^I was approached by a signature collector in Tremont during the Verb Ballet thing on Friday.  He said something about how the tax increase might have been illegal because if all of the money from the increase goes only to the convention center, the increase is required to be put on the ballot.  Does anyone know if that's true?

 

well if its illegal, he should probably have stopped wasting his time collecting signatures, and spent more time taking it up with the courts.

 

wouldn't be the first time a petitioner lied to get a signature.

I agree with KJP.

 

TC is the obvious place to build the convention center. Most likely, it would strengthen the retail aspect of tower center, and hopefully change the mix of stores. Maybe they’ll build another hotel, but beyond that, I think we are not going to see much spin off. However, it should help the hotels, and maybe add another one, which are very important to the future of the city. As much as we might dislike the management of Tower City, malls located in downtowns are a dying breed, and it would be a severe blow to the city to lose it or see it decline further.

 

Sam Miller is a tough to deal with, and he alone could scuttle any deal with the county/medical mart. I doubt in today’s climate, he can shake down the city for $40million in” air rights” to build a convention center.

 

Regardless, it’s still troubling to see the existing convention center sitting idle. The proposal put forth to build it underground, and extended it are intriguing,  but I think putting 450 million in a basement is not going to sit well with the voters and the politicos unless they ca ndo it for well under that number.

 

In a twisted form of logic, maybe the area under the mall could serve as underground parking lot, and lower the value of existing surface lots, making the economics of them more suitable to build on.

 

What about moving the crawford auto museum to the mall site?

 

 

 

"Regardless, it’s still troubling to see the existing convention center sitting idle."

 

Idle, no. Underused? Absolutely, and I know it's splitting hairs but in October the Ohio Optometric Association will have 800 attendees, and the American Chemical Society's Rubber Division will have 10,000.* It's not the greatest facility but it does get some use, just not as much as it could.

 

*Or did you mean, it would be troubling to see the existing center idle AFTER a Tower City center is built?

 

Your suggestion of relocating the Crawford Museum would be fantastic for that spot - I'd still prefer an expanded/improved center in the current site but if it has to be re-used, the museum would be a good fit, imho.

I think it would also be cool to see the old center converted into a downtown rec center with a track, swimming pools, basketball courts etc.  High school events could also be held there.  That may not sit well on the rest of you, but it is something that I believe is missing from dt Cleveland.  And don't say we already have the CAC.  It really is very out-dated. 

the CAC is rumored to be purchased.  So there is the opportunity for all you wish

I don't think anyone would be opposed to a dt rec center, but is the current cc set up for it?  I don't know how a pool or basketball court, or even a racketball court would fit in between all those columns.

The Mall site seems eminently more expandable than TC.  It would re-use and re-energize a rather dead section of downtown.  TC will be always buzzing with activity regardless of if a CC and MM are placed around it.  With the extension over the tracks to the Waterfront line it could be made into an easy way of getting to the MM without getting windburned in the winter.

 

To me TC is just a crazy convolution of buildings reminiscent of what they have in Dayton called the arcade.  They're having serious issues with this massive structure because all the buildings have aged and the expense to refurbish is far too great to do so.  Its also very difficult to knock down any of the buildings without affecting the other structures.  Adding more buildings to TC would seem to complicate matters more. 

Audio that why I like these two plans

http://www.conventioncleveland.com/images/thumbnails3.html

http://www.conventioncleveland.com/images/thumbnails1.html

http://www.conventioncleveland.com/images/thumbnails7.html

 

There is plan for connecting the waterfront line and adding a hotel with two additional projects.

 

I do disagree with the expense of Tower city, most of its new (or renovated in the last 15 years) with the exception of the tower itself which is currently undergoing a complete reno.

^ absofreakinlootly the bottom rendering is the winner of all cc plans.

 

i'm gonna make a banner: "bury the behemoth"

I don't think anyone would be opposed to a dt rec center, but is the current cc set up for it?  I don't know how a pool or basketball court, or even a racketball court would fit in between all those columns.

Where there's a will there's a way.  I get your point X.  The thing is, the layout of current convention center is not conducive to any type of modern day developement.  Major renovations including structural and foundation would need top be made to house anything. 

 

I feal that people have been brought up in a very suburban culture these days...especially in Cleveland and all other Ohio cities.  They are very accustomed to new rec centers, rec leagues, mommy and me pool dates (don't ask how I know that one).  They tend to serve as gathering locations for families, kids, yp's and empty nesters.  Rec centers have become part of our culture.  Don't feal bad if it's not part of yours, I am just speaking generally.  We need to continue to create a downtown that offers all the ammenities that people had in their suburb plus the urban experience.  And to go back on topic so Mayday doesn't blast me, that's why I think the current convention center would be a good fit for a Cleveland owned and operated rec center. 

I don't think anyone would be opposed to a dt rec center, but is the current cc set up for it?  I don't know how a pool or basketball court, or even a racketball court would fit in between all those columns.

 

There already is a Recreation Center open to the public.

http://www.csuohio.edu/recreation_center/community.html

 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

 

I think its interesting that travelcleveland.com has this on there website:

 

Proposed New Cleveland Convention Center, located on the existing mall site, the new Cleveland Convention Center will include an additional 300,000 square feet of exhibit space, 100,000 square feet of meeting rooms, and 35,000 square feet of ballrooms.

 

 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

 

 

Just to be fair with the images, here are the TC location plans (who are we kidding, everyone here is sophisticated enough to know these plans are just studies and the new center, wherever it is located, will loom nothing like what is proposed):

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

(who are we kidding, everyone here is sophisticated enough to know these plans are just studies and the new center, wherever it is located, will loom nothing like what is proposed):

 

That "loom" typo kind of got me giggling since when I saw renderings of how that thing looked up against the river, that's the verb I'd use for it!  It might loom exactly like it was proposed  :-D

That architecture firm will have absolutely nothing to do with the design of the CC.  Forest City subs them out to do studies for projects like these then gets design firms in to do the actual design.  This study was done just to see if it would fit basically.

I like it how Sam Miller get a a low rate city loan to rebuild Union Terminal and totally turn into a suburban mall,fills it with above average street base retail.

 

20 years later get away with not paying back city  loans. All the great stores close and are replaced by Dollar stores and Ahahita Palace.

 

Now he gets a convention center built in his back of tower city to save it. 

 

So now the county has to save him because he sat on land and did not built housing to support his retail.

 

Thats how politics is done in cleveland. :clap: :clap: :clap: :drunk:

 

 

I like how he wants us to pay him $40 million to build a convention center to prop up his failing mall.  I'd walk away from that negotiation.

pd editorial:

 

The real work for a convention center/medical mart in Cuyahoga County now begins

Tuesday, August 28, 2007

 

With the way clear for a sales tax in crease in Cuyahoga County to take ef fect Oct. 1, as approved by the commissioners, the real work on a convention center now begins.

 

Civic and political supporters of the convention center, to be allied with a Medical Mart, have almost every detail yet to decide. The project was all but on hold the past month, pending the outcome of an effort to place on the ballot a referendum on the tax increase. The clock ran out on the referendum effort over the weekend before the required petition signatures could be collected...

 

 

more at:  http://www.cleveland.com

Great pics MTS, I truly believe that if it could just bridge the shoreway, the CC would be a success for that point alone.

 

http://www.conventioncleveland.com/images/thumbnails7.html

 

I'm not sure if I'm in support of the lakefront site for the CC. Chris Carmody has proposed making the old CC site into a year-round production facility for film and TV. If Cleveland could get that there, that would be amazing!

I'm not sure if I'm in support of the lakefront site for the CC. Chris Carmody has proposed making the old CC site into a year-round production facility for film and TV. If Cleveland could get that there, that would be amazing!

 

Why?  Chris Carmody resigned. 

 

Hey...why not move the the Film/TV production facility into the May Co Bldg.?  there's an idea!

 

This would allow them to have a street presence and make an interactive connection with the gateway neighborhood and show a new/expanding business segment in the city.

 

 

It's not as big as the convention center, though, is it?

 

Chris has resigned Cleveland Film Commission or whatever it's called. But he's still working on efforts to further the arts and, specifically, film in Cleveland and other cities.

It's not as big as the convention center, though, is it?

 

Chris has resigned Cleveland Film Commission or whatever it's called. But he's still working on efforts to further the arts and, specifically, film in Cleveland and other cities.

 

May Co. is huge!  I would think it would be big enough for film and production studios.  The floor plans are huge.  Which is why they had/have such a problem trying to convert it into condos.

MTS, watch the video that you told me had already been posted in the Spiderman thread, the biggest thing they loved was being able to pull all their semi trucks and trailers into the convention center and have everything there.  They wouldn't be able to do something like that at the MayCo building. 

true, but they could alter that alley in between the May Co and its garage correct.  I understand what you're saying, I'm just suggesting alternatives.

I don't wanna start a war of words here but just playing devils advocate, people complain about the tenants in Tower City (while not the classiest, does not seem to have a ton of vacancy), but if the actual Medical Mart was connected to Tower City, and there was downtime for the convention goers.. wouldn't it make sense that Tower City would see a lot more traffic then if it was located several blocks away?  In turn, I would think that nicer stores would open up again in Tower City, that's just my 1st grade opinion on this though.

^I definetly agree.  You can't say that MORE people would utilize stores and amenities at Tower City if the convention center were in a different location.  It just depends on what your motivations are: 

A.) helping exisiting retail and restaurants, and utilizing current mass transit options at TC.

B.) trying to preserve an existing historic structure and getting supposedly more lake access at the current site.

 

I side with the TC site because I'd like to see a thriving Public Square more so than getting Lake access.  And I just can't see the convention center jumping the tracks and Shoreway working well for some reason.  But I do like the idea of the current site's possibility of integrating passenger service.  That needs to be a reality for me to change sides.

^I believe someone mentioned that (aside from grandfathered in facilities like Kansas City) federal regulations forbid construction of public facilities over working freight rail lines. My first preference would be the current site but that's only because of the expansion possibility over the tracks. Without that expansion, I'm less inclined to support the current site. I do worry about how a center would be wedged into Tower City - it's not just the facility but the 20+ loading docks, the truck traffic, etc.

I definitely favor the TC site for those reasons as well. I still have to see the designs for the cc for that site because again, the last ones made me say, "Yeesh!" But there are some exciting possibilities. I think as long as it doesn't prove to become a complete barrier to the riverfront, it could be great. That was the problem I had with the last one, I think.

I too have trouble with the TC site just because it is so small.  I am fearful that the previously proposed design looming over the river will become a reality since there is not much else you can do given the space constraints.

 

I have never heard this discussed before but what are the possibilities of just going across the river to all that vacant land on the Scranton Peninsula.  I would envision underground trams connecting the site with low rise (and less dense) supporting facilities on the TC side of the river.  You would also have lots of room to expand

 

Problems I forsee with such an idea...1) FC owns the land and are never fun to play with. 2) Probably very expensive...especially the tram concept.  3)  Also more expensive because the land is probably very contaminated.

^I believe someone mentioned that (aside from grandfathered in facilities like Kansas City) federal regulations forbid construction of public facilities over working freight rail lines. My first preference would be the current site but that's only because of the expansion possibility over the tracks. Without that expansion, I'm less inclined to support the current site. I do worry about how a center would be wedged into Tower City - it's not just the facility but the 20+ loading docks, the truck traffic, etc.

 

I don't know if that's true. But let's assume for a second that those regulations exist. I strongly doubt they apply to public facilities which have a transportation focus, such as an intermodal transportation center (a facility linking two or more transportation modes -- ie: intercity passenger rail/Amtrak, Regional commuter trains, light rail/RTA, intracity bus/RTA/Laketran/Akron Metro/Portage Area Regional Transit Authority, intercity bus/Greyhound/Lakefront Trailways/Megabus, plus cars, taxis, bicycles, pedestrian accessways, etc).

 

That's exactly what was proposed in an earlier incarnation of expanding the existing convention center over the lakefront tracks.

That's exactly what was proposed in an earlier incarnation of expanding the existing convention center over the lakefront tracks.

 

....you can see that in the picture I included, up thread.

Remember, if CC goes behind TC, then the Cuyahoga Valley Rail Line could be extended north to and/or near TC (as shown in its planning/massing study above).

MEDIA ADVISORY

 

NEXT STEPS INVOLVED WITH DEVELOPING MEDICAL MART

TO BE EXPLAINED AT THURSDAY PRESS CONFERENCE

 

The next phase in the effort to bring the Medical Mart to Cleveland will be outlined by Fred Nance, chairman of the Greater Cleveland Partnership and its president and CEO Joe Roman at 11 a.m., Thursday, Aug. 30.

 

The press conference will be held in the Visitors Center at Cleveland Plus, 100 Public Square (the former Higbee’s building). Please use Public Square entrance.

 

Merchandise Mart Properties Inc. of Chicago has proposed developing the Medical Mart in Cleveland. The Medical Mart would offer an expansive, permanent display of the nation’s latest and most innovative medical products and devices.  It would be the only Medical Mart in the country, and would attract thousands of medical professionals to Cleveland annually.

Remember, if CC goes behind TC, then the Cuyahoga Valley Rail Line could be extended north to and/or near TC (as shown in its planning/massing study above).

 

If the CC isn't there, then the rail line can't be extended north to TC?

 

I'm not at all enthused about the idea of using the current CC for motion picture shooting.  We've seen it used as a props storage area for 1 movie, now we're all sure that this will be a viable use for this building?  Especially if we have to give it away for free?  And how are we going to maintain the facility, might I ask?  What happens with the CC when it is no longer structurally sound? 

 

What happens with the Public Auditorium?  I know current CC site plans don't include it, but it's alot more likely that it could be used in the future as part of a CC complex if the CC is kept right next to it.

 

What happens to the Mall as a whole if it is left with a vacant CC, a vacant Public Auditorium, and lest we forget, a vacant County Administrative site?

 

Have the people who are suggesting the TC site read the planning studies on CC location that were done under the last administration?  They made it pretty clear that the current CC site is by far preferable to the TC site, both in terms of access, and in terms of functionality for a Convention Center.

It could still go there - it might just happen sooner.

 

Public Auditorium (and the current center) could still be used for smaller conferences and it would be more valuable in the near future when the IX center goes off-line.

 

The planning studies done by the previous administration are obsolete. The creation of the Convention Authority (or whatever its called) made that so.

What is the Public Auditorium used for?  I don't think I've ever been in there, nor do I ever notice it being used. (Apologies in advance for my ignorance.)

How does the creation of the Convention Authority make the planning studies obsolete?  Site and situation haven't changed.  The access to neighborhood amenities hasn't changed, the traffic impacts of a convention center hasn't changed, the configuration of the convention center on a given piece of land hasn't change, the impact of building such a massive building in our downtown hasn't changed, the opportunities for access to our riverfront or lakefront haven't changed.

You will have to ask them.

That's what was implied at all the meeting I went to when they still met.

I imagine they will reconvene soon... and they will likely pick TC. At least, that's where they were heading.

Is your point that the obsolesence is political in nature?  Cause even I know that.  I'm just surprised that so many seem to be jumping on the TC site bandwagon.

I find that photoshop picture amusing; "Cleveland Civic Center". umm, we alreading have a civic center.

1.  Hollywood of the Midwest should not go the current convention center.  The Malls would remain quiet-even quieter perhaps and development around that area would not follow a few camera men.

 

2.  Downtown Cleveland is not that big so there's no reason Tower City wouldn't thrive as a mall with the convention center expanded in its current location.  It's not that much farther to St. Clair/W.9th from the Malls than TC to the WHD.  Plus, everyone and their mother knows Cleveland for the North Coast and the current site is as close as you can get to our main tourist attraction.

 

Now I know some people would say that downtown isn't that big so moving the current site to TC wouldn't hurt anything...WRONG.  If the mall is quiet nowadays even with the petite convention center, removing a 'constant' source of energy in the area would really put a damper on the area.  At least TC could and should market itself as Ohio's premier mall even without the convention center.  There are enough people in NEO and enough stores not in NEO to make TC a destination. 

 

It seems like every decade there's the new fad in Cleveland and every development project has to revolve around that concentrated area.  There's no vision--no masterplan.  Why not build on what we already have instead of trying to reinvent the wheel every 10 years?  First it was the Group Plan way back when, followed by Erieview, Flats, Gateway, WHD, and now E.4th, TC, and hopefully Euclid.  Gee, maybe if we didn't ignore what's going on 2 blocks away, the entire CBD would transform into a 24/7 neighborhood instead of an in-cohesive jumble--incohesive, not diverse.

 

3.  Now even if the convention center moves to TC, the Malls would make quite a nice backyard for condo towers and hotels.  Since downtown isn't that big, there's no reason people couldn't walk to/from the Malls to TC but who am I kidding... :roll:

 

I have a feeling the current site will be ignored--much to the unfortunate demise of what was once considered one of the country's most significant civic spaces back in the early 1900s... :|  On a smaller scale, we're NYC meets Chicago meets DC.  I hope we don't lose the unique spaces and places that make Cleveland CLEVELAND!!! :clap:

  It's not that much farther to St. Clair/W.9th from the Malls than TC to the WHD.  Plus, everyone and their mother knows Cleveland for the North Coast and the current site is as close as you can get to our main tourist attraction.

 

A voice of reason!  :wink:  Thank you.  I pretty much said the same thing up thread!

  It's not that much farther to St. Clair/W.9th from the Malls than TC to the WHD.  Plus, everyone and their mother knows Cleveland for the North Coast and the current site is as close as you can get to our main tourist attraction.

 

A voice of reason!  :wink:  Thank you.  I pretty much said the same thing up thread!

 

It would only cost the city of cleveland to renovate the convention center in excess of 200 million dollars. Let recall the mayor and get someone with brains in office who could pull it off.

"Let recall the mayor and get someone with brains in office who could pull it off."

 

Are you nominating yourself?

It took me a while to look back through the past year and a half of posting in this thread, but I found it and I feel compelled to repost it:

 

I totally forgot to post this... mainly because I told my source (when he told me on December 18 at Becky's) that I would wait until after the new year before blabbing about it. So I would file this as news... as of December 18 - but you should consider it a rumor. At least until there is something more official announced.

 

 

My very, very reliable source (who was a member of the Convention Facilities blah, blah, blah) told me under gin induced breath, the Medical Mart is a go. This has everything to do with the convention center and its location - Tower City.

 

I was told the Medical Mart people loved whatever proposal was given them and are very excited about building here. Apparently there are/were some small details that needed to be worked out before any announcement is/was to be made, and it looks like those details may not have been worked out yet.

 

So there you have it. Let the bickering begin.

 

 

^I wouldn't consider raising the sales tax a "small detail" (and it seems even at this much later date there is much to be work out)

 

That said, I guess the point of your post is that the Tower City site has already been agreed upon...in fact it was agreed upon months ago as part of the initial deal.  Maybe things have changed...who knows.

1.  Hollywood of the Midwest should not go the current convention center.  The Malls would remain quiet-even quieter perhaps and development around that area would not follow a few camera men.

 

For me, it's not about spurring development for this project. I think that turning the current cc into a production facility would be an incredible re-use of the current building. I think for this to work in any venue in Cleveland, they're probably looking at what they can retrofit for the smallest amount of money possible. I think, given the cc's assets in terms of largeness of size, mostly one level, loading docks, etc, it's probably one of the better proposed sites for this kind of thing. Am I wrong on this? I'm not an expert on this subject; I'm just using my own observations.

well I'll be damned.  I'm not happy about this!  My knickers are in a twist about the CC being connected to Tower City!  :x

My knickers are in a twist

 

:-P

Hahaha.

 

Well, I'm not saying I'm a fan of the cc getting squished into the TC site. I would actually be against that, again, given the most recent designs for the site. But I would really love for Cleveland to get this production facility. I think that would be really cool, and obviously depending on how it would be promoted, it could be a unique addition to Cleveland's economy. If they can't place that anywhere else (and that's a definite thing), then I would be open to the possibility of the TC site, as long as the design process is better and it doesn't end up looking like an impenetrable fortress. The spin-off development at TC would obviously be beneficial as well, even though I'm against Forest City getting any special assistance in boosting their mall.

Assuming a TC cc, I'd like the increased sales tax revenue to also go towards adapting the old cc for a sustainable and beneficial use. We really can't let the old cc become an after thought in this process.