Dan Gilbert is a very smart guy, and if that is his opinion, so be it. However, the timing seems very suspicious. Does anyone know if Gilbert's attempt to bring gambling to Ohio in anyway tied to FCE?

Wonder if Gilbert was so adamant about this that he would hold off signing Lebron in '10 as bait. 

^That would equate to him loosing $$$$$.  If it ain't making dollars, it ain't making sense (or cents, WHICHEVER!).

 

Sir2gees- I think that answer is in the gambling thread, with the proposed gambling location being close to both Tower City and The Q.

Dan Gilbert is a very smart guy, and if that is his opinion, so be it. However, the timing seems very suspicious. Does anyone know if Gilbert's attempt to bring gambling to Ohio in anyway tied to FCE?

 

Gilbert has options on the land that is  owned by someone down in the gully.

How dare elected officials defy Dan Gilbert and other prominant business men and newspapers!  Don't they know who runs this town!!!

Please- Gilbert is filthy rich...he doesnt have any more wealth to gain by medical mart, it wont change his life.  Is it too hard to honestly believe that the guy wants to help out this city?  He has made references to what has failed in detroit...he probably wants to be known more for what his power was able to change than how much wealth he accumulated.

How is putting the CC on the mall anywhere comparable to something in Detroit.  It's not like we're putting this thing out on E55th.  Gilbert, stick to winning a championship and leave the city building to people that (maybe, ok, they don't , but they're right in this instance) know what they're doing.

And really, other than FCE, Gilbert, and Dolan, where is all this critisism that the PD speaks of coming from?

Please- Gilbert is filthy rich...he doesnt have any more wealth to gain by medical mart, it wont change his life. Is it too hard to honestly believe that the guy wants to help out this city? He has made references to what has failed in detroit...he probably wants to be known more for what his power was able to change than how much wealth he accumulated.

 

He said to not spread things out, like they did in Detroit. However, I don't think that is an issue here. The Medical Mart/Convention Center is about a 5-10 minute walk to the Gateway District and Public Square with a rail connection to Tower City. Also, just because someone is rich doesn't mean that he doesn't want more money.

^Well then I guess we can just criticize him for being wrong and ill informed...especially the part about being underground.  An underground convention center is ideal as the buildings usually look like warehouses and sap life from the streets they border with massive blank walls and the like...and once you are inside one you usually feel as if you are underground anyway.

Of course rich people don't want to get richer.  That's why they support progressive taxation and transfer payments, right?  Right?  Gilbert is a fine man, but his conflict of interest on this is clear.  He would benefit if his casino project went through and had its own contiguous convention center with foot traffic virtually guaranteed by MMPI.  That being the case, he should back off.  This is the kind of behavior the region needs to begin rejecting with some umph.  Calling someone out on self-dealing is not anti-business.     

How is putting the CC on the mall anywhere comparable to something in Detroit.  It's not like we're putting this thing out on E55th.  Gilbert, stick to winning a championship and leave the city building to people that (maybe, ok, they don't , but they're right in this instance) know what they're doing.

And really, other than FCE, Gilbert, and Dolan, where is all this critisism that the PD speaks of coming from?

 

^No where else.  This is where business and sound urban planning seem to collide.  From an urban planning perspective, the mall site is superior and would benefit the city the most.  Competing business interests will always claim that their site is superior, as they have the most to gain from the convention center/medical mart being built on their property.  The City Planning Commission voted back in 2004 to leave the convention center where it is now, but planners have very little power in regards to what actually happens.

Of course rich people don't want to get richer.  That's why they support progressive taxation and transfer payments, right?  Right?  Gilbert is a fine man, but his conflict of interest on this is clear.  He would benefit if his casino project went through and had its own contiguous convention center with foot traffic virtually guaranteed by MMPI.  That being the case, he should back off.  This is the kind of behavior the region needs to begin rejecting with some umph.  Calling someone out on self-dealing is not anti-business.     

 

AMEN!

How is putting the CC on the mall anywhere comparable to something in Detroit.  It's not like we're putting this thing out on E55th.  Gilbert, stick to winning a championship and leave the city building to people that (maybe, ok, they don't , but they're right in this instance) know what they're doing.

And really, other than FCE, Gilbert, and Dolan, where is all this critisism that the PD speaks of coming from?

 

I comes at the behest of FCE thru Joe Roman and the Greater Cleveland Partnership. The powerful are pissed. Everyone including the PeeDee is having their ability, to exert their will and credibility placed on the line.

Of course rich people don't want to get richer. That's why they support progressive taxation and transfer payments, right? Right? Gilbert is a fine man, but his conflict of interest on this is clear. He would benefit if his casino project went through and had its own contiguous convention center with foot traffic virtually guaranteed by MMPI. That being the case, he should back off. This is the kind of behavior the region needs to begin rejecting with some umph. Calling someone out on self-dealing is not anti-business.

 

All which would help the city.  It seems to me that gilbert would be most satisfied when he died if people said "Dan Gilbert saved the city of Cleveland", rather than "Dan Gilbert is a multi-billionaire"...establishing a legacy will last a heck of a lot longer than those billions.

There is a good chance that building this project at the spot most advantageous to Gilbert would harm the city.  Regardless of what Gilbert may think or feel, his conflict of interest is real and not subjective.  MMPI has indicated that delays are the problem here, not site selection, and they've already weighed in on the site Gilbert prefers.  So no, Gilbert cannot help by adding to our partner's frustration or by challenging our partner's clear determination about the site.

Why if these people are so good at what they do Gilbert, Dolan, FCE, etc..are they clammoring for these tax dollars and screaming like this is the only possible project to do downtown. I want everybody to quit whining and swing for the fences, show some imagination instead of fighting over what should be and probably is a done deal. It speaks volumes that MMPI is a succesful company and wants nothing to do with FCE.

None of them has ever answered what to do with the current Convention Center if it is not rennovated. It is already a drain on the city. The soundstage is a nice stop gap measure but it is no answer. I tell you what will happen to FCE's parcel it will stay a parking lot and keep generating revenue for them.

 

Gilbert acknowledged that he could gain financially if the convention center were built along the Cuyahoga River behind Tower City. Gilbert recently became an investor in the Ohio Jobs and Growth Plan, a partnership trying to get casinos approved in Ohio. Voter approval could mean construction of a casino behind Tower City Center, where Gilbert holds an option on the land.

 

That is the financial motivation.  As for building it near our assets, do we have a better asset than the Lake and Rock Hall?

Gilbert acknowledged that he could gain financially if the convention center were built along the Cuyahoga River behind Tower City. Gilbert recently became an investor in the Ohio Jobs and Growth Plan, a partnership trying to get casinos approved in Ohio. Voter approval could mean construction of a casino behind Tower City Center, where Gilbert holds an option on the land.

 

That is the financial motivation. As for building it near our assets, do we have a better asset than the Lake and Rock Hall?

 

I guess I just can't figure out how one makes the argument that the Mall is NOT "close" to anything that the TC site would be.  I mean, common folks, I could probably walk from Playhouse Square to the WHD in less than 15 minutes.  Downtown just ain't that big.

To get to the truth, ask yourself what the Plain Dealer would be writing if the exact same agreement between the County and MMPI were reached, only MMPI thought that the Tower City site was a fine one and wanted to build there. 

 

Can you imagine how the PD would vilify any business interests who tried to question and stonewall the agreement as obstructing a needed shot in the arm to Cleveland's economy?

They would celebrate the agreement, just as they celebrated the tax increase.  Remember when the commissioners let the public have a week to comment before they raised the tax.  At the time they said it was SOP.  Now, the Plain Dealer tried to say that the only reason the commissioners gave the contract a week for public comment was because they threatened a lawsuit.

I recall that at least one convention booking expert indicating that the mall site would be inferior to Tower City, because it was blocks away from the types of downtown life that conventioneers seek.  Well, as it happens, I just got back from the HIMSS Conference at McCormick Place in Chicago, attended by around 30,000 health care and IT types.  While there is a Hyatt Hotel at the convention center, the hotels, restaurants, culture, shopping and entertainment of the Loop and River North are a few MILES away from the convention center.  I got there each day by riding one of ten shuttle bus routes from my hotel (near the Water Tower).  Even moving among sessions and keynotes within the vast center (equal to approximately three Cleveland IX Centers), it felt like I was walking farther in the building than from the mall site to Public Square.  The exhibit areas even have columns holding up the ceiling, another alleged disadvantage of the Cleveland Convention Center.  And with all of this, they do just fine.  While the distances became a little annoying after a couple days, I have to say, I did find the architecure "soaring and open."  It was exciting to be in such a facility. I have to say that as a Clevelander visiting Chicago, I sensed how Gulliver must have felt in Brobdingnag.  The city blocks and building sizes felt very "scaled up" compared to what I am used to.  My compliments to Chicagoans for their incredible downtown with life everywhere and downtown residences some as high as 60-70 stories in every direction. 

 

Let's hope that Cleveland can do a first rate center. 

 

As an aside, I was curious as to the maximum attendence that the proposed downtown convention center could handle. 

^yeah, I used to live in the south loop, actually about 200 yards from the Hyatt, if you think it, if you think it is desolate now, you should have seen it 5 years ago.

 

Anywho, it looks like Tim Hagan has some health problems, I hope he is OK.

 

Cuyahoga County commissioners OK convention center pact

 

 

By JAY MILLER

 

 

 

12:52 pm, April 16, 2009

 

 

 

Cuyahoga County commissioners this morning unanimously approved an agreement with developer Merchandise Mart Properties Inc. of Chicago to build a convention center and medical merchandise mart in downtown Cleveland.

 

However, the much-awaited agreement is only the beginning of a long process.

PRINTED FROM: http://www.crainscleveland.com/apps/pbcs.dll/artikkel?Avis=CC&Dato=20090416&Kategori=FREE&Lopenr=904169963&Ref=AR&template=printart

"Mr. Nance said those agreements could take a year to complete."

 

As my friend Daniel says, "Oh, good gravy."

 

(He's from the South.)

the convention center at tower city had been developed architecturally, at the beginning, with casino's included. thats a fact. My guess is that should be FCE's next step with that land.. they have enough room to build a baller hotel and a few sick casinos. its better land for that than a convention center.

 

 

Attorney Fred Nance, who has steered the development agreement negotiations for the county, told the commissioners that a series of four more agreements will replace this development agreement. The county and MMPI must negotiate agreements that will govern construction, financing and operations of the convention complex as well as a lease of the new building itself.

 

Mr. Nance said those agreements could take a year to complete.

 

 

There's a fox in the hen house. He should have been released after the GCP boondoggle.

 

Attorney Fred Nance, who has steered the development agreement negotiations for the county, told the commissioners that a series of four more agreements will replace this development agreement. The county and MMPI must negotiate agreements that will govern construction, financing and operations of the convention complex as well as a lease of the new building itself.

 

Mr. Nance said those agreements could take a year to complete.

 

 

There's a fox in the hen house. He should have been released after the GCP boondoggle.

 

 

Agreed.  If I were the project manager at MMPI, I would be out of this.  I would just build the medical mart and leave the county on the hook for a cc.  This is the height of BS.

 

the convention center at tower city had been developed architecturally, at the beginning, with casino's included. thats a fact. My guess is that should be FCE's next step with that land.. they have enough room to build a baller hotel and a few sick casinos. its better land for that than a convention center.

 

 

 

Why are people so hooked on a damn casino?  FCE cannot operate a mall, why hell do you think they would be able to own and operate a casino?  This discussion has no place in THIS thread.

 

 

Attorney Fred Nance, who has steered the development agreement negotiations for the county, told the commissioners that a series of four more agreements will replace this development agreement. The county and MMPI must negotiate agreements that will govern construction, financing and operations of the convention complex as well as a lease of the new building itself.

 

Mr. Nance said those agreements could take a year to complete.

 

 

There's a fox in the hen house. He should have been released after the GCP boondoggle.

 

 

Agreed. If I were the project manager at MMPI, I would be out of this. I would just build the medical mart and leave the county on the hook for a cc. This is the height of BS.

 

the convention center at tower city had been developed architecturally, at the beginning, with casino's included. thats a fact. My guess is that should be FCE's next step with that land.. they have enough room to build a baller hotel and a few sick casinos. its better land for that than a convention center.

 

 

 

Why are people so hooked on a damn casino? FCE cannot operate a mall, why hell do you think they would be able to own and operate a casino? This discussion has no place in THIS thread.

 

 

 

One of the problems is you have the exact same players in every project and it is killing us.  I was hoping the MM would help break this cycle and lure outside investment.

Attorney Fred Nance, who has steered the development agreement negotiations for the county, told the commissioners that a series of four more agreements will replace this development agreement. The county and MMPI must negotiate agreements that will govern construction, financing and operations of the convention complex as well as a lease of the new building itself.

 

Mr. Nance said those agreements could take a year to complete.

 

 

There's a fox in the hen house. He should have been released after the GCP boondoggle.

 

 

Agreed.  If I were the project manager at MMPI, I would be out of this.  I would just build the medical mart and leave the county on the hook for a cc.  This is the height of BS.

 

the convention center at tower city had been developed architecturally, at the beginning, with casino's included. thats a fact. My guess is that should be FCE's next step with that land.. they have enough room to build a baller hotel and a few sick casinos. its better land for that than a convention center.

 

 

 

Why are people so hooked on a damn casino?  FCE cannot operate a mall, why hell do you think they would be able to own and operate a casino?  This discussion has no place in THIS thread.

 

 

 

One of the problems is you have the exact same players in every project and it is killing us.  I was hoping the MM would help break this cycle and lure outside investment.

 

I think they will.  They are about "business" and making money.

Attorney Fred Nance, who has steered the development agreement negotiations for the county, told the commissioners that a series of four more agreements will replace this development agreement. The county and MMPI must negotiate agreements that will govern construction, financing and operations of the convention complex as well as a lease of the new building itself.

 

Mr. Nance said those agreements could take a year to complete.

 

 

There's a fox in the hen house. He should have been released after the GCP boondoggle.

 

 

None of this is particularly odd or unwarranted.  The man just understands billables.  And considering the convention dominance of Las Vegas, casinos seem like a reasonable place to go with this.  Don't tell me it's about the weather in Las Vegas, because people never go outside there.  I don't think it's about the weather at all.  It's about entertainment.  I see this project working at least twice as well if we get a casino downtown by the time it's done.

Cavaliers owner Dan Gilbert calls medical mart site a mistake, points to Detroit's downtown

Posted by Michael Scott/Plain Dealer Reporter April 19, 2009 04:00AM

Categories: Medical Mart, Real Time News

Tracy Boulian/The Plain DealerCleveland Cavaliers owner Dan Gilbert believes building the medical mart/convention center at the mall site would be a mistake. Gilbert points to Detroit's decision to spread out three casinos in its downtown area.

 

Related content

 

• Analyze the agreement

 

• Download the entire agreement(PDF)

 

• Design guidelines: Spaces (PDF), Functions (PDF), Systems (PDF)

 

• For more coverage visit cleveland.com/medicalmart

Dan Gilbert said he was there more than a decade ago when his native Detroit -- a city briefly blessed with that rare blend of ample public money, clear political will and public support -- blew a chance to redefine its downtown, its very civic identity.

 

He said Detroit leaders made a disastrous decision in the 1990s to scatter three casinos around that city -- instead of clustering them downtown.

 

More at

http://blog.cleveland.com/metro/2009/04/cleveland_cavaliers_owner_dan.html#previewhttp://blog.cleveland.com/metro/2009/04/cleveland_cavaliers_owner_dan.html#previewCleveland

Who writes these headlines?

 

Here comes Joe Cimperman. I talked to him on the phone 2 weeks ago and he assured me he supported the Mall Site. I knew he was lying when he said it, but I let it pass thinking he was finally came around to to protecting the City's interest in the Convention Center. Stupid me.

 

Joe and Frank both need to go. They will kill this project.

Cipermann wants "more debate" about the site.  They have been debating the convention center site for 10 years.  More debate means I don't agree with the decision to place it on the mall.  When they decide to place it where I want it then the debate can end.

 

I never agreed in the past with the posters who made dire predictions that the Mart people were going to abandon the project because of all this nonsense but I am starting to be a believer.

 

What kills me about these articles is the stupid, ill informed comments these "people in power" make which the generally ill informed public is suppose to take as gospel.

 

I won't even get into the clear agenda and campaign the Plain Dealer is running.

geez, what next? so what do steinbrenner and the dolans think? what would drew carey do?  :roll:

 

 

Developers and REIT's from all over the country are watching this. They want to see if Cleveland will remain a 'closed shop' for development. This really is a project about the community's future. It will dictate outside investment trends in this city for years to come.

I think the PD is muzzling Litt.

 

Someone said that Jeff Jacobs took out an ad in the paper?  Is this true, or was it joke?

I think the PD is muzzling Litt.

 

Someone said that Jeff Jacobs took out an ad in the paper?  Is this true, or was it joke?

 

I don't/won't buy the PeeDee.

Developers and REIT's from all over the country are watching this. They want to see if Cleveland will remain a 'closed shop' for development. This really is a project about the community's future. It will dictate outside investment trends in this city for years to come.

 

Thats the same thing i'm hearing.  I have a friend at a hotel chain and they want to build a property here, but can't until they see a shovel in the ground.  They too think the "squabbling" is cost the city time and money.

Jacobs has a full page ad supporting the mall site. It's the same old arguments but I think it's great to have a private developer help counter all this Gilbert nonsense.

The Cleveland.bomb folks have made some valid points today.  Many see right thru the PD charade and favor the mall site.  I'm shocked.

I think it's great Dan Gilbert is speaking out on this and, of course, I agree with him.  I just wish he'd spoken out sooner....

 

Is he motivated, in part, at least by self interest as Q owner who would benefit from a Tower City MMPI location?  Absolutely, but so what?  Can't we for once in this town stop being preoccupied with who's getting what and focus on what's best for Cleveland?  I think it's too late and the Mall's a done deal, and that's too bad b/c Dan is hitting on the same points that Tower City advocates (present co. included) have been saying all along (and being a true Detroiter, he's not even focused on the Airport Rapid connection like others are).

I'm not surprised that Litt and other Mall advocates are ignoring the excellent, already connected (as in "indoors" "no snow") arena the Q could represent to MMPI.  People are still mainly motivated by FCE hatred and nostalgia.

 

And you can't deny Gilbert's considerably greater stature (well, not physically anyway) and gravitas than the other biz and political players in this long-running soap opera.  He's an outsider.  He's a 40-something who's built his success on his own (no daddy's $$ like Wolstein, Miller/Ratner and others).  And his viewpoint from the context of stuggling downtown Detroit is heartfelt and ought not be blown off... And even as a Detroiter, he's created downtown Cleveland jobs, and turned our perpetually sorry/mediocre Cavs into the NBA's Gold Standard.... (just look at the "success" of another daddy's-money-owned team playing at the concrete bowl on the lake).

 

And you can quibble with the PD's map all you want, the Mall site IS disconnected and spreads development of our thinly-populated downtown rather than concentrating it.  And no, the PD has not silenced Steve Litt.  It's just that when ever another viewpoint opposing the Mall arises, Mall backers cry foul...

 

... very Limbaugh/Republican of you.

He is motivated because of the casino he wants to build with FCE next to the new CC.  He has already paid FCE money for the option on the land

 

Not seen on the drawing is one key component of Gilbert's vision -- a riverfront casino built on nearby property on which Gilbert has an option, provided voters approve a statewide plan espoused by the Cavs owner.

 

If you did not see that blurb, I don't blame you.  The PD burried in 2/3s of the way down.

 

About his record with the cavs, did LeBron have anything to do with that?

 

 

the convention center at tower city had been developed architecturally, at the beginning, with casino's included. thats a fact. My guess is that should be FCE's next step with that land.. they have enough room to build a baller hotel and a few sick casinos. its better land for that than a convention center.

 

 

 

Why are people so hooked on a damn casino?  FCE cannot operate a mall, why hell do you think they would be able to own and operate a casino?  This discussion has no place in THIS thread.

 

 

 

you know you can be a real jerk sometimes, man. im just commenting on the story.

 

casinos->dan gilbert->FCE/Tower City->medical mart

 

when people talk about dan gilberts motives, it starts with casinos.

 

you really know how to make people feel welcome on this board.. yeesh.

 

the convention center at tower city had been developed architecturally, at the beginning, with casino's included. thats a fact. My guess is that should be FCE's next step with that land.. they have enough room to build a baller hotel and a few sick casinos. its better land for that than a convention center.

 

 

 

Why are people so hooked on a damn casino?  FCE cannot operate a mall, why hell do you think they would be able to own and operate a casino?  This discussion has no place in THIS thread.

 

 

 

you know you can be a real jerk sometimes, man. im just commenting on the story.

 

casinos->dan gilbert->FCE/Tower City->medical mart

 

when people talk about dan gilberts motives, it starts with casinos.

 

you really know how to make people feel welcome on this board.. yeesh.

 

I sure can.  :wink:    However, we have a thread for that and as a repeat taking threads off topic offender, I personally, didn't think we should veer in that direction.

 

Just to be clear, my comments were not meant to stop you from posting or stating your point of view.

Its pretty funny how the way they placed those location bubbles on that PD map makes things look incredibly far apart.  I'm sure if you rearranged them a little you could make it look like everything was right next door.

So, this is the fork in the road for Cleveland, are we going to invest in the Medical Mart, or into a casino? 

Its pretty funny how the way they placed those location bubbles on that PD map makes things look incredibly far apart. I'm sure if you rearranged them a little you could make it look like everything was right next door.

 

Even more funny is that the graphic makes it obvious which of the sites is in the middle of the amenities they list, and which is well off to one side.

The Cleveland.bomb folks have made some valid points today.  Many see right thru the PD charade and favor the mall site.  I'm shocked.

MTS- I read some of these comments too, and while some very valid point were made, there are still some cleveland.bombf*ks who suggest tearing down the abandoned storefronts on Euclid Ave. and building the CC there!

WTF? Are these people with their surrealistic sense of scale and proportion the same people who created the Detroit/Cleveland comparison maps in the PD?

Hey Gang! Remember that spit of land across the street from Progressive Field @ the foot of the Lorain-Carnegie Bridge (Shell station)? Let's build it there! LOL

Its pretty funny how the way they placed those location bubbles on that PD map makes things look incredibly far apart.  I'm sure if you rearranged them a little you could make it look like everything was right next door.

 

At the bottom of the graphic - "NOTE: Maps are not at the same scale."

 

Why not include the scale? Oh nevermind, that would show what a joke this comparison is.

So, this is the fork in the road for Cleveland, are we going to invest in the Medical Mart, or into a casino? 

 

What a choice to choose from...

I think the fact that the maps that they are using to compare the distances of things in the two cities is the biggest example of their bias.