July 27, 200717 yr Something else to think about: the typical rule of thumb with gathering petition signatures is to collect at least double what you actually need. So what does everyone think are the odds of gathering 90,000 signatures in the next 30 days? Personally, I don't see it happening. I know about 200 to 300 people who will sign the petition good. just about 44,750 more fools to go!
July 29, 200717 yr I agree with 95% of TMH’s post. Only thing is, Browns Stadium tends to weaken it somewhat. The best, and imho ONLY advantage to having built Browns Stadium for (what $350M in taxpayer $) is that we got to receive another NFL team to call the Browns. Now I’m not downplaying this which, in itself, is considerable; it gives great civic pride and visibility to the City. However, as for the actual stadium itself, it’s giving us little: No spin-off development to speak of (unless you consider the W. 3rd RTA station which was taxpayer $ anyway). Not to mention the fact the stadium actually is blocking our lakefront from more residence/retail friendly high-density development… Add to that the refusal to dome it, or even have a retractable dome, means the joint is of even lesser public utility. It only has 10 firm dates during the year, 2 of which are low-attendance Browns exhibition games. And Browns games are primarily Sunday’s during the fall/winter - during school months-this results in lower impact for restaurant/bar retail; particularly since football fans tend to BYOB (and F = food), tailgate, watch the game and go home (add to this, a significant chunk of folks come straight from church to the game, so no restaurant stops in btw) … Compare the Cavs-Indians at Gateway with 124 dates (some overlapping) for regular season games, alone. It’s true the Browns attract more for each individual game, but overall, the Cavs and Indians dwarf the Browns in terms of fans drawn to town, and most of these games are on weekday or weekend evenings when the potential impact on restaurant/bar retail is greater, both before and after their games. Then too are the irritating side factors surrounding the Browns: the team and organization, at least till a few years ago, stinks; they’re poised to fire their 3rd coach in less than 9 years. Then you had the water pipe burst a few weeks ago which was a public relations disaster; for the city and the stadium… In short, when selling the MM tax, best be silent about Browns Stadium. And I am a RABID Browns fan; curse Modell to this day and celebrated when the new “Browns” returned. BOTTOM LINE? Yes, I am 4-Square behind the paltry sales tax to support this very important (dare I say, critical) project for Cleveland. It is important, though, when attacking the wrong-way rebels (without a cause), we present the facts in as favorable light as possible. Yes, there is some valid skepticism in any new tax - we are taxed a lot here and the City, esp it’s citizens are struggling, generally. Yes, there is a lot of skepticism of government now, from Washington (esp Washington) to Cleveland. We simply don’t trust folks who are spending our $$… The Browns semi-debacle gives some rise to this, but Gateway and the Medical Mart clearly trump such arguments.
July 29, 200717 yr I agree with 95% of TMH’s post. Only thing is, Browns Stadium tends to weaken it somewhat. The best, and imho ONLY advantage to having built Browns Stadium for (what $350M in taxpayer $) is that we got to receive another NFL team to call the Browns. Now I’m not downplaying this which, in itself, is considerable; it gives great civic pride and visibility to the City. However, as for the actual stadium itself, it’s giving us little: No spin-off development to speak of (unless you consider the W. 3rd RTA station which was taxpayer $ anyway). Not to mention the fact the stadium actually is blocking our lakefront from more residence/retail friendly high-density development… Add to that the refusal to dome it, or even have a retractable dome, means the joint is of even lesser public utility. It only has 10 firm dates during the year, 2 of which are low-attendance Browns exhibition games. And Browns games are primarily Sunday’s during the fall/winter - during school months-this results in lower impact for restaurant/bar retail; particularly since football fans tend to BYOB (and F = food), tailgate, watch the game and go home (add to this, a significant chunk of folks come straight from church to the game, so no restaurant stops in btw) … Compare the Cavs-Indians at Gateway with 124 dates (some overlapping) for regular season games, alone. It’s true the Browns attract more for each individual game, but overall, the Cavs and Indians dwarf the Browns in terms of fans drawn to town, and most of these games are on weekday or weekend evenings when the potential impact on restaurant/bar retail is greater, both before and after their games. Then too are the irritating side factors surrounding the Browns: the team and organization, at least till a few years ago, stinks; they’re poised to fire their 3rd coach in less than 9 years. Then you had the water pipe burst a few weeks ago which was a public relations disaster; for the city and the stadium… In short, when selling the MM tax, best be silent about Browns Stadium. And I am a RABID Browns fan; curse Modell to this day and celebrated when the new “Browns” returned. BOTTOM LINE? Yes, I am 4-Square behind the paltry sales tax to support this very important (dare I say, critical) project for Cleveland. It is important, though, when attacking the wrong-way rebels (without a cause), we present the facts in as favorable light as possible. Yes, there is some valid skepticism in any new tax - we are taxed a lot here and the City, esp it’s citizens are struggling, generally. Yes, there is a lot of skepticism of government now, from Washington (esp Washington) to Cleveland. We simply don’t trust folks who are spending our $$… The Browns semi-debacle gives some rise to this, but Gateway and the Medical Mart clearly trump such arguments. Clvlndr, you certainly have some valid points, but can you condense your posts? Good lord, my attention span is not that long.
July 29, 200717 yr Clvlndr, excellent post. I agree 100%. The placement of the Stadium is an absolute atrocity. Why place ANY sports venue--especially one that is used so infrequently--on such prime property? I also endorse the tax. I believe the benefits of the MM and CC far outweigh the drawbacks of the increased tax rate.
July 29, 200717 yr I didn't think Clvlndr's post was that long. I've written much longer and so has he! In my own selfishness, I would like to see the West Shore Corridor commuter rail and Cuyahoga Valley Scenic Railroad/Towpath Trail tied into the convention center project. The West Shore route can be used to tap into more hotel space in Westlake (several hotels right next to the tracks and the Westlake Park-n-Ride) and spur more hotels near other stations for big conventions. The CVSR would be a terrific thing for convention-goers to ride to get to historic and recreational sites in the Cuyahoga Valley National Park - in any weather. "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
July 30, 200717 yr Here's how you can tie the West Shore commuter rail (and, with some more trackwork, the other three top-ranking proposed commuter rail lines to Painesville, Aurora and Akron-Canton) in with the new convention center and medical mart..... http://www.urbanohio.com/forum2/index.php?topic=6001.msg204271#msg204271 I would encourage you to discuss this transportation feature as part of the convention center option on the West Shore commuter rail thread. This feature might be had for $8 million -- is it worth it to include this feature with the convention center's price tag? Consider the arguments I posted at the linked page above. "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
July 30, 200717 yr ^^^ " In my own selfishness, I would like to see the West Shore Corridor commuter rail and Cuyahoga Valley Scenic Railroad/Towpath Trail tied into the convention center project." I agree with KJP. My primary issue with the quick passage of this tax is that the tax only draws from Cuyahoga County. If the MED Mart is going to bring benefit to the region, though disproportionately to Cuyahoga Cnty, why can't the tax increase be split between Cuyahoga and the 5 surrounding counties (1/8 Cuyahoga, 1/8 split between 5)? It's the same with our transportation issues, if we truly see ourselves as a region and want to reap the benefits of increased conventions/tourism, then why doesn't our mass transportation tax reflect that ideal?
July 30, 200717 yr OK, so a few unanswered questions: So will the renderings and proposals of the new convention center be changed or updated, or kept the same as the ones FC originally put out, including the hotel and the Tower City addition w/Niketown? When could construction begin? When will it end?
July 30, 200717 yr Author Looks like there is a good article in crains with Tim Hagan saying "whoever" the devoper is for the CC, they will have to make significant consessions. :) Requesting a posting of the article please :)
July 30, 200717 yr ^Here you go Punch and company Hagan: Med mart developer must make concessions GCP chairman Nance charged with ensuring public receives fair deal from private sector By JAY MILLER July 30, 2007 If the plan to raise the Cuyahoga County sales tax 0.25% to pay for a new convention center survives a possible voter referendum, negotiators for the Cuyahoga County commissioners have been told to work hard to extract significant concessions from whichever private developer the county chooses as a partner. County commissioner Tim Hagan, in an interview shortly before he and commissioner Jimmy Dimora voted to hike the sales tax to 7.75% from 7.5% to pay for a new convention center, said he has given Fred Nance, chairman of the Greater Cleveland Partnership, strict instructions for his role as the county’s negotiator. More at crainscleveland.com http://www.crainscleveland.com
July 30, 200717 yr I won't hold my breath, but that sounds a little more promising. clevelandskyscrapers.com Cleveland Skyscrapers on Instagram
July 30, 200717 yr Author In this case, the ability to put as much of the cost on the landlord might be aided by whether the landlord wants to avoid tarnishing its public image by being seen as obstructing a major public project. A Forest City spokesman said the company was not prepared to talk about the project. :lol:
July 30, 200717 yr ^^I thought that was funny too! Very interesting article, especially the fact that Forest City wanted $40 million for air rights above the parking lot behind Tower City. Don't know who would pay for that at that price...
July 30, 200717 yr Author I wonder how much new construction for the MM would cost, if the current convention center is selected as the site.
August 1, 200717 yr snooz you looz --- the cleve better make up its mind and get moving on this....nyc is nipping at the heels of what looks like a kind of mm idea near the javits (on the copacabana nightclub site). so now they are a step up as a site has been chosen. from the nytimes: Manhattan: Agreement on West Side Medical Tower By CHARLES V. BAGLI Published: August 1, 2007 Two New York developers have signed an agreement to build a 1.2 million-square-foot office tower on the Far West Side that would serve as a hub for manufacturers of devices, diagnostics, computer systems and other equipment for the medical industry. The developers — Gary Barnett, the chief executive of the Extell Development Corporation, and Israel Green — said they planned to begin construction in early 2009. The tower would rise at 11th Avenue and 34th Street, on a site that is now home to the Copacabana nightclub. More at http://www.nytimes.com/2007/08/01/nyregion/01mbrfs-tower.html?_r=3&%20ref=slogin&oref=slogin&oref=slogin
August 1, 200717 yr I swear, if I see somebody downtown gathering signatures, I'm gonna jump them and steal their sheets. Or better, I will find as many as I can and sign different names to them. Just Kidding Mr Cheney. It's all jokes!!! Nothing to see here.
August 1, 200717 yr Any more news on signature gathering. How many days are left, 23? I saw somebody with a clipboard outside of the CVB location in the Higbee's building. I didn't stop to see if it was for the sales tax recall though. So, sorry for the incomplete/totally speculative report.
August 1, 200717 yr Awesome! I hope someone follows up on this and tells us why this is different than the Cleveland idea.
August 1, 200717 yr the javitz center is a horrible...think worse than the downtown Cleveland Convention center to put on an event. We're one of NYC largest employeers and wont put on an event there.
August 1, 200717 yr snooz you looz --- the cleve better make up its mind and get moving on this....nyc is nipping at the heels of what looks like a kind of mm idea near the javits (on the copacabana nightclub site). so now they are a step up as a site has been chosen. from the nytimes: Manhattan: Agreement on West Side Medical Tower By CHARLES V. BAGLI Published: August 1, 2007 Two New York developers have signed an agreement to build a 1.2 million-square-foot office tower on the Far West Side that would serve as a hub for manufacturers of devices, diagnostics, computer systems and other equipment for the medical industry. The developers — Gary Barnett, the chief executive of the Extell Development Corporation, and Israel Green — said they planned to begin construction in early 2009. The tower would rise at 11th Avenue and 34th Street, on a site that is now home to the Copacabana nightclub. More at http://www.nytimes.com/2007/08/01/nyregion/01mbrfs-tower.html?_r=3&%20ref=slogin&oref=slogin&oref=slogin If the last sentance of that bit is true, I'm not exactly shaking in my boots.
August 2, 200717 yr From the Cleveland Medical Mart blog: http://clevelandmedicalmart.wordpress.com/2007/07/19/the-alternatives-dont-add-up/ The “alternatives” don’t add up Some people have suggested that there are viable alternative tax scenerios for funding the Medical Mart and Convention Center project. In fact, we’ll probably hear some of these ideas later this morning at the public hearing. I’ve looked at the alternatives and they just don’t add up. 1. Sales Tax - Sales taxes can be raised by the county commissioners at ¼ percent increments without a vote of the people, subject to public referendum. The sales tax is reserved for specific purposes including the state and county general funds. Cuyahoga County’s rate would become 7 ¾ percent if the smallest increment allowable was enacted. While this would be the largest in the state, most of the difference relates to our urban counties public transportation system (1%), which is unnecessary in most adjoining counties. A ¼ sales tax would raise approximately $42 million annually. 2. Food and Beverage Tax - A proposed food and beverage tax on either the central business district (downtown) or the entire county would require a vote of the electors. As an example, a 2% rate imposed on the entire county’s food and beverage industry would raise approximately $18 million annually. All carry out food would continue to be exempted from the new tax by the Ohio Constitution. A downtown only tax would generate only about $1.5 million. Cuyahoga County is the only current county permitted to use such a tax (population must exceed 1.2 million) and the food and beverage industry has historically threatened to oppose such taxes for fear of creating a precedent in other counties in Ohio. 3. Transfer Tax/Conveyance Fee - A tax enacted at the point of sale for real estate in Cuyahoga county would require a change in state law since Cuyahoga County is already at the maximum level permitted. A 100% increase in the conveyance fee in Cuyahoga county would raise approximately $13 million per year although the revenue stream has considerable peaks and valleys due to the current state of the real estate market at any given time. If the State Legislature did choose to grant a county additional permissive use of the Conveyance fee, it would most likely require a vote of the electors based on previous history. However, this particular tax will attract great statewide opposition from the realtors in Ohio for a number of reasons, including a precedent setting argument. 4. New County Bed Tax - Cuyahoga County’s current bed tax of 7.5% (for the City of Cleveland), combined with the sales tax rate of 7.5% is already one of the highest in the country. Some suburbs in Cuyahoga County have a lower rate based on a lower municipal rate than the City of Cleveland’s 3%. An additional county wide bed tax of 2% would raise approximately $5 million annually and would not require additional state legislation or a vote of the people. 5. Redirected Existing Bed Taxes - 1. A current city bed tax of 3% could be redirected from its current use to support the existing convention center and generates approximately $4 million annually. However, it is expected that the city may choose to use these revenues for the renovation of the existing center for some alternative use should a new center be located closer to Tower City or some alternative location. 2. Rock and Roll Bed Tax - A 1.5% county bed tax currently is used to retire debt on the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame. When these debts are retired in approximately 2013, the $4.0 million could be redirected to an alternative use, including a new Convention Center. This would not require a vote of the electors. 3. An existing county bed tax of 3% that funds the operations of the Convention and Visitors Bureau raises approximately $8 million annually. Redirecting this tax would result in a CVB with no marketing capacity to support the hospitality industry. [NOTE : Utilizing all new and potentially redirected bed taxes would raise approximately $20 million when all revenues from the Rock and Roll bonds were actualized. Until that time, aggregating all bed taxes would raise approximately $16 million annually. Without the redirect of the city’s bed tax that would likely be needed to capture the potential of the existing convention center, the total would be reduced to $12 million annually. An additional county bed tax of 2% would also result in one of the highest bed taxes in the US.] 6. Additional “Sin Taxes” - Any increase in additional sin taxes at any level would require state legislative action and a likely public vote similar to the recent vote to increase the tobacco tax to fund the arts levy in Cuyahoga County. Most of these taxes are currently scheduled to retire the Browns stadium projects (after paying off Gateway debts for 15 years) and are not available until well into the next decade. 7. Property Tax - A 1 mil increase in the county property tax would raise approximately $28 million annually and would require a vote of the electors. This tax, however, is the sole revenue source for schools throughout the county as well as for libraries, metroparks, the Port Authority and human services. The Plain Dealer also analyzed the alternatives here. Joe Roman President and CEO Greater Cleveland Partnership
August 2, 200717 yr I wonder how much new construction for the MM would cost, if the current convention center is selected as the site. 120 million dollars. plus there is also a building goldberg has to offer at above 200,000 square foot.what i would say is enough for a medical showcase. I would also say the top computer shows are not as big as they use to be.Techonology is shrinking so space will shrink..bye bye las vegas.
August 2, 200717 yr I swear, if I see somebody downtown gathering signatures, I'm gonna jump them and steal their sheets. Or better, I will find as many as I can and sign different names to them. Just Kidding Mr Cheney. It's all jokes!!! Nothing to see here. YOur so cubanist....artist at its ending
August 2, 200717 yr No, I'm Italian. And you should not be allowed to post after midnight. Musky, don't you mean "not allow to post without SANE adult supervision"? Well, on this board I knew I'd be pushing for something that is in short supply.
August 2, 200717 yr snooz you looz --- the cleve better make up its mind and get moving on this....nyc is nipping at the heels of what looks like a kind of mm idea near the javits (on the copacabana nightclub site). so now they are a step up as a site has been chosen. from the nytimes: Manhattan: Agreement on West Side Medical Tower By CHARLES V. BAGLI Published: August 1, 2007 Two New York developers have signed an agreement to build a 1.2 million-square-foot office tower on the Far West Side that would serve as a hub for manufacturers of devices, diagnostics, computer systems and other equipment for the medical industry. The developers Gary Barnett, the chief executive of the Extell Development Corporation, and Israel Green said they planned to begin construction in early 2009. The tower would rise at 11th Avenue and 34th Street, on a site that is now home to the Copacabana nightclub. Mr. Green has spent five years developing the concept and pursuing a Manhattan location. He said it was an opportunity for New York City to become the principal center for the $260 billion global market for medical devices and diagnostics. The project may have to wait until the city completes part of an extension of the No. 7 subway line, which passes beneath the site. http://www.nytimes.com/2007/08/01/nyregion/01mbrfs-tower.html?_r=3&%20ref=slogin&oref=slogin&oref=slogin If the last sentance of that bit is true, I'm not exactly shaking in my boots. maybe not now, but i wouldnt exactly put my fingers in my ears and go la la la about it. that detail is definately moving forward too: Lessons From The Number 7 Train Extension by Bruce Schaller January, 2007 With the sale of $2 billion in bonds in December, the financing for construction of the West Side extension to the No. 7 subway line is in place, and construction will begin later this year. The project will extend the No. 7 line from Times Square to a new subway station near the Javits Center at Eleventh Avenue and West 34th Street. An intermediate station, at Tenth Avenue and West 41st Street, has been discussed but is not currently funded. The Number 7 extension was once merely one item on a laundry list of possible transit improvements. Now it has leapt past such long-discussed mega projects as the Second Avenue Subway in the journey from planners’ dream to reality. http://www.gothamgazette.com/article/transportation/20070117/16/2078
August 2, 200717 yr Yeah, Cleveland definitely needs to get a move on with this project, and any other project in the pipelines quite frankly, if it truly wants to be a bigger player in the national arena. I get so frustrated with Cleveland's lack of aggressiveness at times, and the powers that be need to realize that it's time for the city to move on to bigger and better already.
August 2, 200717 yr off topic...... jpop, I since your frustration, however, saying "it" and doing "it" are two different things. We here are all pro urban planning, but personally I've never sat down at "the table" to participate such plans. As we stated back in 2004, there are many plans on the books that will greatly shape Cleveland in the future. Today we are seeing many of those plans in construction mode all over the city. The next few years with current project completed and projects just starting in the later stages of construction or occupancy, the city will be in much better shape. There are many things that go on behind the scenes were are not privy to and we should thing "nothing is happening" because its not reported in the media. back on topic.... Get the damn deal signed already. I don't see it moving to NYC, but Cleveland (via the PD and other media outlets) needs to educate the mass on why this is a win-win for the city. However, as I have stated hundreds of times. We have no real PR Strategy in place!
August 2, 200717 yr Gee MTS, I dont recall ever hearing you say that......... :roll: 300 lashes with a wet noodle that's been licked by KOOW!
August 2, 200717 yr off topic...... jpop, I since your frustration, however, saying "it" and doing "it" are two different things. We here are all pro urban planning, but personally I've never sat down at "the table" to participate such plans. As we stated back in 2004, there are many plans on the books that will greatly shape Cleveland in the future. Today we are seeing many of those plans in construction mode all over the city. The next few years with current project completed and projects just starting in the later stages of construction or occupancy, the city will be in much better shape. There are many things that go on behind the scenes were are not privy to and we should thing "nothing is happening" because its not reported in the media. True, and I realize that. My impatience is getting the better of me. :) That, and I want to see the city that I love grow and prosper beyond what it is today. To the future!
August 2, 200717 yr True, and I realize that. My impatience is getting the better of me. :) That, and I want to see the city that I love grow and prosper beyond what it is today. To the future! Dont go and get all soft on me. You're live in the boogie down Bronx. :-P :wink: I think I can safely say...that most of here have at one time or another felt the same way and want the same thing.
August 3, 200717 yr New York plans a medical equipment showroom, too Posted by Plain Dealer staff August 03, 2007 11:55AM Cleveland's efforts to land a downtown Medical Mart are being complicated by the announcement that New York developers plan to build a Manhattan tower to show equipment for the medical industry. (See previous Plain Dealer coverage online.) Construction could begin in early 2009, the New York Times reported. The announcement comes a week after Cuyahoga County commissioners voted 2-1 to raise the county sales tax one-quarter of a cent as part of plans to attract a Medical Mart, a collection of permanent showrooms for health-care products and technology... http://blog.cleveland.com/metro/2007/08/new_york_plans_a_medical_equip.html
August 3, 200717 yr I think we have the hands up because: a) we already have a building up that just need to be retrofitted/renovated b) the javitz center is the pits and there are those in the are that do not want it to expand.
August 3, 200717 yr Yeah but at the end of the day, the zebra's stripes are still the same...We need to light a huge fire under the derrieres of our beloved button pushers-not just with this project,but with all of the projects which seem to be referred to as the proverbial "silver bullet". Enough of this "do it tomorrow" crap! We need some visionaries in this city! For the most part, all we have are people concerned about making a name for themselves and using the city to achieve it. We need leaders who want to make an name for Cleveland, and give themselves in entirety to this endeavour! We need visionaries-People addressing/preventing tomorrow's problems TODAY-not the old men's club "fixing" yesterday's mistakes TOMORROW!
August 3, 200717 yr Yeah but at the end of the day, the zebra's stripes are still the same...We need to light a huge fire under the derrieres of our beloved button pushers-not just with this project,but with all of the projects which seem to be referred to as the proverbial "silver bullet". Enough of this "do it tomorrow" crap! We need some visionaries in this city! For the most part, all we have are people concerned about making a name for themselves and using the city to achieve it. We need leaders who want to make an name for Cleveland, and give themselves in entirety to this endeavour! We need visionaries-People addressing/preventing tomorrow's problems TODAY-not the old men's club "fixing" yesterday's mistakes TOMORROW! Woo!! Now that's what I'm talking about!
August 3, 200717 yr The thing that's obnoxious is, the fact that because this news comes out of New York, everyone in Cleveland is throwing up the white flag. You won't win any battles if you don't pick up your sword and fight.
August 4, 200717 yr Well, gauntlet's been thrown to the ground. We've already let New York usurp our Rock Hall induction ceremonies. Now, are we going to let them pull the rug from under our number 1 industry; one that, frankly, we better the Big Apple in terms of prestige? I see and hear Cleveland Clinic commercials nationwide; there are Cleveland Clinic installations in many parts of the country. I sure don't see any, say, Columbia-Presbyterian Hospital commercials. With this challenge, we really have strong evidence to shout down the referendum morons who'd just as soon keep Cleveland 2nd rate just in exchange for their own personal aggrandizement
August 4, 200717 yr New York plans a medical equipment showroom, too Posted by Plain Dealer staff August 03, 2007 11:55AM Categories: Breaking News, Impact Cleveland's efforts to land a downtown Medical Mart are being complicated by the announcement that New York developers plan to build a Manhattan tower to show equipment for the medical industry. (See previous Plain Dealer coverage online.) Construction could begin in early 2009, the New York Times reported... http://blog.cleveland.com/metro/2007/08/new_york_plans_a_medical_equip.html hey maybe the peedee is reading uo -- i scooped them by two days on that!
August 4, 200717 yr I'm not a huge proponent of the project, but I do support it and hate to turn down things that contribute to the positive growth of the city. But I think that the major supporters should be shoving the project down our throats if they want to see it happen. Why shouldn't it be in the news every single day to get NEO residents onboard? There can be a much better, stronger, more-unified strategy than this half-in/half-out approach.
August 4, 200717 yr New york New York..How many times have I seen the cleveland clinic on the today show. As many time as the all the new york hospitals. Please do remember as technology gets better so do the instruments get smaller,so all this space will be wasted. White flag,hell with the white flag...how about the cleveland indians killing the yankeees 22-0 thats life
August 4, 200717 yr yeah, just look at how electronics stores have shrunk over the last couple of decades.
Create an account or sign in to comment