Other than trying to steer the project to one of his biggest campaign contributors, can you speculate on a reason that the Mayor is working against the mall site?

 

I can't nor is there concrete evidence that he is personally steering it to the FC site.  If i've missed that somewhere please show me.

 

Scroll up.  He went to Chicago himself, primarily to pimp the FC site.  He's been pushing it hard publicly since just before the "final" decision was made.

I'd like you to show me where specifically he said he wants the FC site.

He's a public official and will get his fair amount of critics, so I'm not being an apologist, but the personal attacks are not necessary.

 

What did you interpret to be a personal attack??

Cleveland Mayor Frank Jackson lukewarm on proposed site for a medical mart

Posted by jmorona January 26, 2009 09:53AM

 

CLEVELAND — Mayor Frank Jackson has concerns about the city-owned site chosen for a new medical mart and convention center project.

 

This morning, Jackson called all City Council members to his office to share his reservations about the site, which includes the city's existing convention center...

 

http://www.cleveland.com/news/index.ssf/2009/01/cleveland_mayor_shares_concern.html

 

---

 

Mayor Jackson made his case to the city council, they still voted unanimously to back the Mall site.  Mayor Jackson even tried a last ditch effort during the meeting to stop it. 

The Cuyahoga County commissioners are on board, city council is on board, the only one trying to hold up the process is Mayor Jackson.  Why?

 

On the whole, I like Mayor Jackson.  But this episode has shown that when it comes to the well being of the community vs. the well being of FCE, Forest City wins.

 

Jackson and Cimperman BOTH came out publicly in favor of the TC long ago. It is public record. Do your own home work. Know your subject.

Other than trying to steer the project to one of his biggest campaign contributors, can you speculate on a reason that the Mayor is working against the mall site?

 

I can't nor is there concrete evidence that he is personally steering it to the FC site.  If i've missed that somewhere please show me.

 

Scroll up.  He went to Chicago himself, primarily to pimp the FC site.  He's been pushing it hard publicly since just before the "final" decision was made.

I'd like you to show me where specifically he said he wants the FC site.

 

Something about a search function. 

 

His statements weren't quite so naked as I've laid them out; what he said was he thought MMPI was making a big mistake to dismiss the (pro-FC) CofC report so easily.  He highlighted all the time spent on it, a seemingly irrelevant and unhelpful detail at that point.  I don't think he's that stupid.  Given the timing of his leap into the spotlight, right when it was becoming apparent that FC would lose, I'm reading between the lines. 

The Cuyahoga County commissioners are on board, city council is on board, the only one trying to hold up the process is Mayor Jackson. Why?

 

On the whole, I like Mayor Jackson. But this episode has shown that when it comes to the well being of the community vs. the well being of FCE, Forest City wins.

 

I personally think his concerns are valid ones. The foundation should be tested before a final decision is made, I think. If it turns out to be solid and he and FCE are still making a federal case out of it, then I agree there's a major problem.

Jackson and Cimperman BOTH came out publicly in favor of the TC long ago. It is public record. Do your own home work. Know your subject.

ummmmm.  Isn't that why I said, "if i missed this show me"?

 

 

Oh and dont forget this one from Jacksons trip to Chicago:

 

http://blog.cleveland.com/metro/2009/01/merchandise_mart_properties_in.html

 

The mayor's frustration at the slow pace reached a tipping point last week after commissioners extended their deadline for MMPI to choose a location from Jan. 15 to mid-February.

 

Another of Jackson's problems is a perception that MMPI was zeroing in on the current convention center site and disregarding the business leaders' study.

 

Falanga said MMPI is not favoring a site. "If we were being steered to the mall site, this decision would've been made long ago," he said.

 

 

And then after MMPI made a decision Jackson was complaining that was too sudden?

 

I interpret this as him making sure they look at the foundation to make sure it can be reused and that they assume the cost of overruns.

Getting off topic a bit, but I would love to hear where Jackson stands and what his plans are with regard to public safety and development.  I've been giving him the "he's new" excuse for several years now and it no longer works.  At this point I need to see something. 

 

I guess it's possible he's just upset about MMPI's decision because he had worked out that deal with the film people to use the old CC.  So now he has to tell them we have something better to go there, but they'll love this wonderful structure out on 55th.

His statements weren't quite so naked as I've laid them out; what he said was he thought MMPI was making a big mistake to dismiss the (pro-FC) CofC report so easily.  He highlighted all the time spent on it, a seemingly irrelevant and unhelpful detail at that point.  I don't think he's that stupid.  Given the timing of his leap into the spotlight, right when it was becoming apparent that FC would lose, I'm reading between the lines.  

 

Thats ultimately what I think looks the most fishy is his timing in regard to inaction and being active. 

Unfortunately, there is usually more to the story.  I work for a company that plays the political game and I see all the big players in our office regularly.

 

You can never tell what the politicians motives are, but you cannot ignore the facts; The Ratner Family contributed to the campaigns of Jackson and Cimperman, so keep that in the back of your head when listening to these their arguments.

If this community leadership here were an NFL team, it would be time to "blow it up" and start over with new blood. 

 

haha...Browns much?

Welcome SIM

In a resolution passed unanimously Monday night, the council declared the downtown mall as the "most advantageous" location for the $425 million proposal.

 

Good to see some solidarity on this issue from council.

 

If I had to speculate (and that's all anybody can do other than those that heard this conversation), Jackson could have been opposed to the resolution for purposes other than lobbying for FCE.  For instance, such a resolution could be used to minimize the City's bargaining power on the property acquisition negotiations.  Or.... they could have been talking about a whole other matter.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't MMPI's expert determine that the foundations for the existing convention center were in fact stable for new construction loads?  I'm not even sure why Osborn is being commissioned for this.  What could MMPI possibly have to gain from not diong their due diligence in this investigation?  If they were incorrect they would be responsible for cost overruns.  This whole situation just makes me ill and wonder how to start a campaign to run for mayor.  This shite has to stop.

^ I agree. I'll vote for you.

I don't know if anybody saw or remembers this but a couple of years ago, one of the news stations aired an interview with Mayor Jackson.  One of the questions asked in the interview was about the new convention center and where it will go. 

 

His response to the question was, "wherever MMPI wants it to go."

 

I find it interesting that he's one of the main people holding up the process.

^ I agree. I'll vote for you.

 

Me too.  Let's do this thing.

        http://blog.cleveland.com/metro/2009/03/an_engineering_firm_hired_by.html     

 

Osborn :)

Sound promising to me, but why does the PD keep saying this will revived the local economy, this will not revive the economy but a nother step in the right direction to IMPROVE, STRENGTHEN AND DIVERSIFY our economy.   

---

 

Engineer report likely to OK downtown Mall site for new convention center on Thursday

Posted by Joe Guillen

March 03, 2009 16:18PM

 

 

    An engineering firm hired by Cuyahoga County is likely to confirm on Thursday that the Cleveland Convention Center's underground foundation can support construction of a new center that is to be paired with a proposed medical mart downtown.

 

County officials familiar with preliminary results of Osborn Engineering's study expect the final report will back up an earlier conclusion that a new center can indeed be built on the existing foundation, avoiding the high cost of having to demolish and replace it...

 

more at: http://www.cleveland.com/medicalmart

I figure MMPI studies FCE proposal 7 to 10 days; concludes it's BS and we move forward.

I don't even give them that long.  I'm more concerned FCE tries to get litigious about this.

I don't even give them that long.  I'm more concerned FCE tries to get litigious about this.

OK.  They love a good lawsuit

I don't even give them that long.  I'm more concerned FCE tries to get litigious about this.

 

I can't imagine the basis. Who do you think they will use, Squires,Sanders and Dempsey? or Jones Day? Dewey, Screwem and Howe?

I don't even give them that long.  I'm more concerned FCE tries to get litigious about this.

 

Which is why MMPI shouldn't just brush them off. I think MMPI should hear them out and spare themselves any accusations of not giving them their due time .. and possible courtroom delays.

I don't even give them that long. I'm more concerned FCE tries to get litigious about this.

 

I can't imagine the basis. Who do you think they will use, Squires,Sanders and Dempsey? or Jones Day? Dewey, Screwem and Howe?

 

I don't want to give them any ideas.  There may have some potential bases.  Most of these would probably be defeated by sovereign immunity, because their cause of action would be against the county.  In the end the government can basically do what it wants where it wants. 

MMPI: Convention Center Foundation Strong enough for Medical Mart

 

CLEVELAND -- The foundation underneath the Cleveland Convention Center is solid enough to support the hoped-for Medical Mart project.

 

MMPI, the project's planners, prefer the Convention Center site.

 

Their own engineering studies concluded the foundation was sound enough to build on. They claim that could save millions in construction costs and make the site cheaper than a Tower City location.

 

County Commissioners hired Osborn Engineering to review the MMPI study. They did that to address concerns raised by Mayor Frank Jackson.

 

Osborn will announce its findings after Thursday's commission meeting.

 

But two sources tell Channel 3's Tom Beres the report will confirm the foundation is sturdy enough to build on.

 

MMPI is expressing impatience with Cleveland's often slow and cumbersome political process. It's concerned other cities may get a similar project off the ground first.

 

Commissioners will not make a final "official" choice of the Convention Center site until after March 10.

 

That's when Forest City takes its revised proposal to put the project behind Tower City to MMPI's brain trust in Chicago.

 

Forest City claims the project can be $26 million cheaper at its site than at the Convention Center location.

 

MMPI has called Forest City's proposal undoable and unrealistic.

 

© 2009 WKYC-TV

 

It makes no difference if TC is a few million cheaper. It is a poor choice. Location. Location. Location.

Hold the decision until 12 March, announce the mall site as the FINAL decision, like we all want to see, and nobody has to buy me a birthday present!

I don't even give them that long.  I'm more concerned FCE tries to get litigious about this.

OK.  They love a good lawsuit

 

Hopefully, if it comes to that, their lawyers would explain to them the term "frivolous".  I can't even begin to imagine what the cause of action would be.

 

The Osborne finding is no suprise.  Like the earlier post said, MMPI would not risk the possible construction cost overruns if their study of the foundation was not solid as rock.... no pun intended ;)

Hopefully, if it comes to that, their lawyers would explain to them the term "frivolous".  I can't even begin to imagine what the cause of action would be.

 

If it does come to that, it will be such an obvious case of crying over spilled milk that it's not even funny. In my opinion, as long as FCE is given a chance to present their case fully, there should be no reason for them to sue .. and if they do, it'll be such a childish, spoiled brat move on their part.

 

Any lawsuit that they would present would only serve to hold up the process, which would be horrible for Cleveland. This project doesn't need any more delays.

FCE has presented their case up down left and right, several times over.  They should focus on developing Scranton peninsula.  Leave MM/CC to the professionals, the ones who said they want it at the mall.  Considering how funny the whole process has looked so far, and all of FCE's apparent machinations, I wouldn't want this in court if I were them.

Hopefully, if it comes to that, their lawyers would explain to them the term "frivolous". I can't even begin to imagine what the cause of action would be.

 

If it does come to that, it will be such an obvious case of crying over spilled milk that it's not even funny. In my opinion, as long as FCE is given a chance to present their case fully, there should be no reason for them to sue .. and if they do, it'll be such a childish, spoiled brat move on their part.

 

Any lawsuit that they would present would only serve to hold up the process, which would be horrible for Cleveland. This project doesn't need any more delays.

 

They would need to obtain a preliminary injunction to stall the project and, to do that, they would have to show a "high likelihood" of success on the merits.  Good luck FCE.  The simple filing of a lawsuit would not be enough to stop the shovels.  I really doubt that FCE is that stupid.  More likely, they would lure some disgruntled County resident who only cares about the bottom line ($$$) to file a taxpayer action.

Isn't it kind of the same as Bob and Betty Smith deciding to buy one house vs. another.  So, the person whose house was not purchased has a right to sue Bob and Betty?

Or is there something else?

You'd think that FCE would turn to another strategy soon. Casino at Tower City?

Hts is right, an injunction seems very unlikely. 

 

Hypothetically... Bob and Betty aren't the government.  Any government decision made in a secret meeting is void.  This doesn't apply to land deals, so it's borderline frivolous to use it here.  Though it could be said that this is more than a land deal.  I don't know how that would go.  They could claim that a fraud of some sort is being perpetrated on the county, but standing could be tricky, hence the possible "taxpayer action."  That would also keep FCE's questionable role out of the spotlight. 

 

Their biggest problem is they have nothing on MMPI.  MMPI does equal Bob and Betty, and they can live where they want.  That leaves the city or county as targets, who are both generally immune to lawsuits.  In a non-governmental situation FCE could sue for business interference.  It's illegal to mess up someone else's deal.  But long story short, they have nothing there either, and it would be useless against the mall's owner anyway.

You'd think that FCE would turn to another strategy soon. Casino at Tower City?

 

They need to sell the mall portion to or partner with a company like simon to manage it.  Thats part of the problem, the mall is operating as an "independent" with little power.  Partnering with Simon or Macerich would help the mall tremendously.

 

It has to be more then just a mall it has to be thee mall!  Add some housing, ad a hip hotel. That would help immediately.  The housing doesn't have to be luxury but mid level with upper or corner luxury units.  Add a Palamor, Helix Rosewood or Westin hotel and tha could help revive your "ailing" mall.

You'd think that FCE would turn to another strategy soon. Casino at Tower City?

 

They need to sell the mall portion to or partner with a company like simon to manage it. Thats part of the problem, the mall is operating as an "independent" with little power. Partnering with Simon or Macerich would help the mall tremendously.

 

It has to be more then just a mall it has to be thee mall! Add some housing, ad a hip hotel. That would help immediately. The housing doesn't have to be luxury but mid level with upper or corner luxury units. Add a Palamor, Helix Rosewood or Westin hotel and tha could help revive your "ailing" mall.

 

That's the ticket.

It's illegal to mess up someone else's deal.

 

There has to be a "deal" (contract) first before interference can be claimed.

 

If the land behind TC is worth as much as FCE claims it to be and given this "connectivity" argument they keep making, it should not be hard at all for them to find an alternative, non-CC use.

 

On another note, does anyone know how high the ceilings are at the IX center.  Seems well above 30 feet.  I see that the exhibit halls are well over 600,000 sq ft.  I am just wondering whether the big shows like the international auto show will stay at the IX center.  I was out there this past weekend and it did not seem like such a show could have fit comfortably in 300,000 sq. ft. of space as is planned for the downtown CC.

It's illegal to mess up someone else's deal. 

 

There has to be a "deal" (contract) first before interference can be claimed.

 

If the land behind TC is worth as much as FCE claims it to be and given this "connectivity" argument they keep making, it should not be hard at all for them to find an alternative, non-CC use.

 

On another note, does anyone know how high the ceilings are at the IX center.  Seems well above 30 feet.  I see that the exhibit halls are well over 600,000 sq ft.  I am just wondering whether the big shows like the international auto show will stay at the IX center.  I was out there this past weekend and it did not seem like such a show could have fit comfortably in 300,000 sq. ft. of space as is planned for the downtown CC.

 

Thats what I've said from jump we need at least 500k to be competitive.  I feel having a functioning center downtown that's operating and has direct spinoff, is most like the trade-off for starting with such a small space.  Thank goodness there is space to expand north.

It has to be more then just a mall it has to be thee mall!

 

Dost thou indicate ye olde Renaissance Faire?

It's illegal to mess up someone else's deal. 

There has to be a "deal" (contract) first before interference can be claimed.

 

True.  But deal is a relative term.  That's what I meant by long story short they have nothing.  You don't need a written contract for interference, or even a formal agreement.  I know this because I got someone big bucks on an interference theory with none of that.  Much stronger case though, than for FCE here.  As they say, it has a lot to do with the judge's breakfast that morning, i.e. the law can be very random.

 

All that said, I don't think FCE could accomplish anything on this through litigation.  And their PR would suffer for trying it.

It has to be more then just a mall it has to be thee mall! 

 

Dost thou indicate ye olde Renaissance Faire?

 

Lawd!  Friar X is at it again!

whew. hallelujah. the foundation is fine.

 

now any of the other parties who crab about the mall site are just obstructionists.

 

break out the dignitaries and the golden shovels by the end of march.

 

let's do this. leeerrrooyyy jennnkinnns!  :laugh:

 

whew. hallelujah. the foundation is fine.

 

now any of the other parties who crab about the mall site are just obstructionists.

 

break out the dignitaries and the golden shovels by the end of march.

 

let's do this. leeerrrooyyy jennnkinnns!  :laugh:

 

 

See this is what I'm afraid of.  FCE using "preservationist" to throw a wrench in the process.

Question...Does FCE's estimate include any infrastructure work that would most likely come up due to the fact that most of the back end of TC is built on a platform. I remember that was the issue when the Avenue at TC was built. Will there not be infrastructure problems in the future which would most likely add to the costs?

There has not been a single architectural drawing of the work to be done. How can there be a complaint? I am sure it will be handled sensitively due to the historic nature of the site. I do not understand this moaning about law suits and preservationists without the slightest provocation. 

Question...Does FCE's estimate include any infrastructure work that would most likely come up due to the fact that most of the back end of TC is built on a platform. I remember that was the issue when the Avenue at TC was built. Will there not be infrastructure problems in the future which would most likely add to the costs?

 

Tons. Let me reiterate. MMPI is not stupid. They will have very competent people look at whatever FCE proposes, after all MMPI is responsible for cost over runs.

Forest City idea for convention center / med mart would straighten part of Cuyahoga River

Posted by Steven Litt / Plain Dealer Architecture Critic

March 04, 2009 16:52PM

 

The Cuyahoga River, known for its crooked contours, would be a little bit straighter if a convention center and medical mart are built behind Tower City Center.

 

The latest proposal by Forest City Enterprises to locate a new Cleveland convention center and medical mart behind the company's Tower City development would straighten a section of the riverbank to make it parallel to Huron Road...

 

 

http://blog.cleveland.com/architecture/2009/03/forest_city_proposal_for_conve.html