I doubt that 50 high-end condos will saturate the market. It is not like we are talking about thousands i.e. Miami.

I guess saturate probably wasn't the best word to use there.  I'm just curious to see if we are building what we have a demand for. 

Anyone know if the lofts in the Arena district in Columbus a combo condo and hotel?

I don't necessarily think they are hiding it... the WFL runs along 10th street... which pretty much puts it behind some of the buildings shown in the rendering... and there are no "shelters" or stops north of the main avenue bridge... so in fact it is pretty transparent in this area.

 

I guess you are right, but they don't even show it crossing Main Ave.

 

I don't mind the lack of grid.  It's a small footprint.

I liked an older version of the plan where a pedestrian mall bisected building #4. This created a sort of grand entry into the park, opened up some interesting views and perspectives, broke down this super block, and made the place more quaint. This roof top garden will keep some residents from venturing out into the riverside park.

 

I'd also like to see a gap between building #4 and the 2nd phase building to its immediate west so that a street could eventually cut over the tracks and connect to future development on the port land. FEB cannot become a disconnected island when the port gets built up in future decades.

 

 

I agree that there is a demand for the hotel, but I'm not sure about how high the demand is for high end luxury condos.  I'd be okay with it if there is a small number of condos atop the hotel. I'm just hoping that they don't saturate the market with them.  I'd rather see more smaller condos and studio lofts that might appeal more to young professionals. 

 

I think the thought is that by the time this is open, the real estate market should bve more stable and therefore inviting to buyers currently selling a home.  Most likely in a project of this magnitude, a presale requirement was not needed due to mixed use of office parking hotel and residential.  All the eggs aren't in one basket. 

I'm not real excited by the Riverfront Park.  I would have preferred a more intimate riverfront space, with the buildings directly lining the boardwalk.  I think this will be generic feeling, but I know the greenspace is too politically popular for it to go away. 

 

What is going on at the SE corner of W. 10th and Front?  Not a plaza, I hope?  That whole block looks a little funky.

^this is a product that is not available currently in the area-- a built out, mixed-use neighborhood with access to water, transit, large corporoate offices, retail, entertainment, neighborhood retail--and there are not surface lots dotting the landscape. It will have a "finished" feel to it that I think will be more enticing to the average buyer. So many of our other projects have this "just wait another five years and this place will really look nice" feel to it (Avenue, Stonebridge, Ohio City and other neighborhoods. With the hotels, offices, residences, and retail, this area will have unique amount of foot traffic that Clevelanders will not be used to.

 

Additionally, I think that this area will be attractive to buyers because it will not have the "poor urban element" that scares some people away from other parts of downtown. 

^^It's "gated" by it's geography, in a sense.

^^It's "gated" by it's geography, in a sense.

 

to piggyback onto what 3231 said, that why in my earlier post I stated this will be an "instant destination".  I also has the benefit of being up against the West Ninth wall of restaurants and homes with an established base and draw. 

 

The WHD will prosper (and at the same time have to reinvent - refine or further define itself) because it has a new neighbor that everyone will want to see and in the initial buzz phase some people will not be able to get in restaurants or establishments, so they patronize a joint in the WHD.

 

Also, the location of the market is beneficial to both residents in the FEB and WHD and is far away from the current "niche" market that they can co exist.

My intuition says that this project, compared to others downtown up until this point, will do the best job at attracting upper income people from the suburbs.

 

1. New "Neighborhood" - It is a completely new single-handed "neighborhood" downtown, which hasn't been done before. They have the luxury of strong marketing resources and the ability to generate a lot of press coverage.

2. Location - It is close enough to take full advantage of all that downtown has, and it has the waterfront. Unlike the Avenue District and Stonebridge, this may appear to have less safety concerns because of its borders.

3. Heinens Grocery (assuming this is true) - Everyone knows Heinen's operates in affluent Cleveland suburbs. If Heinens opens in the Flats, that is going to send a strong message.

4. Office Tenant Employees -  I think more management at those firms moving to the FEB will be prompted to consider buying. Even though a lot more residential options have been made available downtown, I think a the fact their office is moving to new space in a development with new residential space makes the idea of moving downtown more attractive.

BTW, I got a faxed press release from the Wolstein Group and Fairmount Properties, by way of PR guru Nancy Lesic. Nothing too dramatic in it.

 

But I found this part of particular interest:

 

"Architects from NBBJ's Columbus office will design the project 475,000 square foot, 20-story office tower on the corner of Main Street and W. 10th street, straddling the Warehouse and Flats districts. The building will hose the Tucker, Ellis and West law firm among other prominent tenants."

 

The press release also states:

 

"The developers of the East Bank are participating in a pilot program sponsored by the U.S. Green Building Council to be certified as a green neighborhood. As part of of the Leadership in Energy & Environmental Design (LEED) for Neighborhood Development pilot program, the project will undergo rigorous analysis in order to be certified as one of the first LEED-ND green neighborhoods in the country. LEED-ND is the first green building rating system that looks beyond individual buildings to address entire neighborhoods - encompassing streets, sidewalks, public spaces and storefronts. Project involvement in this program contributes to Cleveland's role as fourth in the nation for the number of developments seeking certification in this pilot program."

 

They also promised to send me some renderings, but I suspect the PD will have the images in tomorrow's paper.

 

 

^^It's "gated" by it's geography, in a sense.

 

no question about it and since they are tearing out absolutely everything thats currently there for this no getting around it either.

 

not that its a disaster, but i would have liked to see kindlers and the rockefeller warehouse kept in the mix somehow. too much to ask i suppose.

 

at fa glance this plan is not immediately particularly clever or well planned out. i too am disappointed by the riverfront park & would have liked something close to the river, more like the thames walk or camden in london or funkier like riverwalk in san antonio, at least in parts. i'll withold judgement on #4 & #5 residential massings other than to say maybe there seems to be too much horizontal focus and that they are just plopped down randomly.

 

however, the rest of it looks great and overall yay. a big project like this is always going to be a mixed bag. no real complaints, i just hope they get to it asap.

 

What does the group think about the Eaton massings?  Does this relieve the "campus" fear?

What does the group think about the Eaton massings?  Does this relieve the "campus" fear?

 

Nope, I think that space should be and interactive community park, and step up housing!  Big thumbs down from the mighty MTS!

You know, I hope Forest City is seeing this.  That same project could have been done at Scranton Penn. years ago

the eaton setup in the wfl loop looks very intriguing to me.

They said on one of the local news stations that this is now a half billion dollar project and  rising!

 

Good stuff

"What does the group think about the Eaton massings?  Does this relieve the "campus" fear?"

 

Not completely. I'm seeing a moat of greenspace around a midrise with a pedestrian bridge connection over the tracks. On the south side, I can understand needing a buffer (and barrier) for the Norfolk/Southern tracks, but to the west... not liking what I'm seeing. As mrnyc said, with anything of this scale it's gonna be hard to get a "A" for every single element, but of course this rendering is still in the preliminary stages.

GO CLEVELAND!

 

Once completed, i'm willing to bet that this will be the new foreground to all Cleveland skyline shots.  (Wendy Park area)

lol - there it is, da first urban photo/geek comment about camera angles.

 

gotta love it. yes indeedy, that's why we're so money on this a-here uo forum, folks!  :laugh:

You know, I hope Forest City is seeing this.  That same project could have been done at Scranton Penn. years ago

 

Punch, I'll do you one better!  A project like this on a larger scale CAN BE DONE right on top of FC's stinking parking garage.  

 

Punch, you done got my pressure up!  Besides, who cares what they think??  FCE's bean counters, don't think there is any reason to invest in Cleveland - F'em!

 

Lets bask in the glory of the FEB project moving forward.  If - and its a gigantic if  :roll: - FCE's decides to jump into the downtown mixed use project game, we can discuss their project then and in a separate thread.  Lets not pollute this thread with FCE's negative energy!

I'm not real excited by the Riverfront Park.  I would have preferred a more intimate riverfront space, with the buildings directly lining the boardwalk.  I think this will be generic feeling, but I know the greenspace is too politically popular for it to go away. 

 

I completely agree.  Not sure what all that lawn is for.  I'm actually surprised they made the park so big that none of the phase 1 units are up close to the water.

I'm not real excited by the Riverfront Park.  I would have preferred a more intimate riverfront space, with the buildings directly lining the boardwalk.  I think this will be generic feeling, but I know the greenspace is too politically popular for it to go away. 

 

I completely agree.  Not sure what all that lawn is for.  I'm actually surprised they made the park so big that none of the phase 1 units are up close to the water.

 

As mrnyc stated, it's not going to please everyone. I like that there is a buffer between the boardwalk and the units.  I don't think they need to be right up on the water. 

The idea with the green space is that they could hold festivals on the closed off road (between the two traffic circles) and have it spill onto the green space. I'm sure there are other reasons (people think all green space is good; public funds are used for the project therefore there should be some public space, etc).

What does the group think about the Eaton massings?  Does this relieve the "campus" fear?

 

I don't think it matters much...all hidden behind RR tracks from the rest of the world.

The idea with the green space is that they could hold festivals on the closed off road (between the two traffic circles) and have it spill onto the green space. I'm sure there are other reasons (people think all green space is good; public funds are used for the project therefore there should be some public space, etc).

 

That all makes sense I guess.  But remind me not to buy a unit facing the festival space.  The older I get, the more I like quiet at home.

With the way the massings are grouped, I am getting a distinct "Baltimore Inner Harbor" type of flavor with this. Obviously with different,  smaller scale attractions of course.

 

And it's easy to imagine how the pedestrian flow will work along the river (again, see Baltimore).  I hope this public access route is a concept that surrounding areas can build from. I can picture down the line a connected, more traditional boardwalk setup with rides and arcades in the vein of Euclid Beach Park. A true summer destination the city is sorely lacking.

 

Anyhow, it will be fun and exciting to keep our eyes on this.... 2010!!!!!!

I'm a little concerned FEB is morphing from a prime riverfront residential development into more of a sterile corporate center.  Are we really just relocating corporate offices out of Cleve's CBD core, where vacancy his high enough, and robbing ourselves of prime residential land?  -- remember, Wolstein’s footprint is not very large.  I'm not seeing any high-rise condos/apts while this model has a 20-story corporate tower.  I've always said Cleveland needs more high-rise residences and this would be a perfect place to have one.  [in the last 30 years, I only count 3 10+ res high-rises built inside Cleveland's borders: Crittenden (18 fls) and Stonebridge's condo (12 fls) and Avenue District (?) -- this is far worse than comparable cities like St. Louis and even Milwaukee; and if we can't build them on the waterfront on a tight, TOD-oriented land mass; where?] .. What happened to the Lighthouse’s residential twin?  Guess this is yet another: 'when future demand develops ...'

ok that rendering is looking kinda "parma mid-rise" on the river in my opinion.  the eaton building still looks isolated and doesnt even look connected to the WFL station... why?  thats my biggest issue.   

 

id still say make the buildings less wide and more narrow and taller.  split that up with streets, that massing looks worse than the others

OK, here's the full press release from Wolstein and Fairmount. Like I said, nothing that's terribly new:

____________________

 

FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE

 

$500 Million Rebirth of Flats Closer

Architects hired for riverfront development; 

Completion of master site plan sets stage for design and construction

 

March 28, 2008- CLEVELAND-  Updated plans for the $500 million Flats East Bank development emphasizing riverfront access, abundant green space and improved connectivity to the waterfront and bordering downtown destinations were outlined at a Cleveland City Planning Commission meeting today.

 

“This isn’t just another entertainment district – it’s a catalytic neighborhood that’s going to place this city on the map as an urban waterfront destination,” said Scott Wolstein, principal in The Wolstein Group, the primary developers responsible for the new vision for the East Bank of the Flats that will bring the riverfront back to life again.  “I want Greater Clevelanders to be excited about this project and what it means for the future of Cleveland.”

 

The East Bank development will soon revitalize the now desolate, underutilized riverfront into a bustling urban environment where Greater Clevelanders will live, work, shop, dine and spend leisure time.  The project is the largest public-private investment in Cleveland’s history.  Site plan updates include: 

 

• Generous riverfront access and visibility, with the public park space as the neighborhood’s focus, and a 1,200 foot public boardwalk

• Significant environmental features including landscaped roof gardens, extensive pedestrian and bike paths and use of recycled infrastructure materials

• Connectivity with the Warehouse District, the remainder of downtown, and the future Canal Basin Park

• Distinctive features within the project itself such as  climate controlled passageways and cobble-stone streets

• Waterfront restaurants, retail and residential units remain, though the project has grown significantly in scope since it was first announced in 2005; It will include approximately 975,000 square feet of office space, 300,000 square feet of retail space- including a 20,000 square foot gourmet market- and more than 430 residential units including apartments, lofts, townhomes, condominiums, and potential live/work space at a variety of price points.

 

Cleveland-based Forum Architects, which has been involved in the Wolstein family vision for the Flats since the mid 1990s, continues to play a key role in project design, including the master planning.  The project team has also hired three additional world-renowned architecture firms – NBBJ, Eppstein-Uhen and RTKL.  Lakewood-based Dimit Architects will also consult on the project.

 

NBBJ, headquartered in Seattle, designed Reebok’s world headquarters, Starbucks’ headquarters, Boeing’s corporate facilities and the Cleveland Clinic’s Miller Family Pavilion Heart Center.  Architects from NBBJ’s Columbus office will design the project’s 475,000 square foot, 20-story office tower on the corner of Main Street and W. 10th street, straddling the Warehouse and Flats districts.  The building will house the Tucker, Ellis and West law firm among other prominent tenants.

NBBJ will work to establish an integral link of activity and view of the river from downtown. Residential apartments, a fitness center and street-front retail at the base of the office tower will reinforce the connection.

 

Also announced as part of the design team, RTKL, which has offices across the world and a solid background in urban planning will focus on outdoor space, landscaping, exterior retail graphics and project signage.  They will also provide design expertise on the cinema and 150-room European-style boutique hotel.

 

RTKL stresses that the space “between buildings is as important as the buildings themselves,” said Keith Campbell, vice president at RTKL.

 

“The site itself is truly unique -- one of the most compelling urban redevelopment sites in the country,” Campbell added.  “We look forward to building on the history of the site, maximizing its waterfront character and emphasizing the diversity of scales, materials and retail expressions.”

 

RTKL will look to Baltimore Inner Harbor, Battery Park in New York and Rowes Wharf in Boston for inspiration

 

Eppstein-Uhen, will lead design efforts for the majority of residential and retail mixed-use properties.  The Wisconsin firm’s responsibilities will include the primary waterfront property and the largest retail/residential building in the project.    The structure will line the riverfront, and include rooftop landscaping and possibly a rooftop swimming pool.

 

Eppstein-Uhen led design efforts for Madison, Wisconsin’s Nole Shore waterfront condo development and the Historic Riverwalk connecting Milwaukee’s downtown to the Historic Third Ward.  “The architectural design and character of the buildings and public spaces will speak directly to the great industrial history of the Flats as well as to the future of a new and vibrant retail, entertainment and residential district, said Chris Gallagher, principal of Eppstein-Uhen.  “The project will be of the highest quality and will become a wonderful example of a mixed-use riverfront development.”

 

With the master site plan set and specialized firms engaged, more complete architectural renderings of the East Bank are anticipated within several months. 

 

Going the Extra Green Mile

 

The project’s environmentally-conscious design and construction will help place Cleveland at the forefront of the national green movement. 

 

The developers of the East Bank are participating in a pilot program sponsored by the U.S. Green Building Council to be certified as a green neighborhood. As a part of the Leadership in Energy & Environmental Design (LEED®) for Neighborhood Development pilot program, the project will undergo rigorous analysis in order to be certified as one of the first LEED-ND green neighborhoods in the country.  LEED-ND is the first green building rating system that looks beyond individual buildings to address entire neighborhoods - encompassing streets, sidewalks, public spaces and storefronts.  Project involvement in this program contributes to Cleveland's role as fourth in the nation for the number of developments seeking certification in this pilot program.

 

“The East Bank in the Flats will ultimately be a neighborhood with improved infrastructure that works in greater harmony and efficiency with our natural resources, increased commitment to recycling and energy efficiency, increased walk and bike-ability, and an overall advancement of a healthier way of living, working and playing,” said Michelle Bandy-Zalatoris, who is serving as the project’s LEED consultant.

 

Please contact us if you would like to obtain site plan images.

 

-30-

 

 

And here's some images:

 

 

 

Flats plans grow; most to be done by late 2010

Posted by mjarboe March 28, 2008 11:32AM

 

 

A developer's vision for the east bank of the Flats has grown dramatically, driven by demand for new downtown space for offices, hotels and other businesses.

 

A project expected three years ago to cost $230 million now has a price tag twice as high. Plans for 300 residences have become designs for 430 apartments, lofts and condominiums. And a single office building has been transformed into a possible lakeside corporate campus, plus a 20-story tower on the edge of the Warehouse District.

 

More at

http://blog.cleveland.com/business/2008/03/flats_project_grows_new_plans.html

 

 

IMAGE AT: http://blog.cleveland.com/business/2008/03/newflats.pdf

"RTKL will look to Baltimore Inner Harbor, Battery Park in New York and Rowes Wharf in Boston for inspiration"

 

I knew it, Baltimore's Inner Harbor is the main template for FEB, which is actually kind of strange because the Flats are much more comparable to Fells Point imho (smaller scale, historic, more of a street grid layout, more intimate).

 

North Coast Harbor is really the spot where we should be getting the "Inner Harbor" treatment.

What the hell is THIS?

 

Is it just me, or does anybody else think that we'd been enticed with images over the years of a dense urban development with numerous public streets that was complementary to the historic scale & architecture that STILL exists south of the Main Ave. bridge, to be given this glammed up, wide open spaces between every building, Miami Beach-style letdown?

 

Compare the first set of preliminary drawings offered to the public to the new ones. I want to hear from ANYONE, that the new plans are superior to the first. I'm praying that the city doesn't follow the habit of approving ANYTHING at all, simply because any development is better than none.

Increasing the size and scope of this project is not a good enough reason to change the entire look and appeal. My primary objection is the central portion, which creates an insular shopping mall, not an opened up district that can be traversed on foot outdoors.Wolstein & Fairmount have their heads so far up their collective suburban sphincters that they just couldn't resist messing with a good thing.

What is the wisdom of putting the movie theater directly in front of the Waterfront Line? That seems like a waste of access since movie theaters are physically big but their entry ways small. Why don't they put the residential and street-level retail on the line and hide the theater somewhere else?

 

I don't know about that corporate headquarters bit, either. I mean, it's neat a company gets an RTA stop all to themselves, but how many people are really going to ride it? I'd like it better if it were more condensed and the parking hidden under the actual structure. That'd be my version :)

The area south of the tracks looks fine to me. I like the density-- don't forget that the West 10th property where the office building is proposed to go was originally going to be a surface parking lot. There is more density in the FEB plans south of the tracks.

 

North of the tracks, specifically inside the WFL loop, is something that has no business being downtown. I want Eaton to stay downtown, just not using the finest planning principles that Beachwood, Independence or North Olmsted could possibly offer.

BarneyBoy, I think your assessment is overly harsh.  While not perfect, the design allows continuous building frontages along most streets.  It breaks that pattern at the water's edge, which I don't like.  I'm not sure that the central building is an interior oriented mall.  I don't think that the renderings or articles tell us that one way or the other for sure.  It looks to me like there will be parking and/or service access in the middle.

Here's the original renderings for comparison:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Here is what the Lakefront Planning process came up with:

 

 

X,

 

At first, I didn't agree with you regarding how the streets meet the park and the waterfront. Now that you reposted them, I agree with you. I don't dislike the new waterfront design, but I liked the old one better (except for the phase two buildings).

"What does the group think about the Eaton massings?  Does this relieve the "campus" fear?"

 

Not completely. I'm seeing a moat of greenspace around a midrise with a pedestrian bridge connection over the tracks. On the south side, I can understand needing a buffer (and barrier) for the Norfolk/Southern tracks, but to the west... not liking what I'm seeing. As mrnyc said, with anything of this scale it's gonna be hard to get a "A" for every single element, but of course this rendering is still in the preliminary stages.

 

It also looks like the long low lying structure in front of the Eaton proposed HQ is a parking garage.

What is the wisdom of putting the movie theater directly in front of the Waterfront Line? That seems like a waste of access since movie theaters are physically big but their entry ways small. Why don't they put the residential and street-level retail on the line and hide the theater somewhere else?

 

I don't know about that corporate headquarters bit, either. I mean, it's neat a company gets an RTA stop all to themselves, but how many people are really going to ride it? I'd like it better if it were more condensed and the parking hidden under the actual structure. That'd be my version :)

 

Most likely to help spur use of the line.  Most people coming to the theatre might actually chose to take public transportation.  Also, its within walking distance, to other retail in the development. I would not consider that "out of the way".    Isn't this a walking neighborhood?  The station is within four/five blocks of everything.  Is this a serious issue?  Seriously??

 

The area south of the tracks looks fine to me. I like the density-- don't forget that the West 10th property where the office building is proposed to go was originally going to be a surface parking lot. There is more density in the FEB plans south of the tracks.

 

North of the tracks, specifically inside the WFL loop, is something that has no business being downtown. I want Eaton to stay downtown, just not using the finest planning principles that Beachwood, Independence or North Olmsted could possibly offer.

I totally agree.  That area should be mid to high rise residentail with interactive green space (examples: kayaking, paddle boats, running/bike trail, spot workout stations, bike/rollerblade rental stations).

 

X,

 

At first, I didn't agree with you regarding how the streets meet the park and the waterfront. Now that you reposted them, I agree with you. I don't dislike the new waterfront design, but I liked the old one better (except for the phase two buildings).

I too, like the first rendering, however the project has grown to include more moving pieces than originally proposed.  Now there is definitely a hotel, and more office space.  I didn't like the public plaza, but I really like the board walk presented in these renderings.

 

Lastly, is this a final?  Before we get all upset, lets be sure where we are in the development/planning process and stages.

X,

 

At first, I didn't agree with you regarding how the streets meet the park and the waterfront. Now that you reposted them, I agree with you. I don't dislike the new waterfront design, but I liked the old one better (except for the phase two buildings).

 

What I would really like along the waterfront is closer to what is in the Lakefront Plans renderings, or what was already there, but with a continuous public boardwalk, a couple more access points, and more density. 

 

I have had this vision of the Cuyahoga from the Lakefront all the way to W. 3rd street being lined with continuous public boardwalk, and buildings fronting directly onto that boardwalk (with a few interruptions like the OC hillside and appropriately placed and sized access points, of course).  There would be retail and entertainment along the boardwalk level of some of it- especially through this, the "heart" of the Flats.  Other parts would be residential, services, or office at the ground floor, but all of it would be mid rise apts or office with balconies and roof decks on the upper stories.  It think this would "frame" the Cuyahoga, create a unique sense of place unlike anywhere else in the world, and allow density without overwhelming the Flats with large buildings.

 

Is it still a given a new elevated WFL stop will be built where the inside-the-loop office building will be built?  Let’s hope so, but it seems that from the old to the new rendering, the building his now facing away from the WFL loop and flush with a new parking garage for traffic coming off the W. 9th ramp.  Also, is that a ped-ramp from the office building that curls of the NS tracks over to Front Ave?

 

I agree with the comment, Baltimore’s bland Inner Harbor should not be a model for this unique, more residential, more tightly-developed project.

 

Look at the foot of the ped-ramp, that could be the rapid station as it leads directly into the building. The article above mentions climate controlled passageways, maybe the ped-ramp is one of them.

I generally like what I am seeing. 

 

Really cannot see the comparison to Baltimore's Inner Harbor.  That is far more of a tourist destination than what is currently proposed for the FEB.  FEB, as currently proposed has nice mix of residential, entertainment, retail and office without any one thing really dominating (gee, just like a real city).  Residential has a nice mix of rental and owner housing (with the plan to start as low as 200,000 which is very affordable for this type of development) and a hotel which may be unique to Cleveland.  A grocery store which will service the residents and people living in the warehouse district (again, less like Inner Harbor"s tourist domination) and a movie theatre which I also imagine will be most attractive to downtown residents (but hopefully will also attract others).  The retail is not concentrated in a "festival market" but is on a variety of  walkable streets with residential above (again just like a real city).  The "entertainment venues" seem to be placed in the right spots up along the river (just like the old flats) and again don't seem to dominant.  The green space are just the right amount for residents and visitors.

 

While there is a lot of planned office space (much more than origanally planned) it is on the fringes and in the case of the Tucker Ellis building almost touches the rest of the downtown office market.  I don't see the suggested corporate feel.  A nice mix and certainly not like Inner Harbor (no museums or festival market).

 

Very anxious to see the actual designs but I think we can expect much better than the suggested "Parma midrise" look.  However, mid rise is very appropriate for this location.

 

MTS I agree with many of your observations

 

I agree that mid rise is best for the Flats as well. High rises belong in the CBD, I think.

 

I have mixed feelings about this plan. I'm not sure how I feel.

 

I definitely, however, still hate the Eaton campus. I seriously hate that part. A lot.

ok that rendering is looking kinda "parma mid-rise" on the river in my opinion.  the eaton building still looks isolated and doesnt even look connected to the WFL station... why?  thats my biggest issue.   

 

id still say make the buildings less wide and more narrow and taller.  split that up with streets, that massing looks worse than the others

I agree that mid rise is best for the Flats as well. High rises belong in the CBD, I think.

 

I have mixed feelings about this plan. I'm not sure how I feel.

 

I definitely, however, still hate the Eaton campus. I seriously hate that part. A lot

.

 

My point exactly!

While the development gets bigger, so have the buildings, therefore the scale and continuity of the surrounding neighborhoods is sacrificed and ignored. Fewer streets making for a clustering of venues. It's much like what happened in Houston when there was no zoning. Where an intimate, leafy suburban neighborhood is immediately next to a series of high rises and huge shopping malls. A more sensitive transition of the urban fabric is in order. Remember, Old River Rd. south of the MAB will be unchanged and is not a part of this development.

While it's still too early to judge without fully rendered details, I'm a bit apprehensive of where this whole project is going.

^Do you have similar concerns about Stonebridge?

Do you have similar concerns about Stonebridge?

To tell the truth, no.

First of all, I have no problem with has been constructed so far. Secondly, it's pretty much a clean slate, and from what I can tell from their plans, they're pretty much working on the basis of infill, a concept that I wish more people would embraced when considering urban renewal.

 

Lastly, I think Carney/Corna have a greater grasp of what the Flats was/is/should be more than these other players. They realize that there's plenty there already that's good, and that the city isn't a festering sewer that needs to be scoured clean with bleach to make it better.