Cipermann wants "more debate" about the site.  They have been debating the convention center site for 10 years.  More debate means I don't agree with the decision to place it on the mall.  When they decide to place it where I want it then the debate can end.

 

I never agreed in the past with the posters who made dire predictions that the Mart people were going to abandon the project because of all this nonsense but I am starting to be a believer.

 

What kills me about these articles is the stupid, ill informed comments these "people in power" make which the generally ill informed public is suppose to take as gospel.

 

I won't even get into the clear agenda and campaign the Plain Dealer is running.

 

Cimperman has never supported the mall site.  He flat out told us at our townhome association meeting back in January that he supported the Tower City site.  He didn't really give good reasoning, in my opinion.

 

And because I'm feeling sarcastic right now (don't anybody take this personally):

"Holy crap!  Downtown is going to be disconnected because a 3 BLOCK walk is required to get from Tower City to the convention center!  The demise of our fair city is near!"  I want scale bars on those maps.  :bang:

I don't think he has any reasoning, on this.  I think he's taking the FCE line.  Whatever reasoning he may attempt to pass off is just cover.  And I was taken aback by the PDs Sunday story about how architecturally stunning a new CC would be behind Tower City.  Nothing built with modern hands could improve upon what's there.  They would cover up a stunning wall of windows with a big flat nothing.  Underground is the best possible place for a giant barn, which is what these things really are.

Jacobs has nothing to lose in this situation, as his parcel is located between both sites.  I don't know of the history between himself and Forest City, but it would seem that his opinion is not as biased as Gilbert's. 

Gilbert's Detroit comparison is really senseless.  Based on his logic, he should be arguing against CSU and the Flats and the Avenue District.  The mall IS the center of downtown and the back of tower city is fringe area... so is gateway.  It was scary to read the PD comments yesterday because so many people just said "he has money, so he must be right."  Soooo many problems start off that way.  The guy wrote some accounting software.  That doesn't make him automatically right about anything.   

You know, the PD's graphic works against their own Gilbert's argument. The mall location is in the middle of, and therefore within walking distance (a couple blocks) of all the other amenities listed (rock hall / GLSC / Q / Prog). Even with the scale issues, and they way the skewed the map so that public square (downtown's center) is pushed up into the top half of the map, if I was merely basing my opinion on that particular graphic, I would say the mall site seems superior.

Jacobs has nothing to lose in this situation, as his parcel is located between both sites.  I don't know of the history between himself and Forest City, but it would seem that his opinion is not as biased as Gilbert's. 

Doesn't Jacobs (or his father) own the parking lot under Mall A, and the Marriott? Those are a lot closer to the mall than the back end of Tower City. I would call that a reason to suspect bias.

Forgive this for being slightly off topic, but still germain to the recent posts.  The PD is having a Q&A on its coverage, at 11 AM!!!

 

Got a beef with The Plain Dealer? Wonder why it covered a particular the story the way it did? Do you have story ideas or suggestions how to make the paper better?

 

Plain Dealer Reader Representative Ted Diadiun is on cleveland.com to chat live with you from The Plain Dealer newsroom about these topics and more in a live weekly video chat every Monday at 11 a.m.

 

Submit your questions in the comments area below and log on to watch and chat with the Reader Rep!

 

If you are interested in becoming part of The Plain Dealer Reader Advisory Network, sign up here.

 

 

^EXCELLENT!!!!!!  I'm on it!!!

You know, the PD's graphic works against their own Gilbert's argument. The mall location is in the middle of, and therefore within walking distance (a couple blocks) of all the other amenities listed (rock hall / GLSC / Q / Prog). Even with the scale issues, and they way the skewed the map so that public square (downtown's center) is pushed up into the top half of the map, if I was merely basing my opinion on that particular graphic, I would say the mall site seems superior.

 

Detroit's casinos are very spread out. Gilbert makes a good point in regards to Detroit, but the mall's connectivity is much much better than he makes it out to be. If the maps were drawn to scale, Gilbert would look like a fool.

^Agreed.  I am getting very tired of people trying to act like the mall is on East 55th.  It's 2.5 blocks from tower city... 2.5 blocks.

 

Oh by the way... I'm also very tired of hearing how the mall site is "underground".  The exhibit hall is underground (with a window wall overlooking lake erie).  The medical mart, CC entrance, and public hall are all above ground.  Guess what... at Tower City... The exhibit hall is... underground (and under a major roadway... with a window wall overlooking scranton penninsula), and the med mart and entrance are above ground (albeit separated from civilazation by a six lane roadway... unless of course... you want to walk underground).

I sent a question regarding the map and Gilbert being held up as an impartial arbitor to the pd feed back guy.  Im hoping UO will be represented there.

 

Lets see how many of our questions are addressed and (conspiracy theory) how many FCE plants complimenting the coverage lately get answered.

Wandering off a bit... I had thought the Detroit casinos were to be concentrated just east of downtown along the river.  These spread-out locations were temporary.  If Detroit went back on its own plan, that's not Cleveland's fault.  Gilbert should go complain to MGM and Motor City.  He's right about them.

Cimperman has never supported the mall site.  He flat out told us at our townhome association meeting back in January that he supported the Tower City site.  He didn't really give good reasoning, in my opinion.

 

Because he gets a lot of campaign donations from Forest City Enterprises. Far too many politicians don't have minds of their own. They are egotistical computers programmed by campaign funders, the 21st century version of marionette puppets.

 

Hi all,

 

This topic has become very boring and tiresome. Wish the Jacobs and the Gilberts wold put there money where their mouth is and build the convention center and medical mart and give it to the city as a gift. But that ain't going to happen. Warm nuzzles and bear hugz to all.

 

Jim S.

Just for fun I did a little math on the maps of Cleveland and Detroit that were in the article.  I took a triangle of driving distances between the 3 points which were generally farthest away on each map.  In Cleveland I went from RRHoF to Prog to TC and got an area of .35 square miles.  In Detroit I went from the MC Casino to the Greektown Casino to the Convention Center and got an area of .72 square miles. 

 

I guess when they said the maps weren't the same scale they weren't kidding.

A disclaimer on a poor piece of work does not make the work better

 

Just for fun I did a little math on the maps of Cleveland and Detroit that were in the article. I took a triangle of driving distances between the 3 points which were generally farthest away on each map. In Cleveland I went from RRHoF to Prog to TC and got an area of .35 square miles. In Detroit I went from the MC Casino to the Greektown Casino to the Convention Center and got an area of .72 square miles.

 

I guess when they said the maps weren't the same scale they weren't kidding.

Ok, I’m tired of the whole “it’s too far away” whining. Today, at lunch, I took a little walk with a notepad and my watch to figure out how far apart these places are on foot in minutes. Keep in mind all of these times are with lunch time traffic, so at other times of day might be longer or shorter.

 

From the front door of the current Convention Center half way up Mall B to the corner of West Mall and St. Clair (Med Mart site) took about 1 min, 30 seconds

 

From the corner of West Mall and St. Clair (Med Mart site) to the Marriott across the road took about 30 seconds

 

From the Marriott to the front door of Tower City took about 4 minutes

 

If my math is correct that means the convention center is all of 6 minutes from Tower City.  Is that really so disconnected? Plus if MMPI puts an entrance to the new CC on St. Clair, they could cut about a minute off that 6 minute walk. And if people are unwilling or unable to walk 5 minutes would they really be willing or able to walk 2 or 3 minutes from the middle of the Tower City to an attached convention center? And if a 5 or 6 minute stroll across downtown is too far, can’t they catch a cab or the B-line loop?

 

All of this is of course assuming that a convention goer wants to take the Red Line from the Airport to a convention and not stay at a hotel downtown, which seems unlikely to me. If you’re talking about the distance between the convention center and the nearest hotel, there’s little doubt that it’s a similar walk (less than 2 minutes) from the current site to either the Crown Plaza or the Marriott than it is from the back end of Tower City to any hotel. (attached or not)

 

Oh, and just to make sure I wasn’t walking too fast and skewing the numbers, I took the stairs from my cubicle on the 25th floor to the lobby on my way out to check how far a walk it is.

 

Hey look at this... someone with an intelligent thought process...

 

http://blog.cleveland.com/architecture/2009/04/developer_ari_maron_blasts_dan.html

 

Developer Ari Maron blasts Dan Gilbert's advocacy of Tower City as convention center site

Posted by Steven Litt / Plain Dealer Architecture Critic

April 20, 2009 10:18AM

 

 

 

As readers of The Plain Dealer know, Detroit businessman Dan Gilbert, owner of the Cavaliers, doesn't like the idea of building the proposed new medical mart and convention center on the Mall.

 

A front page story in the newspaper Sunday quoted Gilbert at length on his views that Tower City Center - connected by a walkway tunnel to the Q, home of the Cavaliers - would make far more sense.

 

Well, Gilbert isn't the only investor in downtown Cleveland with a view on the question...

AMEN!

 

By the way, thank god for Litt

If he ever he runs for anything, I'm voting for Ari Maron.

Ari Maron is GOD!

Ok, Im tired of the whole its too far away whining. Today, at lunch, I took a little walk with a notepad and my watch to figure out how far apart these places are on foot in minutes. Keep in mind all of these times are with lunch time traffic, so at other times of day might be longer or shorter.

 

From the front door of the current Convention Center half way up Mall B to the corner of West Mall and St. Clair (Med Mart site) took about 1 min, 30 seconds

 

From the corner of West Mall and St. Clair (Med Mart site) to the Marriott across the road took about 30 seconds

 

From the Marriott to the front door of Tower City took about 4 minutes

 

If my math is correct that means the convention center is all of 6 minutes from Tower City.  Is that really so disconnected? Plus if MMPI puts an entrance to the new CC on St. Clair, they could cut about a minute off that 6 minute walk. And if people are unwilling or unable to walk 5 minutes would they really be willing or able to walk 2 or 3 minutes from the middle of the Tower City to an attached convention center? And if a 5 or 6 minute stroll across downtown is too far, cant they catch a cab or the B-line loop?

 

All of this is of course assuming that a convention goer wants to take the Red Line from the Airport to a convention and not stay at a hotel downtown, which seems unlikely to me. If youre talking about the distance between the convention center and the nearest hotel, theres little doubt that its a similar walk (less than 2 minutes) from the current site to either the Crown Plaza or the Marriott than it is from the back end of Tower City to any hotel. (attached or not)

 

Oh, and just to make sure I wasnt walking too fast and skewing the numbers, I took the stairs from my cubicle on the 25th floor to the lobby on my way out to check how far a walk it is.

 

 

Excellent.  Thank you.

 

So the TC site has two connected hotels (the two most expensive in downtown).  And the mall site has one connected hotel (Crowne Plaza member of IHG Priority Club, one of the most used travel brands in the industry), and one that could very easily be connected if wanted (Mariott, absolutley one of the most used hotels by business travelers in the country). Hmmm...

"And the mall site has one connected hotel (Crowne Plaza member of IHG Priority Club, one of the most used travel brands in the industry), and one that could very easily be connected if wanted (Mariott, absolutley one of the most used hotels by business travelers in the country)."

 

The Crown is NOW connected to Public Auditorium via a underground walkway. Sorry I read too fast :-D

How come I can't find Litt's article on cleveland.com?

 

Mayor, I plaguarized you on cleveland.bomb

It's on the front page now.  I'm so happy it didn't just get buried.

you have to love the headline don't you?  Ari Maron starts his email talking about his respect for dan gilbert, and likes that he's becoming civicly involved... but he disagrees with his idea of what makes a city vibrant... Headline Editors take: ARI MARON BLASTS DAN GILBERT!  :roll:

I really can't believe how slanted the PD is in its reporting oftentimes. I thought the press wasn't supposed to have an agenda, other than to report the news?!! They make me so sick, I can't even put words to it. I can understand them posting opinions of business leaders FOR the Tower City site. I don't have an issue with that. What I personally have an issue with is the fact that anything going against their slanted agenda is buried deep within other pages or blogs and not given the same amount of unbiased coverage. It's completely unfair.

 

But maybe this is their tactic?? To get people talking about them .. even if it's bad. I truly hope people express their concern and see through their obviously biased reporting .. by letting them fall by the wayside and creating their own demise. If the PD doesn't change its ways, I truly hope this happens because Cleveland is worthy of a better paper that doesn't have its own agenda.

 

I don't even read the online version anymore (at least, as little as possible) because I really believe that's their tactic.

The cleveland.com comments so far focus on "what kind of a name is Ari, anyway?"

I really can't believe how slanted the PD is in its reporting oftentimes. I thought the press wasn't supposed to have an agenda, other than to report the news?!!

 

Ever watch FOX News or MSNBC?

 

The explanation of the different approaches to CBD development put forward by Ari Maron is EXACTLY what the general public needs to hear.  I think everyone wants this project to succeed but the general public has not made it past the TC development stage.  Maron artfully explains why that approach did not work and what is being done differently today.  Good for him.

 

I am not mad at Gilbert though.  Him jumping in the middle of this dispute does not suprise me at all.  He is a confrontational guy and likes to be at the center of things.  I find it interesting how he has been using the words "we" when talking about Cleveland and "they" when referring to Detroit, his hometown.

The cleveland.com comments so far focus on "what kind of a name is Ari, anyway?"

 

Um .. probably Jewish (Hebrew?). What does that have to do with anything?? lol.

^Unfortunately for some of those trolls...

 

Now come on Zarumba and Price!

Apparently, according to someone there, Ari is Greek and short for Aristotle.  That's my point though, it has nothing to do with anything, so why are they stuck on it?  Apparently they seize on the name because they don't know what to do with his reasoning.

Ever watch FOX News or MSNBC?

 

No. I don't. Nor CNN. For that exact same reason.

 

I am not mad at Gilbert though. Him jumping in the middle of this dispute does not suprise me at all. He is a confrontational guy and likes to be at the center of things. I find it interesting how he has been using the words "we" when talking about Cleveland and "they" when referring to Detroit, his hometown.

 

I'm not mad at Gilbert, either. I think his opinion should be stated publicly and valued .. just as much as anyone else's. Why not? What I take major issue with is that the PD clearly favors opinions in favor of the TC site, rather than objectively reporting both sides of the issue and giving both sides equal coverage.

Gilbert is a smart guy and he knows the average Clevelander isn't a fan of his Detroit/Michigan ties.  I'm sure he calls Cleveland "they" when talking to Detroiters.

 

Here is a re-do of the maps, only to scale:

 

Detroit

 

Cleveland

 

If we're talking about Dan Gilbert and his opinions on site selection, you have to talk about the casino he wants to build.  Do I think he is a nefarious guy?  No, I think he's just mistaken.  While for FCE their opposition is clearly about power and propping up their mall at all costs (as long as it's the taxpayer's costs), I think Gilbert is simply letting his own interests cloud his judgment.  Under the new plan his group is going to operate the casino, and it's going to be located near Tower City.  The nearer the convention center is to this casino, the better it will do.

 

Someone needs to ask Gilbert about connectivity to the attractions at North Coast Harbor.  The ones that, you know, already EXIST and aren't dependent on Ohio voters which have soundly defeated every casino issue that's come before them.  The reality is that these areas are just not that far from each other and served by the waterfront line, to boot.

Gilbert is a smart guy and he knows the average Clevelander isn't a fan of his Detroit/Michigan ties.  I'm sure he calls Cleveland "they" when talking to Detroiters.

 

Here is a re-do of the maps, only to scale:

 

Detroit

 

Cleveland

 

If we're talking about Dan Gilbert and his opinions on site selection, you have to talk about the casino he wants to build.  Do I think he is a nefarious guy?  No, I think he's just mistaken.  While for FCE their opposition is clearly about power and propping up their mall at all costs (as long as it's the taxpayer's costs), I think Gilbert is simply letting his own interests cloud his judgment.  Under the new plan his group is going to operate the casino, and it's going to be located near Tower City.  The nearer the convention center is to this casino, the better it will do.

 

Someone needs to ask Gilbert about connectivity to the attractions at North Coast Harbor.  The ones that, you know, already EXIST and aren't dependent on Ohio voters which have soundly defeated every casino issue that's come before them.

 

The God of skinny jeans wearing punks redeems himself.

I am feeling much better after the Litt article.

What does everyone think, was Gilbert a FCE/DCP/PD Hail Mary pass?

If so, is Gilbert Doug Flutie?

 

 

LOVE THE MAPS!

I am feeling much better after the Litt article.

What does everyone think, was Gilbert a FCE/DCP/PD Hail Mary pass?

If so, is Gilbert Doug Flutie?

 

 

LOVE THE MAPS!

 

Dude...You've had one to many hand grenade cocktails!  ;)

 

It's not DCP but GCP.

 

As was yesterday, and the day before that, and the day before that and the week before that and the month before that and the year before that, this is still a media clusterfuck!

 

This if fair IMO.

 

 

http://blog.cleveland.com/metro/2009/04/i.html

 

Cleveland wants traditional conventions to be a priority at a new convention center

Posted by Jim Nichols

April 20, 2009 14:59PM

 

CLEVELAND -- Cleveland's cooperation on a new convention center and medical mart on historic Malls B and C downtown could hinge on guarantees the private firm that would run the complex will make traditional industrial conventions a priority, Mayor Frank Jackson's top aide said Monday.

 

Among those guarantees: Preserving the region's nonprofit travel, tourism and convention-promoting agency.

 

The administration knows just how much leverage it has as the seller of the site that Cuyahoga County and partner Merchandise Mart Properties Inc. envisions for the new $425 million complex, Ken Silliman, Jackson's chief of staff, told City Council...

This if fair IMO.

 

 

http://blog.cleveland.com/metro/2009/04/i.html

 

Cleveland wants traditional conventions to be a priority at a new convention centerPosted by Jim Nichols April 20, 2009 14:59PM

Categories: Business Impact, Cleveland City Hall, Cuyahoga County government, Medical Mart, Real Time News

CLEVELAND -- Cleveland's cooperation on a new convention center and medical mart on historic Malls B and C downtown could hinge on guarantees the private firm that would run the complex will make traditional industrial conventions a priority, Mayor Frank Jackson's top aide said Monday.

 

Among those guarantees: Preserving the region's nonprofit travel, tourism and convention-promoting agency.

 

The administration knows just how much leverage it has as the seller of the site that Cuyahoga County and partner Merchandise Mart Properties Inc. envisions for the new $425 million complex, Ken Silliman, Jackson's chief of staff, told City Council.

 

 

 

I was just posting this.  I agree.  We should have every event downtown!  Period!

 

At the same time we don't need reduncancy.  That group needs to be overhauled, IMHO.

I don't have a problem with their main point.  But it sounds like they intend to integrate our CVB with MMPI's marketing plan, whether MMPI likes it or not.  That I'm not as sure about.  It doesn't seem like a bad idea on the surface.  It does however seem like a way they can manufacture a needed dealbreaker.  Depending on the specific guarantees they're asking for, MMPI could balk. 

 

In my opinion that is not a purchase or sale of land negotiation (it's a separate issue that's secondary to a land deal) and it must be discussed only in public. 

I was kind of dissapointed with the tone of the piece, since it was about city hall, I thought our OUer Henry Gomez wrote it.  It seemed a bit snarky for him. 

 

But, it was Jim Nichols, so actually it is a lot less snarky than usual.

I think what they are trying to ensure is that there are certain groups.  Say for example the Rite Aid marathon, or the Susan G. Komen race for the cure groups... That bring tens of thousands of people into downtown.  Significantly more than your average med mart trade show.  Currently these groups get sweetheart deals to use the convention centers for their expos the days leading up to their races.  I believe they want to ensure that A. the agreements they have on pricing since they bring SO many people downtown stay in place, and MMPI doesn't drive them off by charging regular booking rates... and B. that they give some of these longtime mainstays priority in booking. 

 

If we chase off some of our current business to bring in different business... i don't know their asking price for land... but if this is the sticking point, it is certainly a concession that MMPI should be willing to make.

Yeah, lets spell out what each one will do, and make sure the good things that CVB is maintained, and the convention gathering business is shared efficiently. 

Maybe there can be a nice crossover, with MMPI hiring some of the CVB staff?  Either way, if this is the sticking point, cool!

Silliman told council he won't divulge the private negotiations over the sale of the convention center, or the city's conditions.

 

OMG !! SECRET MEETINGS!! Where is the PeeDee???

don't encourage them

^^^ Point taken.

 

It took me 15 minutes to find Litt's article. Buried again. Damned fish wrap PeeDee. We need a newspaper in this town! I left the studio @ 2 for a early dinner engagement and they have it buried by 7. Disgusting.

^^^ Point taken.

 

It took me 15 minutes to find Litt's article. Buried again. Damned fish wrap PeeDee. We need a newspaper in this town! I left the studio @ 2 for a early dinner engagement and they have it buried by 7. Disgusting.

 

While I don't like the PD's reporting on CC/MM, this situation happens everyday on cleveland.com. Any article that is posted early in the day is buried on the site by the end of the day. It is normal. The same can be said for many of their pro-TC site articles.

look for articles in the "most commented on" section

Not a lot of the usual FCE comments about this article.  It wasn't nearly as slanted as most PD articles have been lately.

 

Jockeying intensifies for location of medical mart and convention center in downtown Cleveland

Posted by cpinckar April 21, 2009 06:00AM

Scott Shaw / The Plain Dealer

 

Jeffrey P. Jacobs, son of Cleveland developer Richard Jacobs, took out a full-page ad in The Plain Dealer supporting the mall location in downtown Cleveland as the site for the new medical mart and convention center.

 

To reach this Plain Dealer reporter: [email protected], 216-999-4675

 

http://blog.cleveland.com/metro/2009/04/jockeying_intensifies_for_loca.html

 

 

 

The biggest question is: why is the location still a story? Who's in charge of this project? Why haven't they put their fist down and said "this is the way it's going to be"?

 

If I'm a developer/investor/employer from another city and watching all of this, I'm going to be very reluctant to devote any money or time to investing in Cleveland or Cuyahoga County. I believe that, even if this project is suddenly and magically resolved today and everyone is all handshakes and smiles, that too much has already happened to cause long-term damage this city and county.

 

Our local "leaders" in politics and the corporate community have turned lemonade back into lemons by wrecking what could have been a nice asset for the region (it's not a silver bullet -- there's no such thing). Even if it gets built, it will be a monument/reminder to the horrific struggle it took to get it built.