Actually, if the ground level view were so important (and I don't think it is, especially the farther south you view from), maybe they could design the building with a "hole" on the first few levels.  I stayed at a Westin in Hollywood Florida that had such a gap, although it was higher up.  Pardon the tinker toy rendering,  lol, although it may be more than we have from the pro's at this point  :-D  If you wanted a wider MM, you could do two gaps like a letter "M"

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If designed well as noted in the "drawing" above this could actually work.  Two things; could it be built over the railroad tracks and be used as a "bridge" to the waterfront.  And if not why does it have to be built at the end of the mall, why not two smaller buildings on either side of the mall, framing the mall, making it a bit smaller but than injecting tons of people into this space as they go into either of the buildings. 

Without Public Auditorium, there is no purpose to having the convention center stuffed in between public buildings.  They are making an island out of the convention center.  What fun is going to a convention in Cleveland if there is nothing around there to draw people in?  The upside to going to a city for a convention is the fun of activities around the convention building itself.  If we surround the center with a lot of government buildings, it will just suck.  Gee... Probate court to the west and city hall to the east.  While in town they can either be reminded of their mortality or pick up a building permit. What great excitement.  No convention will want to come here.

 

Now that Public Auditorium is out, the convention center can go anywhere.  The best place to put it is with Cleveland's new entertainment draw -- The Casino.  That way we can get people from out of state may actually come to the Casino, not just prevent people who live in Ohio from leaving to gamble. The business people who come into town are therefore in the middle of entertainment possibilities which makes their visit to Cleveland fun.  Fun conventions makes them want to have more conventions here.

Without Public Auditorium, there is no purpose to having the convention center stuffed in between public buildings.  They are making an island out of the convention center.  What fun is going to a convention in Cleveland if there is nothing around there to draw people in?  The upside to going to a city for a convention is the fun of activities around the convention building itself.  If we surround the center with a lot of government buildings, it will just suck.  Gee... Probate court to the west and city hall to the east.  While in town they can either be reminded of their mortality or pick up a building permit. What great excitement.  No convention will want to come here.

 

Now that Public Auditorium is out, the convention center can go anywhere. The best place to put it is with Cleveland's new entertainment draw -- The Casino.  That way we can get people from out of state may actually come to the Casino, not just prevent people who live in Ohio from leaving to gamble. The business people who come into town are therefore in the middle of entertainment possibilities which makes their visit to Cleveland fun.  Fun conventions makes them want to have more conventions here.

 

I honestly do not understand your post

 

[*]The convention center is already under the mall.  It's the BEST place for the center.  I notice you critique the location, yet give no argument for a different location.  In addition it will not be a big ugly building.

 

[*]Nothing around?  The Warehouse District, Tower City and East Fourth areas are all within a 5-10 minute walk.  Our convention center in it's current state and location is closer than its counter parts in other cities with the exception of Philadelphia.

[*]The convention cannot go "anywhere" as there is not support infrastructure (hotels, restaurants, public transit, etc.) to put a convention center "anywhere".

 

People coming for a convention can easily walk to tower city from the convention center. 

 

The city shouldn't be built for out of towners but for it's current and potential residents.

I was for the Tower City location, but have gone along with building on the current center, just to: a) get the thing downtown, somewhere, and b) to get the damn thing moving.  I thought the most important aspect/argument for the current location was/is rejuvenation of Public Hall, but MMPI wants that gone under the current County budget limitations (unless, as noted, its tactic to get the St. Clair/Ontario holdouts to come down in asking price).    Of course, I also think that at any location, a major hotel should be key as well as, at the current site, direct access to the new multi-modal North Coast Train (as in 3-C corridor) station. 

 

But losing Public Hall is a deal-breaker to me.  I could kinda sorta, with a big stretch go along with MTS's impassioned argument that the planned MMPI location at St. Clair and Ontario was kinda-sorta accessible (in nice weather, of course) to downtown sites.  But even the strongest of advocates for rebuilding the current site admit that positioning the main, above-ground MMPI center at the end of Mall C, sandwitched btw civic-use City Hall and the Courthouse (and blocking the lake view) is much more isolated from downtown attractions.  And then we have our gigantic, beautiful Public Auditorium once again an empty white elephant on this MMPI faced/blocked Mall C... with no promise of hotels or train station access... seems 1 step forward, 3 steps backwards.

 

BTW, MTS, I'm pretty certain Icecream meant the main, above-groound signature MMPI portion of the cc (as being sandwitched btween to public buildings at the ned of the  Mall C), not the whole cc.

I was for the Tower City location, but have gone along with building on the current center, just to: a) get the thing downtown, somewhere, and b) to get the damn thing moving.  I thought the most important aspect/argument for the current location was/is rejuvenation of Public Hall, but MMPI wants that gone under the current County budget limitations (unless, as noted, its tactic to get the St. Clair/Ontario holdouts to come down in asking price).    Of course, I also think that at any location, a major hotel should be key as well as, at the current site, direct access to the new multi-modal North Coast Train (as in 3-C corridor) station. 

 

But losing Public Hall is a deal-breaker to me.  I could kinda sorta, with a big stretch go along with MTS's impassioned argument that the planned MMPI location at St. Clair and Ontario was kinda-sorta accessible (in nice weather, of course) to downtown sites.  But even the strongest of advocates for rebuilding the current site admit that positioning the main, above-ground MMPI center at the end of Mall C, sandwitched btw civic-use City Hall and the Courthouse (and blocking the lake view) is much more isolated from downtown attractions.  And then we have our gigantic, beautiful Public Auditorium once again an empty white elephant on this MMPI faced/blocked Mall C... with no promise of hotels or train station access... seems 1 step forward, 3 steps backwards.

 

BTW, MTS, I'm pretty certain Icecream meant the main, above-groound signature MMPI portion of the cc (as being sandwitched btween to public buildings at the ned of the  Mall C), not the whole cc.

 

I'm not a mind reader. I know what he/she typed.

 

I never read anywhere that PH/MH was the most important argument.  PH/MH was an addition to the original plans, IIRC.

 

I agree, the hotel should be the number one thing.  Not build it then build a hotel, they should be built at the same time.

 

As I said before the budget was too low from jump.  Hopefully, some pressure will be put on those owners holding out.

 

I never read anywhere that PH/MH was the most important argument. PH/MH was an addition to the original plans, IIRC.

 

PH/MH was the most important part of MY getting behind the Mall proposal; not theirs.

I simply don't like spoiling this nice public...'public' being the operative word, vista for such a building. If it can be incorporated within it...maybe, but not just placing a big box down that would deny public access to those who are simply wanting to walk and take in atmosphere. If the trains are incorporated into the picture as well, I prefer a scenario that doesn't have people going from train to hotel and never setting foot outside. I like something that actually encourages some foot traffic in the city outside the bubbles.

Folks, the restaurants and clubs and other attractions will go where the people are. I suspect St. Clair could become host to a nice little strip of spin-off developments from the convention center. Yes, there's not much there now -- the Sportsman on one side and the Tavern on the Mall on the other. But things can and do change. I suspect that's one reason why the property owners at St. Clair and Ontario are holding out for a better offer -- because their properties will probably become more valuable with a rebuilt CC and new MM next to them.

Actually, if the ground level view were so important (and I don't think it is, especially the farther south you view from), maybe they could design the building with a "hole" on the first few levels. I stayed at a Westin in Hollywood Florida that had such a gap, although it was higher up. Pardon the tinker toy rendering, lol, although it may be more than we have from the pro's at this point :-D If you wanted a wider MM, you could do two gaps like a letter "M"

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Or maybe similar to the Federal Reserve Bank building in Boston, Massachusetts:

 

http://www.flickr.com/photos/19346767@N00/707253437#

Actually, if the ground level view were so important (and I don't think it is, especially the farther south you view from), maybe they could design the building with a "hole" on the first few levels. I stayed at a Westin in Hollywood Florida that had such a gap, although it was higher up. Pardon the tinker toy rendering, lol, although it may be more than we have from the pro's at this point :-D If you wanted a wider MM, you could do two gaps like a letter "M"

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I can't believe I never thought of that! I would definitely support something like this, if it is done correctly.

Folks, the restaurants and clubs and other attractions will go where the people are. I suspect St. Clair could become host to a nice little strip of spin-off developments from the convention center. Yes, there's not much there now -- the Sportsman on one side and the Tavern on the Mall on the other. But things can and do change. I suspect that's one reason why the property owners at St. Clair and Ontario are holding out for a better offer -- because their properties will probably become more valuable with a rebuilt CC and new MM next to them.

 

Actually, I'm not so sure the med mart/convention center is really going to bring a steady enough supply of visitors, even if all works out, to support a whole new entertainment/dining infrastructure.  And that's not a knock against Cleveland- the areas immediately surrounding lots of successful convention centers are pretty barren.  Certainly the case in NYC.  I'm not a DC expert by any stretch, but I was pretty surprised how crappy things are near their newish convention center still (as of this past summer); here's the googlemap streetview of immediately  west of the center, about 5 or 6 years after it opened:

 

http://maps.google.com/?ie=UTF8&ll=38.90461,-77.023956&spn=0,359.993461&t=h&z=18&layer=c&cbll=38.904711,-77.023956&panoid=mAat_nYl3KTJhEkCxq0FWQ&cbp=12,229.17,,0,-5.71

 

 

 

Actually, if the ground level view were so important (and I don't think it is, especially the farther south you view from), maybe they could design the building with a "hole" on the first few levels. I stayed at a Westin in Hollywood Florida that had such a gap, although it was higher up. Pardon the tinker toy rendering, lol, although it may be more than we have from the pro's at this point :-D If you wanted a wider MM, you could do two gaps like a letter "M"

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Or maybe similar to the Federal Reserve Bank building in Boston, Massachusetts:

 

http://www.flickr.com/photos/19346767@N00/707253437#

 

Or like the La Grande Arche in Paris, but not as tall. However, I would prefer it to not be built on Mall C or for it to be incorporated into the NCTC.

 

Folks, the restaurants and clubs and other attractions will go where the people are. I suspect St. Clair could become host to a nice little strip of spin-off developments from the convention center. Yes, there's not much there now -- the Sportsman on one side and the Tavern on the Mall on the other. But things can and do change. I suspect that's one reason why the property owners at St. Clair and Ontario are holding out for a better offer -- because their properties will probably become more valuable with a rebuilt CC and new MM next to them.

 

Actually, I'm not so sure the med mart/convention center is really going to bring a steady enough supply of visitors, even if all works out, to support a whole new entertainment/dining infrastructure.  And that's not a knock against Cleveland- the areas immediately surrounding lots of successful convention centers are pretty barren.  Certainly the case in NYC.  I'm not a DC expert by any stretch, but I was pretty surprised how crappy things are near their newish convention center still (as of this past summer); here's the googlemap streetview of immediately  west of the center, about 5 or 6 years after it opened:

 

http://maps.google.com/?ie=UTF8&ll=38.90461,-77.023956&spn=0,359.993461&t=h&z=18&layer=c&cbll=38.904711,-77.023956&panoid=mAat_nYl3KTJhEkCxq0FWQ&cbp=12,229.17,,0,-5.71

 

 

 

 

What do you mean by "new"?  If anything the business in the WHD and Galleria areas would grow closer.

 

The comparison of our convention center to DC is off base in my opinion.

 

Had you been to DC before their NEW convention center was built?  That area was super ghetto (a la kinsman & garden valley) but they already had hotel infrastructure to the west of the new CC in play since the old convention center was a few blocks away.

 

The new center is surrounded by the hood but the convention center is attracting hotels.  The best comparison for the area the DC convention center is the Cleveland Clinic and Carnegie/Cedar.

^Yes, I agree with you (generally).  Because the existing restaurants and entertainment are already pretty close, I'm not counting on St. Clair to develop into much of a dining/entertainment scene.  Maybe a new hotel in the area down the line- though probably not in the near future with a vacancy rate at 50%.  My only point was to questions KJP's expectations of new businesses popping up to serve conventioneers right near the center.

 

I don't understand your reference to the WHD and galleria though.  The Mall C location is farther from the WHD or Galleria than the originally proposed St. Clair location, and in any case, the Galleria is more likely to depress visitors than attract them...

General rule of thumb: it's preferable to have conv. centers near the existing retail/entertainment/restaurant infrastructure because they, don't in themselves, attract them ... mainly due to the uneven and cyclical nature of these big, blocky boxes of rooms, a large percentage of which are empty a large percentage of the year.  It's the convention hotel, attached, which does attract such infrastructure because they are constantly busy with travelers in addition to convention and entertainment activity.  That's why it's unthinkable for anyone to suggest Cleveland not include a large, high quality convention-style hotel – which we’re currently lacking.

 

It’s why,  Straphanger, the D.C. neighborhood, while better with the 6-year old conv. Center, is nowhere near thriving.  It’s directly on the Metro Line but several blocks away from hotels and restaurants.  It’s not downtown like ours would be.  And actually, contrary to MTS’ comment, Philadelphia’s area around their large and currently greatly expanding Conv. Center, was not always the thriving, bustling area it is now – it was, even as recently as a 15 years ago, in a rundown part of downtown Philly – an area much like our pre-Gateway Prospect corridor – and which even today, has some hony-tonk-ness about it (a few cheap jewelry and clothing shops and even a peep show here ‘n there).  But Philly made the convention center the core of several new connected hotels, a rehabbed existing Reading terminal market, an underground commuter rail terminal connected to a Tower City-ish new (in the 80s) shopping mall, and a bevy of new restaurants – in addition to being next to one of the nation’s best Chinatowns (which has always been leery of the PA Convention Center much the way the Warehouse District in Cleveland has been of a new cc being built there: WHD sees a cc as hampering its growth)….  I emphasize the Philly HOTELS around the convention center, at least 8 that I can think of off hand, with the linchpin being the 1,200-room Marriott on Market Street (God, even if we had one half that size -- our largest, room-wise, is still Renaissance with 492 rooms – would be a giant leap forward for this town).

 

In short, if we REALLY want to make the MMPI cc successful, no matter where on the Mall it ultimately ends up, where going to get away from our typical Cleveland one-at-a-time, development-on-an-island mentality.  (exhibit A: the Rock Hall and GL Science Ctr)…  A better example here is Gateway, where there has been more of a comprehensive neighborhood development approach, including some hotels, even though its been a little slow in developing – but now is coming along nicely.

 

clvlndr is absolutely right. I can't believe that there is no plan for a large convention style hotel to be attached to the convention center. I think the St Claire site is a perfect location for a large hotel to be attached to the underground convention center. In fact, I think the County Administration Building should just be demolished to make room for one very large hotel, and perhaps some shopping.

General rule of thumb: it's preferable to have conv. centers near the existing retail/entertainment/restaurant infrastructure because they, don't in themselves, attract them ... mainly due to the uneven and cyclical nature of these big, blocky boxes of rooms, a large percentage of which are empty a large percentage of the year.  It's the convention hotel, attached, which does attract such infrastructure because they are constantly busy with travelers in addition to convention and entertainment activity.  That's why it's unthinkable for anyone to suggest Cleveland not include a large, high quality convention-style hotel – which we’re currently lacking.

 

It’s why,  Straphanger, the D.C. neighborhood, while better with the 6-year old conv. Center, is nowhere near thriving.  It’s directly on the Metro Line but several blocks away from hotels and restaurants.  It’s not downtown like ours would be.  And actually, contrary to MTS’ comment, Philadelphia’s area around their large and currently greatly expanding Conv. Center, was not always the thriving, bustling area it is now – it was, even as recently as a 15 years ago, in a rundown part of downtown Philly – an area much like our pre-Gateway Prospect corridor – and which even today, has some hony-tonk-ness about it (a few cheap jewelry and clothing shops and even a peep show here ‘n there).  But Philly made the convention center the core of several new connected hotels, a rehabbed existing Reading terminal market, an underground commuter rail terminal connected to a Tower City-ish new (in the 80s) shopping mall, and a bevy of new restaurants – in addition to being next to one of the nation’s best Chinatowns (which has always been leery of the PA Convention Center much the way the Warehouse District in Cleveland has been of a new cc being built there: WHD sees a cc as hampering its growth)….  I emphasize the Philly HOTELS around the convention center, at least 8 that I can think of off hand, with the linchpin being the 1,200-room Marriott on Market Street (God, even if we had one half that size -- our largest, room-wise, is still Renaissance with 492 rooms – would be a giant leap forward for this town).

 

In short, if we REALLY want to make the MMPI cc successful, no matter where on the Mall it ultimately ends up, where going to get away from our typical Cleveland one-at-a-time, development-on-an-island mentality.  (exhibit A: the Rock Hall and GL Science Ctr)…  A better example here is Gateway, where there has been more of a comprehensive neighborhood development approach, including some hotels, even though its been a little slow in developing – but now is coming along nicely.

 

 

I'm aware of that. Hell it wasn't until 2002/2003 that the area took off.  There are still some fried chicken joints over there.  Race st was a mess.

 

However, that CC, has help attract many new hotels. Ritz Carlton, Four Seasons, Four Points, Hampton Inn a sofitel.  not to mention the renovated suburban and market stations.

Well I guess I'll be the one to post this. They have a slide show of the "condemming photos". I see an old building and about a million dollars in copper scrap....I see no smoking gun...

 

 

MMPI says studies reveal dozens of electrical, other issues inside Public Auditorium

By Laura Johnston, The Plain Dealer

November 24, 2009, 6:17AM

View full sizeLisa DeJong, Plain Dealer fileWhen Public Auditorium was gleaming brand new, it was the biggest convention hall in the country. But years of neglect have created problems inside the hall. CLEVELAND, Ohio — Back when Cleveland was the fifth-biggest city in the nation, Public Auditorium was gleaming brand new, the biggest convention hall in the country.

 

It would welcome the Republican National Convention twice, and host decades of concerts, including the Beatles in 1964. But according to the developers of a downtown medical mart and convention center, the stately edifice hasn't been upgraded much since then...

 

Read more at:

http://blog.cleveland.com/metro/2009/11/mmpi_says_studies_reveal_dozen.html

^Looks like an old building to me.  What did MMPI expect when they agreed to renovate a nearly 90 year old hall that hasn't been seriously renovated in 40 or 50 years?  In my opinion MMPI has decided that public hall isn't going to be an integral part of the MM and now they're looking for ways to back out of their commitment. 

 

This move really leaves a sour taste in my mouth.

City officials say they await detailed reports from MMPI before deciding how to address the hall, but Mayor Frank Jackson didn't wait to blast the company.

 

"You didn't have to basically condemn the place," Jackson said. "You didn't have to do that."

 

Is this what passes for a negotiating strategy?  If this is what he is saying publically, can you imagine what he is saying privately?  I will retract one of my earlier statementsabout the estimated renovation cost.  If the entire facade has to be removed and reinstalled (in addition to the HVAC and electrical work) the $60 million figure is starting to look possible.  Still too high by a factor of two but at least not off by an order of magnitude. 

 

I could have told MMPI the place needed MAJOR work and saved us all the money....but that's not how life works in the public sector....

I am shocked, absolutely shocked (pun intended) to hear that the City of Cleveland doesn't upgrade their properties.

I am shocked, absolutely shocked (pun intended) to hear that the City of Cleveland doesn't upgrade their properties.

 

For Christsakes, give it a rest people.  It's really hard to upgrade and maintain facilities when little income from said facility is coming in.

 

It's just like YOUR house, you can't upgrade/renovate it if you aren't making the money to do so.  So you do spot work.

 

this is all the more reason the mall/CC and PH/MH need to be renovated so they can become revenue generating facilities.

It appears that a key point in this whole debacle is the different standards that public and private buildings are held to. The city had a lot less liability risk than what MMPI will have operating this building. MMPI I am guessing  has had little experience operating a public building and were shocked with what they found, somebody correct me if I am wrong on that one though.

 

My first thought when I saw these pictures was I saw things ten times worse at my highschool, which was piecemeal building added on willy nilly (1919, WPA, additions in the 60s and 70s, finally closed this year). But that was a public building too, so it was maintained with a "just enough" mentality too.

 

That being said I still think MMPI is over acting on this. Although the stone facade having to be rehung would be a major deal.

 

 

HMMM the Public Hall Casino, has a nice ring doesn't it? JK!

It appears that a key point in this whole debacle is the different standards that public and private buildings are held to. The city had a lot less liability risk than what MMPI will have operating this building.

 

That argument has some real merit to it.  MMPI would, in all likelihood, not be entitled to the sovereign immunity which shields to political subdivisions of this State.  Cleveland is pissed because MMPI, by notifying the City and the public of the conditions, just severely damaged the shield which Cleveland did have with regard to PH and any dangerous, latent defects with that property.

It appears that a key point in this whole debacle is the different standards that public and private buildings are held to. The city had a lot less liability risk than what MMPI will have operating this building.

 

That argument has some real merit to it.  MMPI would, in all likelihood, not be entitled to the sovereign immunity which shields to political subdivisions of this State.  Cleveland is pissed because MMPI, by notifying the City and the public of the conditions, just severely damaged the shield which Cleveland did have with regard to PH and any dangerous, latent defects with that property.

 

In other words, MMPI opened a big can of worms for the city, Correct?

It appears that a key point in this whole debacle is the different standards that public and private buildings are held to. The city had a lot less liability risk than what MMPI will have operating this building.

 

That argument has some real merit to it. MMPI would, in all likelihood, not be entitled to the sovereign immunity which shields to political subdivisions of this State. Cleveland is pissed because MMPI, by notifying the City and the public of the conditions, just severely damaged the shield which Cleveland did have with regard to PH and any dangerous, latent defects with that property.

 

In other words, MMPI opened a big can of worms for the city, Correct?

 

Well, yeah.  The City is shielded if it is a simple case of negligence - i.e. not taking care of the building or not properly inspecting for dangerous conditions.  But if they were notified of dangerous conditions, did nothing to correct the defects, and put the public in danger anyways... that is a different story and the analysis starts to tip away from negligence and more towards recklessness and/or malice.  This is a big problem for the City from a legal standpoint and I am sure they are hearing from their insurance company (if they have one) about this.

So is this MMPI's way of forcing the city to improve the property, one way (i.e. as part of the medical mart) or another (as a City of Cleveland facility)?

I wish the city hadn't made such a stink about MMPI when they first talked about the $60MM fugure, it just shined a bigger spotlight on the problem

I wish the city hadn't made such a stink about MMPI when they first talked about the $60MM fugure, it just shined a bigger spotlight on the problem

 

Why?  The problem(s) would have come out eventually.  I say its better now than later, then have MORE residents complain about the overall costs.

 

So what we got egg on our face.  MMPI really isn't at fault wrong, in my opinion.

 

• They want to build a facility
  
• They have a specific budget
  

 

Put it in your home buying perspective.  Would a adjoining lot look nice with your home?  However, after having an inspection you find out about massive issues and taxes.  Do you still buy it?  What's my return on investment?  What will these discovered issues do to my bottom line.

 

Don't look at this from an emotional standpoint, but a BUSINESS standpoint.

The Edward Kennedy Medical Technology Center & Memorial Garden

 

Is this the end game?

 

 

PDF of letter from Mayor Jackson to MMPI from today:

 

http://media.cleveland.com/cityhall_impact/other/Mayor%20Jackson%27s%20Ltr%20to%20Chris%20Kennedy%20Med%20Mart%20%2811%2024%2009%29.pdf

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Article:

 

Frustrated with medical mart hangups, Cleveland Mayor Frank Jackson sends questions to MMPI President Chris Kennedy

By Henry J. Gomez, The Plain Dealer

November 25, 2009, 12:13AM

 

Mayor Frank Jackson fired off a letter today to Chris Kennedy, president of MMPI. The mayor asked Kennedy for specific documentation and answers related to the company's plans for a medical mart and convention center complex.

 

CLEVELAND, Ohio -- Mayor Frank Jackson, upset with what he believes is a lack of communication from developers of a proposed medical merchandise mart and convention center, is demanding specific details and documentation related to the deal.

 

In a letter sent today to Chris Kennedy, president of MMPI, Jackson unleashed a series of questions -- some simple, others more nitty-gritty...

 

http://www.cleveland.com/cityhall/index.ssf/2009/11/frustrated_with_medical_mart_h.html

 

 

^ WOW.  Mayor Jackson, how much of that 20 million from the county went for the infrastructurally challenged PA?  I am not sure who should be indignant here!  At any rate. where are the county commissioners anyway, lately, at a retirement seminar?  Come on people, lets get this going!

 

I was wondering if the MM building, if built on Mall C, would have to be larger than the original St Clair building in order to house what would have been on St Clair, plus the meetng rooms that would have been in the PA.  I always thought it would have been cool to have a  long, mid rise building between Ontario and Franz Pastorius, with a wavy window wall overlooking Mall B.  I haven't seen anything as to where the space allocated to the PA would now go.  Anyway the plot thickens. 

This is why I didn't criticize the mayor for his due diligence earlier when many people accused him of attempting to hold up the project.

 

I like that he, thinks, before speaking.  He's not a hot head.

 

Like urb-a-saurus, I too ask, where are the commish's??  They should offer to add more money and come down on MMPI.

 

They are letting MMPI, take public swipes at the city.  Yes, the city was negligent with PA. 

 

They have got to get those properties on st. clair.  Mall C is not an option.

I'm beginning to dislike public/private partnerships in this town!  LOL

 

If something is not planned soon which will truly benefit the city, maybe it's best that one of the two parties walk away from the deal.  All of these stories about the proposed Mall C site leave out the county- who was recently looking throughout downtown for 250,000 sf of available office space in case the hold-out property owners wouldn't budge.  Well, they're not budging- and they, from their standpoint, shouldn't.  Though this is holding up the process, when it comes to land acquisition this is the name of the game.  We all don't like it (I sure as hell don't), but they own the property and are in a position to demand more for it.

 

How long would it take for the county to vacate it's current space and have the building torn down?  We've seen some pretty fast demolitions in this town, which seems to be getting better and better at demolitions.  I'm for tearing the county building down and getting started on that land.  It sure as hell would be cheaper than purchasing the property from the hold-outs, and I don't think too many people would complain over the loss of this particular building. 

 

And what of the PA?  Would the county be able to restructure and extend the tax for, say, another 5 years so that the PA could be completely renovated?  If it is going to cost $90 million to do it the right way, we should have it done now so that new life can be given to that beautiful space sooner rather than yeeears down the road.

Folks, the county commissioners are lame ducks (remember the voting results for Issue 6?) and will be out of the discussion in about a month.

I'm beginning to dislike public/private partnerships in this town!  LOL

 

If something is not planned soon which will truly benefit the city, maybe it's best that one of the two parties walk away from the deal.  All of these stories about the proposed Mall C site leave out the county- who was recently looking throughout downtown for 250,000 sf of available office space in case the hold-out property owners wouldn't budge.  Well, they're not budging- and they, from their standpoint, shouldn't.  Though this is holding up the process, when it comes to land acquisition this is the name of the game.  We all don't like it (I sure as hell don't), but they own the property and are in a position to demand more for it.

 

How long would it take for the county to vacate it's current space and have the building torn down?  We've seen some pretty fast demolitions in this town, which seems to be getting better and better at demolitions.  I'm for tearing the county building down and getting started on that land.  It sure as hell would be cheaper than purchasing the property from the hold-outs, and I don't think too many people would complain over the loss of this particular building. 

 

And what of the PA?  Would the county be able to restructure and extend the tax for, say, another 5 years so that the PA could be completely renovated?  If it is going to cost $90 million to do it the right way, we should have it done now so that new life can be given to that beautiful space sooner rather than yeeears down the road.

 

I agree

Folks, the county commissioners are lame ducks (remember the voting results for Issue 6?) and will be out of the discussion in about a month.

 

And that scares MMPI...

 

Look to me, the recent actions by MMPI are a win-win for them, they are covered if it fails (held hostage by land owners, crumbling facilities) and they look like heroes if the work through the adversity and get this MM/CC off the ground and running.

I also agree...  Instead of wringing hands over the problem the powers that be should be steeping-up to the plate with proposals.  While politically unpopular, as pointed out an extension of the tax (which is deminimus for most anyway and therefore not even noticed) could solve the problem and incorporate a great public space into a world class facility.

Folks, the county commissioners are lame ducks (remember the voting results for Issue 6?) and will be out of the discussion in about a month.

 

Exactly, don't look to them for help on this.  I said it before, and I'll say it again. I think it's funny how all these issues with public hall came out right after the issue 6 failure.

How long would it take for the county to vacate it's current space and have the building torn down? We've seen some pretty fast demolitions in this town, which seems to be getting better and better at demolitions. I'm for tearing the county building down and getting started on that land. It sure as hell would be cheaper than purchasing the property from the hold-outs, and I don't think too many people would complain over the loss of this particular building.  

 

Two comments I will make on this:

 

1) It is not as simple as tearing down a vacant building.  The bigger task would be the move.  You have to keep in mind the record keeping that goes on (or at least is required by law to occur) at that building.  Between the Recorder's Office and the Auditor's Office, they can't simply stuff the paperwork in a box and walk it down the street.  Further, in addition to the pure manpower cost of moving the tangible items, it would be an added expense for the County to move out of a building that it owns and into a space it would have to rent.  I don't know that the County has the money to do it.

 

2) I would hate to see the smirk on the 113 and Sportsman owners faces if that was the final decision.  They get just what they want - a gleaming new building right next door, a renovated CC accross the road and private interests banging on their door looking to develop their properties into a hotel or some other spin off.

^The county announced months ago that it was looking to lease space in the downtown core, though they own both the building in discussion and also the Breuer tower.  As the county put out an RFP for office space, I could only assume that the funds are there to rent out this much office space.  And I will have to correct myself- it was actually 350,000 sf of space.

 

Even the cost of this move would be less than spending $24 million on two properties to be acquired for the Mart.  I don't see how developing these properties into a hotel in the future would be a bad idea.  Again, these are the current property owners of the site- and as they are "required" for the MM proposal, they can ask for whatever dollar amount they want for their properties.  If a hotel developer were to come with more money than what is being offered by MMPI- I'm sure they wouldn't mind selling.

 

http://www.cleveland.com/business/index.ssf/2009/07/cuyahoga_county_launches_searc.html

 

Cuyahoga County launches search for new office space

By Michelle Jarboe, The Plain Dealer

July 16, 2009, 5:50PM

 

CLEVELAND -- Cuyahoga County has begun a formal search for new office space, hedging against the prospect that its administration building could be knocked down for the medical mart project.

 

The county began soliciting pitches this week from downtown property owners who can house roughly 1,100 workers in a single building or two adjacent buildings. According to a request for proposals, the county wants 350,000 square feet of contiguous office space that is available within 18 months.

This is why I didn't criticize the mayor for his due diligence earlier when many people accused him of attempting to hold up the project.

 

I like that he, thinks, before speaking.  He's not a hot head.

 

Like urb-a-saurus, I too ask, where are the commish's??  They should offer to add more money and come down on MMPI.

 

They are letting MMPI, take public swipes at the city.  Yes, the city was negligent with PA. 

 

They have got to get those properties on st. clair.  Mall C is not an option.

 

??? Are you serious? Aside from the atrocious grammar used in his letter (did the legal department review this first?) look at this gem,

 

"The city of Cleveland will gladly retain public auditorium and make the necessary repairs".  Is he serious? $60, 000,000.00 in repairs? remove, repair and reinstall facade? $6,000,000.00 per year in operating expenses?

 

If he is bluffing, who does he think he is fooling?

 

If he is not bluffing and the repair bill is real MMPI would be fools not to accept and we will be stuck with a white elephant. 

 

The only acceptable solution is for public auditorium to be a renevated part of the new convention center.  I don't see how the Mayor's letter moves in that direction. 

 

The commissioners are out of this.  Their political careers are over.  Not one of them could be elected dog catcher at this point.  Jackson is now carrying our water and MMPI will run circles around him.

This is why I didn't criticize the mayor for his due diligence earlier when many people accused him of attempting to hold up the project.

 

I like that he, thinks, before speaking.  He's not a hot head.

 

Like urb-a-saurus, I too ask, where are the commish's??  They should offer to add more money and come down on MMPI.

 

They are letting MMPI, take public swipes at the city.  Yes, the city was negligent with PA. 

 

They have got to get those properties on st. clair.  Mall C is not an option.

 

??? Are you serious? Aside from the atrocious grammar used in his letter (did the legal department review this first?) look at this gem,

 

"The city of Cleveland will gladly retain public auditorium and make the necessary repairs".  Is he serious? $60, 000,000.00 in repairs? remove, repair and reinstall facade? $6,000,000.00 per year in operating expenses?

 

If he is bluffing, who does he think he is fooling?

 

The commissioners are out of this.  Their political careers are over.  Not one of them could be elected dog catcher at this point.  Jackson is now carrying our water and MMPI will run circles around him.

 

If I had to guess, the letter was written by Mark Krantz not Jackson or anybody in the law department.

 

And don't underestimate the calculations which went into the language used.  For instance, the City's commitments to make the

"necessary" repairs does not automatically equate to a $60 million expenditure... unless, that is, the City agrees that all the deficiencies MMPI identified qualify as "necessary" repairs, which I doubt it does.  The City will make it a "safe" building.... nothing more.

This is why I didn't criticize the mayor for his due diligence earlier when many people accused him of attempting to hold up the project.

 

I like that he, thinks, before speaking.  He's not a hot head.

 

Like urb-a-saurus, I too ask, where are the commish's??  They should offer to add more money and come down on MMPI.

 

They are letting MMPI, take public swipes at the city.  Yes, the city was negligent with PA. 

 

They have got to get those properties on st. clair.  Mall C is not an option.

 

:? Are you serious? Aside from the atrocious grammar used in his letter (did the legal department review this first?) look at this gem,

 

"The city of Cleveland will gladly retain public auditorium and make the necessary repairs".  Is he serious? $60, 000,000.00 in repairs? remove, repair and reinstall facade? $6,000,000.00 per year in operating expenses?

 

If he is bluffing, who does he think he is fooling?

 

If he is not bluffing and the repair bill is real MMPI would be fools not to accept and we will be stuck with a white elephant. 

 

The only acceptable solution is for public auditorium to be a renevated part of the new convention center.  I don't see how the Mayor's letter moves in that direction. 

 

The commissioners are out of this.  Their political careers are over.  Not one of them could be elected dog catcher at this point.  Jackson is now carrying our water and MMPI will run circles around him.

 

Speaking of grammar??

 

What is your beef with the Mayor?  Are you a tax paying citizen of Cleveland?

 

And don't underestimate the calculations which went into the language used.  For instance, the City's commitments to make the

"necessary" repairs does not automatically equate to a $60 million expenditure... unless, that is, the City agrees that all the deficiencies MMPI identified qualify as "necessary" repairs, which I doubt it does.  The City will make it a "safe" building.... nothing more.

 

that pretty much the way I read it.

"What is your beef with the Mayor?  Are you a tax paying citizen of Cleveland?"

 

Currently a taxpayer of the City of Seattle.  Taxpayer of the City of Cleveland from 1970-1985.  The Mayor is the right man at the wrong time.  Good at balancing the books, bad at the "vision thing" and totally lacking in business acumen, contacts, etc.  He would be OK in a booming economy with the right economic development czar.  He is not what Cleveland needs at this time. 

 

P.S. I am a very poor speller, grammar not so bad!

 

"What is your beef with the Mayor?  Are you a tax paying citizen of Cleveland?"

 

Currently a taxpayer of the City of Seattle.  Taxpayer of the City of Cleveland from 1970-1985.  The Mayor is the right man at the wrong time.  Good at balancing the books, bad at the "vision thing" and totally lacking in business acumen, contacts, etc. He would be OK in a booming economy with the right economic development czar.  He is not what Cleveland needs at this time. 

 

P.S. I am a very poor speller, grammar not so bad!

 

 

::)

Folks, the county commissioners are lame ducks (remember the voting results for Issue 6?) and will be out of the discussion in about a month.

 

Aren't they going to be running the county until Jan 1 2011?  I know their political careers are in doubt, but can they really just disappear with 400 days left of office?

Is it too late to build a Med Mart/Convention Center behind Tower City, next to the casino?

 

Destroying Mall C and leaving Public Auditorium to rot just isn't worth it.

 

Maybe $1 billion in development along Ontario and Huron wouldn't be such a bad thing...