Here are some numbers that I received in December about the project:

 

455 residential units

280,000 sq ft of retail space

800,000 sq ft of office space

2k parking spaces

2.5 acres of park space

 

That sure is a lot of office space!!

 

Sounds to me like Lighthouse Landing has been incorporated into Wolstein's plan. Nancy Lesic (Wolstein's PR guru) told me that the development team hadn't decided whether to make LL office or keep it as two residential towers. Sounds like they're splitting the difference??

Let's say there was 1 space for each housing unit:

 

1 x 455 = 455

 

Now, parking standards for retail in Cleveland are a bit ridiculous, so let's tone them down a little to 20 spaces for every 10,000 sq. ft:

 

20 x 28 = 560

 

Office space?  I don't know, maybe the same ratio (I'm making this up as I go along):

 

20 x 80 = 1,600

 

That number represents one space for every 3 workers, if the above space estimates per employee are correct.

 

That makes a total of 2,615 parking spaces, which is 30% more than they're proposing with the numbers we're seeing here.  I agree that 2,000 sounds like too much, but it is probably far less than they would be permitted to provide or than would be customary for a project built in this city.  So, let's see where they're going to put it and if they can tuck it away somewhere behind townhouses or retail or use it as a buffer from the busy railroad tracks to the north, then it might just be OK. 

Flats property owners are appealing the Planning Commission's Dec. 15 approval of the demolition of their buildings....

 

http://planning.city.cleveland.oh.us/bza/agenda/crr02-05-07.htm

 

9:30    Ward 13

Appeal of Flats Waterfront  Associates, et al   

Calendar No. 07-7: Joe Cimperman

 

Flats Waterfront Associates, East Riverfront Properties Limited Partnership, Prime Properties Limited Partnership, 1124 Old River Road Limited Partnership, Cuyahoga Lakefront LLC, K&S Parking Co., Inc., George-Khouri Family Limited Partnership, #1 Media, Old River Road Cleveland LLC, HDV-Cleveland LLC, MSGG-Cleveland LLC, Droe Express System, Inc. and 1146 Old River Road, Inc., by and through their respective counsel, appeal under the authority of Section 76-6(b) of the Charter of the City of Cleveland and Section 329.02(d) of the Cleveland Codified Ordinances from the decision of the City of Cleveland Planning Commission to approve the Flats East Bank Redevelopment Demolition Request rendered on December 15, 2006. (Filed 1-17-07)

I also heard that the ED proceedings have been pushed back to March.

^That is what the Probate Court docket indicates.  This is the second trial continuance.

sucks.

sucks.

 

What sucks?  The pushback date or the amount of planned parking spaces?!

I'm seeing again that they are listing 455 unites of housing. This is quite a jump from the original number of 330.

(cough -- Lighthouse Landing -- cough). Excuse me, this cold, dry air is really getting to me.  :-D

^Cool.

 

I actually re-read the Lighthouse Landing thread after seeing Wimwar's post earlier today.  I think the original plans were for ~250 units?  But it looks like 125 are being added.  Does this mean only 1 of the 2 Lighthouse Landing towers will be built?  Or only 1 will be residential and the other office?  I suppose that they probably don't want to announce any of this until ED proceedings are over. 

Flats Property Owners Lose Eminent Domain Appeal

 

POSTED: 12:45 pm EST February 5, 2007

UPDATED: 12:59 pm EST February 5, 2007

 

CLEVELAND -- There's a new development in the ongoing battle over property in the Flats.

 

Thirteen owners of bars, restaurants and parking lots have lost another appeal to stop the demolition.

 

On Monday, city officials said no to stopping eminent domain on the Flat's east bank.

 

Cuyahoga County Port Authority and builder Scott Wolstein plan to redevelop the area but remaining business owners said they're not being treated fairly and are not getting fair offers for their businesses.

The Lighthouse Landing plans were really cool!  The way they layed out the project made a lot of sense.  But since that site is very big, I wouldn't be surprised if Wolstein increases the density.  He may want to add more stuff (retail, parking, housing, office) than the Shaia's had planned.  Can't wait to see!!

The Lighthouse Landing plans were really cool!  The way they layed out the project made a lot of sense.  But since that site is very big, I wouldn't be surprised if Wolstein increases the density.  He may want to add more stuff (retail, parking, housing, office) than the Shaia's had planned.  Can't wait to see!!

 

why would you want to see MORE parking?  There is a rapid transit line adjacent to this and why do people who live in the center of the city need more parking.  I dont want to hear excuse about those driving in to work, now is the time to condition them to use public transportation.

That news blurb is very confusing.  I am guessing (and just guessing at this point without having done further research) that what this is referencing is that an administrative appeal by the property owners of the Planning Commission's green light allowing demolition of certain buildings owned by Wolstein has been denied.  This aspect of the  "drama" really has nothing to do with the eminent domain action (which still has not been tried so how can there be an appeal).

^are you sure. I read it the opposite way.  In December, Wolstein applied for and was granted permission to start demo. These 13 land owners banded together, appealed that decision and lost the appeal yesterday.

To start demo on the land Wolstein already controlled though, which would have nothing to do with the Eminent Domain proceedings, since in December and now, they do not controll the land in question. 

Wimwar, I think we are on the same page, I just was not very articulate (which is ironic since I felt the news blurb lacked clarity).  Again I am guessing that the property owners lost the administrative appeal.  They were objecting to the city's permission to allow the demolition of the buildings currently owned by Wolstein.  Since they lost the appeal, Wolstein can begin demolition.  Again my point is that this really does not have anything to do with the eminent domain proceedings which continue to drag on.

 

I am really not up on the procedure so I am wondering if the property owners can continue to appeal the decision, perhaps to the Common Pleas court.  I know appeals of decisions by state administrative agencies go that route.  Again I am not sure if this is the end of the road (as far as the demolition issue is concerned) or whether the property owners (who have not been shy in doing what ever it takes to pursue their agenda, what ever that may really be...they have to be spending a fortune in legal fees) can still seek review.  My best guess is that they can appeal further but again, not quite sure.  Does anybody know?

and the owners in the ED proceedings don't want any buildings torn down b/c ultimatley that hurts their case that this is not a blighted neighborhood, etc.

now that the appeal has been denied, any word on when demo would begin?

I am really not up on the procedure so I am wondering if the property owners can continue to appeal the decision, perhaps to the Common Pleas court.

 

Good question. I'm pretty sure that you can take it over to Common Pleas, but is it an appeal as of right?  I'm assuming that they'd need an injunction to stop the demo. I glanced throught civ pro rules, but its hard to pick out the rules for administrative courts.

^ Wow, this would be a great time for the PD to actually follow-up on news!

Or the Sun, which I did earlier today. No demolition permits have been pulled yet. But that should happen VERY soon.

 

But I found out something much more interesting. Like, the merging of Flats East Bank and Lighthouse Landing. The paperwork should have been signed today, but there were some minor text glitches that needed correcting. So it's safe to safe they are literally dotting the i's and crossing the t's.

That's great news! Great to see that Wolstein saw the value in merging the projects.

I Lighthouse Landing going to be pretty much the same as Shia envisioned, or are there going to be substantial revisions?

According to a second-hand source, Wolstein said he liked the original plan for LL. While the first phase would still be the residential tower, Wolstein will market the second tower to any potential user -- be it residential, office or even hotel. I don't have too many details yet, and probably won't until the paperwork is signed.

Heard from Nancy Lesic this morning regarding the demolition work. Crews and equipment should start appearing in the Flats in about a week and start demolitions before the end of February.

^ Yeah damn right baby! Let the party begin!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Yes!!!  That's great news KJP, I can't wait to see some progress with this project.

Best news downtown's had in a while.  I positively love the awesome adaptive reuse work we've been doing in the WHD and in Gateway... But our downtown sorely needs to mix in some new construction, esp high-rises.  I liked Wolstein's original project.  That Lighthouse Landing's high-rises are, now, going to be a part of it, is stunning.

 

Now, w/ the 1,000 unit, for-sale, expansion to occur across the river at Stonebridge, the Flats is going to rise as though a new city.  I miss, like hell, the old Flats, no doubt and that funky, warehouse, Bourbon Street-by-the-water will be gone forever... But this new, more permanent Flats, with thousands and thousands of new residents (and their friends -- as in, UOers) milling about at restaurants and retail, bodes for a much stronger, healthier Flats of the future.

Won't this look pretty next to (er, part of) Flats East Bank?

 

 

Street-level uses (below the towers).....

 

^YES!!!!

 

I think even the sight of all this construction (and the neighborhoods created as a result) will give people that don't have them, more positive feelings about where the city is headed.

Cool..  Thanks for posting KJP.  Havent seen that rendering yet.

Exciting stuff, and really glad to hear it will be incorporated. 

I have some cool quotes in an article in tomorrow's West Side Sun about the merging of the two projects, but the article didn't end up on the front page like I had hoped. Cimperman's quote was the funniest.

I will be coming back to Cleveland tomorrow, so I will be able to pick it up!

So right now we don't know if the taller tower will be residential or what is that correct?

(LL) While the first phase would still be the residential tower, Wolstein will market the second tower to any potential user -- be it residential, office or even hotel.

 

I'd love a hotel in one of the towers.  This would enhance the probability of more diverse, spin-off retail in the immediate area.

So right now we don't know if the taller tower will be residential or what is that correct?

 

One of the towers will be residential. Don't know if it's the taller or shorter one yet.

(LL) While the first phase would still be the residential tower, Wolstein will market the second tower to any potential user -- be it residential, office or even hotel.

 

I'd love a hotel in one of the towers.  This would enhance the probability of more diverse, spin-off retail in the immediate area.

 

That would be the perfect place for a W Hotel - Cleveland in the Warehouse District!

KJP-just curious, did you kinow about this for quite a while? and is this possibly the 'big' project that has been hinted to you by other sources?

Yes, I've known this was in the works for some time. Cimperman first told me about it in December, so I called Shaia and he confirmed it but asked me not to publish anything yet. He also asked me to call him back in two weeks, which I did. There still wasn't a deal. I called Nancy Lesic to see what Wolstein's development team was willing to say. She said there was a joint development being pursued for the site but there were no specifics yet.

 

I sat on the story for another month or so. When news of the demolition appeal by 13 Flats property owners was turned down, I called Lesic back to find out when demolition would start. She wasn't in so I left a message. Since I was planning on writing an article about the Flats East Bank anyway, I called Shaia on Tuesday to see if there was anything new on his end. He said the paperwork to close the deal was sent to him earlier that day but there were minor wording issues to resolve. He said the deal could be done in days but couldn't release its details.

 

Well, since Sun is a weekly and the PD is a daily, and if the paperwork was signed this week, it wouldn't be until next Thursday before I could have anything published on it. The PD might scoop me on a story I've sat on for more than two months.

 

And, no, this is not the "big" project that's been hinted to me. Turns out there's a couple of downtown projects that are in the hopper. I now know what one of them is -- let's see if anyone here remembers "Gray's Green."

Well KJP, we'll all remember we heard it first from you here! 

Also "Grays Green"  hmmm something to do with Grays Armory maybe...?

Is that article available on line?  I couldn't find it in the Sun section of Cleveland.com...

Grays Green would have been some sort of project connecting Playhouse Square to Gateway, right?

Also "Grays Green"   hmmm something to do with Grays Armory maybe...?

Grays Green would have been some sort of project connecting Playhouse Square to Gateway, right?

 

Give those guys see-gars! I probably shouldn't say much more in case the PD or Crain's is reading this. Besides, the Gray's Green discussion belongs in a new thread anyway.

 

Map Boy killed Mister Good Day? Booo!  :x

Ok, so create it!  And let's start digging for the project's history in preparation for its resurrection!

 

Nice article, BTW.  Joe C  :fight: Shaia

 

And MGD ain't dead...he's just resting in peace!

Has there been discussion of height restrictions along the waterfront?

 

Like most, I love reading about Lighthouse Landing and all of the possibilities for new development. Though I am a little worried that in the future, tall buildings might crowd out and cast shadows all along the lake and river.

 

In my opinion the best coastal areas restrict heights along the shoreline to approx. 3-4 floors. I am not sure Cleveland should emulate Chicago by building tall straight up to the waters edge-  they have many more beaches and parks than we do. At any rate, lets hope for quality buildings with well thought out planning.

 

p.s.I would love if Wolstein and others would emulate the distinctly northern/coastal look in these pics:

 

http://www.theoceanblue.com/jpgs/cds/denmark.jpg

 

http://www.nbportal.com/travel-destinations/denmark/

Did you simply mean the scale of the structures in those photos?  If so, I agree.  If not...

Please, no more neo classical, fake corniced buildings.  We have plenty of those to go around in the suburbs.  We need progressive ideas to shape the aesthetics of our city.  Europeans wouldn't dare try to replicate those structures on those websites from the above reply.  Why are Americans so obsessed with trying to make things look old.  We certainly wouldn't want to use a computer or an automobile with 19th century technology in our day to day lives, so why would you want our cities and dwellings to appear old?

This city needs to define its point in history now, not fake something from 150 years ago.

^I agree - scalewise, that's probably ideal for the location. However, putting up faux-Colonial, faux-Classical, faux-any historic architecture that's already been done would be a huge mistake.

 

There's one thing I'd like to see in and around the Flats, should the concrete companies decide to relocate. Rather than demo'ing the silos, they could be reused as awesome (and solid as heck) residential projects. Here's a pic from the Terminal Tower of one such silo:

 

 

The rounded building in the center is an example of how that could work (from staff on the skyscraperpage.com forum):

 

^ those are quite nice and airy. funny what a little variety, glass and making the building white can do to brighten things up. still, these remind me of stonebridge in that there is nothing going on at ground level. we gotta have ground level retail etc action too.

I meant to show the building's, scale wise. I don't think any new architecture should be cheap reminders of classic architecture. But I hope they somehow integrate with the classic, nautical feel of the old Flats. They did an excellent job of this in Fells Point, integrateing old and new.

 

MayDay I love the silo idea. Though I agree with mrnyc about needing ground level presence. That's killing me with Stonebridge!

 

I think the very best thing Wolstein can do is open up the lakefront and riverfront with a boardwalk. Since the closing of Euclid Beach Park, Cleveland has been missing that one magnetic place for people to congregate. Imagine thousands of residents and visitors alike walking along a lively waterfront...

 

http://www.beach-net.com/ImgOCboards.JPEG