^In fairness to the PD, Litt has been (justifiably) harsh in his assessment of the TC site, no?

 

Good point. He has, thankfully.

^In fairness to the PD, Litt has been (justifiably) harsh in his assessment of the TC site, no?

 

Yes he has.  But again, the public has not been given an unbiased story showing the benefits of having the convention center at it's current site since Forest City jumped into the debate. 

Perhaps a recommendation/story from an authority of urban planning from an urban planning point of view..... 

Certainly there is someone from CSU/Levin that could give their "recommendation". 

Of course that wouldnt get any coverage by the pd.  Maybe a television news story.....   

     

Just wait, I'm sure that when the TC site is finally chosen, THEN the PD will run front page stories about how bad a choice it was and how "it's just another missed opportunity for the poorest city in the universe."

Scott Wolstein wants a Flats location....  Some nifty quotes by Scott as well...

 

http://blog.cleveland.com/business/2009/01/developer_scott_wolstein_float.html

 

The east bank of the Flats suddenly is getting attention as the third potential site for a medical mart and convention center.  Developer Scott Wolstein quietly has been pitching 21 acres of lakefront land for a convention center and medical showplace. He says the plan would be cheaper than two leading alternatives and could revive his stalled Flats East Bank development.

CHOPPED

Oh boy...have at it guys and gals.

the more competition, the better.  i was never completely sold on either location anyway.

Well it's better than the Tower City site to me, and I love his quote - that made my night.  I'm glad somebody had the guts to say it.

 

I would be VERY concerned, however, about the design - a single use ugly box would be an awful use for that space. 

I agree, this site is better than Tower City. Wolstein raises some very interest points. Letting the East Bank of the Flats lay fallow may be more damaging than placing the convention center behind Tower City.

I don't know about this whole Flats location - there would still be issues with truck access being wedged between two rail lines, and the existing port operations to the north and east.  And the back ass of Tower City is still only two (indoor) blocks from Public Square, and at the rail/transit hub of town, with attached hotels, restaurants, and retail, as well as a much better food court than most convention centers offer.  The Flats location is much more isolated; there are no hotels nearby (Marriott is the closest?) and it's only served by the Waterfront Line for transit.

I clicked the link, and am somewhat disappointed though there is only one rendering.  It's great to have competition between what is appears to be, again, three competing sites. Wolstein definitely would have enough land if the Port sold the land to him.  However, this site further blocks access to the waterfront for pedestrians, and puts another big box directly on the lakefront.  The one big orange box we have on the lakefront is enough already.  I guess a mixed-use neighborhood could be designed around and in between the convention center and Browns Stadium, but it would be a hell of a lot easier without a convention center in the way.  If the flats site is chosen, we will have a VERY different looking lakefront than the one planned, which included city residents in the discussion at that.  However, that is one of the drawbacks of being a planner; planners are powerless when it comes to seeing plans stay on track.

 

The current site, in my opinion, is still superior. 

 

"Everybody talks about activating the urban core," Wolstein said. "I'm not sure the back-ass of Tower City is the center of the urban core."

 

That's great!!  I love it!!

At least in San Diego, the weather is nice enough to use outdoor spaces as patios and connectors between the various spaces in the convention center.  Here in Cleveland, not so much.  Also, I was thinking of the convention center in New Orleans which is riverfront but fails to capitalize on that location in any way - it would suck to see that kind of development on the port site.

Well, lets delay the site selection another 6 months...ARG!

I think it is way too late in the process to throw in another site.  And the Flats site still perpetuates the main reason I don't like the TC site- it is using a massive public facility to prop up one company's private investment instead of all of Downtown.

^I agree %100.  We need the convention center/ medical mart project, but not at the expense of what was a well planned neighborhood which Cleveland needs.  I'm hoping that he's able to fully build it out instead of shrinking it (HOPING is the key word).

 

The San Diego site is looked at as a planning failure by most, as it effectively blocks off a large portion of their waterfront to pedestrians.  We've had enough of that here.  The whole point of the Lakefront Plan was to open it up to pedestrian access.  Putting another big box on the lake does nothing for that. 

 

 

I think it is way too late in the process to throw in another site. And the Flats site still perpetuates the main reason I don't like the TC site- it is using a massive public facility to prop up one company's private investment instead of all of Downtown.

 

I totally, 100% agree. This is ridiculous. Just PICK A F**KING SITE, ALREADY!!!

I think it is way too late in the process to throw in another site.  And the Flats site still perpetuates the main reason I don't like the TC site- it is using a massive public facility to prop up one company's private investment instead of all of Downtown.

 

 

 

I totally, 100% agree. This is ridiculous. Just PICK A F**KING SITE, ALREADY!!!

 

I'm with you, dammit!!

Lakefront development is fragile at this point and should be reserved for public use and access ie park/green space. I am still convinced the Mall Site will provide further catalyst for downtown development than any other site and will do the most good for the majority of downtown businesses. 

I like the idea.  I like Wolstein as well and feels he REALLY wants this city to succeed and move forward.  I think this idea is great and there should be more minor draws for people around that area, like a water taxi to whiskey island during summer months  If people come in from out of town for this convention and they stay down there, let them enjoy our biggest resource, the water!

I'm not sure if I like this new site better than TC or not. I'd rather have it at the current site, but considering no one with any money is pushing for that...

 

"Our first obligation is not to a development," he said. "Our first obligation is to make sure the public gets the value of their tax dollars."

With that in mind how about pushing for the one site that is already owned by the public?

 

I view this move by Wolstein just as an attempt to get his FEB project moving again... at a reduced size nonetheless.  It's still an argument between TC and the current site in my opinion... but if MMP likes it then we could be in for a long, frustrating few months.  Like most frustrated Clevelanders I just want them to build the thing already.

 

As for Wolstein's East Bank project I'm hoping that he'll pick the project back up without size reductions sometime in 2010 after the markets have settled.  I don't think we can afford to let that project be reduced in size and scope.  As we've discussed before that project is kind of an all or nothing deal.

To quote Charlie Brown " Good Grief !!!!"

 

Will the drama ever end?

 

I view this move by Wolstein just as an attempt to get his FEB project moving again... at a reduced size nonetheless. It's still an argument between TC and the current site in my opinion... but if MMP likes it then we could be in for a long, frustrating few months. Like most frustrated Clevelanders I just want them to build the thing already.

 

As for Wolstein's East Bank project I'm hoping that he'll pick the project back up without size reductions sometime in 2010 after the markets have settled. I don't think we can afford to let that project be reduced in size and scope. As we've discussed before that project is kind of an all or nothing deal.

 

I agree.  I actually look at this as a step back for the flats project, not to mention we still have the problem of the vacant existing center.  FWIW I know someone who was actually at that meeting in Chicago.  This was not remotely discussed.  But I think if Wolstein can head to Chicago next week and show MMPI that this is a significantly cheaper alternative... we're all in line for a big headache.

I don't know how I feel about the new site suggestion as of yet, but if Tower City ends up being the site, there is apparently a NY-based film company that wants to move into the existing convention center (per Cimperman).  I'm skeptical of that, however, as I feel that a lot more things need to fall into place correctly for that to happen.

"I'm not sure the back-ass of Tower City is the center of the urban core."  ~ Quote of the month.

 

I see more connectibility issues with this site and believe it is nothing more than a ploy to get his FEB project moving at a lower cost.  Also, with the convention center being right there, he can likely ask for more money for any housing projects, hotels, etc. 

 

While I know the article said he would do a mini-FEB, would the county be picking up any of his tab? 

 

Any reasons why it took him so long to pitch this idea?  I mean, we have not been waiting on a site selection for too long or anything.

 

Any reasons why it took him so long to pitch this idea?  I mean, we have not been waiting on a site selection for too long or anything.

 

 

I emailed his FEB team this morning and asked them that very question.  I told him that the citizens of Cleveland may not look favorably upon his decision to enter the site competition this late in the game if it leads to further delays.  I also mentioned that I didn't think he had Cleveland's best interests at heart.  Sure it's cheaper, but it's so isolated out there by the lake that it would have no advantage over other conventions centers.  I mean, who wants to be right by the lake in December thru March?!?!  We'll see what they have to say.

Anyone else starting to think the IX Center isn't so bad after all?

 

At least it doesn't block the waterfront.

 

:wtf:

Since when have the flats been the center of the urban core?  Few supporting amenities for a possible convention center exist down there.  I'm assuming that the more a convention center is coupled with existing amenities (shops, restaurants, hotels, public square and the health line, direct rail access to the city's airport) the more likely it is to succeed.

Anyone else starting to think the IX Center isn't so bad after all?

 

At least it doesn't block the waterfront.

 

:wtf:

 

Nooooooooooooooooooooooo...

I'm just about done with Wolstein as having any credibility. I am still skeptical as to his decision to hold up on the FEB project, and the real reason behind it. I think it has less to do with the economy and more to do with his desire to soak every drop of other monies into the project before he commits his. His supposed motivation behind the flats was that it was his fathers dream to me make it happen, a dream he wanted to see realized. I think this latest effort is just to get someone elses money involved. Unfortunately in a city that is so starved for any kind of development, we will have to listen and hope that the delay will not jeopardise multiple projects.

I'm just about done with Wolstein as having any credibility. I am still skeptical as to his decision to hold up on the FEB project, and the real reason behind it. I think it has less to do with the economy and more to do with his desire to soak every drop of other monies into the project before he commits his. His supposed motivation behind the flats was that it was his fathers dream to me make it happen, a dream he wanted to see realized. I think this latest effort is just to get someone elses money involved. Unfortunately in a city that is so starved for any kind of development, we will have to listen and hope that the delay will not jeopardise multiple projects.

 

Wolstein would have gladly moved forward if funding hadn't dried up.  I know this for a fact.  He was actually very near having funding in place (through multiple lenders), when lenders started renegging on their agreements asking for sometimes double or triple the upfront money originally required, and the whole thing unravled very quickly.  I think at this point he is just desparately trying to find a way to get it going any way he can... not looking to specifically soak every drop of other peoples monies.  If he could finance the original project traditionally right now... he would.

I don't doubt that the flats are part of the absolute core, since that's where the city came from originally.  I too like this site better than TC, but less than the mall.  That rendering could be a lot worse.  At least it has windows.  It justifies building a whole new set of amenities down there, but it does nothing for the rest of downtown-- all the bad of the TC plan, but with additional upside.  Those amenities should make nearby residential an easier sell.  There is enough room down there that even a CC doesn't have to block the lakefront.  I could get behind this.  If any sort of Scranton peninsula possibilities were in the mix, the TC plan would look a lot better than it does. 

I respectfully disagree with the Wolstein bashing.  Sure the guy wants to turn a profit, but he is so rich he could live anywhere.  The guy wants to help our city.  He recognizes the unique geography of the cuyahoga river and wants to make the geography livable.  I cant say I disagree with him exploring other options to make his project go forward...such as offering his land for the convention center.  Wherever the center lands, it will help the city.  Its not like people wont be going up to the gateway area to eat and watch games because the MM is in the flats.  With the rapid going right down there, I dont think its such a terrible idea.

 

Surf-Look at the rendering, it doesnt really block alot of the waterfront, just an inlet of  the port...that whole area where the river and lake meet can still be green/food/whatever.

I don't question Wolstien's love for Cleveland or his desire to see his fathers dream realized, but I am skeptical of the timing of this and its possibility to threaten and further complicate the progress that is being made with the MedMart/Convo Ctr.

Can anyone tell from the limited renderings if this would affect any land set aside for his stalled East Bank project?  If this site eliminates the opportunity to phase in the rest of his project, I'm completely against it.

 

But hey, I do like it as an alternative to TC.  I guess I see it as an opportunity for people to visit our city at conventions and for the Med Mart, see our waterfront, Browns Stadium and hopefully a developed East Bank and quell the nasty rumors about Cleveland being dirty, dangerous and a place that might as well sink into the lake.  If we can show the world first hand what a great city we have, maybe we can start turning this negative image around.  I really think Wolstein can do that.

I don't doubt that the flats are part of the absolute core, since that's where the city came from originally. I too like this site better than TC, but less than the mall. That rendering could be a lot worse. At least it has windows. It justifies building a whole new set of amenities down there, but it does nothing for the rest of downtown-- all the bad of the TC plan, but with additional upside. Those amenities should make nearby residential an easier sell. There is enough room down there that even a CC doesn't have to block the lakefront. I could get behind this.

 

Yeah, I agree. But my favorite site is still the current site by far, just for the centrality of the location, which I think is key. I don't know how MMPI would seriously consider this site because it pushes it even FURTHER away from the Cleveland Clinic, which I know was a major concern for them early on. And in my opinion, even though it's a bit better than TC, it doesn't justify any delays this kink could possibly throw into the mix because it still hasn't swayed me into believing that it's better than the current site.

They can put it in the middle of the lake for all I care.  Just get it done.

I wonder how much of the money for the TC proposal is land aquisition costs.  MMPI may meet with Wolstien just to leverage a better deal from FC.

In Crains:

http://www.crainscleveland.com/article/20090122/FREE/901229961

Cuyahoga County commissioners near convention center/medical mart decision

 

By JAY MILLER

COPYRIGHT 2009 CRAIN'S CLEVELAND BUSINESS

11:28 am, January 22, 2009

 

Cuyahoga County commissioners hope to settle on a site for the long-planned convention center and medical merchandise mart by Thursday afternoon, despite a last-minute effort by developer Scott Wolstein to have a site in the Flats, alongside his stalled mixed-use East Bank development, considered for the trade show complex.

 

“I expect we will have a site and a development agreement (signed) by the end of the day,” commissioner Tim Hagan told Crain’s Cleveland Business at Thursday morning’s regular weekly commissioners’ meeting.

 

The commissioners are meeting Thursday afternoon with executives of Merchandise Mart Properties Inc. of Chicago, the developer chosen for the complex, to review the company’s site analysis. The commissioners have scheduled a 2 p.m. press conference to discuss what comes next.

 

 

 

WHOHOO!!!  :drunk: :clap: :drunk: :clap:

Ohhhh, I'm anxious. LOL.

Ohhhh, I'm anxious. LOL.

 

me too

^So am I!! But dammit, I'm happy that we can get this thing moving along, either way it goes.  I'm still hoping for the mall site though.

this oughta be good...

as a person who goes to conventions, those saying that its better in tower city are entitled to their opinion, but I feel you are wrong.

 

Walking a few blocks and potentially increasing street activity is best for a site already owned by the city.

 

This is just BS.

My prediction: It will be Tower City. The reason? The existing convention center has no outspoken constituency benefitting from it nor is anyone with influence pushing for it. We don't do things in the city simply because they might make sense, but because someone with political influence will benefit. Sometimes sensibilities and political influence interconnect. Sometimes they don't. But someone with power must always benefit for something to happen.

The last part of this makes me doubt there will be a true site selection today. 

 

Cuyahoga commissioners get briefed on convention center sites; is an agreement near?

Posted by Joe Guillen January 22, 2009 12:30PM

 

http://blog.cleveland.com/metro/2009/01/cuyahoga_commissioners_get_bri.html

 

CLEVELAND - The closed-door meeting between Cuyahoga County officials and their private-partner in the medical mart/convention project began shortly after noon today amid speculation that some kind of concrete agreement will be reached between the two today.

 

Commissioner Tim Hagan said, through an aide, that he was hopeful a site for the project will be selected and a development agreement signed...

 

 

Very true, KLP.  I hate to say it, but Cleveland is politically corrupt and controlled by the "old boys club".  Forest City has done incredible damage.  It's a part of the reason for the continual 'brain drain" ... young people with fresh ideas are ignored by the Ratners and their interests.

 

Anyway, the County HASTILY scheduled the press conference tomorrow for 1 reason:  nip this in the bud & SQUASH this Flats idea.

Ive always thought, or just had a feeling that Hagan just does not like Forest City.  Remember the strong arming FC put on the county to put the admin building at Higbees.  Then when the county chose the Ameritrust site, FC Tthrew a fit and pulled out of the CC?

My feeling is that Hagan may not be pro-mall site, but he could be anti TC site.

 

HOPEFULLY we will know soon

This is a more general comment on the decision process, but I do not believe ANY of the discussions that have been held on this, by anyone, can legally be kept secret under Ohio's Open Meetings Act.  When I get a chance, I will look into it further.