While I am not a appraiser, if I were to guess, it would be approx 40M for ALL the properties involved. That is about the same as FCE was asking for their property, with a far less attractive location. That does not seem out of line to secure a city block in the heart of downtown. That would leave about 385M for construction. What will 385M build? I don't know, but I do know that MMPI is chewing up 300K a month with this nonsense.

 

I am surprised that nobody has brought this up and I know this is very controversial, but can't the city of Cleveland use eminent domain to acquire the St Clair properties?  I believe this tactic was used by Wolstein to acquire the last properties for FEB.

The city can use eminent domain as can Cuyahoga County. But that process doesn't mean the public entity will acquire the property for any less money than what the private property owner is asking for. And there is no guarantee the public entity will even get the property unless it can be shown that there is no reasonable alternative to the property acquisition and that the public is better served by the acquisition.

The city can use eminent domain as can Cuyahoga County. But that process doesn't mean the public entity will acquire the property for any less money than what the private property owner is asking for. And there is no guarantee the public entity will even get the property unless it can be shown that there is no reasonable alternative to the property acquisition and that the public is better served by the acquisition.

 

You do not understand eminent domain in the State of Ohio. It is not as simple as you make it sound nor as quick. Suggested reading would start with New Haven vs Kelo. then a review of the State of Ohio's strengthening of private property owners rights after that ruling. Rest assured L&R would fight it , hook, tooth and nail. I would imagine it would wind though the Courts in about 3 years with very questionable results. Re: How did it work out when Lakewood tried it a couple of years ago.

^but Kelo was a totally different precedent. Kelo was about taking of land and giving it to a private developer. In this case, the County is the landowner and the purpose is one that is widely regarded as a "public use". Of course ED cases take a while, but the Kelo legislative backlash would not affect this scenario because it is a completely different situation.

"about taking of land and giving it to a private developer." that would be MMPI. The Supreme Court ruling allowed States to to fine tune ED as the saw fit. The Ohio Legislator then acted to strengthen Individual Personal Property Rights well beyond the scope of the Kelo ruling. This is the type of case that would be litigated until one of the party's ran out of money. Their lawyers are getting chubbies  at the thought of it. Cha-Ching! Just how long do you think they will make that nance, oops dance last?

^don't ignore details just so you can fudge your argument.

No fudging. I'll leave the arguments for the lawyers and believe me, there will be plenty of arguing by lots of them. You can look forward to the MM being completed, under this scenario around 2020.

No fudging. I'll leave the arguments for the lawyers and believe me, there will be plenty of arguing by lots of them. You can look forward to the MM being completed, under this scenario around 2020.

 

I'm a lawyer, so you can leave the arguing to me. :)

Lord, why does this scenario of everything turning into a quagmire of crap always seem to happen with things in Cleveland? It seems like there are always groups of people just wanting to stand their positions no matter how remote and nonsensical just to derail something. It's almost too much. This has to get done. Period.

I'm NOT the one who who started this meandering about ED. I only pointed out that is a very hard, time consuming and expensive row to hoe with a very uncertain outcome. It is no cure for what is ailing this project. The only winners would be lawyers. IMO

I am a long time supporter of this project.

Lord, why does this scenario of everything turning into a quagmire of crap always seem to happen with things in Cleveland? It seems like there are always groups of people just wanting to stand their positions no matter how remote and nonsensical just to derail something. It's almost too much. This has to get done. Period.

Yeah, this only happens in Cleveland.  ::) ::)

^You better believe it!  Lol.

 

Just to skim over Hagan's comments regarding the MM, when he says it takes forever to get something done in this town... if he or the mayor actually showed some backbone after the site was chosen by MMPI, MONTHS could have been shaved off of this project.  Allowing every developer and their mama to come up with their own place where the MM would go- and actually giving them a CHANCE to argue their point (Wolstein, Gilbert, Forest City, PLJ, The PD's editorial staff) is what slowed down the process.  No one showed leadership, including Hagan, which makes him part of the reason why things move "so slow" in this town.

 

OK, I'm done ranting about that.

 

The use of ED would completely slow down this already slow process.  We've learned this lesson locally already- remember the FEB?  If eminent domain was not used, Wolstein could have shaved 6 months off the timeline of the project, and received financing BEFORE the credit market froze.  In real estate developments requiring land acquisition, you should ALWAYS expect to have a hold out property owner.  They have a ton of leverage when it comes to what their land is worth the closer you get to having all of the parcels acquired.  Regarding the MM- this particular property owner is sitting pretty.  We're talking about a parking garage downtown, right?  That's a money maker, and I wouldn't be surprised if the asking price for this parcel is part of the reason why the PA is now being pushed to the side. 

^You better believe it!  Lol.

 

Just to skim over Hagan's comments regarding the MM, when he says it takes forever to get something done in this town... if he or the mayor actually showed some backbone after the site was chosen by MMPI, MONTHS could have been shaved off of this project.  Allowing every developer and their mama to come up with their own place where the MM would go- and actually giving them a CHANCE to argue their point (Wolstein, Gilbert, Forest City, PLJ, The PD's editorial staff) is what slowed down the process.  No one showed leadership, including Hagan, which makes him part of the reason why things move "so slow" in this town.

 

OK, I'm done ranting about that.

 

The use of ED would completely slow down this already slow process.  We've learned this lesson locally already- remember the FEB?  If eminent domain was not used, Wolstein could have shaved 6 months off the timeline of the project, and received financing BEFORE the credit market froze.  In real estate developments requiring land acquisition, you should ALWAYS expect to have a hold out property owner.  They have a ton of leverage when it comes to what their land is worth the closer you get to having all of the parcels acquired.  Regarding the MM- this particular property owner is sitting pretty.  We're talking about a parking garage downtown, right?  That's a money maker, and I wouldn't be surprised if the asking price for this parcel is part of the reason why the PA is now being pushed to the side. 

 

this is a county project, I still do not understand why the mayor is being chastised for make sure the city is getting just do for the properties.

 

He had to do due diligence. 

While I am not a appraiser, if I were to guess, it would be approx 40M for ALL the properties involved. That is about the same as FCE was asking for their property, with a far less attractive location. That does not seem out of line to secure a city block in the heart of downtown. That would leave about 385M for construction. What will 385M build? I don't know, but I do know that MMPI is chewing up 300K a month with this nonsense.

 

 

Wow, $40M!  OK, so I stand by my original comment- L&R should be paying much higher property taxes if they are telling the county their property is worth waaaay more than the $10.9M the auditor currently thinks.

The price is what the market will bear. It has NOTHING to due with tax value. They may get more or less depending on what the market will bear. It is no different then selling a home. My home is priceless to me. IF I am interested in selling, I will try to get what the market will bare. The buyer WILL pay what it's perceived value to them is.  In between those prices is called negotiations. Either party may walk until up until a agreement is reached that satisfies BOTH parties  You see how this works? Should my tax rate be "priceless"?

Yes, I understand the difference between market value and subjective value, thank you (I'm sure these Californian investors have grown emotionally attached to that beautiful building).  And I am suggesting that property taxes should be based at least loosely on estimates of market value, not the other way around.  Arm's length offers to purchase property are a pretty good indication of "what the market will bear" because they are the market.  So if the county is offering more than the $10.9M... 

 

Maybe I misinterpreted you previous post- you seemed to be making the case that FMV for the properties was $40M, but maybe you were just guessing what L&R's ask was, which I 100% agree may or may not have anything to do with FMV.

 

To spare the board (and the bored), even though this discussion is not exactly off topic, I don't think I have anything to add about the L&R property.  Sure wish I had the inside scoop on negotiations.  I think I'm OK with the MM going on Mall C and I will smile with schadenfreude if L&R defaults on their financing in 3 years when it's ugly-ass building can't attract tenants or interest from a hotelier.

I think for a long time I thought, "this sure is taking a long time, but I trust that the people at MMPI know what they are doing and are just being careful to make sure this turns out properly."  This has changed to, "Wow, the people of MMPI have no respect for our local leadership.  At worst they are trying to pull out of this deal, or at least they have a very blase attitude about our hundreds of millions of tax dollars."  I understand things change in the course of a development, but to change the location of a large structure or totally drop another enormous structure from the plan entirely screams disorganization.  I also don't think they understand what the Mall means to many citizens of Cleveland, including the Mayor and Council.  I used to think this project was very important for Cleveland, but MMPI is quickly making me lose faith. 

The city can use eminent domain as can Cuyahoga County. But that process doesn't mean the public entity will acquire the property for any less money than what the private property owner is asking for. And there is no guarantee the public entity will even get the property unless it can be shown that there is no reasonable alternative to the property acquisition and that the public is better served by the acquisition.

 

You do not understand eminent domain in the State of Ohio. It is not as simple as you make it sound nor as quick. Suggested reading would start with New Haven vs Kelo. then a review of the State of Ohio's strengthening of private property owners rights after that ruling. Rest assured L&R would fight it , hook, tooth and nail. I would imagine it would wind though the Courts in about 3 years with very questionable results. Re: How did it work out when Lakewood tried it a couple of years ago.

 

You're making friends fast, here, GreenPastures.  :roll:  Where in my message did I suggest that the process was simple? If anything, I suggested that the process was not. Please read through the messages more slowly and with less emotion as it will likely produce responses that are less likely to piss other people off, including me.

 

And I covered a number of eminent domain cases in my 15 years as a reporter at Sun Newspapers, including two that proceeded through both the adjudicated portion and the jury portion of the process. So, do yourself a favor and don't assume what I know and don't know from a message that you didn't read very carefully.

 

Dial down the emotion, GreenerPastures, and learn to play better with others here or, at minimum, I will delete your messages and at worst you will be given time off.

Coming to Cleveland: The world’s second-ever medical convention center

 

CLEVELAND, Ohio –Cleveland’s back-to-the-drawing-board medical mart and convention center has frustrated local politicians. But, in a development even more significant to the success of the project, recent construction setbacks suggest one competing medical convention center could open ahead of Cleveland’s.

 

Executives running the Nashville Medical Trade Center say they’re on track to open by the end of 2012 — and could open temporary convention space for the project by the middle of next year.

 

http://www.medcitynews.com/index.php/2009/11/coming-to-cleveland-the-worlds-second-ever-medical-convention-center/

From Litt:

 

Before medical mart proceeds on Mall C, answers are needed to some key questions

By Steven Litt, The Plain Dealer

November 17, 2009, 4:00AM

 

CLEVELAND, Ohio -- The new proposal by MMPI Inc. of Chicago to build a medical mart on Mall C in downtown Cleveland is a bold and audacious idea that could produce outcomes ranging from terrific to awful.

 

It could give the city an iconic piece of architecture on a spectacular site, along with a fresh global identity as a center of medical innovation.

 

Or it could leave Cleveland with a rushed, poorly conceived structure that gobbles $425 million in hard costs, not to mention another half-billion dollars in interest on county construction bonds.

 

What's critical now is to ask the right questions and to get clear, convincing answers.

 

 

MORE AT CLEVELAND.COM: http://blog.cleveland.com/architecture/2009/11/before_medical_mart_proceeds_o.html

Yeah, now Im totally against this mall C spot and plan.  The location would just be bad for something like this.  The severing of Public hall from the convention center (and its now non-purpose), the issue of (lack of) easy access to hotels and parking, and it would put a nail in this spot being considered for a possibly necessary future expansion of the convention center space. 

 

Plus, the budget for the MM itself isnt big enough to do something significant and/or creative/impressive.  It would be an awkward spot when the convention center isnt hosting a medical related conference.     

I'm beginning to question if any of this is worth it.  A big part of the problem is the arbitrary cap they've put on the project.  They either need to raise that cap and do it right, or concede this project as a failure.  Why spend $400 million to lose the Mall for a second rate facility?

I was always skeptical of the $450MM cap that the Commissioner's placed on the Project.  Seems that they tried to do this on the cheap for political purposes rather than admit that a world class facility would command a much higher investment.

Mall C is enourmous... even just the north end.  I still can't picture how they are going to make this work.  I will wait for renderings, but it better not involve any type of vehicular turnabout on the Mall itself.

 

And I have always agreed that $450 million was not enough to do this project right... no matter where it is sited.

I was always skeptical of the $450MM cap that the Commissioner's placed on the Project.  Seems that they tried to do this on the cheap for political purposes rather than admit that a world class facility would command a much higher investment.

 

Bingo

Not that it addresses issues associated with Public Auditorium, but has there been any consideration of the grassy area immediately to the east of the Administration and Development buildings? Granted, that particular area might have difficulty as far as road access, and it wouldn't be as visible as across from Key Tower, but it looks to me as though the square footage along that small greenbelt exceeds that of the 3 properties along St. Clair. It would be a narrow building, but it could run almost the entire block.

The price is what the market will bear. It has NOTHING to due with tax value. They may get more or less depending on what the market will bear. It is no different then selling a home. My home is priceless to me. IF I am interested in selling, I will try to get what the market will bare. The buyer WILL pay what it's perceived value to them is.  In between those prices is called negotiations. Either party may walk until up until a agreement is reached that satisfies BOTH parties  You see how this works? Should my tax rate be "priceless"?

 

 

? Isn't propert tax valuation supposed to be based on fair market value?

 

At this point I (re)propose a practical question:  What happens to the money if MMPI bails?  $450 million (less whatever MMPI has already siphoned off) is a lot of money.  I presume the revenue stays with the county.  If MMPI can't come up with something good enough for Mall C, I wonder whether or not this money would be better spent on something else.

^First of all we would still build a new convention center and probably rehab Public Hall.  That would suck up most of the money I would assume.

So, a rebuilt CC, with no medical mart, with a shrinking trade show market in a questionable convention city?  This is seriously the answer?

^yes

Oh, sweet Jesus.  :-|

^Our current convention space is absolutely unusable.  Do you recommend Cleveland go without some semblance of a modern CC downtown and rely strictly on the IX center for conventions?

Out of curiosity has the County/City/MMP applied to the State for tax incentives to renovate Public Auditorium?

So, a rebuilt CC, with no medical mart, with a shrinking trade show market in a questionable convention city? This is seriously the answer?

 

What makes Cleveland any more of a "questionable convention city" than Cincinnati, Columbus, Pittsburgh, Indianapolis, etc...?

Out of curiosity has the County/City/MMP applied to the State for tax incentives to renovate Public Auditorium?

 

I think their concepts for a rennovated public auditorium would have disqualified any tax incentive application.

 

To me, the MM was a deal breaker here and has to be included.  It was what was going to separate our convention business from other cities.  Without it, I'm not sure 'the juice is worth the squeeze' especially considering that most other cities operate their CCs at a monetary loss.

 

While I am not saying that it is not a good thing overall, this is one instance where it would have been really helpful for Ohio to let the Kilo decision be the law of our land.  If we operated under the Kilo standard, we would not be in this situation with the hold-out property owners.

^Our current convention space is absolutely unusable. Do you recommend Cleveland go without some semblance of a modern CC downtown and rely strictly on the IX center for conventions?

 

In a word, maybe.  Probably.  I recommend we take a serious look at how this money can be best spent.  You know all those fanciful "What would you do if you had the funds?" threads?  I'm saying how many of us really think building a convention center is the absolute best use of the money?

 

Let it be known that I'm not trying to turn this into a "What would you do with $450 million?" thread.    What I am asking is whether the funds gathered by the tax increase reserved in any way for convention center purposes, or if our private partner MMPI backs out of the deal, is the county free to use those moneys however it sees fit?

^Our current convention space is absolutely unusable. Do you recommend Cleveland go without some semblance of a modern CC downtown and rely strictly on the IX center for conventions?

 

In a word, maybe. Probably.   I recommend we take a serious look at how this money can be best spent. You know all those fanciful "What would you do if you had the funds?" threads? I'm saying how many of us really think building a convention center is the absolute best use of the money?

 

Let it be known that I'm not trying to turn this into a "What would you do with $450 million?" thread. What I am asking is whether the funds gathered by the tax increase reserved in any way for convention center purposes, or if our private partner MMPI backs out of the deal, is the county free to use those moneys however it sees fit?

 

I think we need to arrive a truly realistic amount for the complete Project as originally envisioned and then try to fund the difference whether by extending the tax for a period of time or whatever.  As for the property owners holding out over price, has eminent domain been explored?  This Project is much too important on which to compromise too much. 

So, a rebuilt CC, with no medical mart, with a shrinking trade show market in a questionable convention city?  This is seriously the answer?

 

AGAIN.  The economy will rebound, trade shows will evolve.  HOWEVER, car, boat, housing and garden shows, etc, need GIGANTIC spaces and they cannot go virtual like clothing.

 

We need to do this right NOW so that we can catchup with other cities in order to compete in the future.

Cleveland's landmark Public Auditorium is loaded with safety hazards, says MMPI as firm abandons plans to re-use it

 

With Henry J. Gomez

 

CLEVELAND, Ohio -- Public Auditorium is a public danger inside and out, a detailed analysis of its structure and systems suggests.

 

Officials from MMPI Inc. explained the results of their evaluation of the 87-year-old city-owned building on Tuesday as they explained why they have dropped plans to incorporate much of it into the proposed merchandise mart and convention center.

 

More at Cleveland.com

 

http://blog.cleveland.com/metro/2009/11/clevelands_landmark_public_aud.html

According to the Crains article the "hold out" property owners were asking for $24 million (and they were being offered $17 million (thats not as huge a difference as I expected).  Wouldnt it be worth it to just pay the 24? (I mean if they are not putting expense towards public hall now) 

 

http://www.crainscleveland.com/article/20091117/FREE/911179980

 

"His firm had expected to pay about the $17 million for the 113 St. Clair Building, its attached parking garage and the site of the Sportsman restaurant. But the two property owners involved have held firm on asking prices that total $24 million. County officials said the tax duplicate puts the value of the group of properties at about $6 million."

 

^And at this point, their properties would be worth the amount they are asking for.  There's no way around it, and this should have been expected.

According to the Crains article the "hold out" property owners were asking for $24 million (and they were being offered $17 million (thats not as huge a difference as I expected). Wouldnt it be worth it to just pay the 24? (I mean if they are not putting expense towards public hall now)

 

Exactly! If public hall is out of the question now (i sure as hell hope there will be renovations later on... it's an awesome building) I don't see why it's such a big deal to pay the $24 million.

 

I'm growing frustrated with how this is all being handled. I just want this project to happen.

According to the Crains article the "hold out" property owners were asking for $24 million (and they were being offered $17 million (thats not as huge a difference as I expected). Wouldnt it be worth it to just pay the 24? (I mean if they are not putting expense towards public hall now)

 

Exactly! If public hall is out of the question now (i sure as hell hope there will be renovations later on... it's an awesome building) I don't see why it's such a big deal to pay the $24 million.

 

I'm growing frustrated with how this is all being handled. I just want this project to happen.

 

Yes, the Project needs to happen, BUT not in a way that compromises form, function and aesthetics.  I have a feeling, and mind you it's just a feeling, that we are being prepared for a much scaled back facility.

Cleveland's landmark Public Auditorium is loaded with safety hazards, says MMPI as firm abandons plans to re-use it

 

With Henry J. Gomez

 

CLEVELAND, Ohio -- Public Auditorium is a public danger inside and out, a detailed analysis of its structure and systems suggests.

 

Officials from MMPI Inc. explained the results of their evaluation of the 87-year-old city-owned building on Tuesday as they explained why they have dropped plans to incorporate much of it into the proposed merchandise mart and convention center.

 

More at Cleveland.com

 

http://blog.cleveland.com/metro/2009/11/clevelands_landmark_public_aud.html

 

Wow, the comments following this article are actually very good. Lot's of good points about what they should have expected rehabbing a building. All of those issues sound pretty standard in an old structure be it a building or a house. Did MMPI expect just to waltz in throw up some paint, lay some new carpet and put up new light fixtures and be good to go? If the aren't planning to go after Historical Tax credits they would have a lot more lattitude on how to solve these issues. Sounds fishy to me.

 

Did the Osborne report look at public hall too or just the Convention Center?

Did the Osborne report look at public hall too or just the Convention Center?

 

I believe they just looked at the Convention Center foundation in their report.  If I remember correctly the entire reason for the study was to determine whether or not he "bathtub foundation" could be reused.

Here is a graphic of what they would like to do.  I like how they show mall C intact, but how would the building be accessed?  Certainly it would require a drive and drop off lanes etc..  awkward. 

 

They say (I guess the first three floors) would look into the convention center, great for medical conventions, but will the CC not be hosting other events?  Is that really a plus to see up into a medical mart from the home and flower show?

 

 

CLICK TO SEE IMAGE:

http://media.cleveland.com/metro/photo/mart-graphicjpg-9eb422c9ca0c5ce7.jpg

I'm no electrician, but those electrical issues seem like something that could be fixed with circuit breakers. Everything else seems fixable as well. Maybe not ideal, but certainly what I would expect with an older building. Maybe the steel anchors, cooling coils and asbestos are the biggest issues.

 

Re: the conversation upthread regarding a CC without med mart... personally, I would not support a stand alone CC without the med mart to support it, for the reasons that have all been previously stated. I was against a standalone CC before, and I remain so. Hoot, you made my point, by listing those very cities that already have CC's that we'd be competing with. It's not that Cleveland is any worse than those cities, but it is comparable, and there's a lot of players in this industry now. Unless someone looking to build the CC can guarantee a certain number of shows a year, I don't see the benefits outweighing the costs.

Electrical explosions on a knife switch? are you fricking kidding me? Is there any other way to open a live knife switch?

 

Interesting proposal. It could work...I am guessing access would be on the sides.