this sucks

 

im really losin any faith that cleveland will get anything right nowadays. it amazes me that they cant find architects in this city or urban planners that can build urban properly. thinkin about this city's history how did it end up where its so hard to build urban?

 

 

seems like the powers that be want cleveland to be one giant suburb

 

if eaton wants to build some corporate campus crap they can leave ohio all together with. what ever happened to developing the lakefront with residential? are eaton's employees really that depressed with working in a skyscraper on superior ave?

Yeah, let's get rid of Eaton. let's also get rid of Progressive because they are in the burbs. And Hyland Software, those Westlake bastards, get out of this region now!!

I agree with 3231. I think we all need to take a chill pill. I'm not wild about Eaton's part of the project, but I'm backing off my radical stance from earlier, about wanting to tear down a new Eaton HQ if built as proposed. I still dislike it, but maybe I'm in a better place personally than I was a few months ago. If the rest of the lakefront is built as a corporate campus, then I may return to radical stance. Otherwise, I'm OK with this FEB plan -- especially the part south of the tracks.

I hope no one will be apologetic or backpeddling about expressing an opinion or wanting something better. Or shall we roll over an embrace suburban stucco palaces on the river b/c we are brainwashed to lap up any kind of development (and the predictable implication you must hate Cleveland if you speak up) Yeah, yeah, I get it, there are are stakeholders on here. But for g's sake lets not screw it up. 

Maybe I am brainwashed because I think a $500M mixed use development with a quarter mile public boardwalk, 500 new residences, a new full service grocery store, movie theaters, restaurants, a public park/festival grounds and a retained fortune 500 company's headquarters in the place of a decaying and abandoned entertainment district is a good thing.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

(yes, I know it is a run on sentence)

I agree with 3231. I think we all need to take a chill pill. I'm not wild about Eaton's part of the project, but I'm backing off my radical stance from earlier, about wanting to tear down a new Eaton HQ if built as proposed. I still dislike it, but maybe I'm in a better place personally than I was a few months ago.

 

I have to agree.  I love Cleveland and I don't think we should settle for crap, but at the end of the day, the tenant gets what the tenant wants, and they're either going to get what they want or they'll leave.  We need to keep their tax dollars here rather than Independence or North Carolina.

*sigh*

 

why should we not be up in arms about this being done right? we are already sufferin with the mistakes this city has made in the past and not only us but future generations will have to suffer with this one.

 

 

why should 1 company put this city's development in a strangle hold?

 

eaton moving to independence or north carolina isnt gonna keep a family in kinsman out of poverty

 

we should just accept anything because "hey! its development in cleveland!"

 

i give up

 

Barneyboy...I cannot believe you are that big a fan of Stonebridge.  From my perspective, the buildings that have been constructed so far ignore the street and are hardly pedestrian friendly due to first floor parking garages, blank walls and had to find entrances.  Also, while I have only been inside on a couple of occasions, I was very surprised by the quality of the workmanship and materials used.  I was also surprised that they owners were allowing a business to be run from an apartment (it was not a home office...it was a residential apartment being used as an office) or were not bright enough to know this was going on.

 

If the designs and construction of FEB in any way mimics Stronebridge than I will be very disappointed.

"Eaton moving to Independence or North Carolina isn't gonna keep a family in Kinsman out of poverty"

 

Well it ain't gonna help.

I prefer the original siteplan.  The massing was more in scale with all other buildings in the development.  The typical street grid was somewhat maintained.  I see their point of creating the curved streets to open up views to the river.  Well, if the original grid design was maintained people would not see the river at every turn of their head.  So the 'want' to see the river would draw peeps down to the boardwalk. Someone may say to themselves "hmm i'd like to see the river.  Oh look there it is.  I'm on my way to other things"  instead of " hmm i'd like to see the river.  I'll take a walk down to the boardwalk."  I guess the point is that the older plans require more pedestrian traffic throughout the neighborhood to get to a 'destination'

 

The latest siteplan release is a step closer to the project getting underway at least.  The whole Eaton concept makes my cringe though.  I just don't see the point in going through all the expense to reconfigure the loop to accomodate the Eaton campus...cringe again.  Maybe if they left the loop alone, they could squeeze inside the existing loop.  Hey more density that way right?

*sigh*

 

why should we not be up in arms about this being done right? we are already sufferin with the mistakes this city has made in the past and not only us but future generations will have to suffer with this one.

 

 

why should 1 company put this city's development in a strangle hold?

 

eaton moving to independence or north carolina isnt gonna keep a family in kinsman out of poverty

 

we should just accept anything because "hey! its development in cleveland!"

 

i give up

 

The Kinsman comment smacks of a silver-bulletism. There are no single projects that will lift Kinsman and all the other impoverished neighborhoods out of the mire. The fact that this development is accessible from Kinsman via the Blue/Green lines makes its unskilled employment (restaurant jobs, hotel jobs, janitorial, etc.) more accessible to that neighborhood than many other core city projects. Those type of jobs get the impoverished on the first rungs of the ladder of success. How far they want to climb is up to them.

 

And don't give up just because others aren't as upset about something as you. Keep fighting for what you believe in.

 

And I'm not supporting this plan because I'm hungry for development in Cleveland. I'm supporting it because I think the city will be better with it than without. There is a wonderful thing in this nation called compromise, as no two parties (let alone all the great opinions here, at the planning commission, city council, the downtown development corporations, and more) will ever agree on everything. At some point you have to say that we agree on enough and are not willing to fight anymore in order to let something happen. Given the large number of opinions that weigh in on a project of this magnitude, and the fact they will not agree with yours or mine, you can keep fighting or step back. Indeed, there are also ways to step away from one fight while still fighting for better. We are, after all, constantly evolving from one project to the next.

Barneyboy...I cannot believe you are that big a fan of Stonebridge.  From my perspective, the buildings that have been constructed so far ignore the street and are hardly pedestrian friendly due to first floor parking garages, blank walls and had to find entrances.

I'm not a BIG fan of Stonebridge, I'm actually more encouraged by their future plans and the idea of using existing structures than with what they've built so far.

While it's true their buildings thus far aren't oriented to the street, consider the fact that they're built hard up against the viaduct on one side, and on a steep grade on the other. These first phase buildings were admittingly built for the view, not for a walkable neighborhood.

But from what I've seen on the Stonebridge thread of future plans, they seem to be including human elements, all this within the existing street grid with small scale structures in a compact real city context, something FEB seems to be moving away from.

The other thing I'm hoping for is when we start seeing finished details from the architects for FEB is a greater consideration for the surrounding area and that the flats is the flats, not Las Vegas.

Is it just me or do people not understand the issues that the Eaton site faces? This site will never be integrated into a large development because it is surrounded on three sides but a multi-story concrete wall and a set of rr tracks on the 4th side. I also don't see why people are saying that the rest of the lakefront will end up looking like a corporate campus. Where did anyone ever suggest that it would?

 

To me, that biggest issue with this plan is that there is not an ga between the phase II and phase I at the tracks that would allow a street to be built through those tracks at a later date to integrate it with future neighborhood development to the north in the port land. The RTA loop is a dead spot and it will remain that way unless tens of millions of dollars are spent to remedy it. I'd rather spend those tens of millions on other projects.

There's very much to like about this project and I think most here are thrilled it's finally moving forward.  The devil's in the details and, frankly, nobody's going to be totally happy.  There are aspects than could be tweaked. I just hope the residential end stays strong and, indeed, the fact the projection has raised from 300 to around 430 multi units is highly promising.  With the diversity of entertainment, grocery, public space and even a hotel (sure wish the WHD had one!) in addition to the direct connection by/integration into rapid rail transit (how often can we say that in Cleveland or Ohio!?) means there's really little bad anyone w/ a right mind should be able to find with this program.  And in fact, there's all indication it will jump-start other programs on nearby vacant plots to FEB's north and east, esp when the Port gets fully relocated.

 

 

To me, that biggest issue with this plan is that there is not an gap between the phase II and phase I at the tracks that would allow a street to be built through those tracks at a later date to integrate it with future neighborhood development to the north in the port land. The RTA loop is a dead spot and it will remain that way unless tens of millions of dollars are spent to remedy it. I'd rather spend those tens of millions on other projects.

 

I agree with you on all counts. 

 

The only time any non-Eaton person is going to even see the Eaton campus is when they're riding the WFL over the elevated loop and looking down, away from the lake and river views.  As long as there's ped acess over the tracks, Eaton's design simply doesn't matter to the rest of the project.

 

By the way, from eyeballing the new plans against the satellite photo X posted, it does look like the WFL loop is pushed further north, no?  I guess that's fine if Eaton/Wolstein want to dump there money into that, but there is no way in hell I'd support public dollars for that.

To me, that biggest issue with this plan is that there is not an gap between the phase II and phase I at the tracks that would allow a street to be built through those tracks at a later date to integrate it with future neighborhood development to the north in the port land. The RTA loop is a dead spot and it will remain that way unless tens of millions of dollars are spent to remedy it. I'd rather spend those tens of millions on other projects.

 

I agree with you on all counts. 

 

The only time any non-Eaton person is going to even see the Eaton campus is when they're riding the WFL over the elevated loop and looking down, away from the lake and river views.  As long as there's ped acess over the tracks, Eaton's design simply doesn't matter to the rest of the project.

 

By the way, from eyeballing the new plans against the satellite photo X posted, it does look like the WFL loop is pushed further north, no?  I guess that's fine if Eaton/Wolstein want to dump there money into that, but there is no way in hell I'd support public dollars for that.

 

yeah i saw how the port land was totally blocked off, but we're still in early planning -- all hope is not lost here. for example, there could easily be a route north of the proposed front st roundabout allowed for a road. the residential building could be split up, or better yet & more dramatically the road could either go thru or under the building. since the rapid/eaton blocks off so much port land access just to the east, the city is going to need to stay active here and stay on wolstein to keep a right of way open to future port redevelopment.

 

certainly that is a good example of one of the important details that will keep future lakefront development successful.

 

re stonebridge: i dont think stonebridge is a good comparison to feb. they wanted bodies living down there and they wanted them immediately. it was all unproven at the time (for cleveland realty in general, of course we all knew it would be a success!). as others said, the next phases will add the city living amenities. i still think that is the correct strategy for stonebridge. otoh feb will mostly go up all at once.

 

 

X,

 

At first, I didn't agree with you regarding how the streets meet the park and the waterfront. Now that you reposted them, I agree with you. I don't dislike the new waterfront design, but I liked the old one better (except for the phase two buildings).

 

What I would really like along the waterfront is closer to what is in the Lakefront Plans renderings, or what was already there, but with a continuous public boardwalk, a couple more access points, and more density. 

 

I have had this vision of the Cuyahoga from the Lakefront all the way to W. 3rd street being lined with continuous public boardwalk, and buildings fronting directly onto that boardwalk (with a few interruptions like the OC hillside and appropriately placed and sized access points, of course).  There would be retail and entertainment along the boardwalk level of some of it- especially through this, the "heart" of the Flats.  Other parts would be residential, services, or office at the ground floor, but all of it would be mid rise apts or office with balconies and roof decks on the upper stories.  It think this would "frame" the Cuyahoga, create a unique sense of place unlike anywhere else in the world, and allow density without overwhelming the Flats with large buildings.

 

 

X your idea is a fantastic one. I am also a very big propenent of a boardwalk lined with diverse retail, residential, and entertainment components. Think Ocean City MD with better architecture and a distinctly Cleveland look and vibe; like a slice of Euclid Beach revisited. And a forward thinking plan could allow for future growth and tie in to the towpath and surrounding neighborhoods to create a veritable highway for foot and bike traffic.

 

I'll say it a million times if I have to, the city lacks the kind of waterfront "magnet" destination found in virtually every other coastal city. Having a movie theatre and a Heinen's is nice, even necessary, but not exactly mind blowing.

 

New residential and office space alone won't create a destination spot, in fact I am dreading the possibility of a FEB plan that is so reliant on office space that an office space "dead zone" feel will haunt us after the 9-5 workday.

 

Right now something as simple as a diverse, well planned boardwalk would instantly help create that outdoor, walkable place where everyone goes; a hangout where you just have to be when winter finally ends.

why should we not be up in arms about this being done right? we are already sufferin with the mistakes this city has made in the past and not only us but future generations will have to suffer with this one.

Back in the 60's a wise man who knew what was best for New York better than anybody else wanted to build the cross-Manhattan expressway. But there was this little old lady named Jane Jacobs, who knew nothing,and a few of her neighbors (who also knew nothing) said NO. Today, the cast iron district and SOHO exist.

Here in Cleveland, a county engineer named Albert Porter, wanted to build a feeway through a two-bit duck pond, but some people with contrasting opinions said "think about what you're doing". Today we still have the Shaker Lakes.

Don't think for a minute that you have to settle for crap. Neither Wolstein or Eaton want crap either, but enough noise from people with a different opinion CAN make a difference.

 

Remember, nobody objected when we build railroads on our lakefront, and that is OUR legacy! Don't think for a minute that we shouldn't critique, it's a healthy necessary process to getting what we want.

so let me ask.  Who here has picked up a phone, a pen or sent an email to express their concerns?

why should we not be up in arms about this being done right? we are already sufferin with the mistakes this city has made in the past and not only us but future generations will have to suffer with this one.

Back in the 60's a wise man who knew what was best for New York better than anybody else wanted to build the cross-Manhattan expressway. But there was this little old lady named Jane Jacobs, who knew nothing,and a few of her neighbors (who also knew nothing) said NO. Today, the cast iron district and SOHO exist.

Here in Cleveland, a county engineer named Albert Porter, wanted to build a feeway through a two-bit duck pond, but some people with contrasting opinions said "think about what you're doing". Today we still have the Shaker Lakes.

Don't think for a minute that you have to settle for crap. Neither Wolstein or Eaton want crap either, but enough noise from people with a different opinion CAN make a difference.

 

Remember, nobody objected when we build railroads on our lakefront, and that is OUR legacy! Don't think for a minute that we shouldn't critique, it's a healthy necessary process to getting what we want.

 

I'm having a hard time connecting similarities between the shaker lakes highway/lower manhattan expressway and FEB.

so let me ask.  Who here has picked up a phone, a pen or sent an email to express their concerns?

Although I only just read about this newest development just yesterday, you've got a great point! I plan on locating an e-mail address or phone number and do just that.

If anybody on UO has Wolstein's e-mail POST IT! Then there'll be no excuses for them such as apathy among the public.

Look what happened when the Browns bolted for Baltimore. The NFL offices had to shut down their fax machine!

I'm having a hard time connecting similarities between the shaker lakes highway/lower manhattan expressway and FEB.

Somebody wants to build something, and you don't like the way it's being built, say something! Then the wrong thing doesn't get built. That was the point of that illustration.

I for one don't have a problem with the FEB land use plans.

Can anyone guess how building "7a" the 20 story building will look in comparison to the National Terminals building?

One thing I would like to change is that building 4 is one seriously long horizontal wall facing the riverfront - it would be nice to see it broken into two or even three smaller units with pedestrian stairways/access from the interior greenspace down to the riverfront level. Otherwise that interior greenspace has a great view of nothing... Hopefully the architecture will break up that long building into more appropriate sized facades and not just one boring wall of balconies...

Can anyone guess how building "7a" the 20 story building will look in comparison to the National Terminals building?

 

Best guess:

 

Shoreway westbound:

 

Shoreway eastbound:

 

Only on urban ohio would I get a scale model, thanks MayDay.

 

I would have answered it, "yeah, about the same height"

mayday very cool. thx

Talk about some great views if that building is built.

For some reason, this news is making me very excited. I was in Hawaii earlier this year and something about this latest rendering reminds me very much of the Waikiki area, where there is a huge mix of retail/residence/hotel as well as park space and other stuff. The thing that I like most is that it will be the kind of area that will attract those who would otherwise fear a place like the Avenue District, since it's just one block of development, whereas this project is an entire peninsula full of stuff to do. Someone said the same thing a few pages back and I totally agree. The supermarket will help the Warehouse District residents, the movie theatre will be interesting, hoping it does not take away from Cedar Lee, but hoping that it does offer independent films. The park areas, the boutiques, the hotel, the office space, etc.... just thinking about the fact that it will ALL be new and not one rehab or one new buildout amongst decay will make the project look good to those who can't fully stomach urban living. I don't think I'd ever want to live in this area vs. extreme urban offerings in Cleveland, but I can pretty much assure you that this is the place I'll be shopping at, hanging out at, eating at, taking pictures at, biking, jogging, and relaxing. I think the best thing about this is the # of new buildings/structures that will be built. I would love to see this and Pesht succeed simultaneously so all the skunks who left Cleveland for similar offerings elsewhere will wish they hadn't left! GO CLEVELAND !!!!!!!! It's Cleveland's turn at bat!

It's Cleveland's turn at bat!

Now if that ain't the quote of the year!

 

Now lets hope we don't strike out or get picked of at First Base!  Personally, I I'd like to see us hit it out of the park, but a triple would tickle my fancy.  Hell, top floor condo's peaked my interest.

That's enough metaphors from you for one day!

By the way, the owners of Hush/Heaven & Earth nightclub have abandoned their plans to relocate to the old Club Moda on West 25th. Instead, they are seeking to stay in the Flats and want to move down Old River Road to the closed Odeon concert club. Councilman Cimperman called me about earlier today and was very happy to report it.

 

I'll have an article about it in Thursday's paper, though I didn't have much time to get more information than that considering we were just about to put the papers to bed for this week when Joe called with the news.

I hope they get moving on the razing of the all abandoned buildings. Until last fall I used to feel fine walking/jogging alone weekend mornings during the day throughout the EB flats. Now it appears people have broken into the buildings and I got definite creeps this morning. I certainly hope they make sure no one is in there when they start demo-it seemed clear there was a presence in at least one of the buildings. I wonder how Warehouse District leadership feels about Heaven and Earth moving in to Odean. They sure pitched a fit when Hustler was mentioned for that location. Somethiing about it being real near to where people live-oddly some people did not like the sounds of that.

Could anyone give me a quick summary of what happened to the flats?  A friend and I went there recently for the first time in years and it was disturbing to see all the bars/restaurants that used to be near Peabody's Down Under simply gone.  That seemed like it was a fairly profitable strip.  What happened??

 

 

 

Too many drunks. Too many fights. Too many drownings. Too many homeless. Too many shootings. Too many crimes. Not enough police.

 

Meanwhile the Warehouse District up the hill began taking away customers, especially those who weren't 20-something and interested in only in getting drunk and laid. East Bank restaurants began closing, leaving just the bars and nightclubs. Soon several of them began to close. Although the West Bank of the Flats is pretty much intact, the bad news of the East Bank has hurt it. Also, hurting it is some of the same lawlessness (see The Mirage club) that killed the East Bank.

^^Also, nothing was really done to save/fix it over the past 5 years or so, since there began rumblings of completely rebuilding it from Wolstein...which we are now just about ready to see.  This thread primarily goes over the new plans merely in a condensed 54 pages of discussion!

It seems like any nightlife/entertainment district goes through phases - not just Cleveland either. The Flats were hot and then they weren't. W.6th in the Warehouse District is hot now. E. 4th is creating strong competetion, and maybe in the next few years it will kill W.6th. And then who knows? Maybe my generation (who never partied in the Flats) will be going... "what happened to the Warehouse District? That was such a hopping place to be back when I went downtown."

 

When it comes to entertainment/nightlife destinations, they all go through cycles.

Some go through shorter-longer cycles though, and not all go through such dramatic peaks and valleys. The Flats East Bank in the early 1990s was bumper-to-bumper cars, elbow-to-elbow people. It was crazy and fun. Now it's all gone, at least on the East Bank.

 

Times Square in NYC or Soho in London had their seedy years in the 1970s but they weren't completely demolished to make way for something new.

 

Some here may forget that the Flats East Bank had a longer life than just its glory years of the 1980s and 1990s. It was a counter-culture place of bars and hangouts as far back as the 1960s, and was the place where longshoremen got their beers and shots of whiskey in the preceding 150 years.

 

Some can argue that, since the West Bank is still going and that there are some bars on the East Bank, that the party-central atmosphere never really went away. But the center of gravity is certainly more diffuse these days, spread among the WHD, Ohio City, East Fourth, Tremont etc.

It seems like any nightlife/entertainment district goes through phases - not just Cleveland either. The Flats were hot and then they weren't. W.6th in the Warehouse District is hot now. E. 4th is creating strong competetion, and maybe in the next few years it will kill W.6th. And then who knows? Maybe my generation (who never partied in the Flats) will be going... "what happened to the Warehouse District? That was such a hopping place to be back when I went downtown."

 

When it comes to entertainment/nightlife destinations, they all go through cycles.

 

 

Just like the gaza strip  on vincent st.

^Okay, before everybody goes crazy with that one I think she meant to post "Just like the Gaza Strip 'or' Vincent Street".  And what I believe she is referring to is Cedar Center in University Hts and South Euclid which is going to be demolished and redeveloped.  It was often kiddingly referred to as the Gaza Strip due to its many Jewish businesses and patrons.  I believe the Vincent Street reference is to Short Vincent between East 9th and 6th which at one time was a hopping entertainment district in Cleveland.

Edsiou is male - and you're worried about "everybody" going crazy? As in, does it get any more incoherent :?

^Mayday...thanks...I don't know exactly why I assumed he was a female.  Anyway, you are correct...I thought that post would have everybody scratching their heads as usual.

From PD Business Diary today:

 

State to help Flats project

 

The Cleveland-Cuyahoga County Port Authority will get $1 million from the state to help with road improvements for a major redevelopment along the east bank of the Flats. To make way for a residential, office and retail development by the Wolstein Group and Fairmount Properties, the Port Authority will move and rebuild some roads and sewers. The Ohio Department of Development, which awarded the $1 million grant, also will give $200,000 to ViewRay Inc., a Florida biomedical company that is moving to Oakwood to develop its image-guided radiation treatment system. The department announced both grants this week.

I love this project. I'm following it as closely as I can now. I'm moving to the W. 9th area in a couple weeks, so this construction is going to be happening in my backyard, practically. I would like to hopefully stick around until its finished. I think this (and other projects downtown) are going to turn the city around.

 

I hope.

 

I created a new topic elsewhere. I probably should've just put it here. I want to get involved down there and make damned sure these projects get finished.

Welcome!!!!

It is just hard to believe in this day in age that a major corporation doesn't see the benefit of being part of a city.  A city it has been in for many decades.  Independence?  Give me a break.

It is just hard to believe in this day in age that a major corporation doesn't see the benefit of being part of a city.  A city it has been in for many decades.  Independence?  Give me a break.

 

I doubt that they want to go to Independence. I'd bet that they are just using it as leverage.

$11.44 million for 8.8 acres of downtown waterfront property seems like a steal.

This whole Eaton thing still ticks me off from an architectural standpoint. Isn't there ANYthing they can do to make this into an urban environment? I find it hard to believe, Waterfront Loop notwithstanding.