When did this become a $1 billion project?

500M project  they will sell interest bearing bonds to be paid off with tax dollars by the time you service the debt with interest it will come to appox 900M round it off to 1B./ a hundred million here, a hundred million there, don't worry it's tax money LOL

This is just my opinion, but I more faith in seeing the second coming of Christ before seeing a new Convention center. And considering how long this has been dragging on, it does not suprise me that the bill is now at 1 Billion. 

Yeah, I've been pretty skeptical too lately.

My (probably crazed and naive) hope with all of this "no news" news is that Nance/the county/MMPI is finalizing plans for the current convention center site, purposefully keeping Forest City in the dark. You know FC would scream bloody murder if they sensed there was a deal imminent on the current CC site. Hence, the quiet until things are finalized.

 

On another note, does anyone else think it's sort of bizarre how many people are complaining (not this most recent article, thankfully) that we've raised some money for this before starting construction? I understand how some people are concerned that this money will go to where we've been told it will go. But at the same time, I feel like we're saving up a down payment for a house, as opposed to just shopping around and then putting $0 down and financing the whole thing with a huge mortgage.

 

Yikes, if individual citizens did that sort of thing a little more, we probably wouldn't be in the situation we are in now!  :|

 

 

http://blog.cleveland.com/metro/2009/01/cleveland_mayor_frank_jackson.html

 

Cleveland Mayor Frank Jackson fumes over Med Mart delays

Posted by kturner January 01, 2009 20:30PM

Gus Chan/Plain DealerCleveland Mayor Frank Jackson

 

CLEVELAND - Mayor Frank Jackson said Thursday that he is so troubled by delays in the proposed medical mart/convention center project that he will go to Chicago to talk to the company picked to run the mart.

 

County commissioners decided earlier this week to give Merchandise Mart Properties Inc. an extra month to decide on a location for the Cleveland medical mart. The long-anticipated $1 billion project would bring a new convention center and a showroom for medical companies...

Go Frank! 

Good job Frank, you're finally doing something!

Frank really needs a PR person.  I really like the fact that he gets stuff done without being in front of tv cameras, but dammit... how is the public who votes for the mayor going to know that he has actually been a part of the ongoing discussions between the county and MMPI? 

 

I'm glad he's going to bat for the region on this.  Go Frank!! 

Frank really needs a PR person.  I really like the fact that he gets stuff done without being in front of tv cameras, but dammit... how is the public who votes for the mayor going to know that he has actually been a part of the ongoing discussions between the county and MMPI? 

 

I'm glad he's going to bat for the region on this.  Go Frank!! 

 

They need qualified PR people and a real PR leader, with an overall PR Strategy for City hall and each of it's neighborhoods. 

 

They....nevermind, don't get me started.

That's great if people want to make sure we get something full-scale, didn't think that was going to be a problem.  But if MMPI wants it on the mall then put it there.  Despite their name, Greater Cleveland Partnership isn't a partner on this project but MMPI is.  Why would Jackson want to get stuck with an obsolete complex on the mall?  There's no other home-run redevelopment possibility for that complex since it happens to be a convention center that the city is built around.  Put the convention center there and be done with it.  Getting all of downtown functioning again will benefit Tower City much more than would sticking something extra directly onto it.  The powers pushing the TC location could damage their long-term interests if they succeed in bogarting this project.  At least Jackson is advocating a big picture approach.

i didn't know what to make of that article.

 

on one hand i am pleased the mayor is speaking out and publically has taken an impartial stance to get it moving.

 

otoh, privately i wonder how in the pocket of sam miller & fce he is and what he will really plead with mmpi behind closed doors.

 

whatever happens, i am glad he is so publically in the mix now. hopefully the rightful mall site wins out.

 

 

Kinda sad that the private sector cant do this on there own,just like in NYC. This city has become so communistic in apperance and actions. Just look at the puppet Frank Jackson. He has the means and the space to make this happen. So he lets the county take charge. Idiot

And Edsiou is back, with ever so poignant and insightful commentary. :roll:

Cleveland Mayor Frank Jackson's influence on medical mart doubted - Analysis

Commissioners want his support but don't need his OK to pick site Jackson frustrated, but may have no major influence on project

Monday, January 05, 2009

Joe Guillen and Henry J. Gomez

Plain Dealer Reporters

 

As Mayor Frank Jackson hurls himself into the talks to land Cleveland a coveted medical mart-convention center complex, some close to the project doubt he will be a difference-maker.

 

Jackson has cheered the plan in speeches yet had little influence during closed-door negotiations between Cuyahoga County officials and Merchandise Mart Properties Inc., the Chicago company that will own and operate the mart...

 

 

http://www.cleveland.com/news/plaindealer/index.ssf?/base/cuyahoga/1231147866253670.xml&coll=2&thispage=3

The whole process still has to go through the city. Since Cimperman is the councilman for downtown  would he be the point man.

The whole process still has to go through the city. Since Cimperman is the councilman for downtown  would he be the point man.

:wtf:

 

Merchandise Mart Properties Inc. exec says firm won't be rushed to decide on location

http://blog.cleveland.com/metro/2009/01/merchandise_mart_properties_in.html

Posted by Joe Guillen

^This article outlines one of my biggest peeves regarding this project- why are major downtown business interests making what is essentially an urban planning decision?  I personally hope that MMPI is favoring the current site for the convention center.  Remember, Cleveland's planning commission decided over FOUR years ago that the site for the convention center should remain at the mall.  Business interests, however, have deemed that the site should be at Tower City.  Who, between the two entities, has the best interests of the city at heart? 

And which one had a conflict of interest?

 

The GCP process was fatally flawed-- it allowed FCE to nominate themselves.  They shouldn't have been allowed anywhere near the decision process.  Why Nance was willing to put his name on it is beyond me.  He apparently has credibility to burn.  It is entirely appropriate for MMPI to ignore that recommendation.

^While I agree with your point, technically one could argue that both studies had a conflict of interest. Cleveland's planning commission had a conflict of interest in that its in the best interest of the city as a governing body to choose the property it already owns. And of course its in the GCP's best interest to choose the property a member of it already owns.

 

What says a lot to me about this process is...

Falanga said MMPI is not favoring a site. "If we were being steered to the mall site, this decision would've been made long ago," he said.

Why isn't anyone trying to steer them to the mall site?

Why isn't anyone trying to steer them to the mall site?

 

Good question.  It has plenty of advocates on here, but then again so does the other site.  I view the city's position as being very different from GCP's.  Cities are supposed to advocate for their assets, and they're supposed to push projects in the direction of good urban planning.  Nobody stands to recieve any personal gain from the medmart going on public land.

 

GCP, on the other hand, selected one business interest over others and over the public.  That interest, alone, would reap a windfall if the project went up on its astoundingly overpriced land.  That interest's tenants would also get a disproportionate share of the spin-off business generated by convention traffic.  The public would be left with a deserted complex that has limited utility outside of its intended civic role.

 

In advocating the mall site, if they were to do so, the city would be pushing the interests of the many over those of the few, and favoring the big picture over immediate personal gain. 

^Well said.

'Focus:' What's going on with the Medical mart project?

http://www.wkyc.com/news/news_article.aspx?storyid=105115

 

Video link: http://www.wkyc.com/video/default.aspx?maven_playerId=articleplayer&maven_referralPlaylistId=playlist&maven_referralObject=998594689

 

CLEVELAND -- A lot of questions are surrounding the Medical Mart Mart/Convention Center project.

 

Ideally, it would be a showcase for health care products. It's considered the region's best hope for a difference-making project to bring jobs, dollars and visitors to Cleveland.

 

But the project is taking years to go from idea to reality.

 

Mayor Frank Jackson was so concerned; he went to Chicago to get answers. He came back with a glowing report that the project is moving ahead, not being downsized and should be what was promised.

 

With so much at stake, there's lots of questions to ask.

 

Senior Political Correspondent Tom Beres sits down with Cuyahoga County Commissioner Peter Lawson Jones and Anchors Carole Sullivan and Eric Mansfield to answer some of those questions.

fabulous :x :?

 

Convention expert Bruce Harris supports Tower City medical mart site

Posted by Jim Nichols/Plain Dealer Reporter January 19, 2009 04:45AM

Categories: Medical, Medical Mart, Real Time News

 

Tracy Boulian/The Plain Dealer

Bruce Harris, one of the most influential figures in convention and conference booking, says that the Tower City site is best for the medical mart complex in Cleveland.

One of the most influential figures in convention and conference booking says Cleveland could wreck its future as a meeting place if Cuyahoga County commissioners pick the existing Cleveland Convention Center as the site for a replacement facility.

 

continued at>>>>>>

http://blog.cleveland.com/metro/2009/01/tower_city_medical_mart_site_u.html

 

I don't know anymore, nor do I care. Put it wherever the f$&k you want already, Cleveland.

 

Also, I could care LESS about what some guy in TWINSBURG, a SUBURB, thinks about this project. His thoughts on where the convention center should go are obviously reflective of the fact that he has no desire for authentic urbanity.

 

I still think that if they choose the Tower City site, it would be one of the biggest mistakes in Cleveland's urban planning history.

Edit- I don't know anymore, nor do I care. Put it wherever the f$&k you want Forest City wants already, Cleveland.

 

I think you misspoke, I fixed it for you!  :wink:

If the Plain Dealer wants to shill for the Tower City site then they should put it on the editorial page rather than the front page and call it news.  This is the second article in the past few weeks where the PD is creating the news rather than reporting it in regards to the convention center.  The other was that mindless piece where the FC guy complained nobody had contacted him for ages. 

I think you misspoke, I fixed it for you! :wink:

 

Thank you. :)

 

I'm really hoping that Mayor Jackson and MMPI have some sense on this one.

Further damning that site, Harris argued, is that a replacement convention center would be mostly underground.

 

As opposed to being up against the ass-end of Tower City with gorgeous views of the undeveloped minefield of the Scranton Peninsula?  Any convention center I've been in has acres of windowless rooms, so who cares whether you're underground.  DC's convention center has two subterranean levels, including the gi-normous exhibit halls.  If aboveground, you end up with a windowless fortress anyway.

 

Harris insisted he has no ties to principals at Forest City Enterprises

 

And we all trust that statement, right? 

And another thing...for a so called expert this guy sure does not have his facts right.  He said hotels are "blocks away"... I can name two right across the street from the mall (and I am sure a connecting hotel will eventually be built on the administration office site...why worry what is there now...if this guy is an expert then surely he knows that a center is, or is suppose to attract adjacent development).

 

Also he states restaurants are blocks away and not connected.  First, what great restaurants are in Tower City currently?  The two major restaurant areas in Cleveland are the Warehouse District and E. 4th.  People would have to walk a few short blocks from either site (in fact you could argue it is easier to get to the Warehouse District from the mall since you don't have to cross Superior which is like a eight lane highway).  This guy seems like an idiot and is clearly on somebody's payroll.

I think you misspoke, I fixed it for you! :wink:

 

Thank you. :)

 

I'm really hoping that Mayor Jackson and MMPI have some sense on this one.

 

Regardless of what MMPI comes out with, or what the mayor wants... the commissioner's make the call.  They are the one's we have to hope have some sense.

And another thing...for a so called expert this guy sure does not have his facts right. He said hotels are "blocks away"... I can name two right across the street from the mall (and I am sure a connecting hotel will eventually be built on the administration office site...why worry what is there now...if this guy is an expert then surely he knows that a center is, or is suppose to attract adjacent development).

 

Also he states restaurants are blocks away and not connected. First, what great restaurants are in Tower City currently? The two major restaurant areas in Cleveland are the Warehouse District and E. 4th. People would have to walk a few short blocks from either site (in fact you could argue it is easier to get to the Warehouse District from the mall since you don't have to cross Superior which is like a eight lane highway). This guy seems like an idiot and is clearly on somebody's payroll.

 

Exactly. The fact that he considers the WHD or even E 4th street so far away is astounding to me, and clearly reflects his suburban mentality. I mean, are conventioneers really that unwilling to walk a few blocks?? If so, that makes me very, very sad for America in general. When will we learn to stop catering to the suburbanites??

 

Regardless of what MMPI comes out with, or what the mayor wants... the commissioner's make the call. They are the one's we have to hope have some sense.

 

You're right. I forgot about that. I really, really hope they finally have some sense on this one. I mean, I just think it would leave an even more bitter taste in taxpayers' mouths to find out that the Tower City site would be the site of the convention center because it leaves the current one empty! I mean, that shouldn't necessarily dictate the site of a new convention center. But to claim that the Tower City site is a better one just because of its connectivity to Tower City is LUDICROUS to me.

One would hope that some new restaurants and certainly a new hotel would be developed around the mall site to go with this.  Without a doubt, the mall area is better for creating spin-off development than is Tower City.  It's also much easier to get trucks into, compared with the nook behind Tower City, a critical factor Mr. Harris failed to mention.  Maybe the site's awkward placement is his "fatal, as-yet-unrevealed flaw" that everyone else has been aware of for some time.

Just feels like we're fighting a losing battle, and I definitely do not want to lose the Medical Mart just because we can't decide over two sites.  Would that really be worth it?  I'm just thinking in the scheme of things, it's a wash.  Getting the Med Mart would be a big win for a city that doesn't win much.  I was fighting for the Mall Site, but if its at the expense of the project all together, Tower City works fine with me.

Tower City can have the site AS LONG AS the Scranton Peninsula is developed.  And I ain't talkin about 30 years from now, more like within the next 5 years. Dammit.

Just feels like we're fighting a losing battle, and I definitely do not want to lose the Medical Mart just because we can't decide over two sites.  Would that really be worth it?  I'm just thinking in the scheme of things, it's a wash.  Getting the Med Mart would be a big win for a city that doesn't win much.  I was fighting for the Mall Site, but if its at the expense of the project all together, Tower City works fine with me.

 

Not to berate you at all, baseballmn, because your point is somewhat valid.

 

But I'm sick and tired of this mentality. This, "Oh, we can't push for more because we're little ol' poor Cleveland, so we should just settle for the scraps we can get. Boo hoo." B*LLSH*T. This is a terrible mentality to have, and Clevelanders need to stop having it. I know that just getting the Medical Mart is important. That's very true. But the location is just as important .. because it will affect the city's urban fabric and future for decades to come. That's not a decision I want made lightly, and if it is made lightly, I'd rather it not be made at all..

Permanently obsoleting the mall complex would be quite destructive.  That makes me lean toward the get it right or don't do it position.  I also haven't seen a satisfying explanation of how they'll prevent the TC CC from being a logistical clusterfunk.

If money were not a consideration, I would definitely say go with the mall site on the level we have seen in some renderings where it is extended out from under the malls and reaches towards the lake.  However, given the cost cap being placed on the project, my feeling is that the TC site will produce better economic results for the City... although it is certainly not the best plan in terms of "urban" planning.

 

Bottom line is the Twinsburg "expert" is probably right.  As much as it might piss urban enthusiasts off, out of towners will likely find the TC site more appealing and convenient... especially in the colder months of the year.

 

I also hold out some hope that a CC at the TC site will somehow spur FCE to finally do something with Scranton Peninsula.  On that subject, does anyone know why the CC could not go there?.... seems to be plenty of room.

non-sequitor...being that the state of ohio has its head up its own regarding tax breaks for film production in the state, any argument for tower city that includes the idea of turning the old convention center into production studio space is kinda moot at this point.  no?

^yeah, but it won't stop the powers-that-be from using that argument to explain why it's ok that they're leaving the current CC to rot away.

I hold out no hope that FCE will do anything in Cleveland that they don't get public money to do.

If money were not a consideration, I would definitely say go with the mall site on the level we have seen in some renderings where it is extended out from under the malls and reaches towards the lake.  However, given the cost cap being placed on the project, my feeling is that the TC site will produce better economic results for the City... although it is certainly not the best plan in terms of "urban" planning.

 

Bottom line is the Twinsburg "expert" is probably right.  As much as it might piss urban enthusiasts off, out of towners will likely find the TC site more appealing and convenient... especially in the colder months of the year.

 

I also hold out some hope that a CC at the TC site will somehow spur FCE to finally do something with Scranton Peninsula.  On that subject, does anyone know why the CC could not go there?.... seems to be plenty of room.

 

This is EXACTLY what I was thinking.  As a planning student, I am pissed about this situation and I know the mall is the best site.  HOWEVER, when I consider the people who will visit this center, TC is the right choice, no matter how monstrous this box will look behind TC.  We can ridicule this Bruce Harris guy for being a suburbanite, but let's face it...a lot of the convention visitors who will use this place will be suburbanites who think like him.  Love or hate Forest City, TC is one of the best examples of a mixed use, well connected facility, and it is just as much an asset to this city as the mall is...and tower city is still our landmark tower...this is just the latest chapter of planning drama that has played out in this city since the group plan was built and we were blessed with 2 great civic spaces (both of which could be better cared for, but i guess thats another forum topic)...whats cleveland's civic center...public square and tower city...or the malls of the group plan...we've never decided and both spaces need help so the story continues...and i've ranted off topic so i'm done! ;-)

Just get the project done even though I do prefer the mall site. I think the riverfront site would make a GREAT future casino site ... when that happens too....

Could it be that the pushers of the the TC CC magic box are waiting for a magician to come forward with a one size fits all design that will not cost millions in support towers and let the Commissioners forget that there might be ancillary web of road structures(paid for potentially by some other government body) that will need to be created to support this overhanging structure?

 

I think for FC to get this, they will have to have the most vague of design plans and just plead ignorance as to the scope of the project to accomplish a finished CC.

While the Mall site would be an awesome link to the lakefront, I think the Twinsburg "expert" has a point regarding the fall and winter conventions that could literally allow visitors to never set foot out in the cold. That would be unique.

 

That being said, Scranton Peninsula MUST be developed. What kind of view do we expect to give our visitors? It's bad enough that Ritz Carlton has to look out on that wasteland.

 

Either site being announced at this point will please me. Let's build this.

The biggest problem with the Tower City site is Forest City and the image of corruption that they have garnered.  Forest City is so active donating to politicians that it is difficult, even for our less-than-clean commissioners, to back a site that provides vast monetary advantage to one company/land owner versus another site that will likely benefit dozens of surrounding property owners plus rehabilitating a city landmark.  The Marriott is across the street and the Sheraton and Hyatt are a mere block away from the mall.  Recommendations have included a major hotel connected to the CC, so that will be 4 hotels within a block. 

 

And the "connectivity" of an airport RTA link is almost a moot point because it is very unlikely that people staying at the Ritz or Renaissance will take public transportation to save $10 versus a cab when their company is providing them with a $200+ per night luxury hotel room.  The summary of statements of the guy from Twinsburg given in the PD has a lot of holes.

 

The political influence Forest City wields is not just local matter either. Remember Bill Richardson?  He was just nominated for Commerce Secretary by Obama but withdrew the nomination since the FBI is investigating him for giving favors to a large donor (not Forest City).  Richardson changed a New Mexico state law to allow Forest City to purchase 3,000 acres in Albuquerque from the state for a mere $3,000 per acre (and $290,000 in campaign contributions from Forest City and the controlling family).  This recent NY Times article explains the situation and casts a shadow of corruption onto Forest City's dealing with Richardson.  It's not hard to imagine Forest City being implicated with a politician under FBI investigation for taking bribes in the form of campaign donations.

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/01/11/us/11newmexico.html?ref=politics&pagewanted=all

 

This matters because Forest City donates to nearly every local politician.  They do not want to develop Scranton Peninsula.  They have not proposed putting up any of their own cash for this project, and they probably can't even afford to borrow to do so now. 

 

The Tower City site isn't altogether bad.  But it isn't clearly better to a such a degree to overcome the "corruption" image that Forest City brings with it that the commissioners desperately need to avoid.

^Which is why the Commissioners want MMPI to make the decision, so there is no potential cry from county residents about the commissioners backing of FC's site (even though the company said it wouldn't develop the Scranton Peninsula with the convention center).  FC might have donated to the commissioners, but they are still liable to the public.

 

What really irks me is how FC has the PD in it's pocket.  We have not seen a story from the PD about the benefits of the current convention site SINCE Forest City began pitching their site plan.  Talk about unbiased journalism, especially when one of the sites is actually owned by the public.

^In fairness to the PD, Litt has been (justifiably) harsh in his assessment of the TC site, no?