In particular, I'm looking at the footprint of the 20-story office tower between Front & Main.  I would imagine they'd want to build up over the garage.  Then again, this could be one of the "dated" parts of the image.  Perhaps it was done prior to knowing what would be built there.

I'm not sure I'm going to care so much about the design of what's in the WFL loop, except how it looks from outside the loop.  That area really has no context to integrate into and will be a boring office tenant-only world anyway due to its isolated location, if not also by security gate.

 

I'm simultaneously looking forward to and dreading the presentation on the 28th.  I think there might be some big time cheese risk with these designs.  We'll see.

I'm not sure I'm going to care so much about the design of what's in the WFL loop, except how it looks from outside the loop.  That area really has no context to integrate into and will be a boring office tenant-only world anyway due to its isolated location, if not also by security gate.

 

I'm simultaneously looking forward to and dreading the presentation on the 28th.  I think there might be some big time cheese risk with these designs.  We'll see.

 

Isolated location now, but with the proposed port relocation to open up that area of the lakefront for development, it's right in the middle of things and building something there so out of context (or worse, that limits access to the lakefront) would be a huge blunder. Think about the possibility of extending the street grid over the tracks and development in the area north of what would be the new WFL station.

 

Again, I hope that this part of the plan is the part that is due for an update.

I dunno. I really have a feeling that this WFL area is the way that they're wanting to go. They've mentioned the word "campus" some time ago. I really doubt that this look and feel will change.

 

I really don't mean to be negative. I really want to try and stay as upbeat as possible. But I just have a feeling some things will happen with this project that will make it a bit of a disappointment .. and, I think, a huge mistake in some ways. Nothing's a definite yet, and I know that, but I really would love to see them up the bar in terms of design and urban cohesiveness.

Isolated location now, but with the proposed port relocation to open up that area of the lakefront for development, it's right in the middle of things and building something there so out of context (or worse, that limits access to the lakefront) would be a huge blunder. Think about the possibility of extending the street grid over the tracks and development in the area north of what would be the new WFL station.

 

Again, I hope that this part of the plan is the part that is due for an update.

 

I hear ya, but as long as the RTA WFL loop and freight lines are above ground, that site is going to be isolated.  I know Stark showed off some pretty pictures with the grid seamlessly extended north over buried rails, but I really don't see Wolstein holding off development of the the loop site for 40 years while we figure out how to pay for decking and completely rebuilding this portion of the WFL. 

 

Nothing in the loop site will prevent extending 6th St north or straightening 9th Street, or maybe even extending 10th street north.

I'm not sure I'm going to care so much about the design of what's in the WFL loop, except how it looks from outside the loop. 

 

I agree. That area is destined to be a 'no mans's land' of sorts. If that's the area that we have to sacrifice to keep a huge, growing corporation in the city limits, then i'm ok with it. 

If the WFL needs to be elevated at the bend, then you should be able to build right up to it so that it becomes part of a building, rather than a barrier between two parts of a growing neighborhood.  If it's not treated right as the growth expands north of the RR tracks, we'll be living with this mistake for decades.

the 'Cleveland Design City' blog discussing the possible ramifications of the Eaton move on the river and lakefront

http://designrag.blogspot.com/2008/03/time-to-revisit-and-refine-plans-for.html

^ the City Design Blog was very good read. Articulated better than I could put it. As a "lay" person (just a dumb citizen) on this board, I see the huge issues with accessability to the lakefront, and also wonder how this will impact the mixed use wolstein project. I would not find it appealing to live in the shadow of an ugly office park that impeded my lake access or view. Same goes got enjoying any river front businesses. The whole Beachwood on the Cuyahoga was just not the bill of goods I was sold.

couldnt the WFL station at least have a glass walkway connecting it to the corporate campus?  i mean honestly, its buffered by a street and a parking lot.... why?

I'm wondering if the public will be able to voice their opinions and concerns regarding the planning of this neighborhood. Does anyone know of anything?

I'm wondering if the public will be able to voice their opinions and concerns regarding the planning of this neighborhood. Does anyone know of anything?

 

When a new building is going to be built or when there is a major change in an area, the city usually gets the neighbors involved. In this instance, there are no real existing neighbors. No matter what though, we need to scrutinize this move or else we could end up with a mistake. That said, I don't think that something inside that loop is going to have too much of a negative effect on the FEB unless the loop becomes too large.  The loop is in its own little world--cut off by concrete walls and railroad tracks. In a way, the dye has been cast when a loop was first constructed--we've effectively holed out a portion of the area and cut it off from the rest of the east bank. I'd hate to see this mistake exacerbated by increased the footprint of the loop.

I may be wrong (not an uncommon thing) but some flats and downtown residents may actually hope for something better. Some of the issue with regard to homeowner involvement is ,many downtown area residents figure they are not going to be a long time resident so they do not bother to get involved in issues that will effect the area many years to come. Although in  my mind this is just not an issue of the immediate area, but really the whole region. Maybe I am being a little melodramatic, but I think this could seriously effect the desirability of the area for potential businesses and residents for a generation to come. The short term joy of keeping a few businesses in Cleveland  may have longer term negative consequences. (and of course this is the only available space and design    :roll: the same great planning that brings the Hustler to my doorstep )

I may be wrong (not an uncommon thing) but some flats and downtown residents may actually hope for something better. Some of the issue with regard to homeowner involvement is ,many downtown area residents figure they are not going to be a long time resident so they do not bother to get involved in issues that will effect the area many years to come. Although in  my mind this is just not an issue of the immediate area, but really the whole region. Maybe I am being a little melodramatic, but I think this could seriously effect the desirability of the area for potential businesses and residents for a generation to come. The short term joy of keeping a few businesses in Cleveland  may have longer term negative consequences. (and of course this is the only available space and design    :roll: the same great planning that brings the Hustler to my doorstep )

 

I don't think you're being melodramatic at all. I truly hope people, especially outside this forum, wake up and begin to realize that it's not just about them or about this generation, even. Bad urban planning can affect generations to come. Here's hoping this is seriously done right because I don't wanna see a shit project dash my hopes of something incredible.

if any posters are present at this week's City Planning Commission meeting, then I'd love to hear any feedback concerning the Flats East Bank masterplan that is supposed to be presented. Recently, I've seen a plan for the Flats that is about 2 months old (and I think that it has changed slightly since then). I saw that a 20-story residential tower is planned next to the river and close to the RR bridge crosing the river. It is separated from the bridge by another 5-story residential building. There is a pedestrian mall that will empty into the new riverfront park. The cinema will have ten screens. The office tower will be on W.10th. There will also be some office combined with the cinema. The Heinens will be about the size of the OC Dave's and will be adjacent to the RR tracks just south of the RTA loop. The only surface parking in the entire plan will be just east of Heinens, immediately south of the tracks, north of Front St and east of that connector bridge to the port. That's all for now.

 

Sounds great. I wish I could attend. Any and all reports of this meeting and specifically of the Flats East Bank presentation will be greatly appreciated!

details anyone!

details anyone!

with photos or illustrations would be preferred.

if any posters are present at this week's City Planning Commission meeting, then I'd love to hear any feedback concerning the Flats East Bank masterplan that is supposed to be presented.  Recently, I've seen a plan for the Flats that is about 2 months old (and I think that it has changed slightly since then). I saw that a 20-story residential tower is planned next to the river and close to the RR bridge crosing the river. It is separated from the bridge by another 5-story residential building.  There is a pedestrian mall that will empty into the new riverfront park. The cinema will have ten screens. The office tower will be on W.10th. There will also be some office combined with the cinema. The Heinens will be about the size of the OC Dave's and will be adjacent to the RR tracks just south of the RTA loop. The only surface parking in the entire plan will be just east of Heinens, immediately south of the tracks, north of Front St and east of that connector bridge to the port. That's all for now.

 

Can't wait to see what gets revealed.  Surely Litt will be there, no?

http://blog.cleveland.com/pdgraphics/2008/03/29FGFLATS.pdf

 

Link from Cleveland.com article

Flats project grows; new plans show final layout, scope

Posted by mjarboe March 28, 2008 11:32AM

 

Click on image to download PDF.

 

Most of a $500-million redevelopment along the east bank of the Flats could be finished by late 2010. That would include a 150-room hotel, more than 430 residences, a public park and about 975,000 square feet of offices. While the final design of buildings has not been released, the image shows relative size and location of planned buildings.

"I think the more we studied the great waterfront urban districts in the world, the more we came to believe that for this project to help redefine the future of the city, it needed to have a real critical mass," Adam Fishman of Fairmount Properties said in an interview earlier this week.

 

 

:clap:

Funny how we talk all the time about critical mass here at UO, but some of these folks who make a very nice living off real estate development act like it's some sort of revelation.

Well...I think it's pretty exciting and I like what I see.  Based on the drawing, I think they did a nice job incorporating the riverfront.  I know there has been some concern regarding Eaton...there's still a lot of room on the north side of the WFL should that area be developed into a lake front park (or whatever).  I would like to see a pedestrian bridge over the river allowing access from the marina on Whiskey Island (or sommehow allow pedestrians on the existing bridge) and put in a bunch of restaurants/shops between Eaton and the Lake.  Could serve both Eaton employees for lunch/after work dinner & drinks and a summer time weekend crowd, not to mention Browns tailgating.

 

Do we know how usable that land is anyway?

 

Also like the "entertainment complex" bringing back the old Odeon days.

The landcaping picture has a nice Miami feel to it...  Maybe its the pink hues and the baby blue Cuyahoga.  I had to look closer to make sure those trees weren't palm trees..  The massing looks better I suppose.  The Waterfront line doesn't seem to be depicted very clearly and I think thats odd since thats the only known factor to this whole thing.

2010! WOW

I think its funny how they specify "20 Story Class A Office Building". I don't know much, but I assume no one aspires to build Class B/C.

If I understand the specs correctly, it appears that the northwestern most 2 buildings are not going to be part of the original project and will only be developed if the demand is high enough??  What will be done with that land in the meantime..... I smell surface lots  :x

If I understand the specs correctly, it appears that the northwestern most 2 buildings are not going to be part of the original project and will only be developed if the demand is high enough??  What will be done with that land in the meantime..... I smell surface lots  :x

 

I was thinking the same thing.

also per the PDF, Item 8: Is "hing-end" some term I've never heard before, or does the PD/Forum Architects need an editor?

Come on pope... hing-end is all the rage when it comes to waterfront housing, you know that.

Aside from Gateway, is this the the biggest development project in Cleveland's history??

Nope. The Terminal Tower complex in the 1920s-30s was the largest. If built today, including all the railroad approach rights of way from Linndale to the west to Collinwood in the east, the project would carry a price tag of nearly $2 billion -- all privately financed.

It doesn't look like there is any place for Ernst and Young in that massing.  Does that mean we can assume that they are looking elsewhere (Stark, K&D maybe)? 

^I would guess that they'd be in the 20 or 21 story Class A office space -- no?

 

^^Nope, per the Crains article not too long ago, a Cleveland lawfirm will be in that building along with other tenants... here's hoping that Ernst & Young go to Pesht...

^I would guess that they'd be in the 20 or 21 story Class A office space -- no?

 

 

That's what I was thinking.

 

I wonder if the "luxury" hotel is the "W Warehouse District" or "Westin Waterfront" I've been hearing rumors of?  The W, Westin, St. Regis and Conrad brands are the usuall suspect when it comes to Condo-Hotels.

normally I would be a bit sceptical about he demand here for luxury condo/hotel, but I guess they could sell a few units to wealthy Browns seasons ticket holders, and in and out of town business people. Otherwise does anyone think there would be a huge local demand for this? I just say this given the Pinnacle (luxury with concierge) had a number of unsold units last I heard.  Do other cities with a similar demographic as Cleveland have these? Given existing condo units already available and moving slow in the area, I wonder what will make this housing stand out (other than being the newest kid on the block) I would think it would be hard to get investors right now.

I think Tucker and Ellis is supposed to be going in that building.  I'm really hoping that we'll see Ernst and Young helping to spur more development elsewhere.  The Eaton "campus" doesn't look nearly as bad as I was imagining that it might, but this is just a massing, right? 

T&E is taking only a few floors of the 20+ story building. That's not enough to even be considered an anchor tenant.

I know the graphic says "drawing shows size and location of buildings. the final design has not been released," but I can't help react to it. \

 

What happened to the "grid" idea? The road layout and massings look to me like a traffic headache waiting to happen. It also doesn't look very adaptable for proper expansion to the lakefront.

 

What about all that inspiration? I thought the design and layout was supposed to evoke Little Italy, Shaker Square and even Florence.

 

What happened to the Waterfront line? I can see the loop but where is the rest of it?

 

 

What about all that inspiration? I thought the design and layout was supposed to evoke Little Italy, Shaker Square and even Florence.

 

I think Stark said that.

normally I would be a bit sceptical about he demand here for luxury condo/hotel, but I guess they could sell a few units to wealthy Browns seasons ticket holders, and in and out of town business people. Otherwise does anyone think there would be a huge local demand for this? I just say this given the Pinnacle (luxury with concierge) had a number of unsold units last I heard.  Do other cities with a similar demographic as Cleveland have these? Given existing condo units already available and moving slow in the area, I wonder what will make this housing stand out (other than being the newest kid on the block) I would think it would be hard to get investors right now.

 

Yes the demand is there.  There is a lot of money here, regardless of what people "think".  This is going to be an instant destination.  A hotel adds continual new blood to the area.  (I also believe hotels are missing pieces of the puzzle in Tremont, Ohio City, D-S, Shaker Square and Edgewater.)

 

If I'm not mistaken, but I thought all the regular units sold?  IIRC, the only units left in the pinnacle are a few of the super high end duplex units.

 

If Minneapolis can redevelop a Westin, build a new Westing and rebuild (with tax credits) the fabulous hotel Ivy, then we can in Cleveland.   This project connects another "dot" and makes downtown that more desirable.

normally I would be a bit sceptical about he demand here for luxury condo/hotel, but I guess they could sell a few units to wealthy Browns seasons ticket holders, and in and out of town business people. Otherwise does anyone think there would be a huge local demand for this? I just say this given the Pinnacle (luxury with concierge) had a number of unsold units last I heard.  Do other cities with a similar demographic as Cleveland have these? Given existing condo units already available and moving slow in the area, I wonder what will make this housing stand out (other than being the newest kid on the block) I would think it would be hard to get investors right now.

 

Not a huge local demand, but I'd say there's some. Condo/hotel arrangements usually work best for people who do a lot of traveling or as a second (or third) home. Other cities comparable to Cleveland's market have them.

 

What will make this housing stand out compared to other spots? Compared to Pinnacle - the FEB housing won't be RIGHT on top of the main club district. It'll also have RTA rail service practically at the front door instead of a two-block walk. Compared to Stonebridge, it will have better lake views and a location more walkable to the CBD. Being the newest kid on the block has a lot of appeal for empty-nesters. They usually don't want to deal with maintenance whereas the younger crowds are a little more forgiving.

I agree that there is a demand for the hotel, but I'm not sure about how high the demand is for high end luxury condos.  I'd be okay with it if there is a small number of condos atop the hotel. I'm just hoping that they don't saturate the market with them.  I'd rather see more smaller condos and studio lofts that might appeal more to young professionals. 

"European-inspired" and "specialty shops".  Wow, developer-speak sure is nausea-inducing.  Still, the massing/site plan is a big step up from the more conceptual stuff revealed before.

 

Good questions, peabody about the market for those condos.  The rental market downtown is still pretty strong though, no?

I think the semantics are important - there are high-end condos, and then there are high end "hotel-condos", where residents are able to use the hotel's services (housekeeping, amenities, etc.) when they're in the unit. Then, when they're away or traveling, they allow their unit to be used by the hotel for clients (no idea how owners are reimbursed, or if the sale price is lowered as a result).

 

It's not my cup of tea, but for people who use the "hotel condo" as a second or third home, it frees them from maintenance but gets more mileage out of their investment. You only really see these arrangements in upscale residences and hotel brands.

What happened to the Waterfront line? I can see the loop but where is the rest of it?

 

It's a little telling about the attitude to rail that either actually exists or is perceived to exist by some movers and shakers that they basically decided not to show what should be one of this projects best assets.  It's like they look at the WFL like a photographer looks at the laugh lines in a model's face or a mole that's a little too big to be considered cute.  "Can't have that, but don't worry, we'll just airbrush it right out."

 

I disagree.  The WFL is the cleavage of the Flats East Bank and they should not be afraid to show it off.

"The WFL is the cleavage of the Flats East Bank"

 

RTA's newest ad campaign! :lol:

Not a huge local demand, but I'd say there's some. Condo/hotel arrangements usually work best for people who do a lot of traveling or as a second (or third) home. Other cities comparable to Cleveland's market have them.

 

This isn't a "Cond-tel"or Time share as per the article. 

including 50 high-end condominiums perched atop a 150-room luxury hotel

This is a hotel with condo's on top.  I take from the above statement that there will be a seperate entrance and facilities for the condo owners.

 

I'm thinking the hotel/condo builing would be similar to the W Hotel in Dallas (www.victoryresidences.com), Westin Book Cadillac in Detroit (www.westinbookcadillacresidences.com), Conrad Miami (www.espiritosantoplaza.com) or the New W hotel in Downtown Atlanta (www.allenplazaresidences.com).  And directly to Peabody's question, the Conrad Indi (http://conradindianapolisresidences.com/flash.htm)

I don't necessarily think they are hiding it... the WFL runs along 10th street... which pretty much puts it behind some of the buildings shown in the rendering... and there are no "shelters" or stops north of the main avenue bridge... so in fact it is pretty transparent in this area.