I feel completely stupid asking this question, but what's wrong with the current Cleveland Convention Center? I haven't been there since I was probably 5 or 6, but why is there a need for a new one?

If it wasn't addressed many times earlier in this thread...  The current convention center that is in downtown Cleveland was designed in the 1920s.  I would dare say its probably the oldest convention center in America.  I'm sure someone will find that maybe one in poughkeepsie is older or something...  The problem not really being that its old, just outdated.  Its not convenient in any fashion for most conventions.  So much so that most people that book conventions don't even bother to put Cleveland on a list of options let alone a short list.  Its been a while since I've been to a convention or fair at the CC either(5yrs or so).  The main issues is that it is multi-level and it doesn't have many docks for trucks.

 

The other arduous part of this to me is that Cleveland doesn't necessarily want to look like a complete alsoran.  Most large US cities have relatively brand new CCs built within the last 15 years.  There's quite a glut of convention space. 

 

Its basically going to go down like this:  If the slot bill passes, FC will come to Cleveland's rescue and push forth a triple play of buildings for the CC, a casino, and the Medical Merchant Mart to connect to Tower City.  If the people of Ohio vote against slots then I suspect the convention center on the mall will get refurbished and added on to.

"I feel completely stupid asking this question, but what's wrong with the current Cleveland Convention Center? I haven't been there since I was probably 5 or 6, but why is there a need for a new one?"

 

The current center (meaning the main exhibit area itself) is functionally obsolete. Although the floor space is a decent size, there are enormous support columns that 1. take away from that space, and 2. make it difficult for exhibitors who have large booths/displays to set up.

 

Another big factor in the current center's obsolescence is loading docks. The industry standard for convention centers is to have approximately 20-30 loading docks so you don't have trucks idling on the street waiting to deliver show materials. Cleveland's convention center has two. That's TWO. Every minute that a driver idles waiting to deliver gets charged to the exhibitor, which results in a very expensive show. It also results in delays for your union people who set up your electric, cart your booth materials to your space, etc. and again the exhibitor has to absorb those costs as well. And of course, when you have dozens of trucks waiting in line that doesn't bode well for downtown traffic flow.

 

It's a beautiful building but in its current state it IS functionally obsolete.

 

*EDIT* I should clarify that with certain types of shows such as the upcoming Nurse Anesthetists Association, exhibitors tend to go with a simple 10' by 10' booth with what's called "pipe and drape" (a simple pipe structure with fabric draped over it and their sign hung from the structure). However, with shows that feature equipment or high-impact displays, as audidave pointed out - Cleveland doesn't even see the short list. Here are some visuals to show the kinds of displays that aren't physically possible in the current exhibit space. T

 

From ExhibitGroup/Giltspur, one of the nation's best exhibit/display design firms:

 

 

Note that this is for Hitachi's medical division:

 

 

Good description, MayDay.

 

Its basically going to go down like this:  If the slot bill passes, FC will come to Cleveland's rescue and push forth a triple play of buildings for the CC, a casino, and the Medical Merchant Mart to connect to Tower City.  If the people of Ohio vote against slots then I suspect the convention center on the mall will get refurbished and added on to.

 

I agree, and any renovations to the existing convention center will likely be small. The county possesses the ability to raise hotel bed taxes without a popular vote to afford a basic renovation.

Some of the big shows still go to the IX center.

"There is no space to build a new hotel at Tower City."

 

That's incorrect. In both proposals that Tower City has floated (the first being the Warehouse District/Pesht site) they have clearly indicated areas designated for a new hotel. The first plan suggested a hotel be constructed (presumably "stilted" above the air rights) over the entrance to the underground parking garage, located on Superior just west of the Renaissance Ballroom and east of the State Office Building. The current plan suggests a hotel be constructed on the parking lot just east of the Federal Courthouse tower.

 

 

The county possesses the ability to raise hotel bed taxes without a popular vote to afford a basic renovation.

 

Really? I thought the bed tax was completely tapped out. The info that I had heard, prior to the "recess" of the taskforce, was that the commissioners were contemplating a sales tax hike to pay for the convention center. The commissioners still have the ability to raise sales tax by 0.5 cents (per the General Assembly) without a popular vote. My understanding was that they were weighing whether 0.25 cents or 0.5 cents was a better option and were also assembling a number of add-ons (economic development, scholarships, etc.) to make the increase more palatable.

"Some of the big shows still go to the IX center."

 

True, but the IX Center lacks:

 

1. Hotels within walking distance.

2. Entertainment/Amenities

3. Direct transit connection from the airport.

4. Downtown. :-)

 

I agree 100%

 

The IX center is a reason people in the community have been reluctant to invest in a new CC, because we have that half-assed solution.  Still, to me it proves Cleveland can still draw large shows since some still come to Cleveland despite what you listed above.  Think how many more would if all of those conditions were met.

"There is no space to build a new hotel at Tower City."

 

That's incorrect. In both proposals that Tower City has floated (the first being the Warehouse District/Pesht site) they have clearly indicated areas designated for a new hotel. The first plan suggested a hotel be constructed (presumably "stilted" above the air rights) over the entrance to the underground parking garage, located on Superior just west of the Renaissance Ballroom and east of the State Office Building. The current plan suggests a hotel be constructed on the parking lot just east of the Federal Courthouse tower.

 

I do have to agree with Vulpster. It would be one thing if Forest City never received a dime of taxpayer money and Tower City was faultering. However, as we know all too well - they have received millions in public funds and subsidies and I wish I could say that they've been good stewards with it. It's like when you let a kid borrow the car and they damn near total it, do you run out and buy them a brand new snazzier model? If they want the CC so bad, they reeeally need to step it up a notch because from everyone I've spoken to, the general public has little confidence in their commitment to seeing that Cleveland gets something of the quality it deserves. Look at how they followed through with the appearance of Tower City Center on the southern end that faces the river (exposed rusted girders, etc.). It would be nice to think they'd do better this time around but leopards don't change their spots.

 

I couldn't have said it better!

 

All they do is "talk" about what they could do.  They should be doing thing NOW, not if they get the CC.

 

FC is full of lshit!!

I agree 100%

 

The IX center is a reason people in the community have been reluctant to invest in a new CC, because we have that half-assed solution.  Still, to me it proves Cleveland can still draw large shows since some still come to Cleveland despite what you listed above.  Think how many more would if all of those conditions were met.

 

the IX center is one of many problems.  Having one of the worlds largest convention centers (I think the 8 largest in the world) OUTSIDE OF THE CBD and adjacent to the airport means conventioners fly in...do a convention..then fly out without having spent a dime in our city/county. 

 

In addition, since its not downtown, conventioners don't see or have a "true" representation of Cleveland.  Big local event like the home/flower show, boat show, auto show which rely on local/regional patrons, dont bring any money to the city since these events are held at the IX center and there is no spin off spending since there is NOTHING around the IX center.  If this was held downtown, people might be more apt to take public transportation, instead of worrying about parking, stay downtown and eat at area restaurant and visit sight (IE..plan day or overnight trips), take a long weekend IN the city, etc. therefore spending money at restaurants, retail establishments and hotels. 

 

for instance in philly or DC when they have their versions of the aboved mentioned events..people stroll around, eat at restaurants, shop are retail locations, etc. since their CC's are located in the heart of their cities.

 

the IX center is bleeding the local convention business dry and at the same time saving it, because large scale conventions can be produced there...its a catch 22:  hotels in downtown don't stay booked, get an extra boost of patronage or exposure, taxis/car rentals/public transportation suffers since out of towners go right to the IX center and never venture out, restaurants don't get an extra boost of patronage or exposure for outside the local area.  I could go on....and all of the above mean, the Cleveland "brand" become unknown since people don't see the city proper and the perception is "nothing is going on" in Cleveland since people are going to the IX center and only seeing the soutwest 'burbs.  Our unique hotels don't get outside exposure or, our world class restaurants don't get national or international exposure business folks bring back and share with others.

 

However, the quicker the IX closes and a downtown center is built/rebuilt...Its one more thing that will improve the cities local economy. Bring the CC DOWNTOWN is not a "fix all" but just one item checked off the "to do list" for improving the city and the city's image.

Every meeting I went to and every academic discussion I've had over the past year on this topic have all either flat out stated or blatantly implied that the FC site is the lesser, if not a poor, site.  The only way I could see this fitting in back there is if it involved development across the river.  How that could happen, I don't know. 

 

SP is one of 5 sites being considered right now for a major new year-round cultural attraction. As is the Norfolk-Southern site by the innerbelt and the properties around the soon to be demoed Independent Towel Company. (stay tuned)

 

If this proposal pans out, then having the convention/mart at FC may be beneficial for everyone in the immediate area. This will not bode well for the lakefront in terms of touristy things, but will still keep the area more residentially friendly.

 

Of course, it still leaves to question what will become of the old CC.

 

What?  A major new year-round cultural attraction that needs a huge amount of land?  What are ou getting at here Musky? 

 

See:

http://www.urbanohio.com/forum2/index.php?topic=9965.0

Even though all is quiet right now, expect some major action on this and the medical mart to take place almost immediately after the elections - so says a member of the Convention Facilities Authority.

Even though all is quiet right now, expect some major action on this and the medical mart to take place almost immediately after the elections - so says a member of the Convention Facilities Authority.

 

Any insight as to what this "action" might be?  Will I be able to see an expansion over the tracks and some new hotels going up around it? 

its all going to depend on the issue 3 vote b/c they want to put a casino in with the convention center.

its all going to depend on the issue 3 vote b/c they want to put a casino in with the convention center.

 

"they who"?  where are you getting this information and can you give more information/greater details??

I think he means Forest City, as they are one of the big supporters of slots?

the gambling issue is sure to fail. then what?

 

I am sure that they've got a plan B that they would announce after the election when the gambling issue fails.

I thought the gambling issue was ahead in the polls?

^I've heard polls that go both ways. It just seems like such a long shot with our state's history with casino votes.

It will be a land slide victory in Cleveland/Cuyahoga.

It might pass in Columbus.

The rest of the hick state will kill it.

Yet another reason to secede.

Wasn't there an elected official from Summit County that made a bunch of press with this idea last year?

 

EDIT:

 

Found this on Brewed Fresh Daily:

 

http://www.brewedfreshdaily.com/2005/02/08/secession-anyone/

Good news about the CC anyways.  So musky, does it sound like the medical mart will happen?

What bearing does the medical mart and/or legalized gambling on the location of the convention center if any?

Where is that Forest City representative, clvlndr? He has been missing from this thread ever since I responded to his August 3rd rant.

Good news about the CC anyways.  So musky, does it sound like the medical mart will happen?

 

And that is the magical question.

The only people that know are god and FC... and god ain't talking.

 

I suppose if the stars line up right Issue 3 and 18 will pass. This will give leverage to FC, et al for the new convention center to be built in conjunction with the  Med Mart behind Tower City, and the construction of one casino on Scranton Peninsula and the other at Nautica.

The new funding provided graciously by the smokers of the county will allow for the old convention center to be reused as the North Coast Hollywood.

 

IMO

Good news about the CC anyways.  So musky, does it sound like the medical mart will happen?

 

And that is the magical question.

The only people that know are god and FC... and god ain't talking.

 

I suppose if the stars line up right Issue 3 and 18 will pass. This will give leverage to FC, et al for the new convention center to be built in conjunction with the  Med Mart behind Tower City, and the construction of one casino on Scranton Peninsula and the other at Nautica.

The new funding provided graciously by the smokers of the county will allow for the old convention center to be reused as the North Coast Hollywood.

 

IMO

 

WHAT??  IS THIS FACT OR YOUR WISH LIST??

 

THERE IS NO WAY IN HELL I WANT TO SEE THE CC BEHIND OR ATTACHED TO TOWERCITY.

Good news about the CC anyways.  So musky, does it sound like the medical mart will happen?

 

And that is the magical question.

The only people that know are god and FC... and god ain't talking.

 

I suppose if the stars line up right Issue 3 and 18 will pass. This will give leverage to FC, et al for the new convention center to be built in conjunction with the  Med Mart behind Tower City, and the construction of one casino on Scranton Peninsula and the other at Nautica.

The new funding provided graciously by the smokers of the county will allow for the old convention center to be reused as the North Coast Hollywood.

 

IMO

 

WHAT??  IS THIS FACT OR YOUR WISH LIST??

 

THERE IS NO WAY IN HELL I WANT TO SEE THE CC BEHIND OR ATTACHED TO TOWERCITY.

Ok

 

 

 

 

Can you answer my question?

 

At the bottom of my first post I clearly typed "IMO"

 

I just figured everyone would understand that it was "my opinion"

 

That is all of the information I have on the subject.

It must be the flashbacks from all of the time I spent in the Nine of Clubs which used to be in the currently located porn shop on West 6th Street.

But I regress.

 

 

BRING ON THE GAMBLERS!!!

Anyways...

 

I agree with Musky's idea about TC and the current CC.  As a condition to putting a cc at TC, I would build a land bridge over the tracks at Mall C.  The only reason why I would be disappointed with a cc at TC is that the current center would be empty and we'd lose an opportunity to bridge the gap the to lakefront. Business-wise, I think a TC cc makes the most sense by far.  Couple the transit, hotels, shopping, medical mart, casino and the Q--find me a better convention center than that in the country (ok, i really haven't done any research myself). I think Cleveland would blow away the other cities that we normally compete with. 

 

 

so the RATS are the only people that make out? 

Anyways...

 

I agree with Musky's idea about TC and the current CC.  As a condition to putting a cc at TC, I would build a land bridge over the tracks at Mall C.  The only reason why I would be disappointed with a cc at TC is that the current center would be empty and we'd lose an opportunity to bridge the gap the to lakefront.

 

I would like to go on record and say....Tower City is not the answer.  The only way I would allow FC to get the CC is....they PAY to blow up CBS, Rebuild CBS WITH a retractable dome, pedestrian and rail connections, on duck island and have the CC over the parking garage.  They must make the mall FIRST CLASS (ie the Dallas Galleria!)  Also they would have to pay for foundation work along the lakefront as it would now be ripe for re development.

Anyways...

 

Business-wise, I think a TC cc makes the most sense by far.  Couple the transit, hotels, shopping, medical mart, casino and the Q--find me a better convention center than that in the country (ok, i really haven't done any research myself). I think Cleveland would blow away the other cities that we normally compete with.

Hell FC let towercity fall off.  Let them dig themselves out.  From what business stand point do you think this is best.  NOBODY WILL GO OUTSIDE OR VENTURE OUTSIDE OF TOWERCITY.  WHO IS THAT GOOD FOR?? 

 

if this happens

- Cleveland will have a half ass convention center thats in the wrong place

 

- Remain the only city with ONE downtown transit hub.  were as the CC site can be built with rail, transit and improve...better yet...change the perception that NCH is on an island by itself.

 

- Tower City financial and perceived image improve, but what about the rest of downtown?

 

- The TC CC cannot be expanded or altered without risk of damaging other portions of TC

 

I would sonner take a leave of abscense from work and campaign for the current site then let FC get it!

 

 

Hell FC let towercity fall off.  Let them dig themselves out.  From what business stand point do you think this is best.  NOBODY WILL GO OUTSIDE OR VENTURE OUTSIDE OF TOWERCITY.  WHO IS THAT GOOD FOR?? 

 

if this happens

- Cleveland will have a half ass convention center thats in the wrong place

 

- Remain the only city with ONE downtown transit hub.  were as the CC site can be built with rail, transit and improve...better yet...change the perception that NCH is on an island by itself.

 

- Tower City financial and perceived image improve, but what about the rest of downtown?

 

- The TC CC cannot be expanded or altered without risk of damaging other portions of TC

 

I would sonner take a leave of abscense from work and campaign for the current site then let FC get it!

 

Clevelanders will not be the users of this convention center. It will only be successful if if caters to the out of towner.  If we build it at TC, we will get a lot more conventions into Cleveland. --and that's the entire point.  Additionally, I don't want TC to expand. Who needs more retail in our basement?  We can't try to make the cc fit the needs of Clevelanders. If we do that, it will fail.

Hell FC let towercity fall off.  Let them dig themselves out.  From what business stand point do you think this is best.  NOBODY WILL GO OUTSIDE OR VENTURE OUTSIDE OF TOWERCITY.  WHO IS THAT GOOD FOR?? 

 

if this happens

- Cleveland will have a half ass convention center thats in the wrong place

 

- Remain the only city with ONE downtown transit hub.  were as the CC site can be built with rail, transit and improve...better yet...change the perception that NCH is on an island by itself.

 

- Tower City financial and perceived image improve, but what about the rest of downtown?

 

- The TC CC cannot be expanded or altered without risk of damaging other portions of TC

 

I would sonner take a leave of abscense from work and campaign for the current site then let FC get it!

 

Clevelanders will not be the users of this convention center. It will only be successful if if caters to the out of towner.  If we build it at TC, we will get a lot more conventions into Cleveland. --and that's the entire point.  Additionally, I don't want TC to expand. Who needs more retail in our basement?  We can't try to make the cc fit the needs of Clevelanders. If we do that, it will fail.

 

Again, I disagree.  As a person who travels A TON.  The current convention center can be built out and the needs of the conventioners can be addressed by adding the rail link, and creating a convention area buy adding hotels in premium locations.  Not only would would the conventioners get a first class facility but the spin off of the leisure traveler being in a SECOND centrally located area give the opportunity for the downtown to reconnect, with simple infrastructure adjustments.

 

Outside of the CURRENT rail attached hotels and the mall.  Tower City isn't a better location nor does it have better spin off opportunities and we've yet addressed where the adjacent merchandise mart would be located.

The current CC site has zero spinoff possibilities and a transit station built for passenger rail is a pipe dream at best for the Civic Center area.

I'm with TC even though I have a big problem with FC.  Building up a node of urban density at Public Square, not the lakefront, is absolutely crucial for the health of Cleveland and the.  The lakefront will ideally just develop on its own, (extension of Stark's plan perhaps).

The current CC site has zero spinoff possibilities and a transit station built for passenger rail is a pipe dream at best for the Civic Center area.

I'm with TC even though I have a big problem with FC.  Building up a node of urban density at Public Square, not the lakefront, is absolutely crucial for the health of Cleveland and the.  The lakefront will ideally just develop on its own, (extension of Stark's plan perhaps).

 

We already have the station it will be incorporated into the bridge (mall d) and the Building to built there.

 

The mall area/CC is the same distance from Public Sq. as the TC CC site.

I don't know. What about the west block of the civic center, or the east side of E.9th pier across from the Rock Hall, the land north of Brown's stadium, a ferry terminal, and a lakefront aquarium? I see more immediate spinoff possiblities there than at Tower City. and I see how a convention center is necessary at the mall site to make these things happen. Whereas with Tower City I don't see many spinoff opportunities. First of all the only spinoff is on Scranton Peninsula (which might not even be stable enough to build anything on). Second of all, I think Tower City's riverfront and Scranton Peninsula would better be suited for residential development - which wouldn't require a convention center to catalyze that.

 

With a convention center at Tower City, I just see visitors trapping themselves in Tower City - their final destination, whereas the Convention Center on the mall site would make Tower City the visitors' gateway to downtown.

The current CC site has zero spinoff possibilities and a transit station built for passenger rail is a pipe dream at best for the Civic Center area.

 

If intercity rail to other cities is to happen, then the only downtown station site it can serve anymore is on the lakefront. Tower City is out, thanks to the construction of the federal courthouse tower.

 

I too am concerned about creating a massive vacancy downtown from building a convention center at Tower City. If someone from the city, county or Forest City had a viable plan in place for the existing convention center, then I might feel more at ease. And, to answer your question MTS, the behind-the-scenes idea right now is to finance construction of the convention center via gambling profits. If we don't get a casino, then we probably won't be able to afford a new/rebuilt convention center anyway.

A question I want to bring to this discussion is, why do we assume that if a new convention center is built anywhere other than where the current center is, we'll have a huge vacant building on our hands? Many cities have multiple convention facilities. The current one could be a spot for the smaller conventions that come to town, while a new one could house the big shows.

A question I want to bring to this discussion is, why do we assume that if a new convention center is built anywhere other than where the current center is, we'll have a huge vacant building on our hands? Many cities have multiple convention facilities. The current one could be a spot for the smaller conventions that come to town, while a new one could house the big shows.

 

If I'm not mistaken, its because the current center cannot be used and marketted to make any money unless it's completely upgraded.

 

Someone else might want to chime in.

I don't think the conventions industry is that healthy anymore to support having several large convention facilities in any city, especially one not known for its convention business bursting at the seams.

^Well, from my corner of the world, manufacturing, the FABTEC/AWS show is going on in Atlanta right now, and it is the largest show in terms of exhibitors and attendees in its history.

 

Right now I am bartending about a mile from McCormick in Chicago.  Everyone there says the annual shows are much bigger this year than in years past.

 

Conventions are back....from my perspective

^Well, from my corner of the world, manufacturing, the FABTEC/AWS show is going on in Atlanta right now, and it is the largest show in terms of exhibitors and attendees in its history.

 

Right now I am bartending about a mile from McCormick in Chicago.  Everyone there says the annual shows are much bigger this year than in years past.

 

Conventions are back....from my perspective

 

I agree.  I've gone to many conventions and seminars.  I've gone to quite a few in downtown cleveland, hosted in hotels who would much rather have a central convention center.

 

I have a friend at the Ritz who can't wait for the IX to go down and get more overnight corporate folks...to them...the IX center can't go away fast enough.

Maybe the old convention center could be turned into the aquarium that I keep reading about on UO???  Just a thought

Well, straight from the mayor's mouth...

 

I skipped one of my classes at CSU because I heard that the mayor would be in Dr. Krumholz (spelling might be wrong) class, so I walked in and sat down before the professor came, hoping he wouldn't throw me out of his class (he ended up sitting down right next to me, but didn't say anything).  The mayor came in, and the first thing he said was that he was not for regional government, but knew the importance of a regional economy.  He stressed that the reason why he wasn't for a regional government was because he knew that just because someone states "if we do this, wonderful things will happen", does not mean that those wonderful things will happen.  But back to the topic...

 

He was asked about the convention center... and he stated that Issue 3 has a good chance of passing, and if it did pass, "I think there would be no question that the convention center would go at Tower City".  He mentioned that Cincy and C-bus had the same chance that Cleveland had for casinos to be located in their downtowns, but didn't take it.  He said that he endorsed Issue 3 because the money generated from the casinos for the city would go towards an economic developement fund, and not towards the city's budget (he mentioned that Michigan cut 110 million from Detroit's budget when they got the casinos, so Detroit has not been able to benefit from them).  That way if the casinos wanted to leave, they would not affect the city's budget.  He also stated that with the two casinos and the convention center going downtown, in total the development would be over 1 BILLION dollars (and along w/ Stark's $1 billion plan, there's some big money going into downtown). 

He was asked about the convention center... and he stated that Issue 3 has a good chance of passing, and if it did pass, "I think there would be no question that the convention center would go at Tower City".  He mentioned that Cincy and C-bus had the same chance that Cleveland had for casinos to be located in their downtowns, but didn't take it.  He said that he endorsed Issue 3 because the money generated from the casinos for the city would go towards an economic developement fund, and not towards the city's budget (he mentioned that Michigan cut 110 million from Detroit's budget when they got the casinos, so Detroit has not been able to benefit from them).  That way if the casinos wanted to leave, they would not affect the city's budget.  He also stated that with the two casinos and the convention center going downtown, in total the development would be over 1 BILLION dollars (and along w/ Stark's $1 billion plan, there's some big money going into downtown). 

 

I PRAY YOU HAD MOMENTARY ISSUE WITH YOUR HEARING.  IF NOT......AHHHHH FUCK!  THAT MAKES NO DAMN SENSE!

 

well atleat the casino money goes into a fund where it will benefit the city.

Does Issue 3 have a good chance of passing?

Where is a convention center going to go if they are going to have casinos? Will they get rid of the mall and turn Tower City into slots? That wouldn't make sense because of the transit station.

 

Half of me thinks gambling is asinine and another half of me thinks "What if....!"

 

Only time will tell how I vote. I may be seduced.

Where is a convention center going to go if they are going to have casinos? Will they get rid of the mall and turn Tower City into slots? That wouldn't make sense because of the transit station.

 

Half of me thinks gambling is asinine and another half of me thinks "What if....!"

 

Only time will tell how I vote. I may be seduced.

 

the convention center and casino(s) are two different projects all together.  It is not a casino/convention center combo.

Yeah, what I mean is, if casinos get approved, where will it go downtown? And where will the convention center go? It seems like it would all be near the Tower City area, right? Or what?

Yeah, what I mean is, if casinos get approved, where will it go downtown? And where will the convention center go? It seems like it would all be near the Tower City area, right? Or what?

 

yes sweetie.  IIRC, the Convention Center would be attached to Tower City and the Casino(s) would go in the Flats.