Is walking across the square really that much of a difference.

 

When I attend or my staff scouts conventions/conference space, convenience is a nice but its not the determing factor.  If I'm in a city I'm going to go to a restaurant regardless of the location.  We have stuff in DC all the time, its not in a location with tons of restaurants, so I go to dupont, georgetown or else to eat.

The CC is located convieniently to TC, E4th, Erieview and the WHD.  

 

So we should throw out the current spot, because TC has two hotels attached although we're going to pay dearly in the long run and end up with a location thats outdated....once again??

 

MTS, how could the Marriott expand? There's no setback from the sidewalk other than the porte cochere.

 

I could have sworn that the Marriott was built to be expandable going up.

Suuuure, just pop off the top, remove all the HVAC equipment (hotel guests don't need A/C or heat) and chuck a few dozen more stories onto the thing! :wtf:

 

From cleveland.com - reason #52356 that Peter Lawson Jones has earned my respect:

 

Medical Mart is a great idea, but the sales tax is the wrong way to pay for it

 

Wednesday, July 25, 2007

Peter Lawson Jones

The proposed Medical Mart/ Con vention Center clearly offers great promise. When the roll is called on the resolution to raise the sales tax to pay for the construction of the complex, it would be gratifying to be able to vote, "yes."

 

Given our rising prominence as an international health care center and our numerous downtown tourist-oriented destinations, I am convinced that the Medical Mart project would infuse a welcome dose of economic vitality into our community. Unfortunately, I cannot support the pending resolution.

 

More at cleveland.com

http://www.cleveland.com/news/plaindealer/othercolumns/index.ssf?/base/opinion/1185352416235720.xml&coll=2

From cleveland.com - reason #52356 that Peter Lawson Jones has earned my respect:

 

AGREED!

^That's all fine and good, but the mart is not going to wait around for Cleveland to get their act together.  Dont just write it on paper, do something, impose something and get it done.  I don't care wht PLJ wants to do, tell me what you are going to do.  And I want to hear it from all the commissionors and city leaders, not just one of them.  i went to hear it from a group of leaders that work together and make up their minds.  Sorry, but I am losing faith in the mart coming to Cleveland.  Maybe I am just angry after reading this, and it's not what PLJ said, its's the disagreement.  Whats the point in Dimora and hagen speaking up a couple weeks ago about an increase ion sales tax if it might not even be imposed.  And to say hotels would reap the benefits, try all residents of NE Ohio would reap the benifits of this.

Also, if we are so big on regionalism thinking, maybe it's about time the we in-state a county/regional mayor that makes the ultimate decision on countywide/regionalwide issues.  This, iwould have to say would be the most pro-active way in getting things done.  If that were the case, we wouldn't sit around and fight about the Ameritrust tower being torn down, countywide tax increases etc.  I am sick of listening to three people fight.  You may hate the persons decisions, or you may embrace the person for the good decisions.  Who's the boss on this, and how can you stop these people from bickering.  I could only imagine if we had three different mayors running the city of three different belief systems.  Imagine how bad off we would be today.

^So you're calling for dictatorship.

^its hard to call for one when we already have one.

If what Lawson says is true, no one will be waiting around for us to get our act together. I personally believe that a sales tax without private-sector contributions is not an example of us getting our act together.

You know... it is interesting to hear people talk about the Gateway project not doing what it promised. If anything the last playoffs to hit Cleveland just a couple of months ago...show that it has.

 

Just 10 years ago (1997), when the Indians were playing for the championship, the Gateway Neighborhood had the follow:

• 7 restaurants
  
• 36 residential units
  
• 0 hotels!
  

 

Since then...There has been over 300 million dollars worth of investment in the district. Today Gateway Neighborhood has:

• 31 full service restaurants (with 6 more on the way)
  
• 729 residential Units
  
• 6 hotels
  

 

In addition to that investment, just look at the difference between Downtown Cleveland during the Playoffs and the city of any other team we played against (with maybe the exception of Washington). New Jersey, Auburn Hills, and San Antonio all have arena's in the middle of parking lots.....their playoff games didn't even come close to generating the kind of impact that ours had because of the Q's location in the heart of the city. Even our away games generated sell outs and thousands cramming into Downtown to be a part of the excitement. That is a unique impact that Gateway has provided. We see these impacts everyday...but we so easily forget what our city was before this project happened. Now, we can't even imagine Downtown without the complex.

 

If sports could have that much of an impact, how much more would a concrete economic engine of a Medical Mart provide? This opportunity is at our door step and the direction is clear, Cleveland and the Medical Mart are a perfect match.....we should build this Convention Center.

 

To the point on where the center should be built. The reason that i say...Tower City....is that it connects so many assets. But above most, it connects an asset that is largely forgotten because of its larger more visible brother....the Cuyahoga River. Everyone talks about lakefront access...."why can't we do what Chicago did!"

Chicago...

Chicago...

Chicago.

 

No doubt Lakefront access is very important and should be expanded (and sooner than 50 years from now...but that is a different story). However, a group of European planners came to Cleveland recently and did a case study on Cleveland and its development. What they said, was surprising to alot of people....but it makes sense. They said that our greatest asset was the river, not the lake. Cleveland's entire history has revolved around the river. The first settlers, industry, travel, recreation, and the growth of the city all have started at the river. The river and the Flats connect several districts: Ohio City, Tremont, Downtown....if we develop the convention center along the river and provide an anchor from which we can further develop the flats...we will do far more good than any other location in the city.

 

Just look at all the pieces. Just down the road from the proposed Tower City site, the new Canal Basin Park will be established (just a couple years away from development). This park is twice as large as Public Square and will create the beginning of the Towpath and a huge park between Settlers landing and Columbus Rd. The Towpath will run across a large swath of the Scranton Penisula....providing an excellent green anchor for residential development along the river's edge. Sherwin Williams just recently sold land along the river that is just a parking lot...and the word on the street is that this will become a development of Condo's. Plus you have the added advantage that Tower City provides with the Mall, connected hotels, connected access to the Federal Courthouse, connection to the hub for public transportation, proximity to Gateway, close proximity to the highways, etc. Any other spot doesn't provide that kind of connectivity.

 

If the center is built on the site of the existing convention center (even though it is municipally owned), it doesn't provide a large enough footprint. Plus the fact that you would only have 3 hotels in proximity (none have indoor connectivity to the new center), not a great amount of retail (virtually none), and it doesn't help to connect districts....rather it helps further the classic Cleveland problem of developing "nodes" of activity that aren't connected.

 

Tower City provides synergy....synergy is what we need more of.

 

 

Suuuure, just pop off the top, remove all the HVAC equipment (hotel guests don't need A/C or heat) and chuck a few dozen more stories onto the thing! :wtf:

 

 

MayDay I'm serious.  I cannot find where I read that, but IIRC the hotel was built so that in the event future floors could be added to the top.  The current top has a blank floor or slab or something special support.  This would allow for the mechanicals to be placed there and additional floors added.  I'll continue to look for the information.  I remember this cause the property was still under construction and we asked why its only 26 floors.  

^its hard to call for one when we already have one.

What do you mean by that?  Is there a person that ultimately makes the decision, or is it a vote amongst them. 

If the center is built on the site of the existing convention center (even though it is municipally owned), it doesn't provide a large enough footprint. Plus the fact that you would only have 3 hotels in proximity (none have indoor connectivity to the new center), not a great amount of retail (virtually none), and it doesn't help to connect districts....rather it helps further the classic Cleveland problem of developing "nodes" of activity that aren't connected.

 

Tower City provides synergy....synergy is what we need more of.

 

 

 

the new foot print lowers the floor, raises the roof and extends north to include a new mall D with a connection to CBS.  There would a hotel to the west and the east.

 

How is that foot print to small with no direct hotel connections?

 

from the convention authority's website

An area for a 600-room headquarters hotel with direct indoor access to the convention center’s main registration lobby also had to be included in the building layouts.

 

So, what approach to financing do I offer? The proper funding must first include a private-sector commitment of at least half its cost, derived from landowner concessions, facility naming and pouring rights, corporate donations (both monetary and in-kind) and other nonpublic funds. Otherwise, there is no real "private" in this proposed private-public partnership

 

Furthermore, a bipartisan coalition of business, political, civic and health care leaders must aggressively lobby the governor and the state legislature for additional financing options. We should request substantial capital budget support, as well as local authority to raise the real estate conveyance fee and increase the local sales tax in increments of 1/8 cent as opposed to 1/4 cent.

 

So what in the past few years since he has been a commissioner has he done to make this happen?  Maybe because he is still a full time lawyer and only a part time commissioner.

What exactly has this guy done other than complain about what other people are doing, and show up for some media events?

The more this guy talks, the more I don't like him.  He reminds me of a Kucinich, willing to let the community slide if it means he can score some political points.

Punch, if anything he has been the voice of reason.

 

So what in the past few years since he has been a commissioner has he done to make this happen?  Maybe because he is still a full time lawyer and only a part time commissioner.

 

I don't understand that statement at all.

I thought it was public knowledge that he never quit his job as a lawyer, and works for the firm full time.  I will double check with my lawyerly friends on that one who work with him.  (so at this point consider it unsubstantiated)

 

However, is the convention center a new issue?  He makes it seam that he has great ideas, but no way of impelmenting them.  He could have lead the drive to sell naming rights, pouring rights, etc, through the CC commission.  He could also be the point man on lobbying Columbus on reducing the minimum tax from .25% to .125%. 

It just seems like, no matter how eloquently he state it, he is just more content to let processes play out, then he could run to the media and complain about it.  Rather than working to make the initial outcome more toward his vision.

^I think what he is saying is PLJ works for a law firm and doesn't devote all of his time to being a county commissionor.

I am with Punch on this.  Not that PLJ is a bad person, but the commissionors spoke a couple weeks ago on what they were going to do and it was made public knowledge.  Lets just do it instead of adding fuel to the fire for more debating while the medical mart people sit back in Chicago and laugh at us until they say...NEXT.

I thought it was public knowledge that he never quit his job as a lawyer, and works for the firm full time.  I will double check with my lawyerly friends on that one who work with him.  (so at this point consider it unsubstantiated)

 

However, is the convention center a new issue?  He makes it seam that he has great ideas, but no way of impelmenting them.  He could have lead the drive to sell naming rights, pouring rights, etc, through the CC commission.  He could also be the point man on lobbying Columbus on reducing the minimum tax from .25% to .125%. 

It just seems like, no matter how eloquently he state it, he is just more content to let processes play out, then he could go to the media and complain about it.  Rather than working to make the initial outcome more toward his vision.

 

Punch, think about the word "seems".  I'm not picking a fight with you but from where we sit, how do we really know what PLJ is doing behind the scene with the mayor, the Governor or other elected officials.

 

I get the feeling he and the other commissioners are trying to keep their battles behind closed doors.  Personally, I feel he has been honest with us and is the commissioner I trust.

 

He may not be an innovator, but he gives us all the information and I feel he has our overall best interest at heart.

^tell me what he has done, rather than what he has talked about

 

 

EDIT: OK, I just REALLY hate when politicians write op-ed letters.  I am personally dropping the subject of PLJ.

^^Also, he has not kept his arguement behind closed doors (like he should) considering there is a Plain Dealer article above for anyone to read basically saying that he disagrees with his colleagues.

Ummm, keeping previous discussions and planning behind closed doors is why there is so much f#cking skepticism about this project. I find his honesty and openness a lot more valuable than Hagan's avoiding scrutiny and shooting down anyone who dares question him.

The Commissioners are hiding behind the time line on this one....when they are the reason for this "sneaking" up as an opportunity!

 

Over a year ago, the Commissioners got a group of people together (including reps from Forest City and Sherwin Williams) to help the county attract a medical mart here. In the Spring of 06, the rep in charge of the group (from Forest City) came back to Dimora and told them that they had the Medical Mart ready and waiting.....Dimora's response.....he said that he couldn't do anything at the time because it was an election year. I have very good friend that heard this story directly from the Forest City reps mouth. In frustration, the private sector team that had pulled together in order to attract the medical mart....walked away.

 

They knew about this deal for over a year! And they just thrust this upon us now. I agree with all of you on the sales tax being regressive....i don't like it at all. Dimora knew this would be an unpopular decision, but instead of jumping on the gun right away (when we could have had time to debate this more thoroughly) he sat on his hands until it was best for him.

 

The fact is...we don't have time now to debate. I don't like the tax hike, but this project's positives still far outweigh the negativity of the tax. The unfortunate decision that i have had to make is this:

• There are very few projects/laws/issues that i am 100% for or against. My support for this project is at about 60 - 70%....there is a good portion of me that knows there is a better way....but i realize that we don't have the luxury of time any more. Passing a tax that is only a quarter of a percent (even if it is not the best way) is better than the alternative of us losing this opportunity to Boston or Pittsburgh (two cities salivating over the chance to land this)
  
• 
  

The Commissioners are hiding behind the time line on this one....when they are the reason for this "sneaking" up as an opportunity!

 

Over a year ago, the Commissioners got a group of people together (including reps from Forest City and Sherwin Williams) to help the county attract a medical mart here. In the Spring of 06, the rep in charge of the group (from Forest City) came back to Dimora and told them that they had the Medical Mart ready and waiting.....Dimora's response.....he said that he couldn't do anything at the time because it was an election year. I have very good friend that heard this story directly from the Forest City reps mouth. In frustration, the private sector team that had pulled together in order to attract the medical mart....walked away.

 

They knew about this deal for over a year! And they just thrust this upon us now. I agree with all of you on the sales tax being regressive....i don't like it at all. Dimora knew this would be an unpopular decision, but instead of jumping on the gun right away (when we could have had time to debate this more thoroughly) he sat on his hands until it was best for him.

 

The fact is...we don't have time now to debate. I don't like the tax hike, but this project's positives still far outweigh the negativity of the tax. The unfortunate decision that i have had to make is this:

• There are very few projects/laws/issues that i am 100% for or against. My support for this project is at about 60 - 70%....there is a good portion of me that knows there is a better way....but i realize that we don't have the luxury of time any more. Passing a tax that is only a quarter of a percent (even if it is not the best way) is better than the alternative of us losing this opportunity to Boston or Pittsburgh (two cities salivating over the chance to land this)
  
• 
  

 

I agree with your thought process.

urban manna,

 

You have outlined a summary of the development in the Gateway area that I have thought about for some time.  How can people say that the Gateway project did not produce the economic development that it promised??!!!  I totally agree with your summary.  Can anyone imagine what that entire area of downtown Cleveland would be like today?  Does anyone remember the abandoned buildings, slum dwellings, etc.  Without Jacobs Field and the Q, downtown Cleveland would be ??? 

 

I think the bigger issue regarding the Medical Mart and other projects, is that we have become a region that is not willing to take chances on ideas.  As I write this I am currently in Seattle, WA and this is an area that is willing to take chances.  Believe me, there are plenty of nay sayers, but they are usually over ruled, and creative projects go forward.  A city like Seattle may be successful on only 50% of their development plans, but that puts them way ahead of cities that make no attempt at success.

I forgot to mention in the last post that I live in Cleveland and I am in Seattle on Business.

 

the new foot print lowers the floor, raises the roof and extends north to include a new mall D with a connection to CBS.  There would a hotel to the west and the east.

 

How is that foot print to small with no direct hotel connections?

 

from the convention authority's website

An area for a 600-room headquarters hotel with direct indoor access to the convention center’s main registration lobby also had to be included in the building layouts.

 

MyTwoSense,

 

Are you talking about the proposal to bridge over the railroad tracks? I recently had a discussion with someone about that proposal because i used to be in support of building the convention center there. However, i was told that there are two main hindrances to placing the new convention center there. 1) The cost of building that land bridge over the tracks is something like $200/square foot (i'll have to double check on those numbers)....and that is just for the infrastructure to support the buildings. In a sense you are constructing a similiar "stilted" building complex like Tower City. 2) Because of the change in security guidlines since 9-11, it is against code to have a public building built over existing rail lines. Tower City is fine because it was Grandfathered in.

 

I do think that the creation of another mall that extending to the lakefront woud be compelling. Everyone knows i'm a sucker for green space.....it is just cost prohibative.

RE: PLJ's editorial and the resulting posts.

 

It is still possible to implement all of PLJ's ideas - and they are great ideas. But, as was implied by many in the post that follow, MM will not wait for Cleveland/Cuyahoga to get its act together creating naming right, pouring rights, etc.

That is why the .25% tax is the correct revenue stream for the moment. This shows MM that we are committed to this project and are willing to do what it takes to get things started.

Amazingly, the other two commissioners have tweaked their original plan to allow for changes in it when different revenue sources are identified. There is also verbage that will rescind the tax if paid off early.

 

So why not accept the tax now to get the ball rolling and then work feverishly to implement PLJ's proposals that will allow for an early tax cut.

^that sounds logical

Really?!?

 

Wow, my wife would laugh in your face if she heard you say that about something i said.

Hmmm, I must be getting smarter. No doubt from reading post on UO.

^Musky, you are right.  I believe in a vote by the people, but in this case, it would be too big of a gamble.  The track record for votes such as these in Cuyahoga county is not good enough to put it on the ballot, and I think they know that.  If a shool levy in Strongsville can't pass, I don't see why a tax increase for this would either.  Turn it down, and we don't get the center plain and simple.  it goes to Pittsburgh....ughhh. 

Read this on WKYC website.  If they OK it, what does that mean?  Can they begin to implement it after they give petition goers long enough time to try to get signatures.  I think the county should prepare the verbage that petition goers need to say when seeking signatures. 

 

CLEVELAND -- Thursday Cuyahoga Couty Commissioners will okay a one quarter percent sales tax hike to pay for a new convention center linked to a medical mart.

A Medical Mart would be a showcase for medical products attracting visitors from around the country and the world.

 

The tax would boost the price of a $100 pair of shoes by 25 cents and a $20,000 car by $50.

 

More at wkyc.com

If this thing goes on the ballot, it's toast. I don't see the average citizen understanding the economic benefits of a MM. All they see is another tax increase for something they may never visit.

Agreed, if this makes the ballot then MM is definitely doomed.  Libertarians, Green Party and Republicans all agreeing on something??  just goes to reinforce to me that putting it on the ballot must be a bad idea.  Someone needs to start a web site called dontputitontheballot.com.

^Maybe not, remember it is a county wide vote, and I think people realize the potential of the medical field in Cleveland.

 

I am actually glad people are trying, but I hope that they do not get enough signatures because people decide not to sign.  Which is a very passive type of vote.

Why does the pd keep saying it will be in March to go on the ballot?  Aren't they shooting for November??  They have until late August to get it on the ballot. That makes sense if we make MM wait until March they'll go elsewhere..  November should be doable...

Maybe not, remember it is a county wide vote, and I think people realize the potential of the medical field in Cleveland.

 

I think being that it is a county wide vote makes it all the more likely that it will not pass. Does Agnes out in North Royalton want another tax increase for something in Cleveland?

^History has shown that a tax increase is more likely if it is a county wide vote.  If I recall, the Gateway sin tax failed in the city but passed with 53%.

I would be worried.  I'd like more media coverage on the overall benefits that promote the MM in a positive light.

 

I am not confident people realize that

A:  What a facility like the MM does

B:  The overall benefit of having the MM to the growing medical business sector

C:  The avantage of having a new CC in the heart of downtown

D:  That is a positive for the entire county, not only a "Cleveland thing"

 

sigh....

^Actually MTS, I am pretty impressed with the positive light the media has put on the benifits of having the MM.  It's suprising to hear around the workplace how many people actually know what the MM is and that they want to connect it to a new convention center.  In the past, with the way the media is, people would have been saying, "hey, did you hear that Cuyahoga County wants to raise the sales tax .25 percent...what a joke."  When in actuality, most people know why they want to raise it and the benefits.  I think the big argument here is not being able to vote for the increase.  I am on the fence as if it would pass or not I guess.  Maybe people would vote yes, but they are just complaining that they are proposing not to give that option.  I am willing to take the safe track though which is, just raise the tax and tell the MM people when they can move in.  Everyone's happy, you will forget what the sales tax in Cuyahoga county is in a year, and we will have a bustling inner city construction spending economy.  In fact, before this tax increase came up, you could have told me sales tax was at 7%, and I would have believed you. 

History has shown that a tax increase is more likely if it is a county wide vote.  If I recall, the Gateway sin tax failed in the city but passed with 53%.

 

Isn't this a sales tax though and not a sin tax? I'm not saying you are wrong but I could see a sin tax passing before sales tax.

^While it has been a LONG TIME county voters increased the sales tax a whopping one percent to establish and fund RTA.

I think it's a safe bet the following groups would vote in favor:

 

1. Unions, particularly construction/trades

2. Healthcare workers*

3. Hospitality workers*

4. Forest City employees*

 

*It would behoove the leaders of each group to organize their members into a potent voting block.

^and the NAACP is on board

Commissioners up sales tax for Med Mart

Posted by kturner

July 26, 2007 14:07PM

 

 

Cuyahoga County commissioners Peter Lawson Jones, left, Jimmy Dimora and Timothy F. Hagan listen to residents earlier this month at a meeting to discuss a proposal to raise the Cuyahoga County sales tax a quarter of a cent

Cuyahoga County commissioners voted 2-1 today to raise the sales tax a quarter of a penny to to help bring a Medical Mart to Cleveland.

 

Commissioners Jimmy Dimora and Timothy F. Hagan voted for the tax.

Commmissioner Peter Lawson Jones, who has said he wants the issue to be put on the ballot, cast the lone dissenting vote...

 

 

more at:  http://www.cleveland.com

 

 

^I really don't know if they can get the signatures, and i hope they can't.  From the last I saw, most of the major institutions and groups support this tax increase.  I don't see who is going to the streets to get the signatures or who would fund the brigade. 

^who knows but 30 days seems like a short period of time unless "somebody" is already organized.  Also, I would think that this time of year is the worst to organize and gather signatures with people scattered on vacations and the like or other things on their minds like gearing up for school.  Again who knows.

The only thing is these people can sit in shopping malls all over Cuyahoga County, not just Cleveland, getting all the kids signatures that are off from school, 18 yrs old to 22 yrs old.  That's what scares me.  We are not just getting registered Cleveland voters, but all of Cuyahoga County.

I would also mention that the way these signatures are gathered are not always clear. I think many of us have been approached for multiple petitions on Public Square, and the language is often pretty "squishy" ... half the time I would have to say, "So this is in opposition to Issue X?" before I would get a straight answer. And with a "Should commissioners be able to levy a tax without taking it to the people?" angle, I could see signatures accrue fairly quickly.

 

My question is whether or not there are any angles for a counter issue on the ballot and whether this would help or detract from the Medical Mart effort. Just as voters were given a choice between two different versions of the smoking ban that created a larger context for what the voters could decide, maybe there would be a way to frame the sales tax provision in a different light that could trump an opposition issue (much like Issue 4 would have trumped Issue 5), in the event that enough opposition signatures were secured. They wouldn't have to turn over the petitions for an alternate ballot issue until they had a sense of whether an opposition one was likely, and it seems like they have more than enough capacity to collect 45,000 pro-Medical Mart signatures.

[

 

IF you want to raise the tax,then use it for a Subway system.

 

The RTA already gets 4 times the tax income (1%)than this new tax for the CC/MM (.25%)

 

  .25% ... would buy alot of buses.