I'm skeptical of having tall buildings on the waterfront. Wouldn't they cast a lot of shadows? I'm thinking that in a weather challenged city like Cleveland you would want as much natural sunlight as possible in the Flats and Lakefront.

The official word about Progressive from Peter B. Lewis' spokesperson was that "It was a business decision made by the Board of Directors when Al Lerner was chairman." Now, I'm sure that there are plenty of bullet points that led to that decision but all I'm saying is that's the "official" statement.

 

pope, Stern has worked on the following:

 

Youngstown's Federal Courthouse:

 

Philadelphia's Comcast Center (image from phillyskyline.com):

 

And NYC's 15 Central Park West:

 

Stern's work isn't the most envelope pushing, but they're generally high-quality (unlike some PoMo types).

 

I mean I can't imagine the crap that would be built on the mall, if both of those companies would have been allowed to proceed.  it wouldn't fit in with Music Hall/Public Hall and (probably) would have make the Mall a dark dreary space.

 

Pretty sre the Progressive tower would have been on a deck over the tracks north of the Mall, not on the mall itself.  Would have been a nice counterpart to the height of the Key tower south of the mall.

 

MayDay, didn't RTKL design the Tower City Ritz and Sklylight office tower?  Not sure why that sticks in my head.

^You're correct, RTKL designed both.

i'll say this about stern, the 15 cpw project is one of the best going on in the city in terms of fit. they are actually building a modern pre-war throwback residential building, which i would have thought impossible. i really like it a lot. so i hope that translates to good news for the flats. check out this nice review on triplemint blog (quote: "Overall this is a skillfully designed love letter to New York."):

 

http://www.triplemint.com/triplemint/2005/10/15_cpw.html

I face this building and have watched it go up.  Our building actually made this development possible.  The price point is sky high and on the inside the quality doesn't quite match the exterior work.  When I was at the sales office snopping around, Denzel Washington just purchased a unit and he told me that building was 80% sold out at that time.  I think Rod Stewart also bought a place.

 

I do have to say, as previously mentioned, the new building is built prewar style to match the previous smaller structure.  the unit floor plans are layed out, they are built "old school" style.  I viewed this apartment http://www.15cpw.com/7-11C.pdf  which put me in the frame of mind of my apartment on the Square.  I love how you must go from room to room - none of that "open floor plan" or "grand room" crap! 

 

The big plus is the views.

 

Although, completely sold out I could never afford to buy a unit AND pay the association fees, but hell if you have 4-5 Mil lyin' around, for a one bedroom...knock yourself out!

While taking context into consideration is certainly important, Stern's design solutions generally look as though he purposely creates a situation where you don't even know it's there.  It's simply non-descript, uninspired architecture.  Not really a concept that should permiate through the Flats.

A city is a lot like an orchestra.  One wouldn't want 150 soloists or "starchitects"- that wouldn't be "inspired", it would be chaos.  Instead an orchestra and a city has to play as an ensemble.  This building plays well as a piece of an urban ensemble.  There is no reason for it to do anything more.  Central Park is the soloist, 15cpw plays a sensitive accompaniment in concert with the other supporting players around it.  The result is greater than its parts, because each player does what it must do, not what it can do to stand out.

I'm skeptical of having tall buildings on the waterfront. Wouldn't they cast a lot of shadows? I'm thinking that in a weather challenged city like Cleveland you would want as much natural sunlight as possible in the Flats and Lakefront.

 

You're kidding, aren't you? ... please, tell me you're kidding.

^ Of course that is a serious statement....look how bad Chicago's waterfront sucks with those damn tall buildings!!!  :roll:

^ Of course that is a serious statement....look how bad Chicago's waterfront sucks with those damn tall buildings!!!   :roll:

I think what surf is saying is he might prefer buildings that "step" up from the waterfront on both sides of the flats, with the building looking more organic and less "planned"

 

Ahh ahh ahh...those building are not on the waterfront. Lake shore Blvd, plus the waterfront separates them.  Also, those buildings are in the Old Town, Gold coast, River North, Near North Side not downtown proper and they are still set back because of LSD

 

The downtown Chitown high rises are off the water WEST of LSG, Columbus Ave., grant/millennium park and all are built on the west side of Michigan ave, so the park get great light.  Its an impressive wall of 18-30 story buildings from the Hilton Towers (7 or 8 Street) going north all the way to Randolph.

 

If I was looking to live on either bank of the flats, I would be turned off if I was on the lower east or west bank but couldn't see the opposite bank or lake. 

 

I suspect the WHD and FEB condos will have to be taller in the next round of building - so buyers can have a view as when buying dense property having a view (balcony, solarium, terrace) is a plus

^Thanks for some thoughtful insights MyTwoSense.  Much more enjoyable reading than those posts that simply mock comments made by others on the forum.

^Thanks for some thoughtful insights MyTwoSense.  Much more enjoyable reading than those posts that simply mock comments made by others on the forum.

 

Htsguy...don't take all post at face value.  There are a lot of "comics" and "sarcastic smartasses" here on UO and along with the ACCURATE and up-to-date information they collectively bring to this site...they also bring "personalities"

 

Most people here are really really cool.  the longer you're here, you'll be able to understand that - UO is like one big waltson's/Jeffersons/Bunker/Ortiz/golden girls dysfuntional family.

Anyone notice that Litt's article mentioned 600 units of housing?

The basic elements of the development include 250,000 square feet of retail, with a movie theater, shops, galleries and restaurants; 500,000 to 1 million square feet of office space; and more than 600 residential units.

 

Those numbers keep edging upward. Sounds like Wolstein is getting some serious interest from potential tenants.

 

KJP did. 

 

It was originally 300 units, right?  Then 450 units when Lighthouse Landing got added and one tower was supposed to be residential and another commercial.  So maybe now both of the Lighthouse Landing towers are staying residential...? 

I owe a phone call to some people to find out what the deal is.

 

The rising number of residential units is interesting. But what struck me was the square feet of office space -- 500,000 to 1 million?? Um, the 38-story Erieview Tower is 703,205 square feet, according to Bear Stearns Commercial Mortgage Securities Inc. I believe the old Higbee's building is about 500,000 square feet.

 

Both the residential and office components have gone way up.

I saw something interesting on a map of the Flats. This map shows the general footprint of FEB and the full build-out of Stonebridge. The only thing new that I saw was a large footprint on the west bank just south of the Main Ave bridge along the river. hmm

I saw something interesting on a map of the Flats. This map shows the general footprint of FEB and the full build-out of Stonebridge. The only thing new that I saw was a large footprint on the west bank just south of the Main Ave bridge along the river. hmm

 

What map?  Can you post a pic or link, so we're all on the same page.

Can you describe the footprint on the West Bank?

What map?  Can you post a pic or link, so we're all on the same page.

 

Sorry, can't share that stuff yet on this forum. But, I don't know much more than what I said.

 

KJP, I think its just a rectangle. It was just a shape. No words or labels.

What map?  Can you post a pic or link, so we're all on the same page.

 

Sorry, can't share that stuff yet on this forum. But, I don't know much more than what I said.

 

KJP, I think its just a rectangle. It was just a shape. No words or labels.

 

You tease!  :-P :wink:

From WCPN:

 

Flats Eminent Domain Case to Begin Trial Today

Aired May 7, 2007

 

The Cleveland-Cuyahoga County Port Authority's bid to obtain a portion of Cleveland's East Flats under eminent domain is scheduled for trial today. ideastream's economics reporter Tasha Flournoy has more.

 

Listen to the MP3

http://www.wcpn.org/mp3/2007/05/0507flats.mp3

 

The land seizure would clear the way for developer Scott Wolstein's proposed $230 million riverfront neighborhood in the East Flats. Wolstein has already razed buildings on properties he controls, but has been unable to reach an agreement with several other property owners to purchase their land. So the Port Authority is suing to force the owners under eminent domain to sell the land at a price below what owners are asking. Port Authority attorney Steven Kaufman says the development serves a public purpose, therefore eminent domain applies.

 

    Steven Kaufman: This case involves a multitude of other public purposes, ranging from housing to transportation to all of the parks and green space, public space aspects of the project.

 

Cuyahoga County Probate Judge John E. Corrigan will hear arguments in the trial. If the judge decides the port has the right to take the properties, a jury trial would then decide fair prices. The trial is expected to last at least two weeks. Tasha Flournoy, 90.3.

The x-factor in this case is how much the judge likes lapdances.

^Nice.  Or if he tailgates in the "Pit"

Where I come from, you torch the buildings if they do not sell at your price! ;)

 

Either way, I'm glad the Wolstein said everything will be built according to plan even if it has to come out of his pocket to pay what these property owners are asking.  Just too bad the average Cleveland construction delay has to be prolonged even more with these several weeks of court appears...(80 witnesses?? on effing what? see below)

 

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

Flats eminent domain trial opens

Posted by Tom Breckenridge May 07, 2007 14:22PM

Categories: Breaking News

Developer Scott Wolstein is "a wolf in sheep's clothing'' who is using the Cleveland port authority to illegally seize land for his $230 million neighborhood development on the Flats east bank, lawyers for property owners say.

 

Monday morning marked the start of the controversial eminent domain trial in Cuyahoga County Probate Court, where the Cleveland-Cuyahoga County port authority is suing to take nine properties for the development.

 

More at cleveland.com http://www.cleveland.com

I truly doubt that 80 witnesses will testify.  It is a regular practice of litigators to identify almost everybody who has anything to do with anything on their pre trial witness list.  Most of the time only a fraction really take the stand.  Couple of reasons for this.  If a person is not on the list it is the customary practice for the judge to exclude that person from testifying.  A trial lawyer may really have no intention of calling a particular witness, but may change his mind during the course of the trial depending on how things (or issues) are going.  So it is just a safe practice to have all potentially relevant names on your list.  Also, a long list of witnesses " scares" and "confuses" the other side (not really but lawyers continue to think it does).

 

I note from the court docket (yesterday) that the preliminary hearing was continued again.  However, it looks as though this was only because they did not complete hearing all the pre trial motions and were working on that yesterday.  I would imagine that they will start as soon as they finish going through all the motions (in other words the hearing has not been continued for weeks or months like in the past, just a day or so).

 

Thank God for hard headed people (both sides).  They keep the lawyers in their BMWs.

I wonder how many strippers are in the pool of 80?

torch'em -- buy'em -- take'm! who cares? just get it done already and lets get on with it.

 

kee rist if there is one thing in my face everyday of cleveland holding back its that stuff like the freakin nytimes building and the bank of america building in midtown manhattan were planned and will be built before there are any shovels in the ground in the flats. so no more delays your honor lets get a move-on.

I don't know what it is with these high profile projects, but it seems they just cannot move forward in Cleveland. Maybe them being high profile is the problem. Maybe in the future developers (like those of Stonebridge) should buy a parcel get the project approved through the city and start construction, no need for the press conferences and interviews..Just build the damn thing.

I don't know what it is with these high profile projects, but it seems they just cannot move forward in Cleveland. Maybe them being high profile is the problem. Maybe in the future developers (like those of Stonebridge) should buy a parcel get the project approved through the city and start construction, no need for the press conferences and interviews..Just build the damn thing.

 

EXACTLY!!!!

Press conferences and interviews and the "high profile " that they create aren't what is slowing down these projects.  The people they are negotiating with for property know when something is up and when someone wants their land for development, and they inevitably hear "ka-ching" in their head.  As a developer, you just can't hide that even if you try.  You inevitably have to give some clues as to who you are and what you might do with the property.  Even if you are all hush-hush about what you want with the property, that will give something away. If people catch a wiff that their property might be of value to you, they will want top dollar for it.

Zaremba, who normally shies from the limelight, went the heavy PR route to stimulate sales with the Avenue District. But he already had much of the needed property in hand when he bought the parking lots from the city. Some interesting differences and similarities there.

 

Stark tried to quietly work some behind the scenes stuff with downtown parking lot owner Tony Asher, but some nosy reporter sniffed that one out. ;) Still, for the prior year, Stark was quite the high-profile operator when it came to his desires for building downtown.

 

I tend to think developers are egoists by their very nature, simply because of what they do. They build stuff that changes the landscape, possibly for hundreds of years. Their creations are, in some ways, monuments to themselves. So the PR blitzes go with the territory. I found Zaremba to be very different breed, though. I don't know how he or other Cleveland developers compare to their colleagues around the country. Having said all that, I don't think the love or hate of PR makes one developer more or less effective than another.

^points well taken, but I think sometimes our developers fall into the messiah complex -- that their home-run project will save the city and, of course, as we see in the Flats, (as you note) these biggie, high-profile projects also draws out the leeches.  But then, too, these big projects are risky and in a conservative town like ours, where we're so freeway car oriented, big, high-density, mixed use urban developments, I'm sure, are a very hard sell here, esp in our local economy... I'm sure local banks much prefer those single-use, strip developments in the burbs.

 

Answer: do what Price-Corna (w/ Stonebridge) and MRN (E.4th Street) have done.  Start small; one building at a time, then build momentum and excitement-- contact hitters can score runs-- just don't always swing for the fences (homerun hitters are usually the biggest strikeout kings, as well).  Both Stonebridge and E. 4th are now the hottest existing downtown projects going... Meanwhile, Stark Pesht and Wolstein Flats are stalled... but things seem to be looking up for both... One must have a great deal of patience in this town; we'll all be rewarded, eventually; it's just not happening overnight.

I think you hit on it. One feature which this city seems to "excel" at is its number of leeches. They exist both in the private and public sectors, and they all seek their piece of the action. Enough of them come out to feed that it bleeds the project to death, or at least causes it to be scaled back. In my job, I see a lot of these leeches around, but I think there used to be a lot more of them back 20-50 years ago. Lots of them were mob connected, and many of today's leeches are still connected to some remnants of nefarious activity. Sadly, you'll find a concentration of them in the Flats, as well as along West 25th, Carnegie, and a few other places.

^i'd argue that practically any rust belt city has its share of leeches.

Cleveland has way more leeches than most places.  It's like a dark gray cloud hovering over the city and people need to fight like hell to rise above it.  People here tend to be way too territorial (only concerned about what's best for them and protecting their own turf) and not able to grasp the idea of embracing long-term changes that benefit the entire region.

Maybe somebody should start a seperate Cleveland "leeches" thread.  Getting back on topic, does anybody know if the actual hearing started yesterday or is going forward today?  The court docket is silent on this.

Former Mayor Jane Campbell was in court yesterday to testify.

There was a report on WTAM this morning, but there is nothing online yet.

 

 

This is from WCPN - yesterday:

 

Former Mayor Campbell Expected to Testify in Flats Case

 

Aired May 14, 2007

 

Former Cleveland Mayor Jane Campbell is scheduled to testify today in the trial over whether property in Cleveland's East Flats can be seized under eminent domain. ideastream's Bill Rice reports.

 

Listen to the MP3

http://www.wcpn.org/mp3/2007/05/0514campbell.mp3

 

As the second week of the trial gets underway, Campbell is one of at least two high-profile witnesses yet to make an appearance in the case.

 

She's expected to discuss her involvement in talks with developer Scott Wolstein as early as 2002 about his proposal to build a mixed residential and commercial complex in the East Flats. That was the year she began her first and only term as mayor, and before the Cleveland/Cuyahoga County Port Authority took a role in securing the land for the project.

 

In its suit against property owners the Port claims the economic benefit to the community Wolstein's project will generate is a public benefit, and it's therefore justified in using its power of eminent domain to acquire the land.

 

It took the case to trial after the property owners failed to accept the offered price.

And in today's PD:

 

Campbell denies secrecy in Flats project

Tuesday, May 15, 2007

Tom Breckenridge

Plain Dealer Reporter

 

Jane Campbell on Monday rejected any notion that she and her top staff worked secretly and illegally to pave the way for developer Scott Wolstein and a proposed $230 million redevelopment of the east bank of the Flats.

 

Testifying in Cuyahoga County Probate Court, the former mayor said Wolstein was a significant land owner in the Flats and the only developer with a comprehensive plan to achieve the city's goals of new housing downtown and improved access to the Cuyahoga River and Lake Erie.

 

 

More at cleveland.com http://www.cleveland.com

^from the way the article is written, it sounds like she held her own

I agree with Jane -- I've never heard of such an ordinance requiring a vote for the City's delegation of ED powers to an agency like the PA.  I think the opposition is really reaching.  Hopefully this is a precursor to they're getting their legal asses kicked.

Flats developers pitch plans for an East-West combo

Posted by Henry J. Gomez May 21, 2007 10:17AM

Categories: Breaking News, Economic development

In a booth on the floor of this year's International Council of Shopping Centers' spring convention in Las Vegas, east has met west, Cleveland-style.

 

 

The latest master plan for the Flats includes walkways linking the two banks. (Click for full size; see link in story for labeled PDF)The people behind two projects for the Flats - on opposite sides of the Cuyahoga River - have come here to market their planned neighborhoods as one for the first time. It's an intriguing strategy, a sign of unity that could perhaps manufacture momentum and stimulate close to $1 billion worth of housing, retail and office space. "This is big," said developer Bob Corna, who with K&D Group Inc. of Willoughby is working on the West Bank's $700 million Stonebridge apartment and condo project. "The sum of the parts makes a much bigger whole. We're known nationwide as the Flats."

 

 

More at http://blog.cleveland.com/business/2007/05/flats_developers_pitch_plans_f.html

now we just need a signature cable-stayed pedestrian bridge!

 

(please note sarcasm)

wow really exciting

 

this plan seems different looking in a few ways.  is there more involved with the stonebridge plan now?

Good to hear there is some cooperation going on here, but...

Looks like there will be plenty of surface parking spaces available in that masterplan.  Don't forget about the "revolutionary" cul-de-sac.

Not sure how much new is in here as much as jockeying going on.  We're all expecting some big announcement from Stark and now the 2 Flats groups have agreed to cooperate as a unified front.  Now the Flats people can be taken more seriously on a more equal footing with Stark since they're project now also hits close to $1billion.  Its good to have some competition and cooperation. 

Am I missing something or reading this wrong... where the heck is the RT. 2 bridge, isn't it North of the Detroit/Superior bridge?

Nice to see the cooperation between all of these parties.  Hopefully they're sincere and realize that the true success of each respective project is dependent on the success of its neighbors!  I can definetly see a Whole Foods/Trader Joe's and/or Fox and Obel in the area however it'd be a shame if it hurt Constantino's.  Anyways...Go CAVS!!!  I'll be at McGee's in Lincoln Park (Chicago) tonight if anyone wants to watch the game! 

Good to hear there is some cooperation going on here, but...

Looks like there will be plenty of surface parking spaces available in that masterplan.  Don't forget about the "revolutionary" cul-de-sac.

 

What disappoints me most is how close that parking is to the river.  Not only are there runoff issues (oil leaks and such,) but you'd think the developers would want the best possible views for their buildings.

Am I missing something or reading this wrong... where the heck is the RT. 2 bridge, isn't it North of the Detroit/Superior bridge?

 

It is labeled as "Main Ave Pedestrian Bridge Above" on the map with a dotted line.  I'm not sure where they're getting "pedestrian" from, though.