I wonder how much of the projects price tag is things like the public boardwalk and reconfigured streets and sewers.  The earlier articles say they are looking for $20M from the city for stuff like that

Does anyone have any idea if there are firm commitments from a bookstore, movie theater, or grocer yet?  If that were the case, I'd sign up right now.  I can't wait until they announce the details of the project, this could be incredible.  I still think that mixing in boutique hotels would make the area even more incredible.

absolutely!  and I really can't wait to hear about all the possible retailers...hold your breath for monday!

it sounds better than a lifestyle center... lol

 

i wonder if this will help spark some other projects like district park and the proposed W9th tower across the street.  this is definately going to link the WD to the Flats and its RIGHT on the WL so its a perfect transit oritented development as well.  i wonder how that will look from the WL since right about there is where the train elevates up.  i could see them adding another station too

Stonebridge also has just over 300 units, I believe, and you see how huge that project is.  And it includes a small amount of office and commercial, too -- and this is expanding.   Wolstein's tipping a lot toward commercial -- I too am a bit taken by the inflation from $170 to $230M since December -- maybe that's good.  I'm not quite sure of the physical parameters, but I don't think, at this time, it will extend north of the Waterfront Rapid line (onto P.A. land) at this time.  This project should spin-off development -- although let's not count on too much, this is a slow developing town that is not prone to multi-unit development on a large scale.   Don't forget, the handsome Riverbend condo's been there since the early 1980s.  We're not like D.C., Chicago or Toronto where they throw up huge developments at the drop of a hat.  One disturbing note is I think Wolstein is oriented toward bulldozing all the storefronts on Old River, which would be too bad.  While some of its junk, there’s a good deal of unique, historic architecture there.  It would tend to presage the more boring, bland stuff like that in Baltimore’s Harborplace/Inner Harbor (gag).

 

My biggest hope is that this development, whatever form it shall eventually take (and will probably evolve significantly from what's on paper, now -- that's the way development is), that it is a more substantial/permanent revival of the East Bank into something more than the fly-by-night bars and restaurants of the 1980s/90s -- by all accounts, it will be.  Maybe, just maybe, this will generate more daytime foot traffic than exists right now (which is close to nil) And I hope that and expect the Waterfront Line will reap the traffic benefits, so its naysayers will shut the hell up and go away once and for all.   :-D

 

And let’s hope this will spell bye-bye to all that surface parking behind the building lines and the Waterfront Rapid.  (btw – surface parking just grew in the area as the derelict, though fixable, buildings next to/behind the Flat Iron Café were torn down a month or so ago – double damn!  :whip:

 

I've got the feeling this development will be compact with a lot of density, which will be good.  We'll learn more Monday, I guess, when Wolstein, Jane & co plan to go on a splashy media blitz.

 

Answers part of my question (from the PD site): Location: north from Main Avenue to the Norfolk Southern railroad tracks and between West 10th Street and the east bank of the Cuyahoga River

 

One big negative: I hear a chunk of $$ for this is coming from our already starving school system -- that really stinks, indeed.  Kinda curbs a bit of my enthusiasm.

I guess the boundaries are a little smaller than I had previously expected.  And I didn't realize it entailed demolition of existing "historic" structures.  Though, if we want public access to the waterfront, I guess there's no choice....

 

I'm excited to see this spill over (eventually) to north of the Norfolk Southern tracks.  There was a plan several years back for a World Trade Center of Cleveland office complex & hotel that included building over the Waterfront Line and featured a new station inside the complex.  I'm assuming this has been dead for years, but it demonstrates that the potential for an additional station is pretty reasonable.

 

Can't wait for monday!

Most of the Historic stuctures are on the other side of Old River Road.  I hope some of them can be incorporated, especially the old Kindler's (I can't remember what it is now).

 

The WTC on the Waterfront Line site is dead, but I've seen rumors recently of a potential Gateway site.

Eventually, MGD, plans call for development north of the NS tracks as part of the Harborplace development, but I'm wondering whether more brownfields clean-up money will be needed for that parcel -- if I'm not wrong, $1M in such funds have been allocated for cleanup of the area Wolstein now plans to develop...

 

Also, you’re right about adding a Waterfront Line stop on that elevated portion of tracks -- space for such was provided (the embankment widens allowing for potential train platforms in that area) for a station, originally, for a proposed Great Lakes Aquarium that sadly was never built -- slated to be, I think, just north of the tracks.  It's very likely that RTA will revisit building a stop there with this new development which will give the development extremely intimate rail service -- much like that in Shaker Square...

 

Also, I agree with X -- there are a lot of interesting, historic facades along ORR that I hope Wolstein incorporates into the project rather than bulldozes.  Sadly, if I recall, his original stated intentions were to clear the area entirely and build anew... this wouldn't be good imho.

 

Regarding the facades, I like the building where the Harvard brewhouse once was.  But, I think that we need to put things in perspective.  I don't love that they will tear down some old buildings, but I view it as a necessary evil  From what I've heard, the streets will be reconfigured.  The locations of the existing structures are not situated in accord with the plans.  This project needs to be done right.  It can really boost the warehouse district and it can spur development of the port land to the north.  If the right retailers can be enticed, such as a bookstore, I think that demand will really rise for the housing units.  I am very excited to see this.  However, it looks like everything is far from done.  All the land is yet to be amassed. That can be a very elongated process.

I'm worried that, as always seems to happen in this town, we will get as far as demolishing the really nice historic buildings and then the project will stall and we'll be left with nothing.  I've been feeling really pessimistic lately, I guess.

I think the reason the price has escalated is due to rising steel and wood prices.

God help us indeed.  I would like not to see eminent domain used, nasty thing that is, abuse of property rights.

It sounds like he is ready to deal if the price is right, but I agree with Ferrari, we cant use eminent domain.

Sometimes we have a very skewed version of property rights.  If one man's right to property hurts a city's ability to provide for its citizens, then we have a system that fails.  This summer's supreme court case will be very interesting.  That one seems abusive, while Cleveland's case would pale in comparision. 

If the price is right?  The problem is that landowners like George get very greedy and demand much more than their property is really worth.  Let's just hope that he takes the higher road.

My third consecutive post..

 

Is there any engineering issues at play here?  How high can you build on land that is so close to the rigver and lake?  Also, is the land north of the tracks reclaimed?

Breaking your string wimwar.

Yes, all downtown land north of the tracks has been reclaimed. There are old pictures that show the railroad tracks hugging the shoreline. But don't take my word for it. Here's a picture from the 1890s, showing the downtown lakefront. In the background are the old Lakeside Hospitals, between what is now East 9th and East 12th streets....

 

 

KJP

The Flats are the original settlement area in Cleveland.  They have basically been developed since the Moses set anchor.  During the late nineteenth century and early twentieth, various refineries and other industries sat where bars and warehouse would later come.  The land beneath those bars is a little dirty...to say the least. 

When are the plans for the Flats development supposed to be released?

It's what you've been waiting for!

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Views from the site:

 

 

 

Quite a crowd showed up:

 

Some of the highlights:

 

The glassy building closest to the lake is a proposal for the DFAS offices. I guess high rent was cited as a reason for closing the Cleveland center *however* that rent was set by the Feds (another branch, that is). They are going to appeal the recommendation by offering the new structure (400K sq. ft.) as a site for DFAS.

 

I noticed that parking is limited to one surface lot, and garages under the townhouses on the northern section of the site.

 

Utilities will be buried and/or concealed.

 

 

MayDay and I went down to the press release at 11:30 a.m. today.  We both took photos of the renderings (there were only a few), but I don't have a way to upload them from my camera until I get home, I imagine MayDay will beat me to the punch, anyway.

 

The design by Forum Architects (never heard of 'em) is okay, lots of 4-ish story red brick buildings with lighter yellowish brick on the top floor, some skylights.  Nothing mindblowing, but nothing awful, either.  It kind of reminds me of a new urban college campus.  One thing I like is a semicircular marina/plaza located about where Dick's Last Resort is.  Kind of an shallow ampitheater facing the river.

 

They also had in one rendering about a 400,000-450,000 sq-ft building where the Cleveland World Trade Center proposal from a few years back would have gone, just inside that strange peninsula of land made by the Waterfront Line, north of the main Wolstein proposal.  Apparently, that is a part they're adding for that Defense Accounting (or whatever) group that was just announced is leaving Cleveland.  They are hoping to house all 1,000 of those people in this building, if the gov't. will reconsider moving the jobs out of town.

 

Holy crap, you beat me to it as I was typing!  :)

Thank you so much for taking time out of your day to go down there and take pictures of these proposals.  :clap: I was pretty impressed with the pictures. I really like how they will incorporate retail and residential. Was there any news on when construction was going to start? I was really happy to hear that they have a plan for DFAS, hopefully they reconsider moving the jobs out-of-town. My favorite part was the marina/plaza. It kind of looks like if this project is successful that it can spread to the other side of the bridge.

oooo nice!

May Day you are the Freakin' MAN!!! 

Forum Architects are architects forumly...get it...known as GSI. 

before I read Paul's comments I was going to write Holy Crap myself.  I really did not imagine that this development would transform the entire area!

 

Even if that DFAS isnt built, it would be nice to have an office building with direct RTA access.

 

Is that surface lot behind the development the spot where district park will go?

 

No, the District Park site is located to the right of the proposed 'bookstore' site, and across West 10th from the existing RTA Station.

Small footprint but hey its something to get teh ball rolling.

That may be one of the most beautiful developements to ever hit the inner-city.

Wolstein announces Flats plan

 

 

By STAN BULLARD

 

Updated 4:15 p.m.

 

Wolstein Group today announced its plans for the "Flats East Bank Neighborhood," a $225 million residential and retail complex that would transform the dilapidated — but key — part of the Flats at the north end of Old River Road between Main Avenue and the CSX railroad tracks.

 

The plan calls for 330 residential units and 250,000 square feet of entertainment and retail space. Old River Road would be relocated slightly east and the riverside would be reshaped with a waterfront promenade and marina. It is the largest private real estate project proposed since 1988 in downtown Cleveland.

 

More at crainscleveland.com http://www.crainscleveland.com

OK, not to throw rain on anyone's parade here, but what is the caliber of the existing building stock in the redevelopment area?  Not knowing the area really well, and relying on the aerial view in a recent post, it appears that there might be 19th century commercial buildings on site.  What are we talking here?

 

Reason -- we are getting ready to review nominations for Ohio's Most Endangered Historic Sites -- and while we have a Cleveland nomination (Cozad-Bates house near University Circle), is this something we should also consider?

 

Don't get me wrong -- I understand that the loss of historic building stock is necessary sometimes to generate economic development to save a larger, more complete set of buildings -- is that what is going on here?

 

Any insights on to what is there now?  Thanks!

A big thank you to you guys for the effort for these pictures  :clap:

 

The "project" looks great to me.  There's plenty of public space, and Wolstein's comments in the PD article show that he has a vision for this place - neighborhood first.

 

BTW, The Stonebridge project on the west bank looks great in those pictures. 

 

One thing though - Anyone else think the noise from the trains will be a problem for some of the residential units?

 

Today is a good day for Cleveland - lets hope it all pans out.

First, a reply to the last post...I just spent a morning touring a new building here in Manhattan that sits not only above Houston, 2nd Ave, and the Bowery (all VERY busy streets), but also above 4 subway lines.  We were in the building for about 2 hours and the only time I heard traffic was when we were on the sidewalk and the subway when we were in the basement, checking out the pool!  We commented on this to the developer and he said it was a welcome side-effect of the materials that they used in conforming with NYC energy and building codes.  Thick glass and sturdy supports and walls...higher cost, but far better product.

 

Next, my reaction to the images and article:  I like the plan, the scale, the public space, and especially the ideology...  And my only comment about the article?  2009??? WTF???  Can we not build faster than that?  Maybe they're talking about opening it it phases...but come on...four years if they break ground this year???

Great job MayDay! you could show Cleve.com a thing or 2 (as of 6:30p they STILL hadn't posted anything and I’m sure it won’t match what you’ve posted)...  I am very excited about this and hope our public officials stay on task to get this thing through w/o major battles.

 

Now for the sour note -- call me wet blanket #2: as nice as this more permanent, high-density development makes perfect sense, I can't but feel sadness that the old East Bank will be snuffed in this development.  The exciting old Flats that helped make us one of the nation's top summer pleasure destinations, will be no more.  As nice as this new stuff looks, it kinda screams: Joe Typical Waterfront Development -- really no different from a lot of cities including, now, Zinzinnati.  As honky-tonk and rundown as the old E. Bank was, this aspect was also its charm.  It had a certain raunchy edginess that sucked people in.  -- I've always disliked plastic joints like Fisherman's Warf, or NY's South St Seaport or (double-ugh!) Baltimore's faux nautical Inner Harbor.  But this is what we're getting.  I just wish that when the Flat's was still hot, we could have meshed in much of these projected buildings behind the building line of ORR bars and restaurants that made the Flats what it was.  We could’ve had our cake and eat it too… Why did it have to die first before we did the right thing? A truly special part of Cleveland is gone forever.

 

BTW, re the RR: if the impressive drawings are true, it appears that the residential units will both be on a rise a level higher than the NS railroad tracks as well has have their backs to the tracks (and be slightly separated from them by small rear lots).  I would assume, also, that these units will be thoroughly soundproofed – I’m sure the units backing up toward the tracks will be markedly cheaper.  But the rumble of those heavyweights will, I'm sure rattle, a piece of china ware here and there, regardless of soundproofing...

 

Also, I do like the office building directly connect by the Waterfront Line – which will finally get the ridership boost its always deserved.  Hopefully this office building will be built even if the DFAS isn't saved.  And as far as our prospect for saving it?  My formula, unfortunately, is

 

  Kucinich + Tubbs-Jones + Campbell x Dubya = No Way Jose!

 

I'm disappointed.  I don't think that the architecture or layout of this development pays any attention to the geography, history, or unique identity that the flats possesses.  This could have been built anywhere.  It is, indeed, "Crocker Park in the City". 

 

Sorry, I've just been very pessimistic lately.  But that's how I feel finally seeing this.

MGD, I was put off by the 2009 open date, too... maybe its the brownfield clieanup work to preceed it that will slow things down.

i wonder if it will be built in phases though...  it looks as thought it very well could

Ok, I could accept the brownfield remediation excuse, but it's not like there wasn't stuff on here already...I suppose it's better to get 'er done right, though, rather than finding out in 20 years that the thing is sliding into the Cuyahoga or that radiation has been soaking up through the beams for two decades.  As for phases...that would be ok, I guess, but it's no larger than Crocker park's initial opening section, right?  Why couldn't it all be done at once? 

 

One exciting bit to think about, though, is that by 2007/8, there may be new ground struck to the north, east, and west...the towpath trail could be further north by then...the Browns could be winning...possibilities galore!

 

And on the subject of the "every day riverfront development" feeling of this project, I have a couple comments.  One, I think this one has the potential, with the boardwalk and the plaza and the size of the river, to be much more intimately tied to the water.  The buildings sort of hug the curve and the promenade definitely does.  As for the architecture, we don't know yet what it's going to look like...materials, design, etc...I'm pretty sure these pics are all just concepts.  And finally, I'm envisioning this more like Tribeca than South Street Seaport...SSS is an outdoor mall...this will be different.  (fingers tightly crossed!)

wow thanks for putting up the renderings you guys. thats a lotta nice work.

 

my initial impressions? somewhat disappointed. it seems rush rushed. i thought ok office park with the second rendering and then, oh man, pj's with the third -- ha!

 

also, i immediately fretted over the loss of kindler's, the oldest bar in the city, and the original rockefeller warehouse, i wish they could be saved, but that is impossible with this kind of rather uninspired clearcut thinking. i say uninspired because it looks like similar stuff you see going up recently in other cities. realize this tears the visually unique heart out of the flats.

 

howevvvvvver, i am very happy and excited about it and glad wolstein is in the lead, true clevelanders with cleveland at heart.  go figure, right? the positives far far outweigh the workmanlike architectural blandness. anything with residential over retail, amenities and density like that is superb in my book. also, the new public boardwalk looks....not unsafe! ha! that will be fun.

 

alright so whats the 'real' timeline? when can they get cracking and get some shovels in the ground? 2009 seems like a long time to build those?

 

oh yeah, the dfas structure is a bonus imo, fingers crossed there. something will surely go there soon anyway if this is built.

 

 

 

yeah, about that boardwalk...it's funny to think of those benches just looking over at a whole lotta nothing...I hope there's a sea of construction cranes over the river by the time people are sitting down to relax by the riverside!

 

Next, the old post and heavy chain routine...is that still the standard?  I know the majority of North Coast Harbor has this design, but is it the best idea for a potentially crowded boardwalk?  I'm sure we're due for a lot more design, but I'd like to see something more along the lines of a handsome 4-foot iron fence that you can lean up against without fear of falling into a river that could catch fire at any moment!

 

and what about a connection to the future Whiskey Island park???  something across the rail bridge perhaps?  Portland Steel Bridge is the same sort of lift bridge and it accommodates commercial and amtrak rail and has a great pedestrian component to it that connects two riverfront parks.  how 'bout it?

I am very excited about the design.  There are many more city blocks than the existing East Bank has.  This creates for some potentially lively streets.  Also, I like the area along the river.  The present configuration blocks river views and does not allow pedestrians to meander along the riverbanks.  I wish that the boardwalk could be connected to Settler's Landing and then over to the Towpath.  This would be fantastic.

 

I miss the old Flats.  But, it was a formula that didn't work anymore.  I enjoyed its heyday, but we have to recreate ourselves if the status quo is sinking fast. 

 

On the timeline: all the land is yet to be acquired.  If eminent domain must be used, it could be a lengthy procedure.  Also, funding is not secured.  I can see why it will take awhile.  I highly doubt that they will break ground this year.  Once they do, it shouldn't take four years to complete, unless leasing and condo sales lag.  But, I think that this project will have the fastest sale compared to other downtown condos.  It will be a dynamic area with narrow streets, river views, and good retail.   

Anyone else notice the parks on the roofs of the buildings?

 

"what is the caliber of the existing building stock in the redevelopment area?  Not knowing the area really well..."

 

Here are some links to images of the existing building stock. Quite frankly, it's not much to write home about. I'm also a preservationist at heart but the loss of the buildings in question wouldn't warrant any alarms.

http://www.placesintown.com/cleveland/cleveland_flats5_lg.jpg

http://www.placesintown.com/cleveland/cleveland_flats1_lg.jpg

 

The big problem with the East Bank as it is now is that those buildings block all public access to the riverfront. Unless you're a patron and able to access one of the decks/patios (and given how many places are closed, that's not easy to do), they block some of the best views of the river/lake. In many cases, the decks aren't connected so pedestrian traffic along the river is hampered. Oh and don't forget the lovely parking lot RIGHT on the river.

 

"realize this tears the visually unique heart out of the flats."

 

Hardly - look at the aerial and compare it to the site plan - a major component of this project is being built on what? What's that? A parking lot! Correct me if I'm wrong - we've all been chanting "build infill on the parking lots!" A small strip of bland brick buildings (remember, we are hardly talking about buildings like the Hoyt and Bradley Buildings in the HWD) that have outlived their usefulness many times over are not the "visually unique" heart of the Flats. The Flats are the river, the bridges, the lake, the leisure boats, the ore freighters - and those aren't going anywhere.

 

 

As long as the building don't taper inwards towards the bottom like in the third picture I say good stuff.  Wolsteins can have the east bank, Stark gets the WHD, Ratners get TowerCity/Scranton/whatever else.  Lewis I guess gets University Circle, now only to lure Jacobs out of his "estate planning."  Who did I leave out?  Ahh yes the Lerners... and then on to our out of towners Quicken loans guy, Gund, and so on and so forth.

If this project goes through, it looks to have some nice spin off potential. 

 

1. Going down Old River Road towards Settler's Landing.  I am not sure how much vacany there is, but that is a nice road that could really be helped along by this project.

 

2. Along west 10th---the huge surface lot just north of the Main Ave bridge would be a nice spot for residential tower, a la district park.  Also, this could help encourage the resurrection of District Park.  I would like to see some pedestrian corridor go through the District Park site in order to help connect the East Bank to the WHD.  Presently, St. Claire is the only viable way into the Flats.  Main Ave's stretch underneath the main Ave bridge is way too gloomy. 

The whole problem with "entertainment districts", in my opinion, is 1) they only generate revenue for part of the day (after the sun goes down), 2) they are at the mercy of other factors such as the public's surplus disposable income for drinks, winning sports teams to draw crowds, warm weather to keep crowds moving, etc.) 

 

The overall residential component breaths real life to the project. It is futher enhanced by public transportation and its connectivity to neighborhoods such as Warehouse Dist and Ohio City/Tremont/Duck Island/Scranton Rd., Quay 55, and Gateway.

 

Finally, an entertainment district along Cleveland's waterfronts could always occur along the lake to the north on the Port Authority's land (around Cle. Browns Stadium) or to expand along the parking lot on the West Bank.  But, I don't think it is that important to use waterfront land for bars. 

^It is mixed use.  There is more than nightlife incorporated.  There are offices for the daytime benifit, restaurants for the nighttime benifit and housing for the 24/7 benifit.  That is the whole idea of mixed use....making money at all hours of the day.