At what point did I suggest Gateway shouldn't have been built? :whip: :whip: :whip:

 

"I'm not saying it hasn't had spinoff, or that it hasn't had some great benefits to the city"

 

"I'm not saying it hasn't had spinoff, or that it hasn't had some great benefits to the city"

 

"I'm not saying it hasn't had spinoff, or that it hasn't had some great benefits to the city"

 

All I'm saying is, taxpayers got (and are still getting) screwed with the f#ckups behind Gateway, many of them arranged by Tim Hagan. Now, he's behind a Medical Mart which would benefit his Kennedy family connections, and again projecting a deluge of jobs, spinoff, etc. If taxpayers are leery of the Medical Mart proposal, they aren't being whiny or cheap (okay, maybe some are), they're probably still seething at the mismanagement from earlier projects they largely funded. Average citizens may be proud of the projects from the 90s, but they certainly don't benefit as much as the ultra-wealthy have (at average citizen's expense).

 

^So what are you saying? :-D

Mayday, why do you hate Gateway?

 

 

 

 

 

;)

I'm all for the tax increase to pay for the Medical Mart.  In return, however, I feel that the County should receive a % cut of the profits.  I know, it's a dream that'll never happen.  It's pretty disingenuous to have taxpayers subsidize creation of this private entity's profits.  We deserve a cut in return.  That would make the tax increase more of a loan rather than a handout.  Sadly, our politicians are not savvy or intelligent enough to propose such a solution. 

Didn't mean to bring out Malificent :)

 

I guess what I was trying to say (rather ineffectively - work turns the brain to mush) is that I'd rather have the Medical Mart happen and pay the crappy tax than see it go to another city.  Then hopefully we can work on getting the jokes out of public office.

I am for the tax, and even the way they are getting it done. 

What I really want to see is that if the Merch mart people do run the convention center that there is gaurneteed revenue from it, based on a percentage of revenue (or something.)

BUT, there has to be a minimum fee paid to the county, even if it is $10,000/yr, there can not be another arraingement like the Cavs lease at Gateway.

 

(this sounds like a Karl Rove type campaign.  "I am not saying that MayDay hates Gateway, he probably just does not like it because he just hates Cleveland, family values, and puppies.) :)

I think there also may be reservations about whether this money will be earmarked exclusively to the convention center and the medical mart. The Commissioners have been pretty clear that the funds raised by the quarter-cent tax increase (the minimum increment allowed under state law) will likely exceed the total expenses associated with bonds for the Medical Mart and convention center facilities. I, for one, would like to have a clearer understanding of where surplus funds will go. I would rather, for instance, see the funds pumped back into financial incentives for recruitment or creation of medical supplier businesses in the county or to pay down the debt service early, rather than to see it go toward demolition of the Breuer Tower or any other blank-check initiative the Commissioners would favor.

 

It might also be nice to see an independent board providing some fiscal oversight of the project ... preferably one with members who do not have any kind of financial interest in the project.

 

I'm sold on the concept of the Medical Mart. I would rather see them expend the energy they're spending on campaign marketing on solidifying a strategy for maximizing the effectiveness, efficiency and transparency of the effort.

Is Tim Hagan the Emperor?

^8shades, where you get off bringing this topic back within the realm of logical debate??

Is Tim Hagan the Emperor?

 

And Dimora is Jabba the Hut.

I'm all for the tax increase to pay for the Medical Mart.  In return, however, I feel that the County should receive a % cut of the profits.  I know, it's a dream that'll never happen.  It's pretty disingenuous to have taxpayers subsidize creation of this private entity's profits.  We deserve a cut in return.  That would make the tax increase more of a loan rather than a handout.  Sadly, our politicians are not savvy or intelligent enough to propose such a solution. 

 

I can see your point, but I believe this would be enough of a boost to our economy that we would all receive a payout of sorts in that regard.

Okay, I suppose 8Shades had to pull us back on topic... :roll:

 

;-)

Hey now, I'm the Payne Avenue Pollyanna ... just trying to turn this crazy fight around with a smile

WCPN:

 

First Public Hearing on Sales Tax Hike Today

 

Aired: Thursday, July 19

 

Cuyahoga County Commissioners will hold the first of two public hearings on a proposed sales tax hike today. The increase would finance a new convention center linked to a medical mart. But the plans have spurred a debate over funding for public-private ventures and it has raised questions about exactly how a new facility could boost the region's economy. ideastream's economics reporter Tasha Flournoy has this preview of the argument.

 

Listen to 'First Public Hearing on Sales Tax Hike Today'[mp3=200,20,0,center]http://www.wcpn.org/mp3/2007/07/0719mart.mp3[/mp3]

 

 

 

 

Did anyone go?

 

 

I'm one to say, build a larger convention center over the shoreway, close the IX center quick fast and a hurry.  Bring the folks from the IX center in to run the new downtown Cleveland convention center.

 

if the IX center remains open, it will continue to steal business away from downtown, making it harder to bring in better hotels, dining options and spin off business.

I went...and ALL it was was Chris Kennedy presenting the same ppt presentation that is on the website someone posted a few pages back.  After the long ppt, there was a Q/A session, well, Question session, because the commissioners only answered like 3 of the 40+ persons who posed questions / comments.  I am in support of this tax and the medical mart proposal, but it was pretty disgusting to see people passionately pour their heart out, either for or against this thing, and no one respond to them.  Tim Hagan's lame response was, "if we responded to questions we'd be here all day."  The questions were recorded for the record...but what the he!! is a public hearing for if you don't get responses to your questions?! Fake citizen participation...that will drive more people to oppose this project, IMO.

"Tim Hagan's lame response was, "if we responded to questions we'd be here all day."

 

And that smug arrogance will be his (and if he doesn't shape up, the proposed sales tax) undoing.

No, it won't.  He's a Democrat in a town that knows how to vote no other way.  The best we can hope for re: the future of Cleveland is for him to move to NYC with his wife.

pd:

 

Medical Mart's future tied to increased tax, possible ballot

Friday, July 20, 2007

Joan Mazzolini

Plain Dealer Reporter

 

The president of Merchandise Mart Properties told 300 mostly supportive people Thursday that a Medical Mart would help Cleveland's economy by creating new jobs - from entry level to high-paying - and would revitalize and rebrand the region as a place to be.

 

But Chris Kennedy cautioned after his presentation that competitors could snatch the idea and business opportunity away from Cleveland if things don't happen fast.

 

Kennedy spoke at the first of two public hearings on a plan by Cuyahoga County commissioners to raise the sales tax by a quarter of a penny to help bring the Medical Mart to Cleveland...

 

 

more at:  http://www.cleveland.com

No, it won't.  He's a Democrat in a town that knows how to vote no other way.  The best we can hope for re: the future of Cleveland is for him to move to NYC with his wife.

 

I'm not inclined to agree. Just because we don't have a lot of Republican firepower locally doesn't mean elected seats aren't contested ... they just get decided in primaries instead of generals. Just ask Tim McCormack, a Democrat, who lost his seat to Hagan, a Democrat.

 

Frankly, I don't find this type of forum reassuring at all. I generally agree with the concept, I generally think the commissioners have good intentions for the county, but the more I hear, the more I'm struck by an exasperation from Hagan and Dimora for democratic processes, if not outright disdain. Maybe I'm selling them short, but dismissing opportunities for public input does not exactly make me more confident that these funds will be spent wisely or with any avenue for citizen review.

 

 

I hope the typical Cleveland area red tape doesn't send Medical mart packing for a place like Pittsburgh!!!  I am scared that the usual routine will take place and we will end up with nothing at all.

I hope the typical Cleveland area red tape doesn't send Medical mart packing for a place like Pittsburgh!!!   I am scared that the usual routine will take place and we will end up with nothing at all.

I think that type of attitude and the "what about the neighborhoods" talk will come up.  However, if the PD and Media outlets all form a media alliance and send the proper message.  We should not have a problem.

 

 

8SoG, I agree with, and countless others, regarding the perceived attitudes of Hagan and Dimora.

 

I'm having a hard time wording this, But I will try.

On one hand we moan and complain because our politicians don't get anything done. There is to much power struggles and concern with each one's "constituency" and no vision for the the greater good of all. We cry because we do not have a leader... our version of NYC's Bloomberg, whoever. (We sort of did with Mike White, but at a cost).

 

On the other hand, when we do see a politician start taking charge... well, everyone cries again.

 

I don't know. Is this making sense?

 

I get pissed when I hear people say "hey we need to vote on this, you can't blah, blah, blah."

IDIOTS.... Wake Up!!!

You did vote on it.

The commissioners are doing exactly what we decide they should do.

 

 

I'm just rambling now - I will stop.

 

I think that totally makes sense. I for one am not suggesting any process that would be obstructionist. But when citizens do provide elected officials with latitude to make decisions and take stands, I think it behooves them to assure an adequate level of transparency and accountability, particularly when investing tax dollars into private endeavors. Frankly, and this is just one man's opinion, my belief is that the time pressure being applied by the Medical Mart folks is part of the overall PR campaign on this issue ... a way for the Commissioners to say "We had to apply the sales tax quickly. We didn't have time to set up standards of review or to provide additional analysis. If we didn't act fast, they may have gone elsewhere."

 

It just makes me a little uneasy that numbers of visitors are being inflated without any publicly available research on how these numbers were reached, there has been little to no discussion of how the revenues would be managed and the commissioners are planning to vote on the topic less than a week after opening it up to public opinion. I'm all for strong leadership but hasty does not necessarily equal strong.

I am glad to see that the unions are for it.  If they were not, they would have the organization to get the signatures to put the issue on the ballot.

 

oooo pittsburg . There not going to pittsburg. Gateway ,browns stadium,rock and roll hall of fame all Publicly finance. THis is unterrly stupid,to think a company that has a location in the hills of North carolina is going to produce anything big.  Open your eyes and read the fine print.  all the jobs the are going to create are already here.Just now someone else is going to make the money

 

  Here is how the this thing is being panned out. Ratner wants to sell tower city.Needs a the convention center to make his numbers a reality (6 milliom visitors a year.) so he fills a empty building higbees with a cut rate rentt to medical mart .  He then sells his place( union terminal) at hamsome gain and we get a seldom used convetion center on the river. while we have a another convetion center sitting around. Then we modify the other convention center and and the new one falls inthe river in 10 years . Now we dont have a true convention. Now the tax is extended and we take the old one back and rededicate as the cleveland convetion center. :shoot: :shoot: :wink2: :drunk:

 

  Look if they want to up the  tax - up the tax for a subway system in cleveland. thats all

 

I :box:

 

I hope the typical Cleveland area red tape doesn't send Medical mart packing for a place like Pittsburgh!!!  I am scared that the usual routine will take place and we will end up with nothing at all.

I think that type of attitude and the "what about the neighborhoods" talk will come up.  However, if the PD and Media outlets all form a media alliance and send the proper message.  We should not have a problem.

 

 

No, it won't.  He's a Democrat in a town that knows how to vote no other way.  The best we can hope for re: the future of Cleveland is for him to move to NYC with his wife.

 

Remember it is a county wide vote rather than a city vote.  Jim Petro ® held the seat for a number of years.....

 

As for the neighborhoods vs. downtown vs. rest of county I expect some of the excess money will be used for some BS thing like "targeted economic development" bla bla bla in neighborhoods and inner ring suburbs.

 

This has been discussed for several years now about MM coming to Cleveland.  What does a couple more months mean to get it on the ballot to vote.  The issue is if they go through with whatever the commissioners decide in closed door meetings, the public can be kept in the dark.  They can go ahead and also say well geez we had to act fast on the location because Forest City was going to turn that area into a large parking deck.  PLJ likes the idea of it going to a vote and he also supports the concept of MM in Cleveland.

 

There really needs to be a full study with what they now know about the MM and how much space they need and how much it will cost to build a new CC vs. renovating/modernizing/enlarging the current facility and tacking on the MM.  Nobody has said they're against the MM.  Its just the ambivalence that we all see the handwriting on the wall that backroom agreements will push for everything to fall into Forest City's lap.  Whats the point of drawing up 5-10-20-50 year plans in Cleveland if the pols aren't going to stay with the vision?

Study this study that.  How many times do small business people make decisions based on studies?  The answer: not often.

 

In life (particularly business life) there are no guarantees, many times you have to go with your gut and then work extra hard to make sure you prove your gut right.

 

People (politicians, businessmen, laymen) in Cleveland need to start thinking more agressively and more often go with their positive gut instinct.  In my opinion, no matter how you look at this, your gut has to tell you that it makes positive sense.

 

Can things be done better?  Sure, they always can, but it takes time to do that and Cleveland does not have time.  So, you have to make the decision, move forward and work hard as heck to make sure you maximize it.

 

I guaran-freakin-tee you that Maron and the folks building Stonebridge did not wait months and months for a study to tell them that the West Bank and East 4th could turn out the way they have.  If they did, they would probably still be waiting, 'cause I bet that 9/10 studies would have said: Invest your money elsewhere!

 

Yet they did it and look at how it has turned out.  Their gut, their hard work and their vision has taken them places that those waiting for a study are still conceptualizing.

 

Those that say it can't be done (or need a study to find out if it is possible to do it) need to get out of the way of those doing it.

 

 

 

^Except those doing it (in the case of Med Mart) are using my money, which I would be fine with. What I'm not fine with is they don't have a good track record of spending it well. If Maron (or another competent developer) was in charge of the Med Mart/Convention Center, I'd be thrilled!

From the PD:

 

Convention Center sales tax would end in 20 years

Posted by Joan Mazzolini

July 20, 2007 13:09PM

Categories: Breaking News

 

In an effort to boost support for a sales tax hike to build a convention center and bring a Medical Mart to Cleveland, County Commissioners today put limitations on the plan.

 

Commissioners Jimmy Dimora and Timothy F. Hagan announced that the quarter of a penny sales tax will expire after no more than 20 years and will be used exclusively for the center - no other county operations or projects ...

 

... More at http://blog.cleveland.com/metro/2007/07/convention_center_sales_tax_wo.html

Now that's a little more like it!

Yep. Now just give me my independent board of oversight and I'm completely on board  :lol:

Commissioners also will instruct those putting together the deal to bring a Medical Mart here to limit the cost of a 400,000 square foot convention center, including land and construction, to $450 million.

 

Add into that...any cost overruns will be the responsiblity of the developer

You can be sure that in any kind of business venture/city development everyone is always using other people's money.

 

It may be in the form of loans, grants, venture capital, bonds, tax incentives, tax increases...one way or another it is someone else's money.

 

I can tell you one thing, I didn't vote for Hagan...and I certainly don't agree with his stand on the Bruer (hope I have the name right) building, but on this, when the MM is going to invest their own money and bring in their own people...it is a no-brainer.  The same way that Gateway and RRHOF were no-brainers...no matter how they exactly turned out.

 

Anyway, in Cleveland, what we should be thinking about isn't how do <b>they</b> get this new convention center filled up.  We should be thinking how do <b>we</b> get it filled up.  For example, we could start an organization (or expand urbanohio.com) that promotes correct urban development and grow it by having trade shows every year in our spanking new convention center...

 

MayDay, I'm not living in Cleveland right now, but if you or anyone here started that I would do my darndest to attend.

 

Or, we could wait for a study to tell us whether that idea is worthy or not.

 

 

Eh, its a billion dollars worth of development.. Stick it in the Flats.  There's plenty of parking down there and besides those salesguys love strippers...  :drunk:

OK, Timmy & Jimmy have given their assurances -- at the behest of a number of burb mayors -- esp the spending (for this project, only) limitation clause.  We're talking a sales tax of 25 cents on every $100 of sales -- not very much for most people and most transactions.  Hunting Valley, Westlake, Solon, Shaker & Cleveland, alike, will pay... and, oh yeah, if we keep getting more tourist in town, they will pay just like those of us living here...

 

Yeah, I'm not wild about the players here, but let's stop the usual Cleveland hemming and hawing and risk losing this seemingly can't miss project.  Downtown is picking up biz-wise and this would put us on a roll, not to mention further tying into our greatest economic and prestige/high profile strength right now: our medical industry... Let's get this thing done and end the hand wringing.

 

The only people I've seen really complaining are the Cleveland-area blog types.

http://www.cleveland.com/news/plaindealer/index.ssf?/base/cuyahoga/118500697385591.xml&coll=2

 

Medical Mart sales tax hike would be limited to 20 years

Convention center would be sole recipient

Saturday, July 21, 2007

Joan Mazzolini

Plain Dealer Reporter

 

A planned sales tax hike to help bring a Medical Mart to Cleveland would end in 20 years and could be used only to build a convention center.

 

Cuyahoga County Commissioners Jimmy Dimora and Timothy F. Hagan announced the limitations Friday in an effort to boost support for a quarter of a penny sales tax hike.

 

Commissioners also told those negotiating a deal to bring a Medical Mart here that they are willing to pay about $450 million for land and construction of a 400,000-square-foot convention center...

Hurray!! Progress towards a medical mart!

"It makes me more comfortable with it," Jones said. "It's more appetizing, but I'm still resisting the bite."

 

This guy is an opportunist.  I bet he will be the guy with the big scissors when they cut the ribbon on the new convention center

I disagree, PLJ is the only commission with some sense!

740 million dollars)20 year tax at 37 million a year) minus 110 million(mant.) = 630 million dollars. Ok it cost us 450 million.

SO thats 630 million minus 450 million =

190 million dollars . Now thats bowl of crap.

Where is the other 190 million dollars going too.

 

A Gymnasium in collinwood whats in the range of 5000 square feet  cost 1.9 million dollars to build

So a 500,000 square foot hall would cost 190 million dollars.

 

 

Like I said Ratner is running the show,while the mayor Jackson is a loser. Dimora and Hagan are the communist

 

 

I want Mayor Tom Johnson back

 

Another thing about these jobs.Medical mart is only going to produce 5 to 10 jobs. ALl the other jobs are just being moved from university circle to downtown. Atleast 4 times a week the cleveland clinic has between 50 to 80 sales people in there hospital selling medical devices.

 

Another thing about these jobs.Medical mart is only going to produce 5 to 10 jobs. ALl the other jobs are just being moved from university circle to downtown. Atleast 4 times a week the cleveland clinic has between 50 to 80 sales people in there hospital selling medical devices.

 

Please explain your projected job numbers. 

 

Edisou, do you understand the purpose of this facility?

 

Again, this is not about the Cleveland Clinic!  I could be wrong, I would think that 50/80 sales folks you're talking about, are (cleveland clinic sales people) in the Clinic for quarterly sales meetings, discussin what revenue they have brought into the clinic.  Not sales shows hosted by the clinic where they are looking to buy products/services. 

 

This would be a hub of medical services for various industries:  wholesale, retail and on occasion consumer.  This facility would house permanent showrooms from manufacturers, companies, from the entire medical field.  For example, You would have medical furniture, medical furnishing, medical apparel, medical technology, medical office management; medical billing suppliers operating showrooms 24/7.  

 

The facility will be able to host and produce new shows and increase the amount of conferences & conventions already coming to Cleveland.

i really enjoyed the 100 gymnasium math........

Me too. Edsiou is entertaining, if nothing else. Better not ban him, or I'm going to Cleveland.com for my daily "WHHATT?"

blah blah blah.

 

 

  Job numbers= 10 jobs to run the the whole show.Management.

 

  This facility is for exhibition.

 

  The fifty to eighty sales people are medical devices comapnies that want to sell there product to the clinic. Every producer of product must sell there product to a user. Take for example Philips makes a few dif. x ray maichine,so they set a sales meeting at the clinic with  head of radilology.and push there product. Now there are over 15 departments at the clinic.SO each has four to  five sales man come in to sell a product withing there department.Do you understand???

 

I think the clinic and university host between 40 to 50 conference at the omni hotel on medical advances,etc. 

 

  I am just saying there is right now a building within walking distance of the present day convention center that is right ready to renovated.

 

 

 

Another thing about these jobs.Medical mart is only going to produce 5 to 10 jobs. ALl the other jobs are just being moved from university circle to downtown. Atleast 4 times a week the cleveland clinic has between 50 to 80 sales people in there hospital selling medical devices.

 

Please explain your projected job numbers.

 

Edisou, do you understand the purpose of this facility?

 

Again, this is not about the Cleveland Clinic!  I could be wrong, I would think that 50/80 sales folks you're talking about, are (cleveland clinic sales people) in the Clinic for quarterly sales meetings, discussin what revenue they have brought into the clinic.  Not sales shows hosted by the clinic where they are looking to buy products/services. 

 

This would be a hub of medical services for various industries:  wholesale, retail and on occasion consumer.  This facility would house permanent showrooms from manufacturers, companies, from the entire medical field.  For example, You would have medical furniture, medical furnishing, medical apparel, medical technology, medical office management; medical billing suppliers operating showrooms 24/7. 

 

The facility will be able to host and produce new shows and increase the amount of conferences & conventions already coming to Cleveland.

please for the love of god find me any facility that is 300,000 Sq feet (or whatever size this ends up being) that takes only 10 people to run....

i really enjoyed the 100 gymnasium math........

 

Its reality a exhibit hall is just a gymnasium. with out a set of hoops. :drunk:

 

 

Thank you .  matter of speaking how many people are getting the hands greased with my money.

  The great transportation mind Profesor Melis,head of the barcelona transportation. States that you dont need advisor advising advisor,and consultant consulting consultants.  :? :? :? :-o :? :? :?