I guess my frustration is with the surface lots on Public Sqaure and the lack of confidence in the Pesht project.  I feal as though if we pass up the opportunity to put a hotel near PS with a CC and the MM in Higbee's, we may be looking at surface lots for sometime.  I understand that the river site is basically a surface lot right now, but I would rather work from the inside out starting from the epicenter (PS) of Cleveland.

 

I feel your pain... however, better to be done right than just done.  Trust me, this thing would be worse than surface lots.

 

How so, not to be a smart arse, but just wondering. 

 

Your not being a smart arse.  The abreviated version is that:

A.  Convention centers are for all intensive purposes large ugly boxes.  Unfortunately there is no real way around this.  The function and purpose of the space dictate that, pretty much that's the way it HAS to be, otherwise they don't function correctly. 

B.  In addition to the large bland box in this area you need a very large loading dock and marshall yard.  The last time they explored this site they jammed this area in the "back" of the center, which just so happens to be west 6th street.  Imagine walking to dinner at Naughty Mermaid, Mallorca, Metropolitan, or the Blue Pointe, and staring out at a giant loading dock.

C. Convention Centers as a rule are black holes.  They suck the life out of areas around them.  Why?  People walk into them at about 7am and don't leave them until around 6.  Meanwhile they are hulking structures that take up multiple blocks, so city pedestrians don't want to take the time to walk all the way around them so they avoid the area.  Try to see if you ever see "street life" around the Columbus CC.

D.  As you can see by MayDay's graphic these lots aren't even large enough, which is why they talk about doing stupid things like building over superior.

 

It's a mess.  It's the worst idea ever.  The warehouse district NEEDS to be developed mixed use, it would be tragic to waste such great space.  As much as I loathe the lots I will wait for the right project, rather than see the wrong one and have to live with it for the rest of my lifetime.  All these reasons are why the current site makes so much more sense.  In addition to having the space, and most of it already owned, and the infastructure in place.  It can force the county out... and they can be the anchor tennant to pesht.  It makes so much sense it's frightening.  Pesht is everything the county needs in a site. Centralized, easy access from public transportation, large enough to consolidate all it's offices into one location... generates more than enough foot traffic to bolster the retail environment.  Only our moronic commissioners get in the way of making this happen.

a convention center is never that great an idea.

 

makes me think they should just minimally renovate and update the current center -- that would be the cheapest option anyway -- and wash their hands of the whole thing.

 

eh, but that would make it like the brt of cc's.  :laugh:

Backing onto what Mayor McCleveland states below, to use a bigger example, all one has to do is look at the Washington Convention center.

 

It's spurred quite a few hotels and major renovations of others but the community has suffered greatly.  Yes some restaurants opened, but it cut a neighborhood in half, and the trucks ramble down residential streets.

 

We all know parking is horrible in DC and the residents complain that they cant get to their homes because of tour buses and trucks.  they put a truck deck on an upper level so lights from the trucks shine into homes and since they are eleveated the noise comes right into those people homes.

 

Now imagine building a black hole from Superior to Johnson Court that is built over St. Clair and you've got the 42 Street-Port Authority bus station in downtown Cleveland.

 

Not sexy!

I'll say it again. If the new CC did nothing...absolutely nothing BUT bridge over the shoreway/rail, linking downtown to North Coast Harbor, it would be well worth the investment.

 

This has been depicted in some drawings although the specifics, legality, etc. have not been released to my knowledge.

"for all intensive purposes"

 

Ahem... intents and purposes. :-)

 

I'll say it again. If the new CC did nothing...absolutely nothing BUT bridge over the shoreway/rail, linking downtown to North Coast Harbor, it would be well worth the investment.

 

This has been depicted in some drawings although the specifics, legality, etc. have not been released to my knowledge.

 

DING  DING  DING.  AND WE HAVE WINNER

I'll say it again. If the new CC did nothing...absolutely nothing BUT bridge over the shoreway/rail, linking downtown to North Coast Harbor, it would be well worth the investment.

 

This has been depicted in some drawings although the specifics, legality, etc. have not been released to my knowledge.

 

reason # 8,873,652 that the current site is the only viable site.  And I believe it is fairly well detailed in the the "mall lakefront plan"...

 

http://planning.city.cleveland.oh.us/convention/detail.php?ID=ml

 

though personally I like the west mall plan to get rid of the craptitude of buildings just west of the mall and replace them with a new hotel / CC lobby (Forcing the county to pesht  :)). And if they ever need to expand they can go north.  But I'll take either.

"for all intensive purposes"

 

Ahem... intents and purposes. :-)

 

:-P

 

wow, i can't believe I didn't know that.  I feel like future Mrs. McCleveland when I had to inform her it wasn't "play it by year".

The Peak Oil thread is making me wonder if a Convention Center is a good investment at all.

 

Why?  Can you explain?

 

Then I would like to ask, is anyone here familiar with the uses of a convention center?  Or do people think it's only about large conventions?

 

If travel costs go up substantially, I doubt that the convention business will hold its ground, let alone expand.  We could be building a convention center right at the end of the oil era that allowed for the convention business to be lucrative.

 

Why don't you tell us a little about what you know convention centers are used for since this is apparently a part of your expertise?

The it's a good thing they will be building it on the mall site where it will be linked with Amtrack and the Ohio Hub where people won't need gas to get to it.  :)

I'm with X. In the future, a convention center might be a great place for growing crops year round.

I'm with X. In the future, a convention center might be a great place for growing crops year round.

 

Even better than that it would be burried under ground if convention centers across the universe die out.

I'm with X. In the future, a convention center might be a great place for growing crops year round.

 

Actually, I'm with you!  Where do you think I got the notion?

You mean I'm actually leading others by sharing information and advocating a new lifestyle?!?!

If the convention center stays in the current site, the County offices would have to relocate.  That would be an interesting twist.

Why don't you tell us a little about what you know convention centers are used for since this is apparently a part of your expertise?

 

Yeah it is, kinda since part of our conference business reports to me.  but inappropriate for discussion of the CC in Cleveland.

If the convention center stays in the current site, the County offices would have to relocate.  That would be an interesting twist.

 

Right, but as noted above, they could make an excellent tenant for Pesht.

Why don't you tell us a little about what you know convention centers are used for since this is apparently a part of your expertise?

 

Yeah it is, kinda since part of our conference business reports to me.  but inappropriate for discussion of the CC in Cleveland.

 

You asked the question.

If the convention center stays in the current site, the County offices would have to relocate.  That would be an interesting twist.

 

Right, but as noted above, they could make an excellent tenant for Pesht.

 

I don't know if they could afford the rents that Pesht would probably charge. Maybe they could consolidate inside the Huntington.

If the convention center stays in the current site, the County offices would have to relocate.  That would be an interesting twist.

 

Right, but as noted above, they could make an excellent tenant for Pesht.

 

I don't know if they could afford the rents that Pesht would probably charge. Maybe they could consolidate inside the Huntington.

 

Great idea, but isn't the floor plate issue going to be the same issue the county had at AmeriTrust?

If the convention center stays in the current site, the County offices would have to relocate.  That would be an interesting twist.

 

Right, but as noted above, they could make an excellent tenant for Pesht.

 

I don't know if they could afford the rents that Pesht would probably charge. Maybe they could consolidate inside the Huntington.

 

Great idea, but isn't the floor plate issue going to be the same issue the county had at AmeriTrust?

 

They could easily take over the Halle Building.  I'm still holding out hope they could come to some sort of mutually beneficial agreement at pesht.

If the convention center stays in the current site, the County offices would have to relocate.  That would be an interesting twist.

 

Right, but as noted above, they could make an excellent tenant for Pesht.

 

I don't know if they could afford the rents that Pesht would probably charge. Maybe they could consolidate inside the Huntington.

 

Great idea, but isn't the floor plate issue going to be the same issue the county had at AmeriTrust?

 

They could easily take over the Halle Building.  I'm still holding out hope they could come to some sort of mutually beneficial agreement at pesht.

 

does the Halle building have the floor plate required by the county along with the overall square footage?

I believe so... they definitely have the square footage.  That building is enormous and primarily vacant.

I believe so... they definitely have the square footage.  That building is enormous and primarily vacant.

I thought so, but the floor plate issue is what I'm thinking of, since many of the building downtown have columns in them and they want continuous space. and need ADA access which I guess - I'm not an architect - could be built in/retrofitted.

What they are saying about the MedMart here in Chicago -

 

http://www.chicagotribune.com/business/chi-fri-merchandise-mart-medicalmay09,0,6939185.story

Sounds like those guys are giving Cleveland the underdog rap.

"If there's no pickup on it, we'll think twice about moving forward with this large project."

 

 

hmm...

Sounds like those guys are giving Cleveland the underdog rap.

 

Well, unfortunately, Cleveland is the underdog -- right now.  The trick is to show the rest of the country (and the world) that we can be more.  This is one of those things that I'm sure will help immensely.

 

"If there's no pickup on it, we'll think twice about moving forward with this large project."

 

 

hmm...

 

That statement makes me nervous, too, but I don't they're going to have a problem in wooing tenants and trade shows to the new convention center.  The key will be the location (isn't it always?).  The rest will fall into place or is already there (the Clinic, UH, et. al.).

"If there's no pickup on it, we'll think twice about moving forward with this large project."

 

 

hmm...

 

I wouldn't read too much into that.  He's only stating exactly what was written into the agreement they signed, which basically said, after the location is set they have a certain time period to go out and find tennants, and if for some reason they can't land a certain number of tennants they can back out of the deal. I believe the county has the same option.

The fact that they will be running the convention center as well makes the deal more solid in my mind.

Agreed.

The time day and location for the

 

Convention Center site selection public forum

 

has been set. The county commissioners and the Greater Cleveland Partnership announced today that it will be held

 

5:30-7:30 p.m. May 22 at

The Center for Families and Children, 4500 Euclid Avenue, Cleveland

 

The center provides free parking in a lot off East 46th Street. The site is served by the #6, #9 and #32 RTA buses, with other bus routes within walking distance.

Man .. thank goodness they're opening it up to a public forum. Was worried about that.

Man .. thank goodness they're opening it up to a public forum. Was worried about that.

^The public forum is great, but I've read that the county is under no obligation to follow the forum's reccomendations or anyone else's. They will ultimately build it where they want it. :x

I think that's generally true for any public forum. I think they're generally a formality, but at least the public has the opportunity to voice their opinions. If there's outrage about a particular location, it can at least be voiced and heard there. Whether or not the commissioners listen, though, is another story.

Man .. thank goodness they're opening it up to a public forum. Was worried about that.

^The public forum is great, but I've read that the county is under no obligation to follow the forum's reccomendations or anyone else's. They will ultimately build it where they want it. :x

 

There won't be a forum recommendation, or likely even a consensus.  Forums aren't for decision making, they are for getting to public a chance to give some input into the decisions that will be made or have been made. At best.

They are just checking off a box. The commissioners are the last people who would take public opinion into consideration.

They are just checking off a box. The commissioners are the last people who would take public opinion into consideration.

Well atleast 2 or the 3

Oh you mean this one that I posted on May 7...  :-D

 

Here's your chance to have a say on convention center/MedMart plans

Posted by Sarah Hollander May 07, 2008 17:31PM

Categories: Medical, News Impact

What: Public forum on Cleveland's convention center/Medical Mart project When: May 22, 5:30 p.m. Where: Centers for Families and Children, 4500 Euclid Ave., ClevelandThree Cleveland-based construction and engineering companies will help whittle the choices for a new downtown convention center site.

The Greater Cleveland Partnership hired the companies recently for an independent cost comparison and site specific research.

 

A committee appointed by the partnership, the region's largest chamber of commerce, plans to recommend a location to Cuyahoga County Commissioners by early June.

 

more at: http://www.cleveland.com/medicalmart/

 

But for those of us who scan many of these pages and don't read the gory details in the text of articles, we often miss those details. Like I did!

As odd/cramped as the riverfront site is, any consideration of the Warehouse District site is flat-out short-sighted and absurd. A picture is worth a thousand words, and this image shows the footprint of two comparable markets' convention centers - Columbus in red, Pittsburgh in yellow. Should they just obliterate the Grand Arcade and the West 6th block? Just vaporize the Rockefeller Building and the Renaissance Hotel while you're at it!!! Maybe put the truck marshalling yard on Public Square!!! :weird:  :roll:

 

 

MayDay,

 

I don't know how to make these interesting diagrams. How would these footprints fit onto Gray's Green (bound by E.14th and E.18th, Carnegie and Prospect).  If you have a second, could you make one? Pretty please.

^^OOOOhhhhhh KJP got a promotion.

 

Gray Cells Green? :wtf:

 

 

Red = Columbus; Yellow = Pittsburgh; Blue = Gray's Green site:

 

Looking at it, and the adjacent lots - I have to say if they could creatively incorporate the Convocation Center, that could be interesting.

Ha, I love the Grey Cells Green reference. That band hasn't crossed my mind in about 16 years.

 

Thanks for the graphic.

^^OOOOhhhhhh KJP got a promotion.

 

 

Be afraid. Be very afraid.

Looking at it, and the adjacent lots - I have to say if they could creatively incorporate the Convocation Center, that could be interesting.

 

Agreed- that is exactly the kind of CC site I would like to see (if not the current site): part of Downtown but not taking up prime space.  Close to PHS and the BRT, plenty of room for associated development...

Interesting....I kinda like that idea.

Ha, I love the Grey Cells Green reference. That band hasn't crossed my mind in about 16 years.

 

Thanks for the graphic.

 

No problem - and I've moved on to Juliana Hatfield (the ONLY song of hers that I like):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E5uzLPB8iOg

 

And keeping things on topic, as I look at the Gray's Green site, it looks like a better site as far as fitting without shoehorning, but the transit/pedestrian access falls short.

 

 

And keeping things on topic, as I look at the Gray's Green site, it looks like a better site as far as fitting without shoehorning, but the transit/pedestrian access falls short.

 

Tansit/Ped access is definitely not as good as Tower City or the current site, but it's not terrible, is it?  Still very close to Euclid and very walkable to the parts of Downtown East of 9th Street (most notably- Playhouse Square).  If the BRT has a free downtown transit zone, that could do a lot of the linking to the rest of downtown.

^To me who routinely walks a minimum of a mile on my lunch hour, it's fine. To Joe Conventioneer, not so much. But then again if they build a convention-sized hotel on site so the timid types never have to leave, that'd probably work.