I can tell you that, with the Casino going up, I am more inclined to support the site behind TC if a switch-a-roo is in order.  However, I do not foresee that happening at all as we would likely run into even bigger cost-overruns with the engineering nightmare that would ensue while trying to create a suitable foundation.... remember the whole "straightening the river" talk? 

"What is your beef with the Mayor?  Are you a tax paying citizen of Cleveland?"

 

Currently a taxpayer of the City of Seattle.  Taxpayer of the City of Cleveland from 1970-1985.  The Mayor is the right man at the wrong time.  Good at balancing the books, bad at the "vision thing" and totally lacking in business acumen, contacts, etc.  He would be OK in a booming economy with the right economic development czar.  He is not what Cleveland needs at this time. 

 

P.S. I am a very poor speller, grammar not so bad!

 

 

I can agree with that...  Oh and Tedolph's spelling isn't that relevent here, were talking about the mayor.

Is it too late to build a Med Mart/Convention Center behind Tower City, next to the casino?

 

Destroying Mall C and leaving Public Auditorium to rot just isn't worth it.

 

Maybe $1 billion in development along Ontario and Huron wouldn't be such a bad thing...

The site is selected.  How it's built out that is the issue.

Don't get cold feet. The same arguments remain why rebuilding the old convention center site is better than attempting to squeeze a new convention center into the location behind Tower City. They have been discussed ad nauseum in this thread....

 

Try to have a happy thanksgiving everyone!

I can tell you that, with the Casino going up, I am more inclined to support the site behind TC if a switch-a-roo is in order. However, I do not foresee that happening at all as we would likely run into even bigger cost-overruns with the engineering nightmare that would ensue while trying to create a suitable foundation.... remember the whole "straightening the river" talk?

While putting the med mart/convention center there would certainly have it's pros, what would be done with the current underground location? Besides, I think it's already decided that it will happen on the current site. There's just a bunch of different ways it could play out...

A good editorial about why the Mall C site is no good in the long-run, and why MMPI should stick with the original plan:

 

MMPI plan for medical mart may be best for the company, but not the best for Cleveland

By Steven Litt, The Plain Dealer

November 25, 2009, 4:00AM

 

The price of getting the nation's first medical mart suddenly got a lot steeper for Cleveland.

 

In a presentation last week, MMPI Inc. of Chicago showed Cleveland City Council how its new desire to put the medical mart atop Mall C at the north end of the city's convention center would simplify the project and cut costs dramatically.

 

http://blog.cleveland.com/architecture/2009/11/mmpi_plan_for_medical_mart_may.html

Sorry for the triple post, but this is a pretty relevant story:

 

Cleveland Mayor Frank Jackson to seek outside review of Public Auditorium's condition

By Henry J. Gomez, The Plain Dealer

November 25, 2009, 6:15PM

 

CLEVELAND, Ohio -- Mayor Frank Jackson fears that event promoters could cancel shows at city-owned Public Auditorium because of a private developer’s report that last week revealed potentially hazardous conditions there.

 

Jackson, who is skeptical of the detailed findings from MMPI of Chicago, said Wednesday in a phone interview that he will hire an independent consultant to assess the 87-year-old building.

 

http://blog.cleveland.com/metro/2009/11/cleveland_mayor_frank_jackson_9.html

While putting the med mart/convention center there would certainly have it's pros, what would be done with the current underground location?

What will be done with the current Public Auditorium?  There's problems with every location...

While putting the med mart/convention center there would certainly have it's pros, what would be done with the current underground location?

What will be done with the current Public Auditorium? There's problems with every location...

I'm sure something would eventually be done with public auditorium. The city will renovate it in the future, but it won't be to its fullest potential, just enough to pass.

Remember how most of us were so happy that they picked the Mall site?  I hope the Mayor stands his ground and really holds MMPI accountable.

I don't remember if these were shown before but I just thought that some of these were interesting.

 

Maybe a casino like this would be nice?

 

Yes, a casino like that would sure be nice. But this is about the medical mart/convention center.

 

Mayor Jackson really needs to start hammering down on MMPI. The original plans at the St. Claire site (plus the renovation of Public Auditorium) are what needs to happen. The Mall C site just spells trouble for Cleveland in the long run. I hope the private reviewer finds that MMPI exaggerated just how bad PA is (and I have a feeling they did). Cleveland needs to not settle for just what they can get.  The original plan for the MM/CC is best for Cleveland and I think it should be possible to negotiate around all these problems. 

The convention center site never really worked.  Without public hall in the mix, the current convention center site is even a worse choice.

 

First off, Public Hall is an historic structure which needed to be revamped to preserve part of the beauty of the Cleveland Mall.  It was exciting that this structure was going to have new life breathed into it by this project.  Public Hall was going to include the much needed meeting areas for a convention center to work.  With Public Hall cut, from the plan, those meeting areas do not exist. 

 

MMPI’s most recent drawings show that the truck access has changed to the buildings.  No longer is there easy truck access which was shown in the initial plans.

 

That leaves a convention center with almost no meeting area and limited truck access.  So, what is Cleveland getting?  A better convention hall?  Because of the road, the main hall is bisected with a section of roof which is a mere 18 feet high.  Not exactly a good height for a modern convention. 

 

Therefore, as the plan sits, we are getting a facility which is lacking meeting space, has poor truck access and will have an awkward if not substandard convention hall.

It is frustrating to me that after 5 YEARS of discussion regarding the convention center, this latest plan is what we could end up with.  Is this the best we can do? 

 

Public Hall MUST be included.  Public Hall was part of the main reason why the current site was superior to the site behind TC- that we could be first to market with the MM.  Reportedly, this isn't going to be the case anymore.  How does this happen after 5 years of discussions, negotiations, planning, etc.? 

"despite a pledge by commissioners for a transparent process, the changes have not been discussed in public. And the public won't necessarily get a say on the two-dozen alternative plans MMPI has drawn up." PD quote

^^5 years. Try 20 and this is the closest we have been to actually getting something done.  Say what you want about the process, it took the commissioners to implement an unpopular tax to get this thing moving.  We would still be talking and going around in circles right now without this as everybody wanted a new convention center but nobody could figure out how to finance it or had the balls to tax.

Screw MMPI.  If the medical mart concept is such a great idea, why can't the City/County do it themselves and just hire an operator? We have the money.  If we were able to run a convention center why can't we run a medical mart/convention center.  Now that MMPI has done all the economic studies/financial due diligence do we really need them now that we know that the idea is sound?

If the medical mart concept is such a great idea, why can't the City/County do it themselves and just hire an operator?

 

How is that different from the current arrangement?

A partial quote from a Plain Dealer article on November 26, 2009 and MMPI still receives $333,333 a month for consulting etc.--------

 

"A Cleveland city councilman has set four public meetings for early next year to drive discussion on the newest plan for a medical mart and convention center.

 

"This project has to move forward," said Councilman Joe Cimperman on Thursday. "It's too critical for the region, for the economy. We just gotta put our heads down and get this thing done."

 

The meetings, planned for January and February, will each focus on one aspect of developer MMPI's latest vision for the $425 million complex -- to build a modern glass structure cascading from the bluff of Mall C. Subjects will include city planning, economic impact, architecture and the park-like Mall downtown."

 

http://blog.cleveland.com/metro/2009/11/cleveland_councilman_joe_cimpe_1.html

What exactly is the point of this nonrefundable $300 thousand per month.  Can we start putting these monthly payments in escrow until we figure out if we're even getting the damn thing???  I mean, MMPI must laughing its arse off right now.  What the hell are we paying them for

^^5 years. Try 20 and this is the closest we have been to actually getting something done. Say what you want about the process, it took the commissioners to implement an unpopular tax to get this thing moving. We would still be talking and going around in circles right now without this as everybody wanted a new convention center but nobody could figure out how to finance it or had the balls to tax.

 

In my opinion, we're still going in circles even with the tax, though I agree that we could very well be stuck at the beginning of this process without dedicated funding.

 

My point is that if PA indeed has as many problems as claimed and will cost $90 million to renovate, why is this just being revealed when MMPI has had this much time to analyze the site?  We might not even be "first to market"... part of the main reason why the PA was included in the site plan to begin with.  Do we lose our competitive advantage if this project does not occur first?  Will we get a world class facility built on Mall C, which the city would deserve, and should expect and demand for such a site?  In my opinion, I just don't see $425 million being able to fund such a site along with the construction of the convention center.  And at this point, I don't expect much from the county commish's in regards to restructuring the deal (if at all possible). 

I think everyone should send a letter to Cimperman in regards to where the MM should be built. Building it on Mall C is bad for Cleveland in the long-run. I'm sure there's a way to negotiate the St. Claire site so everyone is somewhat happy. It doesn't seem like there's been much talking with the property owners there.

^^5 years. Try 20 and this is the closest we have been to actually getting something done.  Say what you want about the process, it took the commissioners to implement an unpopular tax to get this thing moving.  We would still be talking and going around in circles right now without this as everybody wanted a new convention center but nobody could figure out how to finance it or had the balls to tax.

 

In my opinion, we're still going in circles even with the tax, though I agree that we could very well be stuck at the beginning of this process without dedicated funding.

 

My point is that if PA indeed has as many problems as claimed and will cost $90 million to renovate, why is this just being revealed when MMPI has had this much time to analyze the site?  We might not even be "first to market"... part of the main reason why the PA was included in the site plan to begin with.  Do we lose our competitive advantage if this project does not occur first?  Will we get a world class facility built on Mall C, which the city would deserve, and should expect and demand for such a site?  In my opinion, I just don't see $425 million being able to fund such a site along with the construction of the convention center.  And at this point, I don't expect much from the county commish's in regards to restructuring the deal (if at all possible). 

 

It looks like another step for Nashville.  This would tell me that if we are not first that $425 million certainly isnt enough for even a (competetive) comparable or world class facilities.  (On the other hand, hopefully it is too much for them to get financed)

 

From the PD:

"NASHVILLE, Tenn. -- Plans for a Nashville medical mart got a big push this morning when developers announced the site for the 2 million-square-foot complex: the city's existing, mostly underground convention center.

 

Dallas-based Market Center Management Co. would build a $250-million, 12-story tower atop the current center, says a news release from the company. To make that happen, though, a new $585 million  convention center would have to be approved, according to the Tennessean."

 

http://blog.cleveland.com/metro/2009/11/nashville_medical_mart_announc.html

I try and not post just to rant because it's not useful, and I have not idea of what the goings on behind the scene is with the MM, but I just can't imagine why leaders throughout Cleveland and Ohio including the Governor, UH and Clinic officials can not bring all the best minds together and work this out? Getting this project done is so very important you would think together they could either come up with the additional funds to still use PH or make a different decision. Is it as disjointed as it seems? Looks like Jackson is hanging out by himself trying to lead but it seems like we need a complete and unified front on this coming from all the leaders or does that just not happen because of egos or whatever? I would think the Governor seeing how important this is for jobs etc. that he could help and find funds for PH? Am I just out of my mind here? I really hope this turns the corner and soon although I am not as freaked about Nashville because it seems like it can't be that easy for them to move so fast plus they don't have near the medical strengths like the Cleve does with UH and the Clinic.

^That sounds just way too logical.  Getting the Fed, state, county, city, the Clinic, UH, Cleveland Tomorrow (whatever they are called now)and MMPI officials to sit at a table for a day to see if everyone still wants to move forward, and what everyone wants to get out of the deal.  If it is doable, do it.  If not, kill it now.  Don't just let it twist in the wind and start a long miserable finger pointing litany of press releases.

I try and not post just to rant because it's not useful, and I have not idea of what the goings on behind the scene is with the MM, but I just can't imagine why leaders throughout Cleveland and Ohio including the Governor, UH and Clinic officials can not bring all the best minds together and work this out? Getting this project done is so very important you would think together they could either come up with the additional funds to still use PH or make a different decision. Is it as disjointed as it seems? Looks like Jackson is hanging out by himself trying to lead but it seems like we need a complete and unified front on this coming from all the leaders or does that just not happen because of egos or whatever? I would think the Governor seeing how important this is for jobs etc. that he could help and find funds for PH? Am I just out of my mind here? I really hope this turns the corner and soon although I am not as freaked about Nashville because it seems like it can't be that easy for them to move so fast plus they don't have near the medical strengths like the Cleve does with UH and the Clinic.

 

 

I agree.  This is one of those times when certain elected officials need to man up and admit that they didn't properly fund this Project.  It's also time for MMPI to lay its cards on the table and say what it is to which they will commit.  I've always beleived that this project was underfunded.  If ther present tax needs to be enhanced, then do it.  the present Commissioners don't seem to be at political risk because more than likely they won't have jobs much longer anyway. 

MMPI wants out now that new elected officials are going to be in charge.  That is why they presented something they know will be unacceptable.  The Governor, state representatives, etc. are staying out because they perceive that this is a political albatross.  Only the Mayor is coming to the dance because he doesn't know any better.

the renderings of the Nashville building look much better i have to say unfortunately

I'm not too worried about the Nashville mart even if it looks nicer. Cleveland has University Hospitals and the Cleveland Clinic. If* our mart is built Cleveland's should have the upper hand over Nashville's because of those two world-class medical facilities.

 

*I hate using the word "if" for things like this...

Talk to me when Nashville "secures" their financing.  As of now, they are several years behind us no matter what developer spin we are hearing through the media.  They just picked a site and need money... lots and lots of it.  We picked our site long ago and secured financing before that.  If Nashville makes it through the sea of red tape they are about to encounter without delay, that would shock the hell out of me.

MMPI wants out now that new elected officials are going to be in charge. That is why they presented something they know will be unacceptable. The Governor, state representatives, etc. are staying out because they perceive that this is a political albatross. Only the Mayor is coming to the dance because he doesn't know any better.

 

You have proof?  Or are you stating your hunch as if it were fact?

MMPI wants out now that new elected officials are going to be in charge.  That is why they presented something they know will be unacceptable.  The Governor, state representatives, etc. are staying out because they perceive that this is a political albatross.  Only the Mayor is coming to the dance because he doesn't know any better.

 

WTF!?!?!  I'll grant you that alot of what is going seems weird but MMPI has had plenty of time to pull-out of the Project.  They are a private business and are not going to stick around if the ROI evaporates.  Having said that what is probably going on is alot of negotiating ploys and corporate brinksmanship, truckulant property owners plus what now appears to be significant cost overages.  This all has to play itself out. 

Talk to me when Nashville "secures" their financing.  As of now, they are several years behind us no matter what developer spin we are hearing through the media.  They just picked a site and need money... lots and lots of it.  We picked our site long ago and secured financing before that.  If Nashville makes it through the sea of red tape they are about to encounter without delay, that would shock the hell out of me.

 

According to this: http://nashville.bizjournals.com/nashville/stories/2009/11/30/daily15.html

there will be a city council vote on a yet unannounced financing proposal for Nashville's new convention center in January.  I have no idea how many hoops these folks have left to jump through, but it seems at least possible that they could catch up very soon if financing is our big lead.

 

Nashville is trying to build a brand new convention center. The contract that was executed has just been "audited" and some very serious issues have surfaced. This could affect the entire plan for Nville's mart. I'm not completely in the know, but that has been front page stuff in the Tennessean last week.

Nice to see that according to the comments on the "Tennessean" are just as supportive as the comments on Cleveland.com.

MMPI wants out now that new elected officials are going to be in charge.  That is why they presented something they know will be unacceptable.  The Governor, state representatives, etc. are staying out because they perceive that this is a political albatross.  Only the Mayor is coming to the dance because he doesn't know any better.

 

You have proof?  Or are you stating your hunch as if it were fact?

 

Hunch

Cleveland land needed for medical mart project no longer worth $20 million, Cuyahoga Commissioner Peter Lawson Jones says

By Henry J. Gomez, The Plain Dealer

December 03, 2009, 1:15AM

 

CLEVELAND, Ohio -- One Cuyahoga County commissioner believes Mayor Frank Jackson should lower his $20 million asking price for city-owned land coveted for a medical merchandise mart and new convention center.

Peter Lawson Jones said this week that potentially hazardous conditions found at Public Auditorium must be considered as county and city officials renegotiate a deal for the property.

 

http://blog.cleveland.com/metro/2009/12/cleveland_land_needed_for_medi.html

ahhhh so the gist of the article is that the County pays less than $10MM for PA and commits additional dollars to renovate and bring it up to code.  Mr. Jones estimates an additional $15MM...... 

I hope the city waits till the independent review of the structure is completed before contemplating any offers like PLJ's.

 

ahhhh so the gist of the article is that the County pays less than $10MM for PA and commits additional dollars to renovate and bring it up to code.  Mr. Jones estimates an additional $15MM...... 

 

Is that what it said (I read it several times and Im not sure)?

 

But wouldnt building on Mall C, take away a "valuable" vista of the lake (thus increasing the price for that piece)?

"I don’t want to negotiate this figure," Jones said. "Let’s keep it real here."

 

Yea, Fo Real!

Sorry for what might be a stupid (or moot) question.  I have attended a number of large consumer trade shows on a regular basis e.g. CES show in Las Vegas, local trade shows at Seattle's convention center, etc.  Other than things like the boat show (which can be handled at the IX center) I have never seen a display or booth 30' tall.  If we have the IX center for the odd shows like that, why does the MM need 30' tall ceilings other than that is what the client wants?

^

Sorry for what might be a stupid (or moot) question.  I have attended a number of large consumer trade shows on a regular basis e.g. CES show in Las Vegas, local trade shows at Seattle's convention center, etc.  Other than things like the boat show (which can be handled at the IX center) I have never seen a display or booth 30' tall.  If we have the IX center for the odd shows like that, why does the MM need 30' tall ceilings other than that is what the client wants?

 

So you'll be in Lost Wages next month?

Sorry for what might be a stupid (or moot) question. I have attended a number of large consumer trade shows on a regular basis e.g. CES show in Las Vegas, local trade shows at Seattle's convention center, etc. Other than things like the boat show (which can be handled at the IX center) I have never seen a display or booth 30' tall. If we have the IX center for the odd shows like that, why does the MM need 30' tall ceilings other than that is what the client wants?

 

Because the IX Center is in an isolated location.  There's nothing there, there (Gertrude Stein).  Again, the new CC/MM is an investment in the City's/County's/Region's future.  Build it right.

Sorry for what might be a stupid (or moot) question.  I have attended a number of large consumer trade shows on a regular basis e.g. CES show in Las Vegas, local trade shows at Seattle's convention center, etc.  Other than things like the boat show (which can be handled at the IX center) I have never seen a display or booth 30' tall.  If we have the IX center for the odd shows like that, why does the MM need 30' tall ceilings other than that is what the client wants?

 

If you include the lighting and set pieces above most trade show booths the ceiling height of 30' is a good target.

Happily I report my worst fears and projections were wrong. I will take this as good news: it seems the WPC in NY is abandoning the massive high-rise aspect of their competing medical mart in favor of repurposing other class A space. It would seem they too are more concerned with first to market and most likely feel financing is too far off in this economy. There is no mention of what will become of the site they own and have prepped, my guess is they want to secure clients now and entice them with grandeur later. Odd it's reported in Nashville first (that I know of) not NY or Cleveland.

 

http://www.nashvillepost.com/news/2009/12/14/race_to_market

 

^ This was a broken link before but seems to work at this posting; hope it works for you.

^ quite the news scoop, thx!

The article says they are scaling down the project which allows them to be "first to market" a lot quicker than Cleveland or Nashville.  Doesn't sound like a whole lot of good news to me.  And yes we have financing in place while the others don't which is our leg up if you will.

It seems to me the only "leg up" is MMPI's attitude toward this community.