"There's a strong belief that whatever we do, it ought to be useful for Cleveland residents, as well as visitors," said attorney Ken Silliman, head of the CFA's Planning Committee.

 

I'm really happy to see this discussion has reached the press and is being discussed on a serious level.  It was a common subject of conversation during my two days on campus in CSU's College of Urban Affairs and I think this is the only way that I would support the building of a new convention center.  It has to be done right and it has to serve a greater purpose than just visitors and our local corporate interests.  If the public of Cuyahoga County is going to pay for it, they should see some benefits...and we know this won't come in the form of direct revenues from the center.  So, why not address some of Downtown Cleveland's basic needs??? 

 

And make it affordable for residents to use.  How many of our publicly funded megaprojects are exclusive of the general public because of their price?  The cost of a day at Jacobs Field?  The Rock Hall?  Cleveland Browns Stadium? 

 

I think this is an important discussion and the decision on a convention center should be postponed as long as necessary to get it right.  We're going to have to live with this thing and its cost for the foreseeable future!

 

As for the Scranton Peninsula...I'm not the expert by any means, but I think we're all in favor of seeing it put to productive use.  It's a key link between the East and West side and it could serve as the single largest development project in Cleveland's history and it should be done right.  Plus, it is critical to the completion of the Cuyahoga Valley Towpath Trail.  Just viewing the site on an aerial photo tells the outsider a lot...it is large, central, underutilized, and represents a HUGE gap between several very key neighborhoods in our fair city.

 

Pres,

 

Sure would love to know more about what's going on.  All I know is what I have read in the article posted above that mentions Scaravelli's plans.  There was also an article on Scaravelli in the Scene or Free Times in the past two years about his project and how no one seems to be taking him seriously.  Well, is he some crazy guy with a poor track record? Why isn't he taken seriously?

presOhio,

 

How much time do you have, and how much do you need to know?  I can give you some tips on property research.  It can get very time consuming and complex, however.  And that is assuming that the data available is correct (a big assumption).  Here is something to get you started.

 

Find the parcels that you are interested in on the City of Cleveland Planning Commission's online GIS website here:

http://planning.city.cleveland.oh.us/gis/cpc/basemap.jsp

 

When you use the "info" tool on a parcel of interest it will give you the permanent parcel number (PPN), ownership, zoning, and land use info.  It is out of date.  To get the most recent and detailed info, go to the County Auditor's website and enter the PPN here:

http://auditor.cuyahogacounty.us/REPI/default.asp

 

This will give you the most recent data available on the property, including everything above, title tranfers, appraised values, and back taxes.

 

I would print out a parcel map, and started mapping out who owns what.  Also, ownership can be hidden in all sorts of partnerships or aliases, or it can be hidden by not recording deeds at all.  There are more techniques I can give you if you have the time to do this research.

Also, don't forget to notice what is owned by City of Cleveland Land Bank.  That is almost a given that it can be used for a development.

Wow!  Looking at that photo really makes me kind of sick.  A dense development there could be one of the nicest examples of new urbanism.  With so much so close, including a towpath connection and the a rivewalk.  It really is a crime that Forest City doesnt either develop it or sell it to someone who could do the city a lot of good.  If this peninsula was build, it would make the Flats, WHD, Gateway that much more of an attractive place. 

First of all, we should make the Scranton Peninsula its own thread, though it probably already has several...

 

And second, yes, the development of this land is something that ABSOLUTELY MUST happen!  If there were ever a case for eminent domain, wouldn't this be it???  Look at all the land and bridge connections to our fastest growing inner-city neighborhoods!  And think about the type of neighborhood that could spring up here...something unique to the entire country...Cleveland's geographically signature neighborhood...surrounded by a winding river and historic bridges...a quick walk from EVERYTHING!!!

 

Cities have used eminent domain to knock down buildings and acquire property that people actually live in...this site contains a bunch of storage facilities and barren land!  This is maddening!  There is a problem with the public using eminent domain to turn the property over to a private developer (scaravelli), but we've talked on other threads about the threat of eminent domain pushing current owners to either sell or develop themselves.  I know there are people working on this, but what's restraining them from pushing it forward???  Aside from not wanting to piss of Forest City, that is...

 

I can apply the previous paragraph to any number of infuriating development gaps in Cleveland (WHD parking lots, Davenport Bluffs, E. 12th Street lots, and on), but this one is right at the top of the list. 

by the way, great visuals as usual MayDay

^mgd---sadly, eminent domain will never happen downtown unless maybe cleveland can elect a community-minded super independently wealthy mayor and council president (ie., they need a bloomberg). on the public side the landowners are all big, big campaign contibuters--which means they also contribute to this or that and wield even more power under the radar too. thats why its never been done in the past and the land has sat empty or with parking lots for decades, it's a political dead end.

 

i'd think creative use of the twin tools of eminent domain and port authority financing could radically change the city around almost over night. who will do it?

 

 

I don't know about eminent domain "never" happening downtown. If the city had some money to play with, it might go after a downtown parking lot or two. A more likely prospect is a joint city-port authority effort in going after some parking lots. The port authority has eminent domain power, but I don't know if it applies to development projects or just the port. They do have some resources the city doesn't have, however. Still, there has to be a "public purpose" aspect to the eminent domain action. So if the land acquisition is purely an effort to develop a site, the eminent domain argument won't fly. If it's to remove blight, increase property values and support the school system, then eniment domain may make go somewhere.

 

KJP

Seeing Sherwin Williams in that picture reminds me that they are starting construction on their addition next week.  They are adding a three story tech center.  You know what this means...MORE JOBS.

Is the tech center going up next to the research buildings?  I wish that land was a park and Sherwin wasn't using it like a suburban office park.

I wonder if that tech center will squeeze FC's proposed convention center site? Part of me hopes it does, as I favor rebuilding the existing center with a ped extension over the tracks & Shoreway. I also wish Sherwin Williams would consolidate all their offices in Greater Cleveland in a new tower on Public Square, tho I realize research probably involves chemicals and activities not suitable for an officer tower.

 

KJP

anyone seen any renderings/drawings of this addition???

My brother works for Sherwin, and they have owned that property since before the terminal tower was built.  So I don't think any of that land was considered in the convention center plan.

From the 4/13/05 Plain Dealer:

 

 

 

Convention center may tap hotel, dining taxes

Tom Breckenridge

Plain Dealer Reporter

 

Paying for a convention center could mean new taxes on hotel stays and restaurant meals under a fledgling finance plan laid out Tuesday to Cleveland City Council.

 

During an update on their work, members of the Cleveland-Cuyahoga County Convention Facilities Authority explained for the first time how the county might pay the debt on a new convention center, estimated to cost $300 million to $500 million.

 

...

 

 

To reach this Plain Dealer reporter: [email protected], 216-999-4695

 

© 2005 The Plain Dealer. Used with permission.

 

http://www.cleveland.com/convention/index.ssf?/base/cuyahoga/1113384844311110.xml

 

I'm not a fan of increased restaurant taxes.  I don't see how they can legitimately say that it's an out-of-towner's expense.  What?  Locals don't eat out in the city?  We don't drink in Cleveland bars?  Come on...if you've got to do all sorts of crazy things to pay for it (and we're still going to be WAY in the hole), then maybe that says something about the project to begin with!

^ They did that with the local hotel tax, countywide.  Not only does that make Cincy have some of the highest hotel taxes in the country, but suburban hotels got pissed.

Logically, it is an expense for an out-of-towner. However, a lot of residents also happen to eat at those restaurants.  At least they are not trying to tax RTA tickets or new inner city apartments.

 

MGD,

 

When you were hanging around the Levin College last month, what were the opinions of the convention center?  I thought I remember you saying that it was a topic of discussion.

My favorite tax scheme is one attempted by Davidson County (Nashville) state senators to pay for a new minor league park.  They tried to raise the state-wide sales tax for construction costs.  The sales tax would be raised in every county except Davidson.  Somehow, the state legislature didn't pass it.  :-o :roll:

^ Hmm...creative, to say the least!

How about that "unequalled spirit of cooperation and public progress"?  where have those days gone???

 

As for the feeling at CSU on the subject of the Convention Center, the big conversation in a classroom setting seemed to be about 80% for renovating the old site (including the professor) and 20% for the Tower City site.  Other than that, the discussion I mentioned focused on possibilities for adaptive reuse of the old hall and ways to incorporate wider public services and amenities in a newly remodeled hall that could be of use to everyday Clevelanders.

My biggest concern with the Convention Center is that it, along with the casinos, are going to take up all the oxygen while more important things like the Lakefront, Innerbelt reconstruction, ECP, and the Schools Building Project go unattended.  I think those other things would have far more major impacts on both the face of our city in the eyes of outsiders and on the quality of life for residents.

I agree with your concern, X.  The convention center debate has been going on for nearly a decade now (as far as I know) and nothing has happened.  The most recent years have proven how volatile this debate is and how apparently undecided our region is on this being a priority for public funds.  I'm not concerned about the inner-belt or Euclid Corridor losing attention, since they are both already receiving hefty state and federal funding and will go forward either way.  Where I see us suffering is in initiatives and "framework" plans like the lakefront plan and all of our neighborhood development plans that will be pushed to the back burner.  These, too, seem like the real quality of life projects that will make our city more livable in the long run.  They could also see much more substantial gains from much smaller monetary allocations.  We're not going to increase the everyday Clevelander's quality of life by building a money-sapping convention center or realigning of a tiny stretch of Downtown interstate.  Don't get me wrong...I want these things to happen...I just think our priorities are a little off.

^oh i hope that gets built instead, itd be nice if the convention center was near those museums and on plus its still on the WL line.  people would ride the Red Line AND the WL which could help both sections of the system. 

I was at the presentation today, and I must say that I think that the plans for the current site blow away the Riverview site completely.  Its a better location for a convention center, as it is closer to parking and hotels.  It makes more sense from a facilities standpoint, because it will have direct truck access from the Shoreway, will have a better configuration of space, and it includes what to do with the Public Auditorium, Cuyahoga County offices site, and of course the current convention site.  Also, the idea they have of making it a suspension bridge like structure will allow for a beautiful and unique space with views out over the lake.  I actually want them to build a convention center now.  Or at least at that spot if they do.

And from what I've seen of the Forest City proposal...there just isn't much to see.  It just looked like they were trying to cram something unattractive and impractical into a spot that really can't handle what they're asking of it.

 

If we've got to do this (which we all know I'm not really into), I'm 100% behind the current site, with expansion to the Cuyahoga County offices site in the near future, when the move to the Ameritrust site!

Are there any renderings of what the rebuilt convention center would look like?

I don't know that these are current, but they're worth a look.  They're from LMN's website.

 

 

I definitely think, from a sales point to the community, "fixing up" the old center is easier to swallow than building a new one. 

I "expect" to hear expansion/new build plans by hotels.  Marriott already announced an upgrade its Key Center Property.  It's directly accross the street and i "hope" they will build ontop (if i remember correctly it was built with a blank floor atop for expansion purposes) and turn this into a "marquis" property.

 

The Conv. Authority needs to develop a PR/Marketing strategy and start the booking/scheduling of LARGE SCALE conventions that didn't want to go to the IX center or conventions/exhibits that skipped Cleveland because they felt they couldn't make a profit in Greater Cleveland, because the IX Center wasn't in a centralized location with nearby amenities.  In addition the new facility should be able to keep conventions/exhibits in the city long being in the heart of downtown.

 

In additon the city can now work with hotel chains to encourage the marketing and upgrading of current propeties new building of properties that Cleveland doesn't have, such as a Sheraton, Westin, W Hotel; Courtyard; Hilton; Le Meredian (although they are merging with Starwood which owns the Sheraton, Westin, W brands); Pennisula; House of Blues (loews); Penisula  and actually get some cool boutique propeties like the Klimpton Group hotels. 

 

A beautiful Highrise property on Public Square would do wonders for that quadrant.  Or a combo highrise hotel/condo would be fabulous.  If marketed properly i think anyone would love to have an address that says "1 Public Square". 

 

There is so much potential.

 

In addition the airport can now start work on its continued improvement/master plan

Wed. May 18 Plain Dealer has a huge article with small diagrams regarding this. Not sure if it builds/borrows from the Crane's article, but it is very similar. Additionally, today's PD also discusses Steelyard Commons back in effect with Wal-Mart and also has an article regarding the AT Tower site being chosen. Lots of stuff to read and save in today's edition for sure! Metro section also discusses support for the new Wolstein project in the flats. This is crazy - a lot of shit is being announced/planned in Cleveland all at once (I haven't seen this in how long???)

^I probably haven't heard this since the seventies-early 80's.  (Justice Center, Sohio, One Cleveland, and several other buildings along E 9th and 12th).  It seems like about every 15 years, a building boom hits Cleveland.  That's the way they describe it on the news. 

^I probably haven't heard this since the seventies-early 80's. (Justice Center, Sohio, One Cleveland, and several other buildings along E 9th and 12th). It seems like about every 15 years, a building boom hits Cleveland. That's the way they describe it on the news.

 

Now if the city, county, business leaders are serious about attracting NEW residents, businesses and visitors its time to shake things up at the "growth" association and the Convention/Tourism Bur.  as we need a PR strategy to seperate us from the rest of the tier-two cities and put us in DIRECT competition to tier one locales.

 

Advertising & Marketing to African American's, Latino's, Asian and Gay/Lesbians and Women's groups should be on the top of the list.  In addition we should be working with embassy's to set up shop (especially eastern european and s. american) and turning this city into an international point of entry.

Wasn't there some talk a while back that some of the E 12th street action would include residential specifically catering to gays?  Not sure exactly what that involves, but apparently it's an untapped market in Cleveland.

That was a group called A Place for Us, which is a company that develops retirement residences for the LGBT community. It's a relatively untapped market nationwide as the community has somewhat different dynamics and needs as they get older. I believe the proposal fell through or simply wasn't acted upon.

Wasn't there some talk a while back that some of the E 12th street action would include residential specifically catering to gays? Not sure exactly what that involves, but apparently it's an untapped market in Cleveland.

 

untapped ... and unseen as it's one of the largest gay populations in the country

 

Cleveland misses the ball by not courting gay conventions, gay prides or marketing or developing its "gay-borhood".

 

Its pretty well know that lakewood and Edgewater is where lots of gay men live and there are pockets in places like shaker sq., coventry & lower hough.  while cleveland hts. has a huge lesbian population

 

I remember when there were numerous gay bars in the warehouse district in the mid 70s and 80s.  I would think there are lots that live downtown especially swanky warehouse district condos/loft.

 

But until we see demographic information on our CVB website, I doubt people will feel Cleveland is "gay friendly"

Another view of the forest city proposal?

 

 

anyone going to post the images from the 5/18 PD for us out-of-towners???

 

by the way, I think the promotion of Cleveland to different, under-represented groups (esp. G/L/B/T population) is worth another thread, don't you?  who's gonna start it?

^Yes and no - the problem with promoting to target groups is that so (soooo) often, the efforts come off as contrived. You're also trying to reach a demographic that is as fickle as the day is long, and is usually a little too worldly to be persuaded by the usual CVB marketing efforts. For example, a travel brochure with a rainbow flag and a smiling gay couple with the Cleveland skyline in the distance would read as ultra-cheesey.  You also run the risk of promoting Cleveland to be something it isn't - sure, the nightlife is decent and yes, the community is pretty sizable but don't try to convince the average 'mo that Edgewater/Clifton is the next WeHo, Chelsea or Castro. 

 

i dont think its that easy to target any group, i know personally for me i could give two craps if a place is gay friendly or not

 

now if its teeming with culture and things to do outside of the usual clubs and bars, well then, im suddenly interested

I do not understand that Forest City proposal.  What streets are those? 

Oh, now I see it.  Ontario and Huron.  The existing parking garage gave it away.

I like the Niketown in that picture.  That would be cool.

Hey MayDay, correct if I'm wrong, but does that Forest City Picture show the NikeTown sitting over the unfinished portion of the Landmark Office Tower (left unfinished since the depression?) 

 

I hate to say it, 'cause i'm no fan of Forest City, but I'm starting to warm to the idea of a convention center there.  If the mall becomes abandoned...the redevelopment opportunitites around it could be awesome (imagine a cool neighborhood of Park Avenue type buildings overlooking Malls A and B rising where the current County Office Bldg. and 113 St. Clair sit today...) 

^Yes and no - the problem with promoting to target groups is that so (soooo) often, the efforts come off as contrived. You're also trying to reach a demographic that is as fickle as the day is long, and is usually a little too worldly to be persuaded by the usual CVB marketing efforts. For example, a travel brochure with a rainbow flag and a smiling gay couple with the Cleveland skyline in the distance would read as ultra-cheesey.  You also run the risk of promoting Cleveland to be something it isn't - sure, the nightlife is decent and yes, the community is pretty sizable but don't try to convince the average 'mo that Edgewater/Clifton is the next WeHo, Chelsea or Castro. 

 

The point is we're not doing ANYTHING!  :cry:  We should be have the best gay community in Ohio & america's NORTH COAST drawing gays people from all over.  I wouldn't want to compared to WeHo (personally, it's not all the cute); chelsea is a beast of it's own!

 

We don't have a promotable gay hood that potential visitors from another city would know about except by "word of mouth".  Philly recent "came out of the closet", so to speak, and is actively promoting the gay neighborhood in center city.  what are we doing??

 

the CVB should be working WITH the gay community to come up with "discovery seeker" ideas not try to market them since the CVB is run by old, white, conservatives.  Cleveland has two gay pride celebrations [(www.clevelandpride.org (june 18) & black unity pride (august 5-8)] coming up.  How much does anyone on this board no about them?  Probably nothing.  local residents probably don't know or wont know in advance.

 

how many asian, latin or ethnic play, performances, concerts, etc..  has playhouse square, Gund arena or CSU convocationi center brought to cleveland?  This is an area that the city and its venues should be marketing to as Asian Village establishs itself.  We have a sizable latin community that would embrace more than just baseball. 

 

This is a way to raise or international presence and bring events & productions that appeal to an underserved segment of the population.  Playhouse square (or one of the above mentioned venues) wins by bring a whole new segment of the population downtown, to playhouse square that might possibly buy tickets to our more popular series.  It is the perfect starting point for anyone (visiting or living) in Cleveland. If the events are worthwhile and enjoyable people will come back.  And by being a city with various ethnic residents, something small like this could be a reason to move to our city.

 

In today's economy no stone should go unturned our possibilities are limitless

"Cleveland has two gay pride celebrations [(www.clevelandpride.org (june 18) & black unity pride (august 5-8)] coming up.  How much does anyone on this board no about them?  Probably nothing.  local residents probably don't know or wont know in advance."

 

Oh, believe me - I know all about them  :wink:

 

"the CVB should be working WITH the gay community to come up with "discovery seeker" ideas not try to market them since the CVB is run by old, white, conservatives."

 

But *who* should represent the community? The activists? The club owners? Heck, the community has plenty of old, white ... well maybe not conservatives but you get the idea. 

Oh, believe me - I know all about them :wink:

 

I'm not one to gossip...so you didn't hear this from me..... BUT, rumor has it you're the grand marshall!  lol   :-D :-D

 

"the CVB should be working WITH the gay community to come up with "discovery seeker" ideas not try to market them since the CVB is run by old, white, conservatives."

 

But *who* should represent the community? The activists? The club owners? Heck, the community has plenty of old, white ... well maybe not conservatives but you get the idea.

 

I think there should a combination of all the above.  We need a Gay pride week, etc.

 

...... but this is morphing into another forum "topic"  lol   :wink:

MTS, you captured my response better than I could have written it...so I'll hold further comment on that.  (What happened to the new thread?)

 

On the subject of the CONVENTION CENTER ( :-P) and StrangeBrew's comment, if there's such great development potential on the site, then why not build on it either way?  FC has been sitting on that site for decades and could take advantage of many of the things that they're using to lure the Convention Center committee (the river, the shopping, the transit, Gateway, etc) to build something that would actually fit and make sense there!  And yes, StrangeBrew, you could have your precious Nike Town...but who shops there anyways???

Hey MayDay, correct if I'm wrong, but does that Forest City Picture show the NikeTown sitting over the unfinished portion of the Landmark Office Tower (left unfinished since the depression?)

 

I hate to say it, 'cause i'm no fan of Forest City, but I'm starting to warm to the idea of a convention center there. If the mall becomes abandoned...the redevelopment opportunitites around it could be awesome (imagine a cool neighborhood of Park Avenue type buildings overlooking Malls A and B rising where the current County Office Bldg. and 113 St. Clair sit today...)

 

Why can't FC or another developer build "Park Avenue" or "lakeshore drive" type of apartment buildings around the current towercity location?    :?   They claim (and apparently so have shoppers that won't go there) that the mall doesn’t have "upscale" stores.  If they built one or two grand towers over the current parking facility, they could "bridge" E. 4 gateway and the WHD and create that "ubber-luxury" neighborhood that TC was originally planned to be.  Add a swanky hotel and renovate the renaisance and bingo!  We have a winner!!  :wink:

 

 

FC should partner with - or sell the mall - to a mall manager like simon malls who has a proven track record of developing great malls (Houston’s galleria, Atlanta’s lenox mall, dc's pentagon city to name a few)  or Premier Marketplaces (which manages the fashion show in Vegas, or watertower place in Chicago).  A mall strategic planner/developer/marketer could bring back stores that were there when the mall initially opened.  The added housing, would give the mall built in shoppers, and people who live there would have the expectation that the mall should be “respected” and the “hangout/unsafe” factor would be eliminated.  With expensive housing attached, there is noway that anyone would allow kids (of any color or homeless people) to just "hangout" at towercity.  No housing in downtown was part of the problem with TC originally.  Whdn the mall originaly opened, during the day and on weekends that mall was packed and tour buses were rolling in.  In addition, they maybe able to locate a tenant for the higbee building.   Today its just an “average” mall that you can find anywhere.  Not even the gay boys are shopping in TC!  TC is not a “fab” mall that you can find anything in!

 

FC has the potential to build ANYTHING and how I perceive this is they "do not" believe in Cleveland so they wont invest unless we play by there “substandard” rule and give us stores that are just “ok” not full fledged “flagship” stores!

 

Why did they need the convention center as a "carrot" in front of Cleveland to "upgrade" the mall?  Housing downtown is booming, sans District Park.  This is FCs opportunity to make lemonade from lemons.  They have the power to enhance the southern portion of TC......but will they????   :?  :?  :?

 

With all the planned new housing,  current housing in a 25 block radius of downtown and the FUTURE housing that should be finished in the next few years, why shouldn’t our young hip and cool residents have a fabulous mall with adjacent street level retail have a place to shop and rave about?  Beachwood, Crooker Park and Legacy village aren’t as “fabulous” as any of the malls I’ve mentioned above, FC has the opportunity to drastically upgrade shopping in this town and make TowerCity the “it” mall in Ohio!

 

This city has much potential to reclaim its seat as one of America’s favorite cities....  Can we do it is the question!

^ Great point! Consider the small parcel of "land" at the corner of Huron and Ontario, where the brick face of the Guildhall Building looks out over Ontario. When the Terminal Group was built, that was supposed to be another office building. In the late 1980s, another office building was proposed to be built there (see below). Why can't this be market-rate housing instead? There's parking below, and enclosed walkways to Gateway, Tower City, Rapid transit etc etc. Add to this the school that CWRU proposes for the Higbee building. Of all the mixed uses that Tower City has, one thing it lacks is housing. What a great site for housing!

 

 

KJP