Prediction:  Cleveland's medical mart is defeated by a small diner on St. Clair and an unforuntate eminent domain case in Norwood, as Ohio's distaste for coordinated regional effort strikes again!  I hope I'm wrong.

I don't know if it is time to be frustrated by the apparent lack of progress as of yet... but it's frustrating.

I don't know if it is time to be frustrated by the apparent lack of progress as of yet... but it's frustrating.

 

I am not being an apologist, but with a project like this, do you expect shovels to be in the ground in a year?  Why do people think projects of this size/magnitude should be planned, executed, constructed at the snap of a finger??

 

Seriously, I ask so I can understand what you mean by "lack of progress"? There are so many things, the public doesn't see, hear or read about, that go on behind the scenes, before a shovel even his the ground.  Also, in our case we have to deal with existing infrastructure and historical & protected buildings.

I understand what your are saying MTS - but at the same point this is being built with public money - OUR MONEY - and was supposed to be done in an open and transparent process.  I would say this project has been everything but open and transaparent.

^Bingo.

I understand what your are saying MTS - but at the same point this is being built with public money - OUR MONEY - and was supposed to be done in an open and transparent process.  I would say this project has been everything but open and transaparent.

 

I on the fence about that.  There are a lot of legal issues, that we really dont need to be involved in even if it is our money.  Do you really want to know all the sh*t behind the scenes and if you do, will we (the general public) really understand?

I understand what your are saying MTS - but at the same point this is being built with public money - OUR MONEY - and was supposed to be done in an open and transparent process.  I would say this project has been everything but open and transaparent.

 

Hence my use of "apparent"... and I agree 100%.

I don't know if it is time to be frustrated by the apparent lack of progress as of yet... but it's frustrating.

 

I am not being an apologist, but with a project like this, do you expect shovels to be in the ground in a year?  Why do people think projects of this size/magnitude should be planned, executed, constructed at the snap of a finger??

 

One year? A snap of a finger? Planning for this project began 4+ years ago and financing has been in place for 2+ years.  Yes, this is a very complicated process and a big project, but IMHO, I don't think it's unreasonable to have expected more progress by now.  Especially after several promises that we'd be further along by now.

I understand what your are saying MTS - but at the same point this is being built with public money - OUR MONEY - and was supposed to be done in an open and transparent process. I would say this project has been everything but open and transaparent.

 

I on the fence about that. There are a lot of legal issues, that we really dont need to be involved in even if it is our money. Do you really want to know all the sh*t behind the scenes and if you do, will we (the general public) really understand?

 

Transparancy will only get you so far before it's so transparent it becomes impossible to negotiate in confidence.  Remember what von Bismark said:  "If you like good laws and good sausages, never ask how either on is made".

Prediction:  Cleveland's medical mart is defeated by a small diner on St. Clair

 

It's not the owners of the Sportsman that are the hold up...  It's the other property owner.

 

Maybe they could just tear down the Sportsman and build a mini medical mart...

I don't believe that there's no way that they can reach a compromise between MMPI and the property owners on St. Clair. I don't think they're trying hard enough.

L&R development... not so easy to deal with.

Sometimes I wish eminent domain wasn't such a long process.....

^If you were a property owner that didn't want to move you would be glad it is.  I can't remember what the asking price was exactly, but I didn't think it was crazy.  You had to know that their asking price would be in line with what the property would be worth with a new CC and Med Mart next door.  That's just good business sense.  Now, if MMPI shows signs of failing then they may drop their price to get SOMETHING out of the deal, but if the property owners think it's going to get built regardless then they have a very valuable piece of land for a hotel.

^I believe the asking price was $17 million (I could be wrong though).  And again, when property is required for a project to happen, the price the property is worth inflates greatly.

I think $17 million is the amount MMPI was expecting, but the property owners are asking for something around $24. I may be wrong but I think I'm close.

I think $17 million is the amount MMPI was expecting, but the property owners are asking for something around $24. I may be wrong but I think I'm close.

 

Looking through some posts I believe the asking price from the property owners was approximately $17 million.  Not sure what MMPI wanted to spend, but I don't think it was a lot less.  With the $35 million or so saved by not renovating PH you would think they would just buy the damn property, but I guess they have other plans.

I understand what your are saying MTS - but at the same point this is being built with public money - OUR MONEY - and was supposed to be done in an open and transparent process. I would say this project has been everything but open and transaparent.

 

I on the fence about that. There are a lot of legal issues, that we really dont need to be involved in even if it is our money. Do you really want to know all the sh*t behind the scenes and if you do, will we (the general public) really understand?

 

Transparancy will only get you so far before it's so transparent it becomes impossible to negotiate in confidence. Remember what von Bismark said: "If you like good laws and good sausages, never ask how either on is made".

 

Bingo!

I think $17 million is the amount MMPI was expecting, but the property owners are asking for something around $24. I may be wrong but I think I'm close.

 

These amounts are correct, per the PD and Crain's articles from a few weeks ago.

 

EDIT:  Here's the Crain's article I mentioned earlier:

 

http://www.crainscleveland.com/article/20091117/FREE/911179980

^Thanks.  So they were $7 million apart.  That's a little farther apart than I thought.

According to Roldo, there has not been much good faith negotiations ,on the part of MMPI , with parcel owners or City, so it seems these figures  would appear questionable.  http://realneo.us/content/mmpi-gets-more-county-spends-600000-more-med-mart-deal

 

"MMPI told Council that it couldn’t deal with land owners at St. Clair and Ontario. They were asking too high a price. These properties were needed to build the medical mart as part of the deal for a new convention center. Falanga said that the price of $17 million was too much. Two representatives of the owners at the meeting said after that MMPI had not negotiated with the owners. One said MMPI had made two telephone calls to his client. Another said MMPI offered $800,000 to one parcel owner and the owner countered with $6-million. But there was no dickering. No counter offer. They just walked away."

 

http://realneo.us/content/mmpi-playing-cleveland-cuyahoga-county

MMPI is really getting on my nerves. It seems like they aren't even trying.

MMPI is really getting on my nerves.

 

Isn't there another company that could run the medical mart?  There are other competing cities, so someone also does this.  If it is such a good idea, someone has to jump on it. 

Here's a crazy idea. Put it out for competitive bid. MMPI acts as if they are doing us a favor. Take it or leave it. Stop payments. What ever "work product" they have done belong to us, the client. Let them compete in a open process. They have drug this out and we still have no idea want they are doing. No firm contract with ANY of the principals.  They have done their best to alienate the citizens, the City, the County and the parcel owners. This does not have the makings for a good long term relationship. Whatever the reasons, it might be time to break off the engagement. Let's find out what kind of prenuptial Ol'Fred drew up.

Here's a crazy idea. Put it out for competitive bid. MMPI acts as if they are doing us a favor. Take it or leave it. Stop payments. What ever "work product" they have done belong to us, the client. Let them compete in a open process. They have drug this out and we still have no idea want they are doing. No firm contract with ANY of the principals.  They have done their best to alienate the citizens, the City, the County and the parcel owners. This does not have the makings for a good long term relationship. Whatever the reasons, it might be time to break off the engagement. Let's find out what kind of prenuptial Ol'Fred drew up.

 

You've written this, but I dont see any concrete proof of any of your statements.

According to Roldo, there has not been much good faith negotiations ,on the part of MMPI , with parcel owners or City, so it seems these figures would appear questionable. http://realneo.us/content/mmpi-gets-more-county-spends-600000-more-med-mart-deal

 

"MMPI told Council that it couldnt deal with land owners at St. Clair and Ontario. They were asking too high a price. These properties were needed to build the medical mart as part of the deal for a new convention center. Falanga said that the price of $17 million was too much. Two representatives of the owners at the meeting said after that MMPI had not negotiated with the owners. One said MMPI had made two telephone calls to his client. Another said MMPI offered $800,000 to one parcel owner and the owner countered with $6-million. But there was no dickering. No counter offer. They just walked away."

 

http://realneo.us/content/mmpi-playing-cleveland-cuyahoga-county

 

Is this something that can be layed completely on MMPIs doorstep.  Is it their responsibility to acquire property?  Even if it is, don't forgt they've been given a budget with which to work.  $450MM will only get you so much.  If it seems that they are not trying maybe it's because whats being offered for the property vs what the owners want is so far apart as to not even warrant the time.  Seriously, I think more money needs to be found to properly fund this Project.

According to Roldo, there has not been much good faith negotiations ,on the part of MMPI , with parcel owners or City, so it seems these figures  would appear questionable.  http://realneo.us/content/mmpi-gets-more-county-spends-600000-more-med-mart-deal

 

"MMPI told Council that it couldn’t deal with land owners at St. Clair and Ontario. They were asking too high a price. These properties were needed to build the medical mart as part of the deal for a new convention center. Falanga said that the price of $17 million was too much. Two representatives of the owners at the meeting said after that MMPI had not negotiated with the owners. One said MMPI had made two telephone calls to his client. Another said MMPI offered $800,000 to one parcel owner and the owner countered with $6-million. But there was no dickering. No counter offer. They just walked away."

 

http://realneo.us/content/mmpi-playing-cleveland-cuyahoga-county

 

Is this something that can be layed completely on MMPIs doorstep.  Is it their responsibility to acquire property?  Even if it is, don't forgt they've been given a budget with which to work.  $450MM will only get you so much.  If it seems that they are not trying maybe it's because whats being offered for the property vs what the owners want is so far apart as to not even warrant the time.  Seriously, I think more money needs to be found to properly fund this Project.

Why can't the county just do it themselves? We have the money, we know how to run a convention center.  The due diligence has been completed.  what do we need MMPI for? I thnk the city/county can twist arms with the property owners in ways MMPI can't.

Why can't the county just do it themselves? We have the money, we know how to run a convention center.  The due diligence has been completed.  what do we need MMPI for? I thnk the city/county can twist arms with the property owners in ways MMPI can't.

 

BECAUSE THE CITY/COUNT DOESN'T KNOW HOW TO RUN A MERCHANDISE MART.  THAT IS WHERE THE MONEY IS GOING TO BE MADE.

Why can't the county just do it themselves? We have the money, we know how to run a convention center. The due diligence has been completed. what do we need MMPI for? I thnk the city/county can twist arms with the property owners in ways MMPI can't.

 

I'm curious as to what in county's actions, competencies, and performance inspires confidence in you that they should run this the MM or the CC. 

I think more funding is necessary to get this project done the way we want it (and the way Cleveland needs it)

Why can't the county just do it themselves? We have the money, we know how to run a convention center.  The due diligence has been completed.  what do we need MMPI for? I thnk the city/county can twist arms with the property owners in ways MMPI can't.

 

I'm curious as to what in county's actions, competencies, and performance inspires confidence in you that they should run this the MM or the CC. 

 

Great question!  :clap:

Here's a crazy idea. Put it out for competitive bid. MMPI acts as if they are doing us a favor. Take it or leave it. Stop payments. What ever "work product" they have done belong to us, the client. Let them compete in a open process. They have drug this out and we still have no idea want they are doing. No firm contract with ANY of the principals. They have done their best to alienate the citizens, the City, the County and the parcel owners. This does not have the makings for a good long term relationship. Whatever the reasons, it might be time to break off the engagement. Let's find out what kind of prenuptial Ol'Fred drew up.

 

You've written this, but I dont see any concrete proof of any of your statements.

 

Suggested reading includes Roldo,Mayor's press statements, public comments by City Council members , public comments on this and other forums, statements by the County administrator. If you don't see you are not looking.

Here's a crazy idea. Put it out for competitive bid. MMPI acts as if they are doing us a favor. Take it or leave it. Stop payments. What ever "work product" they have done belong to us, the client. Let them compete in a open process. They have drug this out and we still have no idea want they are doing. No firm contract with ANY of the principals.  They have done their best to alienate the citizens, the City, the County and the parcel owners. This does not have the makings for a good long term relationship. Whatever the reasons, it might be time to break off the engagement. Let's find out what kind of prenuptial Ol'Fred drew up.

 

You've written this, but I dont see any concrete proof of any of your statements.

 

Suggested reading includes Roldo,Mayor's press statements, public comments by City Council members , public comments on this and other forums, statements by the County administrator. If you don't see you are not looking.

 

I'm not trying toput you on the spot, but you made the above statement and have been hyper critical of this project.  Give me the bullet points.

Gee theres only 168 pages of it.....

I am very much in favor of this project. I can't recall being hyper critical about it. I have ALWAYS supported the rebuilding of the Convention Center and it's current location. I have, in the past, supported MMPI's inclusion in the project. I am now questioning their commitment to the community and their ability to develop the project. Perhaps it is time to explore another developer/operator in a open bidding process. MMPI  has yet to get a contract signed with a single exhibitor because they do not have a contract, location or anything concrete to offer. Looking at other convention facilities costs and amenities, I agree that we are underfunded. Why has this not been formally brought up? What has become of the critical "first to market concept"? Why wasn't due diligence of PA preformed? This is a very strange "partnership" with the public left sucking hind tit, so far. I want to see some positive movement  and very soon. I want to see shovels in the ground and demolition started but it is not happening because no one seems to know what the hell they are doing.

You've written this, but I dont see any concrete proof of any of your statements.

 

How dare someone write their opinion in an online forum!

You've written this, but I dont see any concrete proof of any of your statements.

 

How dare someone write their opinion in an online forum!

 

I know, right? ::)

I am very much in favor of this project. I can't recall being hyper critical about it. I have ALWAYS supported the rebuilding of the Convention Center and it's current location. I have, in the past, supported MMPI's inclusion in the project. I am now questioning their commitment to the community and their ability to develop the project. Perhaps it is time to explore another developer/operator in a open bidding process. MMPI  has yet to get a contract signed with a single exhibitor because they do not have a contract, location or anything concrete to offer. Looking at other convention facilities costs and amenities, I agree that we are underfunded. Why has this not been formally brought up? What has become of the critical "first to market concept"? Why wasn't due diligence of PA preformed? This is a very strange "partnership" with the public left sucking hind tit, so far. I want to see some positive movement  and very soon. I want to see shovels in the ground and demolition started but it is not happening because no one seems to know what the hell they are doing.

 

I should say, you've been critical of the manner in which the project has been handled.

 

None of us are at the table so how do we really know what's "progress" is taking place?  That then leads to some people's complaints of fair and open practices.

 

Again, what something "seems" like might not be "reality".  Again, not being an apologist, but how can we tell someone how to do this when nobody here has built a medical mart or convention center before?  If you have speak up now.

According to Roldo, there has not been much good faith negotiations ,on the part of MMPI , with parcel owners or City, so it seems these figures  would appear questionable.  http://realneo.us/content/mmpi-gets-more-county-spends-600000-more-med-mart-deal

 

"MMPI told Council that it couldn’t deal with land owners at St. Clair and Ontario. They were asking too high a price. These properties were needed to build the medical mart as part of the deal for a new convention center. Falanga said that the price of $17 million was too much. Two representatives of the owners at the meeting said after that MMPI had not negotiated with the owners. One said MMPI had made two telephone calls to his client. Another said MMPI offered $800,000 to one parcel owner and the owner countered with $6-million. But there was no dickering. No counter offer. They just walked away."

 

http://realneo.us/content/mmpi-playing-cleveland-cuyahoga-county

 

Is this something that can be layed completely on MMPIs doorstep.  Is it their responsibility to acquire property?  Even if it is, don't forgt they've been given a budget with which to work.  $450MM will only get you so much.  If it seems that they are not trying maybe it's because whats being offered for the property vs what the owners want is so far apart as to not even warrant the time.  Seriously, I think more money needs to be found to properly fund this Project.

 

I have a problem with the presumption that we're the sole funding source for this project. We've agreed to fund the first $450MM, and MMPI is to pay for additional costs beyond that. Even if this goes way over budget, they're getting a heavily subsidized project. When did it become our responsibility to fund the entire project? MMPI wants to change the game? Fine. Don't want to negotiate with the St. Clair property owners? No problem. Build over Mall D (presuming we can agree on the rendering). But if you're going to change the terms of our original agreement, you should bear some of the costs of those changes.

 

Roldo is right in his article. Did MMPI really think they were going to get a completely free facility to run? Somebody tell me that I'm being unreasonable here, and explain to me why, because I'm just not seeing it.

According to Roldo, there has not been much good faith negotiations ,on the part of MMPI , with parcel owners or City, so it seems these figures  would appear questionable.  http://realneo.us/content/mmpi-gets-more-county-spends-600000-more-med-mart-deal

 

"MMPI told Council that it couldn’t deal with land owners at St. Clair and Ontario. They were asking too high a price. These properties were needed to build the medical mart as part of the deal for a new convention center. Falanga said that the price of $17 million was too much. Two representatives of the owners at the meeting said after that MMPI had not negotiated with the owners. One said MMPI had made two telephone calls to his client. Another said MMPI offered $800,000 to one parcel owner and the owner countered with $6-million. But there was no dickering. No counter offer. They just walked away."

 

http://realneo.us/content/mmpi-playing-cleveland-cuyahoga-county

 

Is this something that can be layed completely on MMPIs doorstep.  Is it their responsibility to acquire property?  Even if it is, don't forgt they've been given a budget with which to work.  $450MM will only get you so much.  If it seems that they are not trying maybe it's because whats being offered for the property vs what the owners want is so far apart as to not even warrant the time.  Seriously, I think more money needs to be found to properly fund this Project.

 

I have a problem with the presumption that we're the sole funding source for this project. We've agreed to fund the first $450MM, and MMPI is to pay for additional costs beyond that. Even if this goes way over budget, they're getting a heavily subsidized project. When did it become our responsibility to fund the entire project? MMPI wants to change the game? Fine. Don't want to negotiate with the St. Clair property owners? No problem. Build over Mall D (presuming we can agree on the rendering). But if you're going to change the terms of our original agreement, you should bear some of the costs of those changes.

Roldo is right in his article. Did MMPI really think they were going to get a completely free facility to run? Somebody tell me that I'm being unreasonable here, and explain to me why, because I'm just not seeing it.

 

Now that post, posses a lot of question that need to be answered.

According to Roldo, there has not been much good faith negotiations ,on the part of MMPI , with parcel owners or City, so it seems these figures  would appear questionable.  http://realneo.us/content/mmpi-gets-more-county-spends-600000-more-med-mart-deal

 

"MMPI told Council that it couldn’t deal with land owners at St. Clair and Ontario. They were asking too high a price. These properties were needed to build the medical mart as part of the deal for a new convention center. Falanga said that the price of $17 million was too much. Two representatives of the owners at the meeting said after that MMPI had not negotiated with the owners. One said MMPI had made two telephone calls to his client. Another said MMPI offered $800,000 to one parcel owner and the owner countered with $6-million. But there was no dickering. No counter offer. They just walked away."

 

http://realneo.us/content/mmpi-playing-cleveland-cuyahoga-county

 

Is this something that can be layed completely on MMPIs doorstep.  Is it their responsibility to acquire property?  Even if it is, don't forgt they've been given a budget with which to work.  $450MM will only get you so much.  If it seems that they are not trying maybe it's because whats being offered for the property vs what the owners want is so far apart as to not even warrant the time.  Seriously, I think more money needs to be found to properly fund this Project.

 

I have a problem with the presumption that we're the sole funding source for this project. We've agreed to fund the first $450MM, and MMPI is to pay for additional costs beyond that. Even if this goes way over budget, they're getting a heavily subsidized project. When did it become our responsibility to fund the entire project? MMPI wants to change the game? Fine. Don't want to negotiate with the St. Clair property owners? No problem. Build over Mall D (presuming we can agree on the rendering). But if you're going to change the terms of our original agreement, you should bear some of the costs of those changes.

 

Roldo is right in his article. Did MMPI really think they were going to get a completely free facility to run? Somebody tell me that I'm being unreasonable here, and explain to me why, because I'm just not seeing it.

 

I beleive that the cost overruns that MMPI would be responsible for are such costs incurred AFTER the beiginning of construction (change orders, etc) NOT increased costs associated with the acquisition of property over and above what was forecast.

Costs of land acquisition was ESTIMATED @17M by GCP. Someone should have ASKED before hand. I can't believe a couple M is holding this whole thing up. They have already eliminated/saved 32M via the dropping of PA and have collected appox. 80M in taxes,( including interest earned). Have they attempted to sell bonds yet? MMPI says they will not use Federal Tax Intensives for Historic Renovations. WHY? The Mall Site was pitched as retaining it's historical significance as a public space NOT as a front yard to the MM. This IS NOT the plan that was sold to the public.

 

Brief PD article quote.  http://blog.cleveland.com/metro/2009/11/architects_oppose_building_on.html

"despite a pledge by commissioners for a transparent process, the changes have not been discussed in public. And the public won't necessarily get a say on the two-dozen alternative plans MMPI has drawn up."

 

Unfortunately, I have lost the author and link, but I assure you it is accurate and I only use it to highlight the some of the arrogance  which seems to have permeated this process.

 

MMPi's budget is the County's taxes. I do not believe they have any intention of putting up a nickel of their own money, although they do plan to keep all profits. We are providing 100% financing and risk. They are providing......"expertise"?

 

 

 

At this point I would like to see UH and CCF put together a proposal of how a joint nonprofit venture between the two hospitals would run a Medical Mart and Convention Center. I mean while its not their area of expertise now, the Cleveland Clinic does put on a lot of medium sized medical events both in their own space and through the nearby hotels. Both hospitals have done a lot of large scale construction and certainly have good contacts and resources in the construction industry. Furthermore, both run regional organizations with tens of thousands of full time employees, medical students, and interns. 

 

Maybe the threat of getting nothing at all would entice MMPI to actually act like they want the project. Who knows? Maybe the CCF/UH proposal would look like the better deal.

At least CCF and UH care about Cleveland. I'm sure they'd at least be willing to stick with the original plans (the St Claire site, raised mall, and possibly even public auditorium If more funding is given.). 

At this point I would like to see UH and CCF put together a proposal of how a joint nonprofit venture between the two hospitals would run a Medical Mart and Convention Center. I mean while its not their area of expertise now, the Cleveland Clinic does put on a lot of medium sized medical events both in their own space and through the nearby hotels. Both hospitals have done a lot of large scale construction and certainly have good contacts and resources in the construction industry. Furthermore, both run regional organizations with tens of thousands of full time employees, medical students, and interns.

 

Maybe the threat of getting nothing at all would entice MMPI to actually act like they want the project. Who knows? Maybe the CCF/UH proposal would look like the better deal.

 

This is EXACTLY why MMPI is SO essential:  THIS IS THEIR EXPERTISE!!!!!  They've been given a budget with which to work.  Yes, there may be cost overruns for which MMPI is required to cover but they are certainly not going to pay tens of millions to pay for something that shoould have been properly funded in the first place.

SOOOO essential??  Indeed, they are the ONLY company in the Country capable of development and managing a Convention Center/Medical Mart. If they are just discovering the budget is inadequate for the concept, I seriously question their development  EXPERTISE. If they are EXPERTS, they should have known what MTC has been saying for a long time.  If they are EXPERTS at Public/Private Partnerships, how is it they don't know how to deal with the public?

SOOOO essential??  Indeed, they are the ONLY company in the Country capable of development and managing a Convention Center/Medical Mart. If they are just discovering the budget is inadequate for the concept, I seriously question their development  EXPERTISE. If they are EXPERTS, they should have known what MTC has been saying for a long time.  If they are EXPERTS at Public/Private Partnerships, how is it they don't know how to deal with the public?

Consider who they are dealing with and the political environment of Cuyahoga county.

Well, I'm not so sure that anyone really knew what developing at this site would cost.  This isn't plopping a Walmart on a piece of farmland, there's a lot of existing conditions that are unique to this site.

MMPI's expertise is in running "fill in the blank" marts, not major development being funded with public monies.