MyTwoSense-

 

Yep, he did say that.  He pointed at the professor while he said it and the professor agreed with him.  It seemed like one of the mayor's main goals for the city is jobs for the residents.  He said that with the two casinos downtown and the convention center, many jobs would be created (some temporary, like the construction jobs with the projects).  From his viewpoint, it seemed that getting jobs that could go to the residents in the city is his goal. 

 

I asked him if he had any other plans to help foster the regional economy (as with the no-poaching agreement with the suburbs, tax sharing, etc.), and he brought up the airport, which is in a different thread.

the convention center and casino(s) are two different projects all together.  It is not a casino/convention center combo.

 

While that is true, I think it's pretty fair to say that if a casino or two is built in Cleveland, the revenues that would go to the city and county would probably help finance the new convention center.

 

That being said, I still haven't made up my mind on Issue 3. I don't like how the issue is being marketed as some college improvement fund with little or no mention of gambling. I say if you can't market something on its own merits, then why should I support it?

i had an internship this summer with ka architecture (forest city's main architecture firm) and i have confirmed evidence that..

 

a. if issue 3 passes the convention center WILL be built behind tower city on the riverfront.

b. this convention center will have a hotel tower next to the courthouse, and one full level of slots.

c. i did not get any confirmation of a development of scranton peninsula.. so that could be yes or no... but it did seem leaning towards a yes.

 

:wink: yay me!

i had an internship this summer with ka architecture (forest city's main architecture firm) and i have confirmed evidence that..

 

a. if issue 3 passes the convention center WILL be built behind tower city on the riverfront.

b. this convention center will have a hotel tower next to the courthouse, and one full level of slots.

c. i did not get any confirmation of a development of scranton peninsula.. so that could be yes or no... but it did seem leaning towards a yes.

 

:wink: yay me!

 

Ya for you, but this sucks for the city.

 

More shit sucked into towercity and OFF the city streets.

 

Now FC better bend over backwards, pull their heads out of their asses, hire a fashion director and marketing guru and make TowerCity one hell of a shoppers paradise!

If starks plans for a "Soho" like district North of Tower city pan out, then hopefully we'll have a synergy between the mall the WHD and Lower Euclid/E.4th, so there will be activity on the streets with people moving from venue to venue, store to restaurant and not all the activity happening under the Terminal Tower.

i had an internship this summer with ka architecture (forest city's main architecture firm) and i have confirmed evidence that..

 

a. if issue 3 passes the convention center WILL be built behind tower city on the riverfront.

b. this convention center will have a hotel tower next to the courthouse, and one full level of slots.

c. i did not get any confirmation of a development of scranton peninsula.. so that could be yes or no... but it did seem leaning towards a yes.

 

:wink: yay me!

 

We had heard as much, but we never really heard where the medical mart would go. So, where's the medical mart going to go?

I really don't see Issue 3 passing.

It's the only issue on the ballot that I don't really have a good sense about...in regard to numbers for and against.  Not that I'm making any predictions elsewhere!

 

Wim, you raise an important question...

If issue 3 fails, I'm a little concerned about the future of Tower City's exsistance. 

If issue 3 fails, I'm a little concerned about the future of Tower City's exsistance. 

 

Explain please??  I think Tower City is doing "ok".  Its not doing GREAT, but its doing just enough to get by.  Another ploy by the Rats to get the convention center!

If issue 3 fails, I'm a little concerned about the future of Tower City's exsistance. 

 

Explain please??  I think Tower City is doing "ok".  Its not doing GREAT, but its doing just enough to get by.  Another ploy by the Rats to get the convention center!

Unless your source is more reliable, I've heard that its losing a million per month.

If issue 3 fails, I'm a little concerned about the future of Tower City's exsistance. 

 

Explain please??  I think Tower City is doing "ok".  Its not doing GREAT, but its doing just enough to get by.  Another ploy by the Rats to get the convention center!

Unless your source is more reliable, I've heard that its losing a million per month.

 

Really?  Thats news to me.  My comments was not based on any financial calculation, just a guestamation.

 

However, FCE could be saying that....too look for help in getting the Convention Center.  You can spin numbers in a variety of way to get your point across.

I'm also concerned about TC, and I'm not sure I agree Tower City is even doing "OK."  There's a Dollar Store, Wig Shop, air brush shirt store and plenty of empty storefronts on the lower level.  Unfortunately the reality of it is that it's retailers are maybe a step above Randall Park Mall.

We're dependent on Stark and grass roots types getting us some retail options.

Forest City seems to accept taking TC as a loss.  If the convention center thing falls through, I would also be worried about FC's presence in Cleveland as a whole, not that they've done much for us besides the jobs they have in the Terminal Tower (nothing to look past I guess).

I just think that FC has been waiting for this issue to go on the ballot in order to figure out what they are going to do with their failing mall.  They are a huge company.  They do not have to hold onto a mall that is somewhat in shambles.  Also, we have seen they don't have much loyalty locally.  I really can't think of another reason they still hold onto the mall at this point. 

Brooks Brothers is just "a step from whats available at Randall Mall? That's news to me. That mall still has plenty of legitimate stores it hasn't been reduced to stores that have plastic banners as their signage.

^Agreed.  'a step above Randall Mall' is hyperbole on steroids.  In addition to Brooks Bros, TC Papyrus, Ann Taylor, Charlotte Russe, Nine West and Johnston & Murphy (cheap shoes?  I think not), among other high end and semi-high end stores -- yes, there's Its A Dollar, Fye and Payless Shoe Source (which, btw, is also prominently located on Chicago's tony Mag Mile, in case you've never noticed) ... Is Tower City all it could be?  No.  Could it be run better?  Yes... but I think people here act like the place is an ugly flea market and it's anything but... I hadn't heard the $1M/mo in the red... That's bad... But let's hope it can be cured, not killed just to kill the Ratners... what does that solve?

 

I for one hope the Medical Merchandise mart and, if it is to be (I'm not thrilled) a casino, if it passes, gets built on the Tower City site... The Rats don't deserve it, but Cleveland does.  It is the 1st class retail public space in the City, love it or hate (most here seem to hate it)...

 

I also, however, would hate to see the beautiful Public Hall buildings go to waste.  I can't believe a Hotel can't be built somewhere adjacent to that site utilizing the Hall and, perhaps, part of the underground convention space, at least part of it, as hotel convention space ... even if Tower City gets the main convention center.  Pie in the sky?  Maybe.  But you do have the lake.  You do have (I sure hope) a new Ohio Hub/Amtrak/Commuter rail North Coast station; you do have the Ave District going up next door; you do have the (hopefully connected) Rock Hall and GLSC; and hopefully some kind of housing build adjacent to that mainly-empty concrete bowl called Browns Stadium, that would, perhaps, stretch down and connect with Wolstein's development someday.

Demand for Cleveland-size convention centers is up

Saturday, November 04, 2006

Sarah Hollander

Plain Dealer Reporter

Some promising convention-industry news could help reinvigorate the stalled debate over whether to build a new convention center in downtown Cleveland.

 

North American convention and trade show business continues to rebound, according to results from an annual survey by PricewaterhouseCoopers, a consulting firm.

 

The report shows a 6 percent increase in demand for medium-size centers, such as Cleveland's. The company measured demand by both the number of days and space used.

 

More at cleveland.com http://www.cleveland.com

 

 

Maybe it wouldn't be such a bad thing if Tower City went up for sale. Forest City gave up on it when they started exclusively gunning for public money. They are the ones that made the mistake of turning it into an indoor, suburban-style mall. You can't "outsuburb" the suburbs. Granted, it's a nice mall; it's still just a mall.  I know Forest City is headquarted in TC and they'd probably up and leave Cleveland if they sold the complex, but worse things have happened to the city.  Maybe new owners and fresh ideas are what is needed to restore fiscal stability to the complex. 

Issue 3, as much as i would like it to, probably is not gonna pass.  Even still, to appease Forest City, the city and county are gonna try and put the convention center on the river.  I don't see Cuyahoga County willing to tax itself to build one, either.  Maybe the medical mart will make it a little easier to swallow, but the reality is people are just plain tapped out; especially in a city like mine.(Parma)

The public polling I've seen suggests that Issue 3 is down by double digits. While I have no particular affinity for Forest City, and while a change in management might lead to some substantive improvements, I would have to think the instability during a change in ownership would cause some volatility in the downtown office market, just at a time when occupancy is coming up to a reasonable level. Change certainly might not be bad, but unless any transition in ownership is seamless, this could have some real spillover on other downtown projects.

 

I've wondered this for a while now ... does anyone think the improvements to the tower might be prep work for putting the complex on the market (pending elections results/convention center outcome)?

Maybe the medical mart will make it a little easier to swallow, but the reality is people are just plain tapped out; especially in a city like mine.(Parma)

 

The conversations I've heard to date suggest that the convention center/medical mart might not be put in front of voters at all. There has been a lot of discussion of renewing the county-level sales tax. It's my understanding that the Commissioners have the ability to raise sales tax by up to 0.5% without voter approval. The only voter recourse would be to get enough petitions to put an anti-tax measure on the ballot and for that measure to pass, and that could only be accomplished in the election following the commissioners' decision. Judging from county officials' aversion to controversy, I imagine they would only go through with the tax hike if they landed the Medical Mart, or maybe if they could tie in additional economic development opportunities.

I'll be very interested to hear what comes out after the election concerning the CC. I'm sure that the slots proposal will go down hard, so plan B will then go into effect.

^Same with me Wimwar, but plan B will take years to surface.

Help me with the numbers and dates and see if I am off the mark (as an optimist)

 

Tower City Center and the Avenue debuted in 1990?

The renovations/cleaning of the tower will be finished in 2010?

The convention center, if it goes to Tower City, could be completed by 2010?

 

My hope is that FC is laying low and ready to debut a makeover of the mall, with the convention center and a polished new Tower for the twentieth anniversary of TCC.  (that one was for you MGD)

That goes to show what polls are, nothing but "statistics", with all the concomitant inaccuracy... with 1424 of 1434 precincts reporting, issue 3 has passed, 225,626-186,145, or 55%-45%. For the record, I voted against it, not necessarily because I'm against gambling (in fact, I'm not), but because I cannot agree with this being codified into the state Constitution. It's the same reason I voted against the minimum wage proposal.

 

Now, that being said, I don't know if a casino being built behind Tower City is as much of a foregone conclusion as RyanScav seems to imply. There's still a number of hoops that will need to be jumped through. Also, the comment about Tower City's tenants being "a step above Randall Mall" is, as clvlndr stated, "hyperbole on steroids". I've seen downtown malls go to hell before (Main Place Mall in Buffalo, NY, after the developer's failed attempt to turn it into a telecom hub just before the internet bubble burst, leaving Buffalo's onetime retail core with a whole lot of dark fiber and storefronts walled up into data centers that now sit idle), and Tower City, and the Galleria for that matter, are far from that condition. The downtown residential development taking place is approaching a tipping point that bodes well for both of these locations.

 

By the same token, I've seen suburban malls wither and die (Thruway Mall and Seneca Mall, again in the Buffalo area), and they've been reborn after someone realized it was time to level the damn thing and start over again. But I digress...

^^ Where are you getting that number. I'm pretty sure it failed....

That goes to show what polls are, nothing but "statistics", with all the concomitant inaccuracy... with 1424 of 1434 precincts reporting, issue 3 has passed, 225,626-186,145, or 55%-45%. For the record, I voted against it, not necessarily because I'm against gambling (in fact, I'm not), but because I cannot agree with this being codified into the state Constitution. It's the same reason I voted against the minimum wage proposal.

 

Now, that being said, I don't know if a casino being built behind Tower City is as much of a foregone conclusion as RyanScav seems to imply. There's still a number of hoops that will need to be jumped through. Also, the comment about Tower City's tenants being "a step above Randall Mall" is, as clvlndr stated, "hyperbole on steroids". I've seen downtown malls go to hell before (Main Place Mall in Buffalo, NY, after the developer's failed attempt to turn it into a telecom hub just before the internet bubble burst, leaving Buffalo's onetime retail core with a whole lot of dark fiber and storefronts walled up into data centers that now sit idle), and Tower City, and the Galleria for that matter, are far from that condition. The downtown residential development taking place is approaching a tipping point that bodes well for both of these locations.

 

By the same token, I've seen suburban malls wither and die (Thruway Mall and Seneca Mall, again in the Buffalo area), and they've been reborn after someone realized it was time to level the damn thing and start over again. But I digress...

 

Are you confusing the issue? Issue 3 definitely failed.

That goes to show what polls are, nothing but "statistics", with all the concomitant inaccuracy... with 1424 of 1434 precincts reporting, issue 3 has passed, 225,626-186,145, or 55%-45%. For the record, I voted against it, not necessarily because I'm against gambling (in fact, I'm not), but because I cannot agree with this being codified into the state Constitution. It's the same reason I voted against the minimum wage proposal.

 

Now, that being said, I don't know if a casino being built behind Tower City is as much of a foregone conclusion as RyanScav seems to imply. There's still a number of hoops that will need to be jumped through. Also, the comment about Tower City's tenants being "a step above Randall Mall" is, as clvlndr stated, "hyperbole on steroids". I've seen downtown malls go to hell before (Main Place Mall in Buffalo, NY, after the developer's failed attempt to turn it into a telecom hub just before the internet bubble burst, leaving Buffalo's onetime retail core with a whole lot of dark fiber and storefronts walled up into data centers that now sit idle), and Tower City, and the Galleria for that matter, are far from that condition. The downtown residential development taking place is approaching a tipping point that bodes well for both of these locations.

 

By the same token, I've seen suburban malls wither and die (Thruway Mall and Seneca Mall, again in the Buffalo area), and they've been reborn after someone realized it was time to level the damn thing and start over again. But I digress...

 

Are you confusing the issue? Issue 3 definitely failed.

 

my bad, apparently the Cuyahoga County BOE page has bad or incomplete data, the numbers I posted above are verbatim from their site for "State Issue 3"...  I think they're only posting county numbers for the state issue (yeah, 'cause THAT'S friggin' useful!)

 

anyway... WOO-HOO!!! nice to see that this went down...

So what do you guys think will happen here now that issue 3 has failed?

So what do you guys think will happen here now that issue 3 has failed?

 

I hope we can rebuild the CC at the mall site!  Just my preference

So what do you guys think will happen here now that issue 3 has failed?

 

Personally, I'm with MyTwoSense in wanting to see it rebuilt at the mall site.

 

That area has boatloads of potential, accessibility beyond belief while still retaining proximinity to a wide range of reasonable accommodations, and building there would encourage (okay, force) arrivals downtown from the airport (via RTA Red Line, hopefully) to actually interact with downtown, as opposed to fly in-convent(is that the verb form of convention??)-fly back out without ever really knowing where you've been.

 

"Incidental tourism" dollars like that may not seem like much, but they add up over time.

Even though all is quiet right now, expect some major action on this and the medical mart to take place almost immediately after the elections - so says a member of the Convention Facilities Authority.

 

So Musky, do you think they were just blowing smoke....outside of course

^Now I am told things will happen after the holidays, but not to the degree as previously eluded.

I think the issue five lose has something to do with it.

^Now I am told things will happen after the holidays, but not to the degree as previously eluded.

I think the issue five lose has something to do with it.

 

Issue 5? Do you mean Issue 3?

Oh, crap.

Yes... three.

 

Must sleep now.

 

^Now I am told things will happen after the holidays, but not to the degree as previously eluded.

I think the issue five lose has something to do with it.

 

How much you wanna bet?

 

::rimshot::

Yeah, issue 3 definately had something to do with the convention center not being announced as of yet.  Again, if issu 3 would have passed, the convention center would have been put behind Tower City, no question about it.  But since issue 3 failed, I'm personally hoping they utilize the mall and finish Daniel Burnham's plan for Cleveland.

Any new rumors or actual news?

I totally forgot to post this... mainly because I told my source (when he told me on December 18 at Becky's) that I would wait until after the new year before blabbing about it. So I would file this as news... as of December 18 - but you should consider it a rumor. At least until there is something more official announced.

 

 

My very, very reliable source (who was a member of the Convention Facilities blah, blah, blah) told me under gin induced breath, the Medical Mart is a go. This has everything to do with the convention center and its location - Tower City.

 

I was told the Medical Mart people loved whatever proposal was given them and are very excited about building here. Apparently there are/were some small details that needed to be worked out before any announcement is/was to be made, and it looks like those details may not have been worked out yet.

 

So there you have it. Let the bickering begin.

I still don't understand how they are finding room for a medical mart on a site that the convention center barely fit on in the first place.  Anyone have any ideas?

Easy. Build over Huron Road. Over the surface Tower City parking lots. Over Canal Road. Over the right of way Cuyahoga Valley Scenic Railroad wants to use to reach the former B&O Station. Over the Cuyahoga River. Over Carter Road. Over Tremont. Over, over, over.

Didn't FCE buy some more property along the river?

 

I still think Higbees is a good candidate for the medical mart

Maybe they will bridge across to Scranton Peninsula, or squeeze it further up by TC Amphitheatre.

That's where FCE bought the land, near the amphitheater. Didn't someone post of map of it here

That land seems like an odd place to put a medical mart. Its too isolated from downtown's core.

It would be, but if you look at the Convention Facilities Authority website, the footprint for a convention center may extend that far (including access roads, ramps and such)....  http://www.conventioncleveland.com/

 

Here's the article I remembered...

 

http://www.urbanohio.com/forum2/index.php?topic=3814.msg146927#msg146927

 

Forest City adds to Tower City holdings

 

By STAN BULLARD

 

6:00 am, December 11, 2006

 

Forest City Enterprises Inc. continues widening its reach south of Tower City Center in an area near Tower City Amphitheater in the Flats.

 

Land records show the developer paid $2.18 million for three warehouses at 410-607 Stones Levee, which is catty-corner to the amphitheater.

 

More at crainscleveland.com http://www.crainscleveland.com

That land seems like an odd place to put a medical mart. Its too isolated from downtown's core.

 

Plus, the power plant is between that land and the land directly behind TC.

Last semester I did a project using the land formerly known as Ontario Pointe. If medical mart/convention center is a go, it could feasible for FC to purchase this land and the parcel that are adjacent to it next to Canal Road. This would be a great opportunity to bring some development up to Ontario across from Jacobs Field.

There might be an issue with air rights over the RTA tracks though.

 

 

 

I proposed something similar, except I proposed vacating the short street between the RTA tracks and Ontario (I believe that was either East 4th or Broadway pre-1930). I don't have the rendering here at the office, but I'd like to post it later. Although I'm not sure what this has to do with the convention center?

Here at my place of employment, we do some work for Forest City (for better or worse) and I walked by a desk of one of the higher up people, and there is a rendering of an ESPN Zone at the northwest corner of Prospect and Ontario, the south end of the Higbee Building.  Could be that rear tenant they have been looking for...

^Interesting - definitely not my cup of tea, but it would certainly be a good location given the proximity to Gateway.