One thing in our favor: Nashville's rendering sure is ugly.  Like, wow.  I wouldn't approve that design for salt storage.  Still, Nashville's "drama" seems somewhat low-grade.  We actually threw out the government that originated our medmart plan.  That lends an air of chaos, don't you think?  Per the MedCity piece, NY already has 11 tenant commitments.  My view is unchanged... we need to start digging.  We still have the advantage, but she ain't like she used to be.

One thing in our favor: Nashville's rendering sure is ugly.  Like, wow.  I wouldn't approve that design for salt storage.  Still, Nashville's "drama" seems somewhat low-grade.  We actually threw out the government that originated our medmart plan.  That lends an air of chaos, don't you think?  Per the MedCity piece, NY already has 11 tenant commitments.  My view is unchanged... we need to start digging.  We still have the advantage, but she ain't like she used to be.

 

11 tenants commitments or signed leases?  It might be semantics but its a viable question.

Who cares how many tenants.

How many sq.ft. are they occupying, what is the term and what is the discount? That is telling of their commitment.  Those are questions worth asking but you will not get answers. "Trade Secrets".

Public ignorance of details and providing funding is the real secret that greases the wheels. That is the public part of this public/private partnership. Forget the renderings. Where are the architectural drawings and plans?? Someone should start asking some real questions instead of rampant speculation as to location and exactly what it is we are funding.

You would not build a deck on your house with the details provided thus far.

Who cares how many tenants.

How many sq.ft. are they occupying, what is the term and what is the discount? That is telling of their commitment.  Those are questions worth asking but you will not get answers. "Trade Secrets".

Public ignorance of details and providing funding is the real secret that greases the wheels. That is the public part of this public/private partnership. Forget the renderings. Where are the architectural drawings and plans?? Someone should start asking some real questions instead of rampant speculation as to location and exactly what it is we are funding.

You would not build a deck on your house with the details provided thus far.

 

That someone is you.

So quiet in this thread...

 

Cuyahoga County to pay for separation of Public Auditorium and convention center, city to foot bill for auditorium upgrades

By Laura Johnston, The Plain Dealer

February 01, 2010, 5:29PM

 

CLEVELAND, Ohio -- The city will spend about $5 million to update Public Auditorium, an octogenarian landmark dinged as rife with safety hazards, as part of the medical mart project proposed for the downtown mall.

 

Full story at: http://www.cleveland.com/cuyahoga-county/index.ssf/2010/02/post_1.html

Really happy to see the city spending the money to update PA. I disagree with the county separating the buildings. I think they should keep them connected so that there is a possibility of using PA in the future for convention events.

 

I would assume the reason that they are separating the two is so that PA doesn't need to be fully brought up to code. I believe if they are fully connected then PA would need to be brought up to the same codes as the new CC. My high school had a similar situation when they built a new athletic facility so they only connected the two via a breezeway so the entire school wouldn't need to be updated to code.

This is a bad idea.  We are going backwards.  There must be some other solution.  Couldn't the county just pay MMPI something for the PA share of the utilities? Saving the $ from deconstructing the connection and rebuilding the facade would pay for a lot of electricity.

This is a lot of time and money being wasted on PA.  I'm still waiting to hear a plausible future use for it.  I still think it's obsolete and needs to come down, to make way for something more likely to see daily use at such an important address.  And it's not like PA was rendered obsolete by malls in the suburbs, it was rendered obsolete by multiple downtown and in-city venues.  It's a giant cinderblock where there ought to be skyscrapers.  Let it go.

I still think it's obsolete and needs to come down

 

I still think it's obsolete and needs to come down

 

I couldn't disagree more.  It's a historic landmark!  It's still a large beautiful space that can be repurposed for a 21st century use.  I'm confident that they'll find a new use for it, and destroying the link to the CC is very short sighted IMO.

Fair enough, but more importantly: 

 

Congrats to Hootenany for having the "Comment of the Day" over on the PD site's 3-C thread!

Fair enough, but more importantly:

 

Congrats to Hootenany for having the "Comment of the Day" over on the PD site's 3-C thread!

 

Why thank you!  Strangely enough, that was my first ever post on cleveland.bomb

Public auditorium should come down? That's crazy--its a beautiful structure with a unique theaters/venues. Have you ever been inside? That's the same talk that almost put the wrecking ball to the theaters at Playhouse Square--and look at them today.

A MONUMENT CONCEIVED AS A TRIBUTE TO THE IDEALS OF CLEVELAND BUILDED BY HER CITIZENS AND DEDICATED TO SOCIAL PROGRESS INDUSTRIAL ACHIEVEMENT AND CIVIC INTEREST PATRIOTISM PROGRESS CULTURE

 

Personally, I never cared much for a re-purposing of our "monument" even if it is seldom used now.

Random thoughts

 

^Well, MMPI keeps using Millenium Park as a reference for what can be done.  I worked there a lot during the construction, and the main draws are the bean, the Park Grill, and the band shell and the Crown fountain

 

The Park Grill is especially busy in summer

 

Maybe part of Public Hall can renovated as a restaurant, and a portion of Mall B can be used as a large patio/beer garden in the summer.  In the winter, like MP, the beer garden could be converted to a larger ice rink than is currently on PS.

 

With proper scheduling of events, like Friday after work concerts, and the conventions, it could be a hub of activity.  Its not too far away from E.4th and W. 6th entertainment districs.

 

While I am at it, maybe an iconic sculpture (free stamp?) can be moved to Mall C, since some of the lake views will be blocked from the street level, if you walk up to the sculpture, you will see all of the lake views.

 

Our band shell could be music hall.  It is indoors, but that could just help the area be a 12 month draw.

 

I heard on the radio this morning that the CC/MM plan was getting federal stimulus money.  Could have been a reporting mix-up with the Federal Bldg story.  Anyone know if this is true and how much might be added to the $425 mill currently budgeted for the project?

In the winter, like MP, the beer garden could be converted to a larger ice rink than is currently on PS.

 

Punch - Not sure if you haven't been in town lately, but there hasn't been an ice rink on PS for at least 5 years now and possibly more.

 

I do think your ideas about creative uses & programming have some merit though.

This is a lot of time and money being wasted on PA.  I'm still waiting to hear a plausible future use for it.  I still think it's obsolete and needs to come down, to make way for something more likely to see daily use at such an important address.  And it's not like PA was rendered obsolete by malls in the suburbs, it was rendered obsolete by multiple downtown and in-city venues.  It's a giant cinderblock where there ought to be skyscrapers.  Let it go.

 

I beg to differ.  It is actually four beautiful venues under one roof.  A treasure.  A piece of history. 

 

Does Cleveland have too many venues?  Maybe. But if the city offers up the right rent deal I'm sure there will be events at Public Hall once more.

Public auditorium should come down? That's crazy--its a beautiful structure with a unique theaters/venues. Have you ever been inside? That's the same talk that almost put the wrecking ball to the theaters at Playhouse Square--and look at them today.

 

I have been inside.  The place managed to be dreary during an Obama rally.

 

This is different from PHS.  Those buildings interact with the street at all hours of the day.  PA is obsolete for its intended purpose, and it's not set up for any alternative or secondary uses in the way the PHS buildings are.  No ground level retail or restaurant space, no offices above... just an entire block of the city's core rendered lifeless.  Even if it's used occasionally for shows, it's still a lifeless monolith the rest of the time.  Is that true of HoB?  No.  PHS?  No.  CSU convo center?  OK, kind of.  But that's not in the middle of downtown.

 

The fact that it's adjacent to the similarly lifeless mall is no help.  That is the deadest area of downtown, and it will continue as such until something is built there that we can actually use.  MM/CC and NCTC would be steps in that direction.  But will either of those developments put people on the mall or put people in and around PA?  No.  And if PA were regularly used for shows, it would only take business away from other downtown venues.

 

I say it's time to move on from the mall plan.  How many centuries of evidence do we need to realize that hollowing out our downtown was a bad idea?  Let's have people get off the train at NCTC, or emerge from a convention at MM/CC, and find themselves clearly in the middle of our downtown, right where the action is-- instead we've got barren grassland, deserted buildings that cover entire blocks, and no people.

^I actually agree with you to some extent.  PA has awful street presence on East 6th.  Not sure I would vote to knock it down though.

 

Anyway, progress on the MM property acquisition- the County has approved an option to purchase the office bldg and garage

http://www.cleveland.com/cuyahoga-county/index.ssf/2010/02/cuyahoga_county_approves_option_to_buy_downtown_land_for_medical_mart.html

 

I'm looking forward to this project moving ahead so we can start arguing about the designs already. 

man.  people complain about the "street presence" of a building like public hall... and yet there were so many who wanted an above ground convention center.  What type of street presence do people think those things have... :lol:

man. people complain about the "street presence" of a building like public hall... and yet there were so many who wanted an above ground convention center. What type of street presence do people think those things have... :lol:

 

For sure. Having our CC mostly underground will be one of the best things about it, IMHO.  I don't hate PA.  It's a million times better than the crappy CSU arena- oh to have that one back to design right.  Or to not build at all (CSU basketball in PA would be sweet).

 

In the winter, like MP, the beer garden could be converted to a larger ice rink than is currently on PS.

 

Punch - Not sure if you haven't been in town lately, but there hasn't been an ice rink on PS for at least 5 years now and possibly more

I do think your ideas about creative uses & programming have some merit though.

 

Yeah, never was one for ice skating, so I have and haven't missed it.

 

^My Dad played basketball for CSU back in the 70s when they played in PA.  He said it was a pretty terrible place to play basketball mostly because there were no court level seats.  Of course this could have been corrected with a rennovation to include removable seating that stretched to the court, but CSU and the city of Cleveland had other ideas.

^Interesting; I actually didn't know CSU ever had played BB there.  And yeah, I can see how the current configuration wouldn't be ideal for games,  but it does seem like it could be fixed pretty easily with removable seating.

 

Here's a PD photo of the interior in case anyone is having trouble picturing it:

http://blog.cleveland.com/metro/2009/01/large_Public%20Hall.jpg

 

EDIT: It's a weird arrangement in there with the stage and the arena seating.  I wonder if over the years there have been proposals to replace the tiered seating the mezzanines (with those giant windows visible on the outside facades) and to turn the into more of a giant ball room/event space.  Would seem to be a useful space for the convention center.  But I know nothing of convention planning, so maybe not.

 

I think that picture is of Public Hall.  That's where the Obama event was and probably the recent RRHOF show too.  But there is also a smaller more ornate venue in there too, isn't there?  Someone above said there's actually 4 venues in that building. 

 

All the same, it's about time we builded something new there.  Historical preservation is very important... but if a line must be drawn, I would draw it based on the structure's future potential.  Most commercial, residential, and mixed-use buildings would easily pass this test.  Single-purpose structures would have a more difficult time of it, especially if they consume important real estate for which a coherent plan exists.  I can't say we have a coherent plan yet for the site of PA.  But if we're going to build a fancy hotel to go with the MM/CC, that is exactly where I'd put it.

I think that picture is of Public Hall.  That's where the Obama event was and probably the recent RRHOF show too.  But there is also a smaller more ornate venue in there too, isn't there?  Someone above said there's actually 4 venues in that building. 

 

You're probably thinking of the Little Theater:

 

http://realneo.us/blog/susan-miller/name-this-theater-in-cleveland

Music Hall is the smaller theater and Public Hall is the larger.

^Right.  Public Hall is the giant arena space (10,000 seats if you put seats on the floor, I think); Music Hall (3,000 seats) is on the other side of Public Hall's stage (they share the stage).  And then there's the Little Theater (600 seats) somewhere else in there (in the basement?).  And all together they make up Public Auditorium? 

 

But after a long history of hosting the Met, rock concerts and conventions, seems like booking is in the toilet for the whole complex.

 

Here's a great site with some photos of the venues: http://groupplan.dhellison.com/buildings.php?ss=ConventionCtrPhotos

 

This town is so over-venued.

What a beautiful structure, though... there has to be some type of use for it in the future.

^I think people joked about this before, but you could have put a very class casino in Public Hall...which might have meant a second life for the other venues in there... 

 

Or an Aquarium?

 

Parking garage?  Kidding.

PA would make a great casino venue, that's perfect.  But there's no way Gilbert moves the casino out of his own little corner.  I'm really surprised that so many people are so intent on preserving the mall and auditorium.  To me, the dead zone they create far outweighs any historic or architectural value, even though I'm a fiend for stuff like that.  It's just such a large and impenetrable dead zone.

I thought the entire complex was referred to as "Public Hall", the main room being "Public Auditorium" with smaller venues in "Music Hall" and "the Little Theatre"

 

I also thought the RRHOF concert was held in Music Hall.  The Obama event (during the primaries) was definitely held in the Auditorium... or whatever it is formerly known as.

^Yeah, you might be right.  I don't really know which is which between PH and PA.

 

I'm really surprised that so many people are so intent on preserving the mall and auditorium. To me, the dead zone they create far outweighs any historic or architectural value, even though I'm a fiend for stuff like that. It's just such a large and impenetrable dead zone.

 

I'm not really surprised how people feel about it, but I agree with you that the Mall shouldn't be seen as a sacred cow.  I think the Group Plan is way overrated.  It's not just ridiculously pompous ad oversized for municipal/county government, but it's goofy too; none of the public buildings actually face the Mall! No wonder it's so terribly underused.  I actually don't care much that Mall B will be more elevated.  I just hope it's designed well and programmed creatively and that access from St. Claire and Lakeside is easy and attractive.  Mall C being elevated is a little scarier though, IMHO.

 

I thought the entire complex was referred to as "Public Hall", the main room being "Public Auditorium" with smaller venues in "Music Hall" and "the Little Theatre"

 

I also thought the RRHOF concert was held in Music Hall.  The Obama event (during the primaries) was definitely held in the Auditorium... or whatever it is formerly known as.

 

I believe Public Hall and Public Auditorium are used interchangebly.  The Music Hall is about 3,000 seats and shares the stage with Public Hall, facing the opposite direction.  The Little Theater is next door to that, and if I'm not mistaken there is another even smaller space either upstairs or downstairs, but it's been years since I've been in there.

 

I find it hard to comprehend that there are people in Cleveland who would even consider getting rid of these fantastic venues or the malls, which are true to the original designs and grand open spaces of the city planners. 

 

And why on earth would we build another hotel when there is a perfrectly good Marriott and Crowne Plaza across the street that suffer from horrendous occupancy levels already.  Hopefully someday the demand would be there, but for now let's deal with what we have.

All this talk about under use.  Does anybody remember back to the Hana Fountain days? Whenever the weather was reasonably OK starting in April and going though October the mall was packed with people at lunch.  The fountains were beautiful and somewhat unique too.  public auditorium was great for the circus, ice capades, etc.  Music Hall was great for big operas like Hansel and Gretel that you would take kids to.  I don't think there are really comparable venues today (playhouse square too small, the Jake too big).  Would it really be so hard to bring these things back?

I find it hard to comprehend that there are people in Cleveland who would even consider getting rid of these fantastic venues or the malls, which are true to the original designs and grand open spaces of the city planners. 

 

And why on earth would we build another hotel when there is a perfrectly good Marriott and Crowne Plaza across the street that suffer from horrendous occupancy levels already.  Hopefully someday the demand would be there, but for now let's deal with what we have.

 

Re: hotels, apparently these are not "perfectly good" for all desired uses.  My understanding from upthread is that we don't have enough CONTIGUOUS hi-end rooms to accomodate the kind of bookings we want.  These large groups simply can't come here, because regardless of how many open rooms we have total, we don't have one single place that's big enough.

 

Re: grand spaces, it wasn't always like this.  Burnham's "group plan" was controversial from its conception, because it violates the true original plan for downtown... which was to have maximum density revolve around the comparative openness of Public Square. 

 

We literally ripped down the our central urban core... which had flouished for over a century... and we replaced it with a new century of sterility and isolation.  For reasons already discussed, that hasn't worked out very well.  How can this "group plan" be so much more historical and worthy of preservation than the 1796 plan?  I'm suggesting we refocus on the 1796 plan, the one Burnham basically trashed.

 

And if these barren lawns still contained fountains and people eating lunch, my view of their success would probably improve.

In all fairness, the 1796 plan was for a village of 3,500 people, mostly farmers working acreage in the surrounding countryside past what would now be E. 9th St.

I don't know about anyone else, but I was intrigued by the proposal for the Mall that was made by the third-place group from the NCTC design competition:

 

http://www.clevelandcompetition.com/Gallery/2009%20CDC%20Winning%20Submissions/09-Cleveland%20Design%20Competition%20-%2009377%20-%2002.jpg

 

Obviously it would depend upon what kind and how much retail could be lured to the pedestrian area, but it's at least an interesting concept to have it go below the level of the mall rather than above.  Plus it seems like it could still be possible at a later date even if all MMPI does is slap a roof on the CC and throw some dirt back on top after they're done remodeling it.

If I'm reading their renderings right, then I don't think that design is actually possible.  It would either require us to dig out the current tub the CC is built on, or do with substantially lower ceilings than are required.  It also cuts the Mall's greenspace itself up into a number of unusable, elevated pieces.  I like the idea of the bridge over the tracks with the retail, however.  If they could integrate that idea with the requirements of the new CC, then it could be a winner.

Can we agree to shelve conversations about taking public spaces away for development until the surface paking lots downtown have been developed.

 

(I like mall, and the square, for the record)

what's the latest status on the project? when should we expect shovels in the ground? because as you can tell im ready for this thing to get going!!!

If I'm reading their renderings right, then I don't think that design is actually possible. It would either require us to dig out the current tub the CC is built on, or do with substantially lower ceilings than are required. It also cuts the Mall's greenspace itself up into a number of unusable, elevated pieces. I like the idea of the bridge over the tracks with the retail, however. If they could integrate that idea with the requirements of the new CC, then it could be a winner.

 

I see what you're saying.  From what it sounds like, the roof of the new CC will actually be above street level (if it's not already).  I wouldn't mind seeing some kind of retail component added one way or another without compromising the vistas too much.

In all fairness, the 1796 plan was for a village of 3,500 people, mostly farmers working acreage in the surrounding countryside past what would now be E. 9th St.

 

Quite so. 

 

I just find it humorous that we're so intent on historically preserving something that itself was considered an affront to the city's history.  Not by everyone, of course, but there was indeed a public controversy along these lines.  For example, the magnificent Case Block, aka old city hall, was torn down for Burham's library.  And it wasn't even that old at the time.  Also humorous to me is our need to preserve a lake vista that was never meant to be there, per the Group Plan.

 

Maybe I'm that philistine who looks at a painting of a red dot and fails to realize that the dot represents Harry Truman and the blank canvas around it represents both the tragedy and the fellowship of mortal man.  So be it.  In my view, a vacant lot represents opportunity rather than completion.  And what we're talking about here is a vacant lot that gets mowed.  I might even suggest, given its central location and its chilling effect on street activity, that the mall is one of the reasons those parking lots aren't developed yet. 

Would Public Auditorium make a good natatorium/racquet club?  Free passes to convention goers staying in downtown hotels. The Waterfront Line could be continued Southward from the proposed Northcoast Transit Center under East Mall Drive to a station that connects the new convention ctr under the malls to the natatorium.  Then continue the waterfront line to Superior Ave, up to street level on Superior Ave (heading East) to E17th St, South on E17th to Prospect and back to Tower City.  Most major downtown attractions and sports facilities, as well as, many hotels and parking garages would then be connected.

PA would make a great casino venue, that's perfect.  But there's no way Gilbert moves the casino out of his own little corner.  I'm really surprised that so many people are so intent on preserving the mall and auditorium.  To me, the dead zone they create far outweighs any historic or architectural value, even though I'm a fiend for stuff like that.  It's just such a large and impenetrable dead zone.

 

I don't see why the mall has to be picked on so much. The Mall may be a deadzone from a certain point of view, (lacking the intended rail station) but at least it does not look bad..... and is one place that is a public space that does not feel unwelcoming and dirty like Public Scare. I actually think it is really impressive to be facing the city looking south from the end of the mall at the north...many of the buildings that would look insignifigant in larger cities actually look iconic there as they have a chance to stand alone with each boasting its individual architectural character. In fact, I would rather take a visitor who I was trying to give an impression that our city is clean.... to the end of the mall first, before going to Public Square in its current format/condition. I have done this and many people are actually impressed with the mall and its pedestrian potential.

 

There is plenty of other room for needed density downtown..and I would hate to see this space become blind clutter just because we think adding more big buildings looks nice.

 

If anyone could, I suggest looking at St. Martin Square in Sydney. Similar to the design of the mall...just bigger (longer) and with the train stations, it is a place for year 'round activity and festivals that more than brings plenty of activity to the space. It is lively and beautiful. We sort of have a mini one with this mall. Maybe we should reign back a bit from licking our chops for that space and consider that if it isn't broke...don't fix it.. Just enhance it.

 

There are many other areas in the city that can also be construed a dead zone that look crappy and could use some of the activitiy and redevelopment of which is being talked about. Still, we want to continue to add more retail-like space but cannot fill what we already have---much of which can be adequate for adaptive re-use for smaller businesses like functional shops or restaurants serving needs of residents and visitors. So then, maybe it is wiser to focus on steering some redevelopment of obvious empty spaces like the glut of parking lots we have...and any area in need of revitilization.

 

I actually think PA can be used for specific shows...but maybe we are 'over-venued' At least PA has stood the test of time, even if it not in the best of shape. I can bet for certain that a newly constructed venue would look a whole lot worse in that same amount of time than would a PA. 

 

County plans to use stimulus bonds for Medical Mart

 

(Cleveland) - Cuyahoga County will use all of its $64.1 million Recovery Zone Facility Bond allocation to defray part of the estimated $425 million cost to be incurred on the Medical Mart/Convention Center project.

 

The allocation permits the County to issue Recovery Zone bonds at interest rates 25-30% lower than market rates, which will help the county and its taxpayers save money.

 

"The county's bond rating, set by independent agencies, is the second best in Ohio,” said Matthew Rubino, interim director of the County Office of Budget and Management. “A good rating translates into lower interest rates when the county needs to borrow, and the Recovery Zone bonds help us even more

 

http://www.wtam.com/cc-common/news/sections/newsarticle.html?feed=122520&article=6736823

Would Public Auditorium make a good natatorium/racquet club? Free passes to convention goers staying in downtown hotels. The Waterfront Line could be continued Southward from the proposed Northcoast Transit Center under East Mall Drive to a station that connects the new convention ctr under the malls to the natatorium. Then continue the waterfront line to Superior Ave, up to street level on Superior Ave (heading East) to E17th St, South on E17th to Prospect and back to Tower City. Most major downtown attractions and sports facilities, as well as, many hotels and parking garages would then be connected.

 

Good idea... Let's create some tennis courts, promote physical fitness in our city, and have tournaments there. Tearing down and building new all the time, cannot always be conducive to the sustainablity efforts cities are trying to achieve.

^I like the natatorium/racquet club.  That's a unique idea.  Not sure that it would use the entire space, but an interesting idea.

 

As for the WFL re-routing... not a fan.  The NCTC would provide access to the CC and proposed natatorium just fine.  The money would be better spent simply extending the end of the WFL up and over the RR tracks to E17th and then continuing to TC completing the downtown loop.

I can't believe that we would even have a discussion about tearing down Public Auditorium or filling the malls, given the sheer volume of open space we have downtown ... it seems we are collectively hoping to program large swaths of the Flats (both sides), the Port Authority land, parking lots along East 12th, Superior and throughout the Warehouse District, vacant storefronts on Euclid ... Not to mention the area along Euclid from East 9th to East 12th that could accommodate thousands of residents and employees if properly activated. I just don't see how we could justify tearing down a historic gem given the sheer volume of opportunity to fill existing buildings or parking lots within a pretty small radius.

 

Meanwhile, can anyone explain to me what is going on with the stimulus bonds? A good portion of that article led me to believe that they would be used to pay down the debt faster and at a better rate, but there also seemed to be some indication (though not blatant) that it would ultimately expand the sales tax revenue available for the project. Does that mean that if they pay the bonds down earlier, they will have additional revenue on the backend before the tax would sunset? Sorry, finances hurt my head :)