A little bit of Nashville trying to say why it's better:

 

http://www.medcitynews.com/2010/09/why-cleveland-doesnt-rock-qa-with-nashville-medical-mart-ceo/

 

PR chatter.

 

.......In contrast, Nashville must find private financing, so it must lease about 65 percent of its showroom space to secure a loan. So far, though, it’s only publicly announced two tenants — and none since April

 

 

NEXT!

 

Indeed.  That's 650,000 sq ft.  And in this economic environment.....

Q: Do you think it makes sense to build a medical mart with just 100,000 square feet of showroom space?

 

We’ve never been able to make that proforma work because the return doesn’t offset the costs of creating traffic and drawing buyers to the building. If you start at 100,000 square feet and take out space for meeting rooms, bathrooms and hallways, for example, you’ll get to about 80,000 square feet. It’s hard to establish scale in that amount of space.

 

Good thing our meeting rooms, etc won't be included in our 100,000 feet of showroom space!

^They don't even know their competition...

Fancy extras currently not in plans for medical mart and convention center in downtown Cleveland

Published: Thursday, September 23, 2010, 10:00 AM

  Laura Johnston, The Plain Dealer

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An aerial view shows the proposed convention center at night, with large areas of glass looking north from the ballroom beneath the north end of Mall C, and a new entrance looking north from the south side of Mall B.

CLEVELAND, Ohio — Plans for Cuyahoga County's $425 million medical mart and convention center complex skip the big-deal extras Clevelanders may have envisioned.

 

And structural designs may even exclude such ideas forever -- meaning no mammoth sculptures or fountains to mimic Chicago's Millennium Park.

"Obviously if you want to do something dramatic, structurally dramatic, to translate it into a heavy point load in a specific area, you have to know where that's going to be, and you have to plan for it," said Jeff Appelbaum, the county's pointman for the $425 million, taxpayer-financed project. "You can only design and build this one time, the first time."

 

http://www.cleveland.com/cuyahoga-county/index.ssf/2010/09/millennium_park-like_designs_not_in_the_plans_for_downtown_mall.html

^huh?  so dates and deadlines are being pushed back again??

 

For some reason I am very frustrated when I read this article, and not because Cleveland will not get it's "bean."

 

 

 

 

From the article:

 

The Group Plan Commission chosen by Mayor Frank Jackson in June is beginning to imagine how to transform the mall and other downtown spaces into vibrant gathering spots. They won't submit a report until late December or early January.

 

But any changes to the design for the medical mart or convention center must be settled by early November, Appelbaum said.

 

Well.... they will indeed need to plan for heavy load on the Mall, right?  What happens the next time a crowd of a few thousand gather for a rally or something of that nature?

I told you the timing for this commission was too late to have bearing on this project (since many of the decisions made need to be made before construction)!!!!

 

They really need to just extend the tax a bit so that we dont have a piece of crap building and public space.  Frustrating yes, since you only have one chance to do this right.

Remember MMPI has commissioned the landscape architect who did Millenium Park to help design the malls.  Right now, they don't have the funding for a lot of things, but they can still plan for them.

 

3231 had it right, non-story

Well.... they will indeed need to plan for heavy load on the Mall, right?  What happens the next time a crowd of a few thousand gather for a rally or something of that nature?

 

From the article: "But the Group Plan Commission hopes to work more with designers LMN and GGN, which have planned the convention center roof to withstand its current weight load, including the soil, grass and as many people as can stand there."

^Hmmm, and that same roof used to support a big fountain too...

^Hmmm, and that same roof used to support a big fountain too...

 

I see where you're going but the fountains support (i think this was mentioned some where else) support spanned the entire mall so the weight was evenly distributed as the fountains were raised off the top of the mall.  Granted they leaked so they were flawed.

 

This new design raised the roof, so I dont think we can compare the old fountains to a new design.

^The new design also eliminates many of the pillars.

I assume the fountain on Mall A stays?  Is it that the CC does not extend under Mall A or is it just maintenance wings below there?

^The fountain on Mall A stays, inasmuch as the CC doesn't extend that far and there is already something beneath it (parking for the Marriott, I believe).

I assume the fountain on Mall A stays?  Is it that the CC does not extend under Mall A or is it just maintenance wings below there?

 

IIRC, the CC only extends to the northern portion of mall A.  But not under the fountain itself.  There some maintenance and connections to parking.

Medical mart and convention center to cost $40 million more than expected

 

http://www.cleveland.com/cuyahoga-county/index.ssf/2010/09/medical_mart_and_convention_center_to_cost_40_million_more_than_expected.html

 

-MMPI will pay $8.5MM, the rest will come from a contingency fund that county officials had not disclosed before this week

-The extra costs are for an larger ballroom

-meeting space is cut

 

Some interesting nuggets

-The IX center is planned to stay open, for large events like the auto show

- Commissioners are going to vote to raise the county bed tax from 5.5% to 6.5%, and reduce the amount given to the CVB by $1MM a year, all to fund operations of the new CC.

(this last thing was, in my opinion, the last major potential road block.  It looks like it wound up being an old fashioned compromise)

"A contingency fund that county officials had not disclosed before this week"

 

Oh good grief...

"A contingency fund that county officials had not disclosed before this week"

 

Oh good grief...

 

Don't worry it was Jimmy Dimora's petty cash fund for takeout food. he is not going to be needing that anymore....

Enjoy beating a dead horse? That is a different forum. A juvenile attempt at humor better left on .bomb.

Take it easy, it's a little joke.

 

Where did the $50M reserve fund get its funding? If it was funded by the sales tax increase I think we had a right to know of its existence. The county has enough credibility issues. They can't be squirreling away funds for unspecified purposes like this. What would have happened to the funds if they weren't used for this? Also, if this was a reserve fund to cover cost overruns once the construction began, what happens now if those same overruns occur? We've blown our reserve up front.

 

I'm not saying it wasn't wise for them to have a reserve account. I am saying that it wasn't wise for them to hide it, and to not have a specific plan in place for its use that was publicly disclosed.

Now that I am thinking about it, I am sure there was always a small percent contingency.  Im also sure the PD presented it in the most scanallous way possible.

I would have presumed there would be. Every good construction budget has contingency reserves. I just hope that they still have some set aside within the $425MM, otherwise I can see a situation 2 years from now where we're 85% complete, but 100% funded. Then what?

A 10% contingency fund??? Scandalous!  Outrageous! The PeeDee, again, detects nefarious forces at work by it's crack team of reporters, covering the MM/Convention Center. I am going to run out and buy a copy, right now.

A 10% contingency fund??? Scandalous! Outrageous! The PeeDee, again, detects nefarious forces at work by it's crack team of reporters, covering the MM/Convention Center. I am going to run out and buy a copy, right now.

 

Do you not see the issue here? It's not having the contingency that's an issue. It's that it magically appeared suddenly when they needed it. A 10% contingency is reasonable, so why wasn't it disclosed up front? This whole project is legit, but the commissioners insistence on doing everything undercover gives the impression that something isn't above board.

 

Everything about this transaction should be publicly disclosed. I don't know why that's so difficult for them to understand.

^Certainly not the case here with the contingency fund, but it is quite possible that "everything about this transaction" should not, in fact can not, be publicly disclosed due to trade secrets and other privileged information.

Actually, 10% is very high for a contingency reserve..typically these funds only represent 3% at most!

Do you not see the issue here? It's not having the contingency that's an issue. It's that it magically appeared suddenly when they needed it. A 10% contingency is reasonable, so why wasn't it disclosed up front? This whole project is legit, but the commissioners insistence on doing everything undercover gives the impression that something isn't above board.

 

Everything about this transaction should be publicly disclosed. I don't know why that's so difficult for them to understand.

 

You're assuming that the PD didn't miss the contingency fund the first time around. And if I'm a public agency, I wouldn't want to advertise that a 10% contingency fund exists. Had prospective bidders known that the fund exists, their bids would probably have come in even higher.

Bah, you're all against me.

 

Ok, so I'll concede the PD may have missed it, but I doubt it given how much scrutiny they've given so far.

 

On a straight up commercial building construction I'd say 5% contingency would be appropriate, but given the complexity of this construction I'd say 10% was probably more appropriate.

 

My bigger question remains unanswered, though. If that was, in fact ,the contingency reserve, what is the contingency reserve going forward?

once the contract is signed, its MMPIs worry, not the county

The original contingency fund was $50 million.  The added costs amount to $40 million.  MMPI is going to kick in $8.5 million of that if I read the article correctly.  That leaves $17.5 million in the contingency fund by my calculations.... just under 4% of the total project cost and very close to lewarctj's comment of what should be the top end of such funds.

 

And if I'm a public agency, I wouldn't want to advertise that a 10% contingency fund exists. Had prospective bidders known that the fund exists, their bids would probably have come in even higher.

 

Great point.

Am I wrong in thinking that a contingency fund is supposed to be used for unforeseen costs necessary to realize a project (usually because of unknown problems arising during the construction phase), not for changing the scope of that project?  It doesn't seem to me that enlarging the ballroom is the sort of thing that should be considered a contingency.

A 10% contingency would not be out of the question for this project, or any project for that matter, when land must be bought for the project.  When word gets out that a large project is being pushed, land prices go up pretty quickly depending on the use.  If there is a tight timeline to work with (as is the case with this project), you can see land prices shoot up 40%-50%.

 

But remember, this project is, what- 6 years old now, and the county was originally in negotiations with Forest City. IMAGINE what FC would be trying to do to the county at this point... And for those of us who didn't forget that FC was involved up until maybe two years ago, let's not act as if FC wouldn't want the extra $50 million and then some. 

 

I'm glad that the county had a contingency fund... look at it this way- this project WILL happen.  And yes, it's beyond the budgeted $425 million, but as was stated earlier- cost overruns are to be covered by MMPI.  This may be to keep the ball rolling, but I doubt the county will be putting any other funds towards this project from the taxpayer's pocket.

I've done a lot of construction/remodel. NONE of it came in on budget. It ALWAYS costs more then you think. Just like water is wet and fire is hot, it is in it's very nature that construction dollars have a tendency to shrink. To not have a contingency fund/plan would be irresponsible. I see a great future for our town. Ten years from now our only regret will be taking radiation treatment to kill the persistent cough of petty corruption. Oh yeah, we'll still have the cough.  In the future, it will be almost impossible to change the direction of government due to the inability to replace more then a couple County Council members in a given election cycle. Sorry about the digression of topic.

I've done a lot of construction/remodel. NONE of it came in on budget. It ALWAYS costs more then you think. Just like water is wet and fire is hot, it is in it's very nature that construction dollars have a tendency to shrink. To not have a contingency fund/plan would be irresponsible. I see a great future for our town. Ten years from now our only regret will be taking radiation treatment to kill the persistent cough of petty corruption. Oh yeah, we'll still have the cough. In the future, it will be almost impossible to change the direction of government due to the inability to replace more then a couple County Council members in a given election cycle. Sorry about the digression of topic.

 

The existence of the contingency fund isn't the issue.  It's the fact that it's being virtually exhausted before a shovel even hits the ground.  Contingency funds exist to cover unexpected cost overruns during the course of construction; they're not meant to cover substantive design revisions pre-construction.  Just another example of the poor planning that went into this.

I've done a lot of construction/remodel. NONE of it came in on budget. It ALWAYS costs more then you think. Just like water is wet and fire is hot, it is in it's very nature that construction dollars have a tendency to shrink. To not have a contingency fund/plan would be irresponsible. I see a great future for our town. Ten years from now our only regret will be taking radiation treatment to kill the persistent cough of petty corruption. Oh yeah, we'll still have the cough. In the future, it will be almost impossible to change the direction of government due to the inability to replace more then a couple County Council members in a given election cycle. Sorry about the digression of topic.

 

The existence of the contingency fund isn't the issue. It's the fact that it's being virtually exhausted before a shovel even hits the ground. Contingency funds exist to cover unexpected cost overruns during the course of construction; they're not meant to cover substantive design revisions pre-construction. Just another example of the poor planning that went into this.

 

I wouldn't really call it poor planning in as much as the $435,000,000 cap placed by the County was simply trying to do it on the cheap.  This figure is low when compared to other recent facilities. 

But what happens when there are the inevitable construction-related cost overruns, and no contingency fund to look to?  Who's picking up the cost?  No doubt the county will look to the taxpayer.

 

I agree that the county undoubtedly low-balled the total cost of this project.  But the fact remains that the commissioners sold this to the public based on the $435 million number.  Now it's suddenly tens of millions more, with virtually no contingency fund left.  The total lack of transparency on this project is shocking, as is the county's profligacy with taxpayer money.

 

Full disclosure -- I'm a supporter of the project; just shocked at the incompetence of the county. 

Actually, it looks like there is significantly more in reserve, even with the most conservative of revenue projections...

 

How does Cuyahoga County reach the figure of $490 million for the medical mart and convention center?

Published: Wednesday, September 29, 2010, 7:59 AM

Laura Johnston, The Plain Dealer 

 

CLEVELAND, Ohio -- So how did Cuyahoga County come up with a figure of $490 million for building a downtown medical mart and convention center?

 

Well, for one thing, analysts assume you won't be buying much in the next two decades. From cars to Cavs jerseys, they figure, sales will stagnate at 2010 levels until 2027 -- a slump experts say hasn't happened before. And sales taxes are paying for the project.

 

Commissioners in 2007 imposed a 20-year, quarter-cent sales tax hike to pay for a four-story showplace for medical technology and a connected, L-shaped convention center beneath Malls B and C in downtown Cleveland...

 

http://www.cleveland.com/cuyahoga-county/index.ssf/2010/09/how_do_you_get_490_million_for_the_medical_mart.html

But what happens when there are the inevitable construction-related cost overruns, and no contingency fund to look to?  Who's picking up the cost?  No doubt the county will look to the taxpayer.

 

I agree that the county undoubtedly low-balled the total cost of this project.  But the fact remains that the commissioners sold this to the public based on the $435 million number.  Now it's suddenly tens of millions more, with virtually no contingency fund left.  The total lack of transparency on this project is shocking, as is the county's profligacy with taxpayer money.

 

Full disclosure -- I'm a supporter of the project; just shocked at the incompetence of the county. 

 

 

Here is the agreement that MMPI and the county spelled out months ago.  In it is says that after the initial agreement on the price, MMPI will be the construction manager and the county will fund construction up to that amount.  ANY COST OVERRUNS ARE THE RESPONSIBILITYOF MMPI!

 

http://bocc.cuyahogacounty.us/pdf_bocc/en-US/MedMartMOU.pdf

 

If construction cost overruns are the responsibility of MMPI, what was the purpose of the contingency fund?  Only to cover design issues pre-construction? 

The contingency fund can be used for site aquisition costs, if lower tax revenues than expected come in, etc.

 

 

 

 

EDIT: the original posting was not complete, sorry

Now this is the sort of stay-away-from-the-ledge, dont-jump discussion I like from Urban Ohio and which I reject from the forum-that-shall-not-be-named.

But what happens when there are the inevitable construction-related cost overruns, and no contingency fund to look to?  Who's picking up the cost?  No doubt the county will look to the taxpayer.

 

I agree that the county undoubtedly low-balled the total cost of this project.  But the fact remains that the commissioners sold this to the public based on the $435 million number.  Now it's suddenly tens of millions more, with virtually no contingency fund left.  The total lack of transparency on this project is shocking, as is the county's profligacy with taxpayer money.

 

Full disclosure -- I'm a supporter of the project; just shocked at the incompetence of the county. 

 

 

Here is the agreement that MMPI and the county spelled out months ago.  In it is says that after the initial agreement on the price, MMPI will be the construction manager and the county will fund construction up to that amount.  ANY COST OVERRUNS ARE THE RESPONSIBILITYOF MMPI!

 

http://bocc.cuyahogacounty.us/pdf_bocc/en-US/MedMartMOU.pdf

 

Sadly most people who bash the project don't even know this.

 

fwiw, an article was posted this morning about the Cuyahoga County executive candidates responses to the price hike:

 

http://blog.cleveland.com/metro/2010/09/cuyahoga_county_executive_cand.html

 

But what happens when there are the inevitable construction-related cost overruns, and no contingency fund to look to? Who's picking up the cost? No doubt the county will look to the taxpayer.

 

I agree that the county undoubtedly low-balled the total cost of this project. But the fact remains that the commissioners sold this to the public based on the $435 million number. Now it's suddenly tens of millions more, with virtually no contingency fund left. The total lack of transparency on this project is shocking, as is the county's profligacy with taxpayer money.

 

Full disclosure -- I'm a supporter of the project; just shocked at the incompetence of the county.

 

Does anyone really know if this contingency fund is/was to include construction as well?  For all we know, since we just found out about this fund, there may exist a construction contingency as well.  Or like someone else noted, it may already be built into the total price tag.  Nobody really knows since I doubt anyone on here has seen a cost breakdown.

I would think that the fund has few restrictions due to the unknown nature of possible problems, additions or other unforeseen costs.

While pure speculation on my part, I would imagine, despite the extensive studies that were conducted when choosing the site and the appropriateness of the current foundation, that those in the know were worried about hitting water and the possible cost to abate.  That was a big issue nearby when the library addition was constructed and resulted in lengthy litigation and a multi million dollar jury verdict.

^Actually, now that I think about, it did not result in a huge verdict.  The library was seeking millions due to cost over runs resulting from the water but lost at trial.  I think Fred Nance at Squires took the hit.

On a past post, I had talked to a engineer from Osborn who stated they found no problem, in regard to the water table by using the "bathtub" and if there was a water problem the mitigation was fairly easy and well known. I would like to see some shovels in the ground, as this project is being slowly talked death. Let's get this show on the road.

Let's get this show on the road.

 

Agreed!

Cleveland City Planning Commission approves revised plans for convention center

Published: Friday, October 01, 2010, 1:06 PM   

Steven Litt, The Plain Dealer

 

 

 

CLEVELAND, Ohio -- The Cleveland City Planning Commission is satisfied that the revised and more costly plans for a new downtown convention center will give the city a facility competitive with centers in cities including Cincinnati, Columbus and Indianapolis.

 

Today, the commission voted 6-0 to approve the new plans, developed over the past month by MMPI Inc. of Chicago, which will build and operate the facility, along with a new medical mart, under an agreement with Cuyahoga County.

 

The planning commission's action paves the way for a definitive agreement in which the city will sell the existing convention center to the county for $20 million, followed by a groundbreaking this fall.

 

http://blog.cleveland.com/architecture/2010/10/cleveland_city_planning_commis_2.html

 

Sometimes, I think I'm psychic. I'm getting a message, now. No, it was just my stomach growling.