn to be honest and straightforward, I think since it isn't being commissioned by an influential group.   Is there any reason to think it would be influenced otherwise?  

 

Anything is possible according to Don Micheal. Engineers are detail and math oriented. They make decisions that literally can costs lives and fortunes. What I am banking on is their international hard won reputation being one of the best.   

So, the entrance to the Med mart is going to be at the food court level? That sounds real appealing.

 

Yeah, you eat too much Toxic Hell, then go to the med mart to get a stent or prosthetic heart valve.

If $55 million is being shaved off the TC site by the lowering price of concrete then I certainly hope that same factor is being included in the Mall site.  That's not a site dependent savings, afterall.

^That was my first thought when I read the article.

 

My second thought was that the $40 million dollar price tag is going to get lowered if/when MMPI still prefers the mall site, just to drag this out and make us all hate FCE even more.

I believe the price of concrete has a much more dramatic effect on price tag for the TC site due to the re-use of the existing foundation at the mall site.

 

I agree with the earlier stated concern that this could turn into a "who can build it the cheapest" contest and quality of the product would be lost in the shuffle.  I wonder what was planned for those two floors that are now being discarded.  Actually, I guess you would have to ask what was planned for three of the floors that are not part of the new plans considering that the MM would now occupy one of the floors that remains in the plans.  Doesn't sound like a "first-class" facility to me. 

 

Didn't MMPI state that they want the MM in a separate building?

Simple solution:  have county residents vote on the location.

I don't trust county residents to make the right choice.

I'm going to trust the opinion of MMPI.  They so far have impressed me.  If they decide TC is the site, I will not complain too loudly. 

What I am really waiting for is for MMPI to blow a gapping hole in this latest attempt by FC.

Simple solution:  have county residents vote on the location.

 

That would be a nightmare and further delay things.

 

So, the entrance to the Med mart is going to be at the food court level? That sounds real appealing.

 

Have you been to the Merchandise Mart?  One of the entrances is via a food court with a Jamba Juice and other "upscale" fast food options.  It actually looks very nice.

 

Also, there are two things that conventioneers always have a huge problem finding (I've been to my fair share of conventions):

 

- Food (decent or otherwise)

- Distractions during lunch time

 

If there is one advantage that the FCE has always had is that it is "tied" to Tower City.  Conventioneers would absolutely love the fact that they can get away for lunch into a shopping mall.

 

Having said that, I prefer the Mall site, because of the spinoff development that it can create.

 

The only thing that would sway me back to FCE is if they ever decided to put their housing proposal on the Scranton Peninsula back on the table.

Forest City Enterprises cuts convention center/medical mart cost estimate

 

 

By JAY MILLER

 

3:12 pm, February 26, 2009

 

There is an improved, lower-priced bid in for a convention center and merchandise medical mart complex at Tower City Center in downtown Cleveland, but the company responsible for building the center already is saying that Forest City Enterprises Inc. has cut corners on the details to bring the cost down.

 

 

 

 

http://crainscleveland.com/article/20090226/FREE/902269957

 

 

I guess it would only be fair to hear Wolstein's pitch as well, huh?  And so the process continues, with no leadership.

Why is it always made to seem like the mall site is so far away from downtown amenities like restaurants, public transportation, etc.  The mall site is practically on public square.  You could throw a baseball from there and hit the Tower City 11.

www.Thelakefrontsite.com

 

is the pitch from the Flats East Bank

Welcome to the forum - though I think the "experts" need a spellchecker ;-)

 

OOPs - thanks for the catch :)

There are zero hotel rooms and restaurants within a 10 minute walk of the Wolstein's proposal.  The Mall 2800. TC 1800. Appox. figures.

The East Bank is dead in the water until more financing materializes. While you can not say it is abandoned ( their still pitching it ) in these tough economic times, I will not be putting any money down for a  East Bank condo in the foreseeable future.

There are zero hotel rooms and restaurants within a 10 minute walk of the Wolstein's proposal.  The Mall 2800. TC 1800. Appox. figures.

The East Bank is dead in the water until more financing materializes. While you can not say it is abandoned ( their still pitching it ) in these tough economic times, I will not be putting any money down for a  East Bank condo in the foreseeable future.

 

Maybe Wolstein is telling them he'll build a 1500 room hotel as part of FEB ;)

Given that they tore so much down, the FEB better not be abandoned.  That site definitely needs the most peripheral construction and business development before it would be viable, and it offers the least amount of boost for existing downtown businesses.  That said, I still like it better that the TC proposal.

If you page through the FEB proposal you will see a new 500 room hotel is proposed for the site.

 

When the project takes off - more rooms will be needed.

 

The concern about the Mall or FEC site is the lack of available adjacent land for development for Hotels (or any other private investment for that matter)

 

Also - The 1800 at TC is connected via the under-utilized waterfront line.

We'll probably see Wolstein try to push for a casino there next. The convention center there makes zero sense to me. We would get a huge box surrounded by surface parking to cover the rest of the lakefront.

If you page through the FEB proposal you will see a new 500 room hotel is proposed for the site.

 

When the project takes off - more rooms will be needed.

 

The concern about the Mall or FEC site is the lack of available adjacent land for development for Hotels (or any other private investment for that matter)

 

Also - The 1800 at TC is connected via the under-utilized waterfront line.

 

Lack of available adjacent land? West quadrant of Public Square as well as our massive surface parking mecca behind that? As well as that triangle on superior and prospect where the Renaissance was going to expand? Dude, we got potential vacant spots all over downtown I'd like to see infilled before we spread more IMO.

If you page through the FEB proposal you will see a new 500 room hotel is proposed for the site.

 

When the project takes off - more rooms will be needed.

 

The concern about the Mall or FEC site is the lack of available adjacent land for development for Hotels (or any other private investment for that matter)

 

Also - The 1800 at TC is connected via the under-utilized waterfront line.

 

Question.  Is the 500 rooms (imoh still not enough) the 1 Hotel previously announced in the FEB plan or is this an additional hotel that will have 500 rooms??

 

The FEB site is a waste, and if built its another venue that takes space away from the water front we are so desperately trying to reclaim and connect with the CBD.

"The concern about the Mall or FEC site is the lack of available adjacent land for development for Hotels (or any other private investment for that matter)"

 

Available and scraped clean land? Okay, I can see that - but available sites for hotel development? There's the Lincoln Building on the southeast corner of St. Clair and East 6th (along with a parking lot just south of the building) - back in the day there was a proposal for a large hotel there (renderings from Fleischman & Partners):

 

 

 

Then there's the Rockwell Building (former NBC building) which recently was proposed for a renovation into a Staybridge Suites.

 

As for the Tower City site, there's plenty of adjacent sites - the "Courthouse Plaza" site (just west of the Federal Court House), the parking lots along the river, the air rights above the garage entrance off Superior (between Prospect and Superior) as well as the "Lebron Wall" site on the southwestern corner of Landmark Office Towers.

 

Now - are all those sites viable/desirable? Maybe, maybe not but it's not completely accurate to say there's NO adjacent land for development in either proposal.

 

Not to cut it short BUT the site has been chosen. The Osborn Report is due out any day. I expect the County and MMPI to finalize their contract shortly thereafter and negotiations with the City to begin in good faith, earnestly and quickly.

Where is the land is this picture?

 

Where are the two best natural features of our town?

 

Public dollars should be used to leverage private investment.

 

"Make no little plans...."

I never seen or heard of that proposal and I can see the Ameritrust tower in the background. :-(

"Public dollars should be used to leverage private investment."

 

Ironic that Cleveland Browns Stadium (possibly one of the worst places for that kind of facility) is the closest landmark to this line in your post ;-)

 

No offense but your reply is great for PR/boosterism for the Flats East Bank, but it doesn't really address any of the posts that question your assertions. That's not a very persuasive approach, imho.

Where is the land is this picture?

 

Where are the two best natural features of our town?

 

Public dollars should be used to leverage private investment.

 

"Make no little plans...."

Where is the land is this picture?

 

Where are the two best natural features of our town?

 

Public dollars should be used to leverage private investment.

 

"Make no little plans...."

 

Where is the land? ZOOM IN!!

I never seen or heard of that proposal and I can see the Ameritrust tower in the background. :-(

 

Regardless, that's freakin sweet!  I'd never heard of that plan either.  I've always thought the mall area is our best bet for new skyscrapers.  Give us this plus Ameritrust, as in the picture, and our skyline is better than a lot of places twice the size!

^All well and good but let's keep this about the Convention Center/Med Mart - not the skyline :-)

Fountainhead, I think your strongest case is what all can develop in the FEB using this as an anchor.  People aren't going to buy that there isn't developable land elsewhere downtown.  And IMHO it does seem like casinos might be a better centerpiece for the flats anyway.  I'd rather have the convention traffic as centrally located as possible within downtown.  Destination entertainment (i.e. casino) would capitalize on the flats' existing national reputation much better than a comparatively sterile CC would.  If Wolstein is just pushing this CC plan to keep his fires warm until casinos pass, more power to him.