A lakefront site for the CC couldn't be more backward.

 

Then again, this renewed idea should set off the "casino alert" siren.

ok..what life, please explain? 

 

 

Was this intended for me?  If so, What do you mean by "What life"

ok..what life, please explain? 

 

 

Was this intended for me?  If so, What do you mean by "What life"

 

Yes

I always find it annoying when I click on a thread about the CC and read ablout Dollar stores.....

 

Anyhow, I am all for the WHD plan for the MM and CC.  I think it is our best shot at infusing life in to the parking lots at this time.   This is gioven the info we got about Earnst and Young this morning and the struggling housing market.

 

Infusing what life into those parking lots?  PLEASE explain to me how a big hulking building infuses life into parking lots, OTHER THAN, the obvious "they are only parking lots" now.

 

Is that footprint large enough for continuous floor space?

Where in sam hell will the loading docks be located?

How will it impact current business and residents? with trash, noise, cabs, and quality of life issues.

MM and CC in the WHD...worst...idea...ever, well besides voting for GWB in 2004 of course.

mccleveland...the thought at least si that those dollar stores and airbrush tshirt shops will go the way of the dodo once the project is up and running.

 

If anyone really believes that by simply putting a CC "connected" to Tower City, that upscale shops are suddenly going to waltz back in... I don't know what to tell you other than you are just flat out wrong.

 

And I just brought up the dollar store as a name... I could have substituted many of the worthless, worthless stores in TC. Hardly any of which anyone wants to shop at.  And yes TC is doing much better than several malls, but only because it gets a tremendous amount of foot traffic.  So if only the crummy stores can survive in the current condition with loads of foot traffic, how is a little more foot traffic going to "transform" TC.  And by the way, Tower City is "worn out". A tremendous amount of money would need to be put into that place for the types of stores people are talking about to even CONSIDER coming back.  And lastly, Tower City is the ONLY place to shop in downtown Cleveland, is there really an advantage for people to be 1 block from it as opposed to 2.5-3 blocks? where else are those people going to shop?  If they want to buy a shirt they'll find tower city.

 

I'm beside myself right now.  I feel even worse than when i thought they were going to smash this thing on the river.  This is a mistake this city will have to live with for 50 plus years. And the thought of ever developing the warehouse district propperly dies with a bland, ugly, lifeless block sitting in the middle of downtown.  It's just shocking to me the back scratching that goes on in this town...  Even in a situation like this where everything about the current site is so right, and everything about a TC connecting site is so wrong.  For a moment I was dumb enough to think they might do the right thing for once... then they managed to figure a way around it.

AMEN AMEN HALLELUJAH

 

deacon McCleveland!

Does anyone have a link to the old proposal that came out for this warehouse district site. I'd like to review it before i make a decision. I vaguely remember a large building on that site that seemed to tower over everything else in the whd.

Does anyone have a link to the old proposal that came out for this warehouse district site. I'd like to review it before i make a decision. I vaguely remember a large building on that site that seemed to tower over everything else in the whd.

 

look up thread.

No way are they trying to do this. This is just a bad joke, right?

We go from a study several years ago (2004?) that narrowed down the sites to 2, TC and the existing site; the existing site was favored by that study.

We now were expecting a winner to be chosen any day now from those 2 sites and now they're adding new locations to the debate?!? WTF!? IMO, some serious back-door shenanigans are going on and downtown is going to get screwed.

Does anyone have a link to the old proposal that came out for this warehouse district site. I'd like to review it before i make a decision. I vaguely remember a large building on that site that seemed to tower over everything else in the whd.

 

look up thread.

 

OK I just re-read the first 10 pages of this thread and it doesn't go back far enough in time to deal with the old Warehouse District plan - it starts with the options narrowed to two - TC vs Mall.  So to repeat the question, anyone have a WHD rendering?

Here's the killer part:  no matter what the committee recommends, the COMMISSIONERS decide where the convention center/medical mart goes. 

 

Stark has agreements with the parking lot owners for Pesht right now, doesn't he?  What happens if the county decides that they are putting up the convention center there?  Do the agreements with the current parking lot owners still stand, or is the county some way able to get the land regardless of agreements (besides eminent domain, which would never fly)?  I wonder if Stark is on to this already, and possibly Jacobs as mentioned by KJP.  Having the medical mart, if the convention center is put behind Tower City, within the tower proposed by Jacobs is intriguing.  However, the medical mart could go in Jacob's tower and we could still have the convention center in it's current location.  Dammit, I wish they would hurry up and decide between the two initial decisions, because the last two are horrific (I still say that county commissioners should be required to take classes at CSU's Levin).

^sadly Hagan is a graduate of Urban Affairs at CSU and was on the faculty at Goodman: http://bocc.cuyahogacounty.us/hagan.htm

^AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!

^sadly Hagan is a graduate of Urban Affairs at CSU and was on the faculty at Goodman: http://bocc.cuyahogacounty.us/hagan.htm

 

I'm signing off of UrbanOhio on that note!

Stark has agreements with the parking lot owners for Pesht right now, doesn't he?  What happens if the county decides that they are putting up the convention center there?  Do the agreements with the current parking lot owners still stand, or is the county some way able to get the land regardless of agreements (besides eminent domain, which would never fly)?  I wonder if Stark is on to this already, and possibly Jacobs as mentioned by KJP.

 

Stark has a development partnership with Tony Asher (also owner of the Tyler Village) who has most of the parking lots in the "powerblock" bounded by West 6th, West 3rd, St. Clair and Superior. The only portion not owned by Stark or Asher (to my knowledge) is the old parking deck at West 6th and Superior. In addition, Asher owns the parking on the northwest corner of St. Clair and West 3rd.

 

Stark also has an agreement with Carnegie Management and Kassouf's companies, who have agreed to develop their properties in accordance with Stark's masterplan. I don't know how enforceable these agreements are, however. Most of the properties owned by Carnegie and Kassouf are just south of the lakefront tracks, from West 10th east to West 3rd.

The county commissioners are pretty mystifying.  How is sticking a convention center next to the stadium a good idea?  Perhaps he thinks its totally unusable land so might as well stick a big building or 2 on it?  I imagine he gets these thoughts while tailgating.  Personally I don't think it matters where the MM goes as long as its within a half mile or so of the convention center.  Put it on public square great, tower city fine, Warehouse district sure whatever.  There are limits to where a CC can be placed given the various stages of development of all the other projects going on in downtown Cleveland and the contiguous acreage needed with good access.  Why does it seem like the Commissioners are trying so hard to avoid making a really easy decision?  Certainly the port could cut the county a sweetheart deal on the land next to the stadium.  There still would have to be an insane amount of infrastructure changes to get that site ready though. The amount of time and money to acquire what they need in the warehouse district would make this choice far fetched.  Sticking the CC behind the TC will be expensive because of its engineering challenge and future limitations.  I'm sure this would take away a lot of parking for TC and so they would have to create even more new parking for a new CC.  All they have to do is go to Pittsburgh or Columbus and see what a white elephant in a downtown does for a city.  Then they can realize how genius it is that the convention center is underground.

 

I'm guessing because of time constraints(mainly property acquisition and engineering) of the other options, the commissioners will have to choose the Mall plan since its the only plan that could likely be completed in 3 years, if I recall the agreed timeframe correctly..

if it goes next to the port, then the city and the county are saying one thing and doing something different (big surprise here).

 

The city wants to improve lakefront access, and putting the CC there would be ridiculous.  Hagan and Dimora are ridiculous!

In related news...

 

In July of 2003, the city planning commission issued their report on 7 potential sites.

1. The Eagle Avenue site (I have no recolection of anything about this)

2. The Erieview Site (Rememer this one, they actually wanted to build where the avenue district is and link it to the galleria!)

3. The Lakefront Site (Hello Jimmy DeClowna)

4. The Norfolk Southern Site (South of the jake and I-90 that wolstein was trying to peddle for anything and everything)

5. The W. 3rd Warehouse District Site (Barf)

6. The TC Riverfront Site (Barf)

7. The Mall Site

 

The first 5 of these were all thrown in the trash for a variety of reasons that made them impractical... So I just don't understand why on earth they have to drudge this crap back up.  The commission actually reccommended the riverfront site with a gagillion conditions stating they had to show they could do X, X, and X or they would reccommend the mall site.  The mayor then formed some Convention Facilities Committee or some such thing to thoroughly research these 2 sites and come up with a conclusion.  Which they did... and they came out with the mall site (in '05 or '06, I can't remember)... So why can't we move on from this. Sigh....

 

 

By the way... this is the last I remember of DeClowna's proposed lakefront site:

 

 

 

 

Horrible!!!!

I don't think it's bad.  It's a little "vegas-y".

 

I just want the darn thing downtown so that the IX, can close and people come into the city for conventions, meetings, etc. and we'll see more money spent in downtown proper.

Vegas is right!! And what happens there should definitely stay there in this case.

 

BTW, I thought the plan was to keep the IX Center, and this would allow the downtown CC to be smaller???

 

I don't think it's bad.  It's a little "vegas-y".

 

I just want the darn thing downtown so that the IX, can close and people come into the city for conventions, meetings, etc. and we'll see more money spent in downtown proper.

We'll just have to wait and see if enough people's pockets get padded to make sure that the convention center goes on a site that is connected to Tower City, no matter how much sense it makes to build on the current site.

 

IF, and only IF, the Scranton Peninsula were to be developed... was part of the initial negotiations with the city and Forest City for them to win the site proposal.  However, Forest City BACKED OUT years ago on developing the site with the convention center.  Am I the only one who actually remembers this?  Why is it that these politicos are trying to please this company so much?  I just don't get it.

I don't think it's bad.  It's a little "vegas-y".

 

Probably why Jimmy "Eat Some More-a" Dimora likes that site.

In regards to Dimora's lakefront site... what good exactly is a "mixed use" development that is surrounded by cleveland browns stadium and a convention center.  Talk about being stuck on an island.  You would be surrounded by not one but two HUGE places that are virtually lifeless the overwhelming majority of the time.

As the Talking Heads used to sing "Stop making sense"

In regards to "eat some more-a's" lakefront site... what good exactly is a "mixed use" development that is surrounded by cleveland browns stadium and a convention center.  Talk about being stuck on an island.  You would be surrounded by not one but two HUGE places that are virtually lifeless the overwhelming majority of the time.

 

Are there any requirements for state and federal dollars in play here? I know that with some programs, the applicant has to provide at least four alternatives when applying for dollars. I really can't see how the Stark land or the port land make any sense at all. I'm hoping that they are just filling some requirement. God, please!

3231, interesting point.

Talking about dollars;

Does the city still need to pay Raymond Park if a new convention center is built?

Or was this adressed in the IX land swap with Brook Park and NASA Lewis?

http://www.clevescene.com/2006-04-05/news/the-sweetest-deal/full

quote from article

"For example, if a new center is built in 2009, Cleveland will be forced to pay Park $14 million. Two years later, the price falls to $9 million."

Here's your chance to have a say on convention center/MedMart plans

Posted by Sarah Hollander

May 07, 2008 17:31PM

 

What: Public forum on Cleveland's convention center/Medical Mart project

When: May 22, 5:30 p.m.

Where: Centers for Families and Children, 4500 Euclid Ave., Cleveland

 

Three Cleveland-based construction and engineering companies will help whittle the choices for a new downtown convention center site. The Greater Cleveland Partnership hired the companies recently for an independent cost comparison and site specific research.

 

A committee appointed by the partnership, the region's largest chamber of commerce, plans to recommend a location to Cuyahoga County Commissioners by early June.

 

Commissioners signed a tentative agreement with Chicago-based Merchandise Mart Properties, Inc. to build and operate a convention center and Medical Mart complex estimated to cost more than $450 million plus interest...

 

more at: http://www.cleveland.com/medicalmart/

Yes - lets keep talking and holding forums and hiring consultants

Go back and read the history before attending the forum and see if anything really new is coming to light.

http://www.cleveland.com/convention/index.ssf?/convention/more/archive.html

Back in 2000, Commissioner Dimora recommended the land west of Browns Stadium

He's still a Commissioner and that site is back on the table

How much has been spent on "Consultants" through this 8 year process?

According to the article, at least with this round, taxpayers' money isn't being used. Then what money is, is my question?

 

I think consultants are a good thing to utilize in a project such as this one. This project can literally shape the city for decades to come physically for better or worse depending on what location choice is made. I think deliberation, advice and a bit of patience is good.

According to the article, at least with this round, taxpayers' money isn't being used. Then what money is, is my question?

 

A fair portion of the Partnership's revenues come from dues.

According to the article, at least with this round, taxpayers' money isn't being used. Then what money is, is my question?

 

A fair portion of the Partnership's revenues come from dues.

 

Thanks for that.

As odd/cramped as the riverfront site is, any consideration of the Warehouse District site is flat-out short-sighted and absurd. A picture is worth a thousand words, and this image shows the footprint of two comparable markets' convention centers - Columbus in red, Pittsburgh in yellow. Should they just obliterate the Grand Arcade and the West 6th block? Just vaporize the Rockefeller Building and the Renaissance Hotel while you're at it!!! Maybe put the truck marshalling yard on Public Square!!! :weird:  :roll:

 

Looks like the county owes MayDay a couple thousand dollars in consulting fees!!!!

Pfft! I'll take a case of Burning River - it's even on sale at the moment! :drunk:

 

Now maybe I've rushed to a conclusion - if they designed the main exhibit floor on a BIG spiraling ramp like the Guggenheim in NYC, that would give them plenty of "contiguous" floorspace! They could always expand it like a soft-serve ice cream cone as needed!  :lol:

There is only one logical place to put it.  its current site

Hey Mayday... for my own personal amusement do you want to place those outlines on the riversite...

What kind of DORK... oh alright :roll: Remember - 12pack of Burning River :drunk:

 

Yes, for the sake of Cleveland, I hope that it goes on the current site.  Give the medical mart to Forest City so they can shut up. 

I guess my frustration is with the surface lots on Public Sqaure and the lack of confidence in the Pesht project.  I feal as though if we pass up the opportunity to put a hotel near PS with a CC and the MM in Higbee's, we may be looking at surface lots for sometime.  I understand that the river site is basically a surface lot right now, but I would rather work from the inside out starting from the epicenter (PS) of Cleveland.

Yes. That looks very good... who needs Huron Road, the Landmark building, or the skylight office towers... or a functioning river.  Lets be the first city ever to build a vertical convention center and see how it works out.

 

Hopefully now people are starting to realize why the current site is the only viable site.

Hmmm...that graphic is making me think we could do it on the Riverfront site.  Just make it real long and thin- that's the ticket!

I guess my frustration is with the surface lots on Public Sqaure and the lack of confidence in the Pesht project.  I feal as though if we pass up the opportunity to put a hotel near PS with a CC and the MM in Higbee's, we may be looking at surface lots for sometime.  I understand that the river site is basically a surface lot right now, but I would rather work from the inside out starting from the epicenter (PS) of Cleveland.

 

I feel your pain... however, better to be done right than just done.  Trust me, this thing would be worse than surface lots.

I guess my frustration is with the surface lots on Public Sqaure and the lack of confidence in the Pesht project.  I feal as though if we pass up the opportunity to put a hotel near PS with a CC and the MM in Higbee's, we may be looking at surface lots for sometime.  I understand that the river site is basically a surface lot right now, but I would rather work from the inside out starting from the epicenter (PS) of Cleveland.

 

I feel your pain... however, better to be done right than just done.  Trust me, this thing would be worse than surface lots.

 

How so, not to be a smart arse, but just wondering. 

I guess my frustration is with the surface lots on Public Sqaure and the lack of confidence in the Pesht project.  I feal as though if we pass up the opportunity to put a hotel near PS with a CC and the MM in Higbee's, we may be looking at surface lots for sometime.  I understand that the river site is basically a surface lot right now, but I would rather work from the inside out starting from the epicenter (PS) of Cleveland.

 

HUH???  So you would sacrifice the quality of life of the people in HWD just to build an obsolete building?  Do you think that is an appropriate way to spend county/city funds?

 

One Question:  where will the trucks go and where will the loading docks be located since you want this in the HWD?

 

If we build behind TC, there is no room for expansion, so why put ourselves in the same position we are in now?  At least with the current mall site they can build DOWN and north a bit, build a new convention sized hotel attached and with hide the massive truck loading docks.

 

this is our opportunity to fix any short comings at the current site, not build in the wrong place then 15 years from now have "issues".

The Peak Oil thread is making me wonder if a Convention Center is a good investment at all.

Listen to you with your forward/big-picture thinking! :roll:

 

;-)

The Peak Oil thread is making me wonder if a Convention Center is a good investment at all.

 

Why?  Can you explain?

 

Then I would like to ask, is anyone here familiar with the uses of a convention center?  Or do people think it's only about large conventions?