I have been following this thread since the start and just reread it, but I am lost.  Where are we exactly on this project.  What is left to do? 

Since the MM is above ground, I can't see why not.

 

IIRC, that was one of the knocks of the TC site, that it couldn't be easily expanded.

 

Let's get it built first, then worry about expansion :)

 

I'm not sure I understand how you would expand it based on it being above ground unless preparations are made now. When they released the first rendering I was underwhelmed with the scale of this project. 125,000 sq ft is roughly 70,000 square ft smaller then the average Walmart, and a $30,000,000 investment on the part of MMPI (owned by one of the largest developers in the country) seems to lack commitment when compared to the public investment or what others are planning. The World Product Center will feature over 700,000 sq ft of permanent showroom space within a building that will total over 1 million sq ft. This will put us at a disadvantage if we truly want this to be the beginning of turning Cleveland into the world hub for this industry, which I thought was one of the stated goals of this endeavor. Before anyone brings up the fact that WPC lacks financing; unless you believe the current recession will last indefinitely or lead to an apocalyptic depression, the WPC will eventually get financing. If our little "mart" has some early success that's all the more reason for the banks to see less risk in the New York project. Being first to market will matter very little if we cannot expand to compete in the future. IMO this project would benefit from building the appropriate foundation that would allow for upward expansion in the futere much like 515 Euclid Ave. If we have the ability to add 300-400 thousand sq ft we could prevent WPC or the Nashville project from ever happening. 

125,000 square feet would be 25% larger than the average Wal Mart (according to the Wal Mart annual report).  The medical mart will also have a dedicated convention center (300,000 sq. feet) that the WPC would lack.  And something about a subway tunnel....

125,000 square feet would be 25% larger than the average Wal Mart (according to the Wal Mart annual report).  The medical mart will also have a dedicated convention center (300,000 sq. feet) that the WPC would lack.  And something about a subway tunnel....

 

Sorry for the confusion, I was comparing to the "Supercenters". For the sake of accuracy; their website says the avg supercenter is 187K sq ft and the avg store is 107K sq ft. The point is simply that this really isn't that big and less then 1/6 of what the competition is proposing. From my understanding our convention center will still host other events and I don't believe it is "dedicated"; can anyone confirm this? That being said don't forget the WPC will be directly across from the Javits Convention Center which is currently 675,000 sq ft and undergoing an expansion of 50K which should be completed next year.

125,000 square feet would be 25% larger than the average Wal Mart (according to the Wal Mart annual report).  The medical mart will also have a dedicated convention center (300,000 sq. feet) that the WPC would lack.  And something about a subway tunnel....

 

Sorry for the confusion, I was comparing to the "Supercenters". For the sake of accuracy; their website says the avg supercenter is 187K sq ft and the avg store is 107K sq ft. The point is simply that this really isn't that big and less then 1/6 of what the competition is proposing. From my understanding our convention center will still host other events and I don't believe it is "dedicated"; can anyone confirm this? That being said don't forget the WPC, if built, will be directly across from the Javits Convention Center which is currently 675,000 sq ft and undergoing an expansion of 50K which should be completed next year.

I guess "dedicated" convention center was too strong.  However, the same people managing our medical mart will also be managing the convention center and I would have to think that's an advantage.  I would also think that finding space to expand in Cleveland won't be too much of a problem, unfortunately.  And being first to market always matters.

^ Finding contiguous space would be a problem and that would be a distinct disadvantage. Agreed; first to market does matter but that advantage doesn't always last if a superior product is introduced.

 

Hts I concede there is a question of whether or not WPC will get built. I'm curious if you and the others here believe it will or won't get built? As I said before... "unless you believe the current recession will last indefinitely or lead to an apocalyptic depression, the WPC will eventually get financing. If our little "mart" has some early success that's all the more reason for the banks to see less risk in the New York project." This again is why I believe planning now for future expansion is prudent and certainly worth discussing.

Is the hypotetical mart, that has no financing, dedicated to medical devices? 

Why do you feel it is small.  Are you an "expert"?

MMPI are experts.  Bigger doesn't always mean better.

Hts I concede there is a question of whether or not WPC will get built. I'm curious if you and the others here believe it will or won't get built?

 

I don't think it will be built.

I won't go into all of the reasons why, but I don't think it will be built either.

here's the main gist of what the wpc developers say about the wpc:

 

"Excavation on the World Product Centre site is scheduled for November, with construction finishing in 2013. WPC will license about one-third of the pavilion space and use the proceeds as collateral on a construction loan. “Marketing and development is–and will continue to be–financed by private equity,” says Michael Resnick, WPC’s executive vice president. “We are confident that we will have the financing in place to obtain a construction loan."

 

http://blogs.wsj.com/developments/2009/07/01/planned-manhattan-skyscraper-to-help-fix-healthcare/

 

^ that was from july. i havent heard anything new, but it will be simple enough to keep an eye out for news and to see if there is any action on that site around november. however, even if there was quite a lot of site prep work, i still wouldnt bank on it being built anytime soon.

 

ps -- no news on the nyc blogworld far as i see and nothing new on the wpc website since july either...

http://www.worldproductcentre.com/home.html

 

who knows? but on the surface the wpc plan looks as cash strapped as ever. not sure nashville is even that far along. the clev just needs to push this thing through.

 

 

 

 

 

Is the hypotetical mart, that has no financing, dedicated to medical devices? 

Why do you feel it is small.  Are you an "expert"?

MMPI are experts.  Bigger doesn't always mean better.

 

exactly.

 

By the way, last i checked the thing that is really supposed to seperate our Medical Mart from any potential other marts (besides that little thing known as funding), is the collaborative involvment of the Cleveland Clinic and University Hospitals... you know... those tiny little places about 4 miles away that are two of the best medical institutions in the world... neither of which are located in New York or Nashville.

Is the hypotetical mart, that has no financing, dedicated to medical devices?

Why do you feel it is small. Are you an "expert"?

MMPI are experts. Bigger doesn't always mean better.

 

exactly.

 

By the way, last i checked the thing that is really supposed to seperate our Medical Mart from any potential other marts (besides that little thing known as funding), is the collaborative involvment of the Cleveland Clinic and University Hospitals... you know... those tiny little places about 4 miles away that are two of the best medical institutions in the world... neither of which are located in New York or Nashville.

 

And all of this combined with the fact that MM will be first to market is what will effectively kill the New York and Nashville projects in the long run.  If the participants do it right, any other project will be redundant no matter where it is located.  There is NO compelling reason to locate the MM in any other city.  RTP in the Raleigh/Durham, NC area is a good precedent. 

^We still have to be first to market though -- not just with the CC and the renovated Public Auditorium, but with the actual MM.  I worry that if they can't secure the building at Saint Clair and Ontario, and instead have to move to the site of the County HQ, it could delay the opening of the MM building itself.  The county HQ wouldn't move until 2011 (per the RFP that they sent out), which would seem to push a MM opening until 2012 at the earliest.

And all of this combined with the fact that MM will be first to market is what will effectively kill the New York and Nashville projects in the long run. If the participants do it right, any other project will be redundant no matter where it is located. There is NO compelling reason to locate the MM in any other city. RTP in the Raleigh/Durham, NC area is a good precedent.

Agreed.  If the Cleveland project truly hits the market first, medical exhibitors will go there.  Then even if NY or Nashville tries to launch a mart, what will the draw be?  The whole point is that there will be multiple medical exhibitors in one space.  Trying to lure in a tenant to a brand new location with no other tenants when there's already a mart in Cleveland will be tough.

 

So it doesn't matter how big the other facilities are.  Because the conversation with the New York facility will go something like this:

 

"Please sign this one year lease with the World Product Center."

"But we already signed a lease in Cleveland."

"But our facility will be ten times as big!"

"So how many other medical exhibitors have signed up so far?"

"None."

"..."

"But our lease as three times as expensive per square foot!  And we have the Mets!"

Is the hypotetical mart, that has no financing, dedicated to medical devices? 

Why do you feel it is small.  Are you an "expert"?

MMPI are experts.  Bigger doesn't always mean better.

 

Is it dedicated to medical devices? It appears there is more to it then that. From their website:"Segments include medical devices, health technology, life sciences, business services, furnishings, and diagnostics." Is that very different from what we will be offering?

 

No I am not an expert but I suspect the developer (Extell) and their marketing partner (Greater New York Hospital Association) have done enough due diligence to be considered experts; and they seem to think this concept will be far more successful and warrants a much larger scale. I don't know which of the two projects has it right but I think it would make sense for ours to plan for success and therefore expansion.

 

MD88  I agree we have many advantages if not all. I'm not sure however that first to market will effectively kill the other projects. This is where we could be victims of our own success as WPC would surely point to that as proof the concept is viable, profitable and worth financing. The only compelling reason at that point to locate to WPC would be our inability to accommodate demand for more space. Anyway thanks for the discussion. I'm just of the opinion that MMPI and of course Cleveland would be better served if they plan now for expansion. That I believe could effectively kill all other projects. 

 

BTW, MD88 pardon my ignorance but what exactly is RTP in Raleigh/Durham?

^Research Triangle Park

^Research Triangle Park

 

Thanks!

Is the hypotetical mart, that has no financing, dedicated to medical devices? 

Why do you feel it is small.  Are you an "expert"?

MMPI are experts.  Bigger doesn't always mean better.

 

Is it dedicated to medical devices? It appears there is more to it then that. From their website:"Segments include medical devices, health technology, life sciences, business services, furnishings, and diagnostics." Is that very different from what we will be offering?

 

No I am not an expert but I suspect the developer (Extell) and their marketing partner (Greater New York Hospital Association) have done enough due diligence to be considered experts; and they seem to think this concept will be far more successful and warrants a much larger scale. I don't know which of the two projects has it right but I think it would make sense for ours to plan for success and therefore expansion.

 

MD88  I agree we have many advantages if not all. I'm not sure however that first to market will effectively kill the other projects. This is where we could be victims of our own success as WPC would surely point to that as proof the concept is viable, profitable and worth financing. The only compelling reason at that point to locate to WPC would be our inability to accommodate demand for more space. Anyway thanks for the discussion. I'm just of the opinion that MMPI and of course Cleveland would be better served if they plan now for expansion. That I believe could effectively kill all other projects.  

 

BTW, MD88 pardon my ignorance but what exactly is RTP in Raleigh/Durham?

 

I'm sorry, I need to stop using abbreviations.  Thanks for the translation Htsguy.  I'm sure that MMPI has taken into account the possibility of expansion.  Don't forget, they operate other exhibition facilities for different products and probably have a good idea as to the size of the facility.  As has been pointed out, it will also be atatched to a state-of-the art convernion center AND a renovated public auditorium.  Yes, they may build a MM in NYC on a purely speculative basis but once Clevelands is up and running the need evaporates.  In fact, once construction starts in Cleveland and once MMPI announces tenenants and shows, I wouldn't be a bit surprised if the NYC pitch quietly evaporates.  Nashville,,, lol... 'nuff said.

Public Auditorium, Music Hall and the Little Theaters are absolute TREASURES.  Politics aside, the mall site was #1 on my list because these gems get included in the 21st century facility--which will make it that much more marketable to conventions coming in.

" Yes, they may build a MM in NYC on a purely speculative basis but once Clevelands is up and running the need evaporates.  In fact, once construction starts in Cleveland and once MMPI announces tenenants and shows, I wouldn't be a bit surprised if the NYC pitch quietly evaporates.  Nashville,,, lol... 'nuff said"--- MD88PILOT

 

I agree but feel we need to demonstrate our ability to expand to seal the deal. Just to be clear I'm not suggesting we sink a bunch of 200 ft caissons so we can build an 800ft tower. With an avg floorplate of 22K to 23Ksq ft all we need to do is prep for an additional 10 or so floors in the future. That shouldn't be to cost prohibitive; any engineers have some idea's?

Seal the deal to whom?

Obviously if people are already interested in signing leases, obviously they think the project if viable.

Perhaps scarcity of available floorspace is pushing people to sign up early rather than wait.

 

Just because it is bigger does not mean it is better.  If size were the only issue, Randal Park Mall would be thriving and Beachwood Place would be struggling.  That is not how that turned out.

 

Until there are facts stating that the MM building can not be expanded, or that companies are choosing not to join the Cleveland MM because it is too small, can we please give this a rest?

Seal the deal to whom?

Obviously if people are already interested in signing leases, obviously they think the project if viable.

Perhaps scarcity of available floorspace is pushing people to sign up early rather than wait.

 

Just because it is bigger does not mean it is better.  If size were the only issue, Randal Park Mall would be thriving and Beachwood Place would be struggling.  That is not how that turned out.

 

Until there are facts stating that the MM building can not be expanded, or that companies are choosing not to join the Cleveland MM because it is too small, can we please give this a rest?

 

Seal the deal as in keep the competition from getting off the ground.

 

Punch I'm not trying to be contentious but I think this is a valid point for discussion. I've stated I don't know which of the two projects has the scale right and I get your bigger is not better mantra. I simply believe small leaves the door open where big, or the ability to grow, slams it shut. Perhaps MMPI is planning to have the ability to add contiguous space, I don't know. I began this line of discussion merely to say I think they should.

Seal the deal to whom?

Obviously if people are already interested in signing leases, obviously they think the project if viable.

Perhaps scarcity of available floorspace is pushing people to sign up early rather than wait.

 

Just because it is bigger does not mean it is better. If size were the only issue, Randal Park Mall would be thriving and Beachwood Place would be struggling. That is not how that turned out.

 

Until there are facts stating that the MM building can not be expanded, or that companies are choosing not to join the Cleveland MM because it is too small, can we please give this a rest?

 

Seal the deal as in keep the competition from getting off the ground.

 

Punch I'm not trying to be contentious but I think this is a valid point for discussion. I've stated I don't know which of the two projects has the scale right and I get your bigger is not better mantra. I simply believe small leaves the door open where big, or the ability to grow, slams it shut. Perhaps MMPI is planning to have the ability to add contiguous space, I don't know. I began this line of discussion merely to say I think they should.

 

I've been to the Furniture Mart in North Carolina.  It's not big at all and furniture takes up a lot of space.  Also, and correct me if I'm wrong, but the MM like the furniture mart is not intended for a manufacturer to exhibit ALL of their products at any one time. 

Seal the deal to whom?

Obviously if people are already interested in signing leases, obviously they think the project if viable.

Perhaps scarcity of available floorspace is pushing people to sign up early rather than wait.

 

Just because it is bigger does not mean it is better.  If size were the only issue, Randal Park Mall would be thriving and Beachwood Place would be struggling.  That is not how that turned out.

 

Until there are facts stating that the MM building can not be expanded, or that companies are choosing not to join the Cleveland MM because it is too small, can we please give this a rest?

 

Seal the deal as in keep the competition from getting off the ground.

 

Punch I'm not trying to be contentious but I think this is a valid point for discussion. I've stated I don't know which of the two projects has the scale right and I get your bigger is not better mantra. I simply believe small leaves the door open where big, or the ability to grow, slams it shut. Perhaps MMPI is planning to have the ability to add contiguous space, I don't know. I began this line of discussion merely to say I think they should.

 

I've been to the Furniture Mart in North Carolina.  It's not big at all and furniture takes up a lot of space.  Also, and correct me if I'm wrong, but the MM like the furniture mart is not intended for a manufacturer to exhibit ALL of their products at any one time. 

 

IT'S NOT THAT BIG? 

^ If you both are referring to the one in Hickory... they claim to be over 1 million sq. ft.

Seal the deal to whom?

Obviously if people are already interested in signing leases, obviously they think the project if viable.

Perhaps scarcity of available floorspace is pushing people to sign up early rather than wait.

 

Just because it is bigger does not mean it is better. If size were the only issue, Randal Park Mall would be thriving and Beachwood Place would be struggling. That is not how that turned out.

 

Until there are facts stating that the MM building can not be expanded, or that companies are choosing not to join the Cleveland MM because it is too small, can we please give this a rest?

 

Seal the deal as in keep the competition from getting off the ground.

 

Punch I'm not trying to be contentious but I think this is a valid point for discussion. I've stated I don't know which of the two projects has the scale right and I get your bigger is not better mantra. I simply believe small leaves the door open where big, or the ability to grow, slams it shut. Perhaps MMPI is planning to have the ability to add contiguous space, I don't know. I began this line of discussion merely to say I think they should.

 

I've been to the Furniture Mart in North Carolina. It's not big at all and furniture takes up a lot of space. Also, and correct me if I'm wrong, but the MM like the furniture mart is not intended for a manufacturer to exhibit ALL of their products at any one time.

 

IT'S NOT THAT BIG?

 

Are you talking about the one in Hickory?  If that's the one, I didn't think it was that big

HIGH POINT 

 

However, this thread is about CC/MM.  ;)

Is this it?  www.hickoryfurniture.com

 

Yes, that's the one

Yes, that's the one

 

However that is not the high point merchandise mart.  Those marts a gigantic.

 

Now back to Cleveland

Are there any guesses on how big the new parking facility is going to be? ;)

Hey, new here. Just wondering, is anyone sure if this is actually happening? This is such a good proposal for Cleveland and I'm getting annoyed with just hearing talk about it.

 

I'm from Youngstown but I love Cleveland and I plan on living there someday.

Welcome Coneybear :wave:

 

Nothing is "actually happening" until ground is broke, but "all systems are a go" if you know what I mean.

 

Read the last 15-20 pages of this thread and you will be caught up to speed.  You can also check out this website - http://clevelandmedicalmart.com/

Thanks Hts44121! That website's very helpful.

Welcome Coneybear, I've considered writing a book about Youngstown and have done lots of advocacy work there. I love that people of that city.

 

A lot of the work going on now with the convention center involves negotiations, programming, detailed design and legal work. It's not the stuff that makes headlines (although the property negotiation has), but there is a lot going on.

So Tim Hagan was asked about the construction timetable while on the radio yeaterday morning and he said shovels will be in the ground for the Public Hall phase in about 90 days. So take that for what its worth.

So Tim Hagan was asked about the construction timetable while on the radio yeaterday morning and he said shovels will be in the ground for the Public Hall phase in about 90 days. So take that for what its worth.

 

They'll have to dig through the foot of snow first...

I get the metaphor, but isn't the Public Hall phase an internal remodel? 

 

Plans for Cleveland's new convention center and medical mart are changing

By Laura Johnston, The Plain Dealer

November 06, 2009, 4:00AM

 

"The unanticipated costs -- coupled with stalled negotiations for additional downtown property for the medical mart -- have forced the developers, Chicago-based MMPI, to reconfigure much of the project."

 

UH-OH!

 

more at:  http://blog.cleveland.com/metro/2009/11/medical_mart_proposed_for_new.html

What a mess. I am beginning to question the competency of MMPI and their ability to bring in a first class facility. 

What a mess. I am beginning to question the competency of MMPI and their ability to bring in a first class facility. 

 

I wouldn't be held hostage by someone who wants more for their property than it's worth.  Any manager would have a "plan b".

 

Whats really wrong with this change?

 

Secondly if PH needs 60-100 million dollars of upgrades, I too would probably dump it now yet keep discussions open to add it later.

 

I, for one, said way back, that the cost for this project was too low for all the work that needs to be done and for the size of the center we are getting.

What a mess. I am beginning to question the competency of MMPI and their ability to bring in a first class facility.

 

I wouldn't be held hostage by someone who wants more for their property than it's worth. Any manager would have a "plan b".

 

Whats really wrong with this change?

 

Secondly if PH needs 60-100 million dollars of upgrades, I too would probably dump it now yet keep discussions open to add it later.

 

I, for one, said way back, that the cost for this project was too low for all the work that needs to be done and for the size of the center we are getting.

 

I felt the same when I heard they capped the cost at $450 million.  Weren't there plans done 20 years ago (if not longer) that called for much higher costs? 

It's obvious that the Commissioners knew going in that they would not be able to build at the PA site for $450M, but planned on ramming cost overruns (for a "fee" of course) through while in office.  Just as FC knew they wouldn't be able to build for their "rock-bottom" price last quote for their TC site; cost overruns would've happened after surveyors found X or Y, etc..

 

The above is also reason enough to worry about the Cleveland casino, someobody will pull a wildcard out at some point, and if Gilbert doesn't grease the right palm, look out..

Is a Jacobs hotel to go up on St. Clair?? What happens to the green space ? I just don't get what is going on.

Is a Jacobs hotel to go up on St. Clair?? What happens to the green space ? I just don't get what is going on.

 

What space are you talking about.  show us with a map

Is a Jacobs hotel to go up on St. Clair?? What happens to the green space ? I just don't get what is going on.

 

What space are you talking about. show us with a map

 

I guess I made a mistake. Sorry.

Are they suggesting that they will build the MM on Mall C, now?  Because that's how it reads.  Seems preposterous.

The article just skims the discussions before regarding the county leaving their current space.  The county, reportedly, was looking for upwards of 250,000 sqft of available space just in case this happened.  They were willing to move their offices and tear down the administrative building so the MM could be built there.

 

I think that this would be the best case scenario.  However, we'll see what MMPI comes up with.  Hopefully, Public Auditorium sees some type of life in the future.

Are they suggesting that they will build the MM on Mall C, now?  Because that's how it reads.  Seems preposterous.

 

Why?

 

The center would still have the same footprint, with the MM on Mall C above.  I wonder if the parking lots will be included in the space?