The city is unable to maintain or operate the current Convention Center without substantive help from the County as it is( appox 6Million/yr). The City should receive a fair price for transferring ownership to the county. Currently it's value as a convention center is zip. What is the alarm in switching it from city to county ownership?? The City will receive money for the sale and continuing revenue. It currently costs the City over 2 Million/ yr in addition to the 6 from the County. If you now understand Jackson's being wary about the site, please enlighten the masses.

Not questioning the role of the county in helping to maintain the property or that it is in many ways currently a fiscal liability for the city. But while its value as a convention center may indeed be zip, it is nonetheless a gigantic historic structure over a huge parcel of land in a strategically central and distinct part of downtown. Moreover, while the med mart/convention center is undoubtedly the easiest way to reactivate the center at present, it doesn't mean the building could not be a revenue generator in other ways, although granted, this would require a lot of foresight and resources the city might lack. Finally, the opportunity cost of not only foregoing potential future uses but perhaps more importantly SITE CONTROL to a parcel adjacent to City Hall seems to justify some compensation to the city. Or barring that, the county should at least do what MTS suggested above and enter into a long-term agreement to maintain the historic integrity of the building and the Mall Plan. Just my opinion.

I have seen no indication that historic integrity will not be maintained. Any plans or deviation would, in fact, be subject to extensive review by the appropriate governing bodies, of which there are many. I am sure it will be addressed in contract unless the attorneys are totally incompetent. Did I just kill my own point??

My question to people who say the city shouldn't give the current site away too cheaply is, What do you think is a fair number?  After that's answered I'd say divide that by the 2 million a year the city would save by not owning the center and figure out how many years of inactivity pays that off.  Also factor in the cost of any rehab that would be required to change the center into something that would actually turn a profit.

Is it just me, or is the announcement of the casino coming at the perfect time for the MM/CC?  MM/CC goes to the current site, FCE gets casino at Higbee's (perhaps allowing them to build a hotel on the back end of TC).  Finish Flats East Bank with a neighborhood (and perhaps an aquarium) and we are gold!!!

Is it just me, or is the announcement of the casino coming at the perfect time for the MM/CC? MM/CC goes to the current site, FCE gets casino at Higbee's (perhaps allowing them to build a hotel on the back end of TC). Finish Flats East Bank with a neighborhood (and perhaps an aquarium) and we are gold!!!

 

Yes!  Let's all have a cigar.

Casino? I didn't know Forest City Enterprises was an Indian tribe claiming old territory...

well the Ratners are part of a certain ethnic tribe...just sayin

I believe that casinos should be geographically isolated( crime ,safety, control) and not in neighborhoods. Scranton Peninsula would be perfect, but off subject. 

I believe that casinos should be geographically isolated and not in neighborhoods. Scranton Peninsula would be perfect, but off subject. 

 

Oh lawd, mark this moment, we agree on something.

well the Ratners are part of a certain ethnic tribe...just sayin

 

Italians and Jews have always dominated the casino scene.

It looks like our discussion of a fair value for the center continues to be timely ...

 

Medical mart deal will be done this month, officials say

Joe Guillen, Plain Dealer Reporter

March 6, 2009

 

A deal to sell the Cleveland Convention Center to Cuyahoga County for the medical mart project should be completed by the end of the month, officials said on Friday.

 

Cleveland Mayor Frank Jackson and County Commissioner Tim Hagan met for about 45 minutes at City Hall in the afternoon to open negotiations between the two sides ...

 

... For more information, please visit http://blog.cleveland.com/metro/2009/03/medical_mart_deal_will_be_done.html

 

The Convention Center activity(0) is a direct and deliberate decision by the City to let it deteriorate in favor of Park's IX deal. There must be a no complete clause or a wink and a nod.

What is a "no complete clause"?  Did you mean "non-compete"?

Use your best judgment and call it what you like. I am no/non lawyer.

That's an interesting angle.  Cleveland has (owns?) two convention centers.  Has there been any interest in having shows downtown, has the city steered everything to the IX center?  Or is that simply where the demand has been?  Who benefits, in either case?

 

And what hasn't gotten much talk so far:  what becomes of the IX center now?  I was just there; it looks practically new.

New paint. It was a WW2 tank plant. Leased to Park Corp. If they open downtown B4 a given date the City must pay a penalty 2 Park. I think that date is 2013, but am not positive but you can bet some lawyer knows.

New paint. It was a WW2 tank plant. Leased to Park Corp. If they open downtown B4 a given date the City must pay a penalty 2 Park.

 

What given date?  Is it a factor here?

Even though some of the shows at the IX will not fit downtown? 

 

Is it correct that the current plan and cost estaimate does not include any expansion of the current space downtown..?

(Not in line with the 2 options that were floated for expanding)

Even though some of the shows at the IX will not fit downtown? 

 

Is it correct that the current plan and cost estaimate does not include any expansion of the current space downtown..?

(Not in line with the 2 options that were floated for expanding)

 

I believe that is correct but with Fed stimulus money becoming available, who knows what is on their minds? New AmTrac/ RTA Station? You would think MMPI has the political muscle to get a little.

New paint. It was a WW2 tank plant.

 

Actually, it was built as a B-17 bomber plant. After the war, they built tanks there.

 

I believe that is correct but with Fed stimulus money becoming available, who knows what is on their minds? New AmTrac/ RTA Station? You would think MMPI has the political muscle to get a little.

 

You're killing me today. It's Amtrak.

New paint. It was a WW2 tank plant.

 

Actually, it was built as a B-17 bomber plant. After the war, they built tanks there.

 

I believe that is correct but with Fed stimulus money becoming available, who knows what is on their minds? New AmTrac/ RTA Station? You would think MMPI has the political muscle to get a little.

 

You're killing me today. It's Amtrak.

 

^^^

Could the red line be connected to the CC from Tower City and then rejoin on its current path?

 

Just a crazy, speculative question.

Could the red line be connected to the CC from Tower City and then rejoin on its current path?

 

Just a crazy, speculative question.

 

You mean make the red line follow the same route as the WFL?  I don't think the equipment can make those turns.

I think it would be way too expensive and unnecessary.  If you're going to have that, just have a Case/Clinic/Trolley type shuttle every 10 minutes.

Yeah, but I wouldn't mind the north coast transportion center linking with the CC.

 

You know, because the most important thing is connectivity

connectivity,  ahgggggggg!

Yeah, but I wouldn't mind the north coast transportion center linking with the CC.

 

You know, because the most important thing is connectivity

 

I'm going to call my girlfriend at the clover grill and have her smack you, one good time!

Could the red line be connected to the CC from Tower City and then rejoin on its current path?

 

Just a crazy, speculative question.

 

No, but the whole rail system can be converted to a standard fleet of equipment that can operate on all lines. Won't happen for a while since RTA just rebuilt their 1980-build Blue/Green/Waterfront Line cars and are about to rebuild their 1984-build Red Line cars. Anyway, back to the CC...

 

You mean make the red line follow the same route as the WFL? I don't think the equipment can make those turns.

Could the red line be connected to the CC from Tower City and then rejoin on its current path?

 

Just a crazy, speculative question.

 

I thought that's what the WFL was for.  I can understand wanting it to be a one-seat trip though.  Doesn't seem like a huge deal.  It may even make our train system seem more robust to outsiders.

And it may make the WFL usable again.  Right now there is nothing on that line except the morning/afternoon rush from the Muny lot and for Browns games in the fall.  And I don;t think the rush is that great on it anyway.  Ideally this would be coupled with a redevoloped FEB.  Ahh, dreams.

http://blog.cleveland.com/metro/2009/03/the_height_of_the_ceiling.html

Convention center plan championed by Cuyahoga County would have some ceiling heights lower than industry standards

Posted by Joe Guillen

Which is it, "one spot" or the whole thing?  There are references to both.  Given that people are about 6 feet tall, 20 v. 30 doesn't seem like a major issue.

Boat Shows like to put up full masts,etc. FCE is grasping at straws. When you balance location,price,usability MMPI apparently feels the overall value is in the Mall.

Boat Shows like to put up full masts,etc. FCE is grasping at straws. When you balance location,price,usability MMPI apparently feels the overall value is in the Mall.

 

Or home shows with full house.  I wonder what the cost would be to build that extra 10 feet?  I'm sure MMPI, gave all a full cost analyst.

Which is it, "one spot" or the whole thing? There are references to both. Given that people are about 6 feet tall, 20 v. 30 doesn't seem like a major issue.

 

I read it as just the part directly under Lakeside Ave. would be 20 feet, the rest would be 30.

It is absolutely amazing to me to see our main newspaper publication be so upfront with the company they are supporting.  Can't wait for the FINAL DECISION ALREADY!!  DAMMIT.

Cimperman carrying Sam's water again. This could have been predicted and it was :)

I have been to a lot of different tradeshows/conventions, including medical ones. I've been to shows in other countries. What medical equipment can't squeeze into a tiny 20 foot space?

I have been to a lot of different tradeshows/conventions, including medical ones. I've been to shows in other countries. What medical equipment can't squeeze into a tiny 20 foot space?

 

The convention center is not just for the medical mart.  It will be our main convention facility.

Okay all, first open this link in a separate window http://www.televisiontunes.com/Benny_Hill_Show.html

 

With that in the background, commence reading the greatest, latest update from wonderful Forest City!  :bang:

 

Forest City cuts nearly $50 million from its medical mart and convention center proposal

http://blog.cleveland.com/architecture/2009/03/forest_city_enterprises_cuts_m.html

Posted by Steven Litt/Plain Dealer Architecture Critic

March 13, 2009 15:19PM

 

 

Forest City Enterprises today unveiled the most concise, elegant and economical version of its proposal to locate a new convention center and a medical mart behind its Tower City Center complex on the Cuyahoga riverfront.

 

The cost: $351 million -- down $47 million from their most recent previous version, unveiled last month.

 

At the same time, Forest City executives did their level best to demolish a competing proposal to locate the medical mart next to the downtown Mall, alongside a rebuilt version of the existing convention center below Malls B and C...

The music is a nice touch.

I have to question the price tag of Forest City's project.  $351 million seems cheap for moving a part of the river, along with building the needed infrastructure to allow trucks behind Tower City.  That's on top of building the actual convention center, and needed parking garage.  I just don't see it staying in that price range, but I'm no expert.

I have to question the price tag of Forest City's project.  $351 million seems cheap for moving a part of the river, along with building the needed infrastructure to allow trucks behind Tower City.  That's on top of building the actual convention center, and needed parking garage.  I just don't see it staying in that price range, but I'm no expert.

 

Yeah, but you have common sense.  Something the folks at FCE lack.

 

They can say "save, save, save" all they want.  Once construction starts, I can here "we didn't know or based on xyz its now determined that the cost will be 123".  This is an excersice in BS.

 

If FCE is allowed to build this, we'll end up with a substandard facility that will be worse than what we currently have and we'll be back at square one in less than 20 years.

No kidding.

 

I question why they weren't able to quote at this price from the start?? Now all of a sudden, they're magically able to bring it down more and more. I mean, I understand you wanna get the biggest bang for your buck, but this is ridiculous.

 

I'm getting such a bitter taste in my mouth over FCE. I think they're ruthless guys who won't take no for an answer. I respect the fight in them, but sooner or later, you keep fighting and you look like spoiled children who can't get what you want.

What I find sad and yet hysterical at the same time are FCE's attempts to show the "urban impact" that the Mall site would have. It's like they took the Powerpoint slides from MMPI, handed them to one of the interns who knows Sketchup and said "add some ugly bunkers and make the Mall look bad!!!".

 

Because of COURSE this would be approved!  :lol:

 

Then, they show us the glorious "urban impact" that their proposal would have... brace yourselves, folks:

 

 

If this is supposed to wow us, it's working - I'm rather wowed by the desperation I'm seeing  :roll:

Maybe they thought no one would notice. They stated they did not anticipate any problems and a timely permitting process with the Army Corp of Engineers, EPA, the law suits from environmentalists and other citizens protests. I look for FCE to surreptitiously fund some "citizens committee" law suit ala NYC. They are relentless.

 

See Litt's column today. MTC will post it properly.

I actually like those renderings compared to the Mall site ones we've seen so far.

 

Hmmm .. maybe TC isn't so bad after all .. :-D

I actually like those renderings compared to the Mall site ones we've seen so far.

 

Hmmm .. maybe TC isn't so bad after all .. :-D

 

I've liked TC better from the beginning, but I have to agree w/ Litt's premise: FCE simply got too friggin' full of themselves, and if they had disclosed this better and more detailed rendering from the beginning, instead of playing coy and acting as though they had MMPI in the bag, they'd probably be moving their tractors in place by now.

FCE will paint a picture and tell you ANYTHING you want to hear, then do what what they please. It is their history. It is the way they do things. It is but a means to an end.