Typical Scene crap, old editors or new

I'm sorry, but why is Mr. Kotz a credible source worthy of quoting? And, to me, one media person interviewing another reporter is journalistic incest. What's the credible source of the information here? Or do journalists think so highly of themselves as experts on everything that they no longer need to interview people outside of the media?

 

Tell Mr. Kotz to go string himself up with the strings from a steel guitar.

I didn't realize that Cleveland was so flush with cash.

 

I think he was referring to the fact that our Med Mart is going to be publicly funded.  NYC's is seeking private investment and I believe the same for Nashville's.

 

I think this is going to end up just like the Rock Hall.  Lot's of competition from other Cities, but in the end Cleveland will win out and get it done.... just maybe not on the scale (both size and quality) it should be.

HJG blew it bigtime with that post.

 

I'm not going to go quite so far...He merely just highlighted that the Nashville "idea" is getting some attention in TradeshowWeek, a reputable source, as well as in a Nashville alt-weekly by a former-Clevelander.  Kotz's quote is reallllyyy amusing (glad to see he's matured journalistically and rhetorically since leavine the CleveScene...not!) but still, this is HJG's little blog section and that's what you do on blogs, post links to things that might otherwise go unnoticed.  I don't think HJG took any sort of unfair, negative editorial tone himself.

I too am offended by the "incompetent" line as written, although if the statement had been better targeted I would pretty much agree with it.  Incompetence has gotten us to this point in this project.  Had we started digging sooner, there is a good chance that no southern competitor would have emerged.  Now that they have, it's something we need to take very seriously.  Nashville's potential investors might be scared off if we can show a quick burst of progress.  We aren't scaring anyone right now.

Nashville Has Med Mart Dreams Too

By Michael Hart -- Tradeshow Week,06/01/2009

 

On the very day officials at Positively Cleveland and Merchandise Mart Properties Inc. thought they could breathe a sigh of relief, they had something else to worry about. On May 18, after four years of preparation, the Cleveland City Council gave its final approval for the Cleveland Medical Mart, which will include a 300,000 square foot convention center.

 

However, just hours before the council action came word that Dallas-based Market Center Management had its own plans for a medical mart, a 1.5 million square foot facility that would include meeting space for health care events, in Nashville, Tenn.

 

More at http://www.tradeshowweek.com/index.asp?layout=talkbackCommentsFull&talk_back_header_id=6602655&articleid=CA6661244#171002TALKBACK

Wow that comment makes me feel better.  As he indicates, hopefully others in the industry realize that Cleveland is the place for this.....  and as others on here have said, Nashville is just blowing smoke! 

As Tom Field used to say," Coming to you from Cleveland, the best location in the nation."

 

Sounds a damn site better than Cleveland's a Plum.

HJG blew it bigtime with that post.

 

I'm not going to go quite so far...He merely just highlighted that the Nashville "idea" is getting some attention in TradeshowWeek, a reputable source, as well as in a Nashville alt-weekly by a former-Clevelander.  Kotz's quote is reallllyyy amusing (glad to see he's matured journalistically and rhetorically since leavine the CleveScene...not!) but still, this is HJG's little blog section and that's what you do on blogs, post links to things that might otherwise go unnoticed.  I don't think HJG took any sort of unfair, negative editorial tone himself.

 

Thank you. I'm just trying to be an honest broker. Perhaps I should have mentioned this in my original blog post, but one reason I posted those (the TradeshowWeek piece and the Kotz item) is that both were making the e-mail forward rounds among City Hall sources. I thought it was worth putting both pieces out there for my blog audience.

 

Not sure how I blew it. Just because you didn't agree with the viewpoint of the second article I linked to? I took no personal stance. I am trying to make the Inside Cleveland City Hall blog a place where people can go to get a wide range of information on city politics, policy and development. Sometimes that will include links to other people's writing. But posting and linking to items that generate a constructive conversation is one of my goals.

 

I'm glad to see some of that here on UO.

 

KJP - I think you misunderstood the post. I didn't interview Kotz. You can't see from the way it is formatted, but it's a block quote from his Nashville Scene piece, which I linked to. Later in that same post I linked to YOUR article about the Ward 14 race, giving you credit for the story and all. Please see my above explanations for why I sometimes link to other writers. It's not incest. It's giving people the chance to see other perspectives, points of view and reporting on a subject. My goal is to be an honest broker.

 

I'd encourage anyone who didn't click through the link to do so to see how the post is formatted.

 

EDIT: Going through this thread again, it occurs to me that some of you might be confused about which comments I wrote and which comments were block-quoted from other works I linked to. Let me try to clarify below. The italicized portions are block-quoted excerpts from other stories I linked to:

 

MY WRITING: TradeshowWeek, in a piece titled "Nashville Has Med Mart Dreams, Too," writes:

 

QUOTE FROM TRADESHOW WEEK ARTICLE: On the very day officials at Positively Cleveland and Merchandise Mart Properties Inc. thought they could breathe a sigh of relief, they had something else to worry about. On May 18, after four years of preparation, the Cleveland City Council gave its final approval for the Cleveland Medical Mart, which will include a 300,000 square foot convention center.

 

However, just hours before the council action came word that Dallas-based Market Center Management had its own plans for a medical mart, a 1.5 million square foot facility that would include meeting space for health care events, in Nashville, Tenn.

 

What's more, Market Center Management President and CEO Bill Winsor threw down the gauntlet, stating, "There is only room for one of these medical marts, and it's going to be ours."

 

MY WRITING: The TradeshowWeek article runs down some of the advantages Winsor boasts of in Nashville but notes that Cleveland is "home to the Cleveland Clinic, University Hospitals of Cleveland, Case Western Reserve University and their affiliated research facilities."

 

Former Cleveland Scene editor Pete Kotz, now with Nashville Scene, has his own theories of why the Music City plan might edge out Cleveland:

 

QUOTE FROM PETE KOTZ ARTICLE: We're way too broke to offer the welfare Cleveland is throwing around. But it's far easier and cheaper to get something done here.

 

New York is planning a 60-story mart, but it must deal with the labor, land, and construction hassles that make anything in New York a Biblical quest.

 

And Cleveland, arguably the most incompetent city in the country (with apologies to Detroit), has taken four years just to reach a decision. A recent FBI corruption raid on county government was so massive it had to call in extra agents from Pittsburgh. And since public theft is so widespread there, any large construction project will naturally go through the traditional cycle of rigged bids, kickbacks, cost overruns, grand jury indictments, and the inevitable FBI raids. Meaning Cleveland's mart may not be online until 2024.

 

All of which may leave Nashville sitting pretty by default. Either way, gentlemen, start your engines. END QUOTE FROM KOTZ ARTICLE

Thanks for the explanation, Henry. I am glad you didn't interview other reporters. I hate when journalists do that (though it's almost entirely television news "journalists" who do it).

HJG you didn't blow it at all.  That was a good piece.  I think most people here are mad at Kotz, not you.  I found it interesting that the TN people would say something like "there can be only one" if they're that far behind us in getting underway.  They're pushing a premise that doesn't, on the surface, seem to be in their favor at all.  Or is it?  I hope they're full of crap, but their posturing gives me pause. 

 

Public-private projects like ours have many advantages, like the aforementioned easy capital, but operational speed is major drawback.  It can be done much quicker than this though.  This is ridiculous.  We need pressure and we need urgency.  We need to leverage the momentary advantage our financing gave us, because once we're beyond the point of no return it will be harder for Nashville to get their private money.  Theirs would be a clear #2 if ours was already a certainty.  They need to be first, and so do we.  My concern is that a private sector project could easily blow past us as soon as they got their financing together.  And "site selection" is not typically the drawn-out maelstrom it was here.  I wish we'd get digging.

 

New York is planning a 60-story mart, but it must deal with the labor, land, and construction hassles that make anything in New York a Biblical quest.

 

 

not exactly.

 

the ny developer extell is no fly by night. they are a huge player in development in that city. they already own the land, have the building plans ready to go and have cleared and prepped the site, which is right next to the javits convention center.

 

what they don't have is the actual funding to build. it would be halfway up by now if they did.

 

here's what green & extell had to say about that situation as of 3/09:

 

"Financing

 

Up to 2010, the project will be privately financed by Israel Green and the Extell Development Corporation. However, to commence construction, Michael Resnick explained that bank finance will be needed; the collateral for this will be multi-year financial commitments by participating companies. There are a lot of factors, such as private equity interest, and the liquidity of the financial markets.' However, he said, Extell and the developers have a good deal of experience in securing capital.

 

The financial crisis, said John Strong, has made companies 'a bit more cautious in terms of their expenditures'. However, he has found enough interest in the building to suggest they are planning ahead - the centre will open in five years."

 

 

yeah, just a bit more cautious... :roll: so developer hype aside, outside of politics cleveland is still far ahead of ny and nashville on this financially and in every other way, but the clock is always ticking. when someone finally puts a shovel in the ground its all over.

 

 

 

Excellent unbiased article in this months edition of Inside Business on the medical mart / convention center.  They don't appear to have the June addition available online yet... if you recieve the magazine (and I don't know why you wouldn't subscriptions are free, http://www.ibmag.com), check it out.

I've heard the County is exploring moving their offices in a serious way, but the numbers are way up there for a long term lease. (FCE gets their bone?)

Oh .. you mean .. THIS? :)

 

Affairs of the Mart

The Medical Mart and convention center, Cleveland's biggest downtown project in a decade, starts construction next year. But exactly what the risky, innovative venture linking health care and hospitality will look like remains uncertain. Will the large medical manufacturers take showroom space and attract enough medical conventions to make it work? And if it doesn't, could the city's aggressive return to the competition for conventions save the day?

by Erick Trickey 

 

Next summer, a giant hole will be excavated in the downtown Mall along Lakeside and St. Clair avenues. Cleveland’s musty, underground 1932 convention center will be dismantled and a new one built in its place with towering ceilings and fewer columns. Natural light will shine through a giant window overlooking Lake Erie and North Coast Harbor.

 

More at Inside Business http://ibmag.com/ME2/dirmod.asp?sid=&nm=New+Articles&type=Publishing&mod=Publications%3A%3AArticle&mid=7B30C2FA072245DE9AD5D82735C7041A&tier=4&id=7911B0750C214EA4BA9C1472248C8027

Great article, one of the most well rounded I've seen in awhile

"That’s why we didn’t just do a Pittsburgh"  lol

 

....very balanced article. I'm becoming more confident this project will be a success for the city

 

 

 

 

Nice piece by David Beach at GreenCityBlueLake on design guidelines to activate and green the Convention Center

http://www.gcbl.org/planning/convention-center

 

Also, is there any talk of integrating the current Amtrak station into the renovated convention center?  I believe this idea was part of the Burnham mall plan.

Also, is there any talk of integrating the current Amtrak station into the renovated convention center?  I believe this idea was part of the Burnham mall plan.

 

No talk involving the current Amtrak station that I'm aware of. The Amtrak station would be expanded to handle 3-C Corridor trains, but would not involve a direct pedestrian connection to the south. There has been talk of restarting the planning for the North Coast Transportation Center but, again, nothing serious that I'm aware of.

Also, is there any talk of integrating the current Amtrak station into the renovated convention center? I believe this idea was part of the Burnham mall plan.

 

No talk involving the current Amtrak station that I'm aware of. The Amtrak station would be expanded to handle 3-C Corridor trains, but would not involve a direct pedestrian connection to the south. There has been talk of restarting the planning for the North Coast Transportation Center but, again, nothing serious that I'm aware of.

 

Hard to believe with all the publicity both MMPI on the Mall and the Amtrak 3-C corridor has been getting.  For once in this town, I wish our leaders could plan so one hand knows what the other is doing... The nice-looking, though (really) unnecessary Stokes Fed. Courthouse tower blocking passenger train traffic into the station where it belongs: Tower City, is one example... And seemingly RTA's rush to build a separate W.150 Rapid station w/o seemingly any coordination w/ the just-announced plan to build an Amtrak 3-C station there, is another.

Hard to believe with all the publicity both MMPI on the Mall and the Amtrak 3-C corridor has been getting.

 

Quite.  This is a Hello McFly sort of connection to make.  Ten thousand monkeys with typewriters would have a new train station there before lunch.  After all that firestorm about connec... tivity, the RTA and Amtrak lines running right in front of the mall have been completely ignored.  We'll be lucky if we get a front door on the place so we can flag down trains by hand.  If you don't believe me, go down to the mall, look south, and observe Mr. Burnham's contempt for doors.  These things do happen.  Don't you wish someone had been there to poke him on the shoulder and remind him to put doors facing the mall?  Time to start poking some shoulders.     

Isn't there a pair of pedestrian bridges about 100m to the west of the Amtrak station?  GoogleEarth shows them there, but I haven't been to that part of downtown myself in years.  The hilarious thing being that the Amtrak station appears to lack a walkway to the sidewalk that's less than 20m from the building.

http://www.riderta.com/pdf/transit2025/Transit_2025_Appendix_G.pdf

 

just a bump to the proposed NCTC plans with the discussion of expanding train service. This was estimated at $50M-$75M in 1998 dollars what would the price tag be now? $250M? Do

es anybody know what the latest price tag would be?

Isn't there a pair of pedestrian bridges about 100m to the west of the Amtrak station? GoogleEarth shows them there, but I haven't been to that part of downtown myself in years. The hilarious thing being that the Amtrak station appears to lack a walkway to the sidewalk that's less than 20m from the building.

 

The pedestrian bridges were built for the old Municipal Stadium and were restored for the new Browns stadium. When the Amtrak station was built in 1978, it was built purely for car/taxi access.

 

http://www.riderta.com/pdf/transit2025/Transit_2025_Appendix_G.pdf

 

just a bump to the proposed NCTC plans with the discussion of expanding train service. This was estimated at $50M-$75M in 1998 dollars what would the price tag be now? $250M? Do

es anybody know what the latest price tag would be?

 

Let's start with the top-end estimate -- $75 million in 1998 dollars is $98 million in 2009 dollars. When using conceptual costs, it's smart to include a 30 percent contingency. So add $29 million, making the total estimate $127 million.

What's the next step in the convention center process? Wasn't City Council supposed to vote on the sale in May, or did I miss something?

they did vote, and as expected, it passed. But i second your question, what's the next step?

^ Thanks. It just feels like there hasn't been much said in almost a month.

I believe (gathered solely from reading this thread, so correct me if wrong) the next steps are:

 

1) Secure a site for the medical mart.  MMPI (I think) would prefer that it go on the site of three privately held properies on the northeast corner of St. Clair and Ontario.  If those owners get greedy and hold out for too much money, the County will have to abandon its offices and that building would be demoed to make way for a new MM on the southeast corner of Ontario and Lakeside.

 

2) Start work on Public Hall so that showrooms and exhibit space can be set up there, ensuring that we are the first MM to hit the market.

 

3) Sign up tenants for permanent showroom space in the MM.

 

4) Start construction / complete renovation of the main exhibit hall under Malls B and C.

 

All of these steps are about ready to get going as none of them really depend on another happening first.

add into that designs have to be submitted soon.  IIRC, MMPI has to submit designs to CC for approval

The pedestrian bridges were built for the old Municipal Stadium and were restored for the new Browns stadium. When the Amtrak station was built in 1978, it was built purely for car/taxi access.

aking the total estimate $127 million.

 

The Amtrak station is in about as inconvenient a location as possible for pedestrain access.  At least the Waterfront Line will stop if you flag them down, but this is really only useful for the Lakeshore Limited westbound train, and even then you have to sit an hour before the first Waterfront train (just did it this morning).

http://www.crainscleveland.com/article/20090615/SUB1/306159989[/url]

 

Med mart plan lacks lodging element

Some think adjoining hotel should be part of agenda

 

 

By STAN BULLARD

 

4:30 am, June 15, 2009

 

A big piece is missing from the plan to make a success of the new convention center and medical mart in downtown Cleveland, according to some experts: an attached convention center hotel of as many as 800 rooms with a development cost of about $160 million.

 

However, Cuyahoga County officials are leaving that project to a private developer, if not for now, for after the $425 million mart and convention center opens in 2012 and establishes itself in the meeting marketplace. It's an approach that suits most local hoteliers because of the dire effect the recession has had on the hotel market.

 

 

More from Crains:

 

quote

 

Doug Price, co-owner of Willoughby-based K&D Group, which owns the Embassy Suites at Reserve Square downtown, said a convention center hotel belongs on the back burner.

 

“Hotels that are here have paid the price to be in the market,” he said.

 

 

Paid the price Doug?

 

Interesting choice of words there....

 

 

 

Doug Price, co-owner of Willoughby-based K&D Group, which owns the Embassy Suites at Reserve Square downtown, said a convention center hotel belongs on the back burner.

 

Hotels that are here have paid the price to be in the market, he said.

 

 

Paid the price Doug?

 

Interesting choice of words there....

 

That's hilarious.  I was about to say he meant something else, but I wouldn't be surprised if he and others like him honestly thought bribery was legal here under home rule.

If we built an 800 room hotel for the convention center it damn well better be sitting atop our glorious new passenger rail station.  :-D

Studies have shown that a big-time hotel will attract more and bigger conventions and attractions which, in turn, will help all the hoteliers and not just the mega-hotel itself.  Yet in true Cleveland fashion, developers, who can't see past yesterday, would rather than protect their turf and fight the mega hotel we desperately need (and that all cities we like to compare ourselves to already have) and stick with a bunch of small-sized hotels scattered around downtown... This MMPI convention center expansion should have been a golden opportunity for us to finally develop a 1st class, major, true convention-sized hotel... but in the end, we're still going to be shunned by big events/conventions because of a lack of hotel rooms...

 

This backwards thinking is just one more reason why the City will remain perpetually in rear-view-mirror/catching up mode compared to other major cities.

  :whip: :whip:  :shoot: :shoot: 

There's already 800 hotel rooms adjacent to the property today, is our 300k square foot convention center in need of 1600?  This isn't downtown this is walk across the street and you're on the property.  The cities we compare ourselves to my knowledge all have 1 million+ square feet facilities.

 

Edit: These are actual questions I have not intending to be argumentative.  I notice now Indiannapolis is being a bit weird about how they calculate the space provided by Lucas Oil Stadium from place to place on their site.

Cleveland has a compact downtown area so the idea of hotels being "close" to the Conv Ctr.  really is a non-issue.  Also, most cities Cleveland's size or larger have at least one, maybe more hotels of 600 or more rooms; many with 800 or more rooms.  Cleveland's largest hotel is the Renaissance on Public Square at around 490 rooms -- and its a 90 year-old building!  Also, large conventions prefer cities/convention centers with a large mega-size hotel attached, not just "nearby" -- esp in a city with killer winters like Cleveland ... again, some folks don't want to recognize that Cleveland winters make a couple blocks seem like 10.  And believe me, conventions look at things like that...

 

... Add to the fact that Cleveland still falls way below the big boys in terms of downtown hotel rooms, so for so many developers to actually talk like their going to fight the large new hotel we desperately need, is unbelievable...

 

So I'm trying to really see what the big fuss over this new MMPI convention center is all about -- aside from the obvious fact of the association of MMPI itself... But aside from that: it's still going to be an undersized conv. ctr with little room for expansion; it won't bring us any new hotel... hell, it's not even going to encourage an attached new Amtrak/commuter/RTA station... I'm sorry, our simply remodeling the old center that's supposedly "near" 800 rooms won't really excite the convention industry.

I think the whole point is that these hotels are already attached, and that this attachment will be enhanced as part of the project.  I agree though that we need a more impressive one.  The arrangement will seem incomplete without it.  I like that we have several hotels in old buildings, but we do need one new flagship.  And that Crown Plaza is not an attractive building at all.  We should probably just keep the tunnel, take that down, and build something more fitting there.  We've knocked down more impressive structures than that in the last month alone.  And I don't want to build our new flagship hotel next to the jail, where they abruptly release people with no "bus fare."  Absolutely not.  That would be one of those self-defeating decisions again.

 

I've been talking this over with people in health care purchasing, and most have doubts about the medical mart angle.  For example, one person in nursing homes said that for their purchasing, there's already a full service outlet in Milwaukee run by a distributor.  It seems to work like we're thinking this will.  It's a showroom that people fly in to look at.  On the good side, we'll have a more complete package to offer visitors.  I still strongly agree that our project should be tied in with a new train station, as well as a move for the county offices.  That building makes everything around it uglier.  If we're going to dig up the whole mall anyway, let's be done with it.  All of these are immediate needs.  I can't think of a better stimulus package for downtown.   

That whole area might actually be the safest part of downtown.

 

I agree. That's also CPD headquarters. There's no place in the city where there's a greater  police presence 24/7.

I may be overreacting about building a major hotel next to the jail. I'm sure other cities do that and it works well. My concern there is not just the "bus fare" but the ugliness of the structure and the fact that it can't ever contribute to street life. I'd sooner put the hotel over by the public auditorium, and in an area that has a chance of being redeveloped a little around said hotel. The western face of the mall is all government. The site of the county building is more appropriate for law offices than a hotel.

 

You're not overreacting. I had the same concern. The Fortress of Solitude / Justice Center is a great place to defend our position from the advancing barbarian hordes, when that day comes. But it's not the most ideal building to look at directly across from my hotel window, particularly after 5pm when the employees have left and the street life is minimal.

 

I think we're ok with hotels for the time being. The proximity of two hotels seems like it would be sufficient to meet the demands of the initial shows that MMPI is looking to bring in using the current facilities (Public Hall). I'm not against building a new one. But I like the county's thought that it should be a private developer. As the new and improved med mart / convention center is constructed and completed, I'm fairly optimistic that the economy will significantly better than it is now, and private developers will be able to obtain financing and justify the project from a ROI. (hopefully).

I don't think perp walks are what we want big $ guests seeing.

 

Stop it. This is silly. New inmates and those charged with crimes are brought to the jail and court by vehicles who enter an underground driveway from West 3rd to a secure area below street level.

 

Most of those who come and go from the Ontario Street entrance are police officers, attorneys and those paying traffic fines or getting paperwork for impounded property. And I was one of those who entered and exited that side of the building every week for four years.

 

Can we move on to meaningful discussions please?

Mods, can we clean up this thread?

We sure can, and I think a certain person who has been warned about their problematic off-topic posting should think before he posts. Failure to do so will result in a six month suspension. Don't want to be called out like this? Adjust your behavior - it's that simple.

 

And anyone who continues to take this thread off topic (including complaints about the thread being pruned) gets a week off.

 

"So I'm trying to really see what the big fuss over this new MMPI convention center is all about"

 

Two loading docks versus upward of 20 or more, a much more display-friendly space versus the catacomb-like and enormous column-ridden exhibit space... that's a start.

I'm going to the Midtown Inc annual banquet tomorrow, where the keynote speaker will be Mr. Falanga of MMPI.  I may or may not get to ask questions.  Is there anything anyone would like me to ask him?

So... Mark Falanga was asked whether there was any chance of a new train station becoming part of the project.  Sounds like no.  His take is that conventioners are not partial to using rail, and he reiterated that the plan for the north side of the CC is a glass wall for viewing the lake and museums.  He did mention that there is an existing bridge to the Amtrak station, and said that a train station there certainly wouldn't be a bad thing, but it's not any kind of a priority for them.

 

Despite that difference of opinion, I'm quite sold on Mr. Falanga.  He knows what his plan is and he's seen it work before.  I think he and MMPI will make this a successful project.  He also reiterated MMPI's preference for a Midtown location, but stated that, as far as he knows, there are no significant barriers to moving forward with the current plan, although negotiations with the private landowners continue.  Brian Tucker, the publisher of Crain's, was the moderator and hopefully they will have a writeup on the whole presentation soon. 

Too Mark Falanga doesn't know what's going on with regards to rail funding and planning activities...

They only gave us index cards to write the questions on... no room to explain, or I would have.  I did make a point of referring to the 3-C project by name.

http://blog.cleveland.com/metro/2009/06/mmpi_official_says_hurdles_mos.html

 

MMPI official Mark Falanga says hurdles mostly cleared to get the medical mart off the ground in Cleveland

Posted by Jim Nichols/Plain Dealer Reporter

June 18, 2009 13:48PM

 

CLEVELAND, Ohio — Cleveland's medical mart/convention center project finally seems to be over all its hurdles, said Mark Falanga, an official with MMPI, the former Merchandise Mart Properties Inc.

Falanga, speaking at the annual meeting of Midtown Cleveland Inc., said his company is close to completing land acquisition to put up the facility at the site of the Cleveland Convention Center. MMPI, of Chicago, is partnering with the Cuyahoga County commissioners in the project.

 

 

Falanga, a senior vice president, said the process MMPI has had to go through here was more complicated than anything the company has been involved with before, and it took company officials by surprise...

Falanga also highlighted the need for speed, as a way to defeat said competition.

At this point I think the next main step is architectural work.  Obviously there is a lot that can be done pre land acquistion.  They can tweak plans for the western above ground portion of the project once they know exactly what property they are doing.  It would seem to me that it will still be some time before work can be done on the exhibit hall under the mall, but none of that should impact plans for public hall.  So hopefully that can get approved soon and they can begin work on the reconfiguration of that space.  Once that happens I think the "competition" will throw in the towel.