Believlander... your not buying into that gated community crap are you?  Some idiot in cleveland.com posted that.  It's not happening.

 

 

And even when it's reported to have happened, it sometimes hasn't.  I remember the geniuses at the PD describing the expensive townhouse development on Clinton by 32nd street as "gated" because the parking area in back was secured.  Which would of course mean that anyone with a garage door lived in a "gated" community (of one family).

 

Anyhoo, this is really exciting news- a big vote of economic confidence from someone outside the region.

A few musings...

 

1. and 2. You're preaching to the choir.

3. It won't be a gated community, re-read the posts above.

3a. Love how you paint all the "aloof/elitist highrise population" with the same "shallow, greedy, consumption driven life" brush.

4. Okay, so Wolstein should abandon all of this, liquidate his company and make solar panels?

5. 15 years - that's the current abatement period. We'd all love to wave a magic wand and improve the schools overnight but we should cease all high-end development until the schools have improved?

6. Uhh, near west side neighborhood... like next to the West Side Market?

7. Welcome to the forum.

I don't know about a gated community, but the city did vacate the streets making all that land privately owned.

I cannot believe we are even wasting our time on  this thread (when there is so much more substantive and exciting elements to discuss) with this "gated community" bs which was apparently started by some moron on Cleveland.com.  The discussions on Cleveland.com are "elementary school" (in fact the first grade before anybody really knows how to read) when compared to this forum which are more like a post graduate class in urban affairs.  Get your news (and speculation...it is much sexier here) at UO.

I don't know about a gated community, but the city did vacate the streets making all that land privately owned.

 

Much of it is actually owned by the Cleveland-Cuyahoga County Port Authority. Wolstein owns some small pieces here and there.

[7. Welcome to the forum.

 

Hahaha .. anything else? :-D

From cleveland.com

 

Five-star hotel headed to Flats east bank

 

It's a friggin 5 star hotel. You people in Cleveland must be pretty d@mn modest because if this happend in Cincinnati we would all be jumping up and down and saying it's AMAZING news followed by claims that this is proof we are the best midwestern city.

For the most part I would say that Clevelanders on this board are pretty modest; with the exception of one that I can think of. :wink: This is something they can be proud of though: Seattle, Scottsdale, Mammoth Mountain, Washington D.C., New York, Paris, and Cleveland. I like the sound of that!

I say it's about flipping time. Cleveland needs more of this type of higher-class development. The city of Cleveland itself needs more higher-income people to vary up its economy a bit more, I think. It's great that the city has good value in terms of savings on the pocketbook, etc, but I really think that in order for the city to advance to the next level, more upper class people need to start getting amenities that cater to them as well. Not at the expense of the lower class, mind you, but in addition to.

I say it's about flipping time. Cleveland needs more of this type of higher-class development. The city of Cleveland itself needs more higher-income people to vary up its economy a bit more, I think. It's great that the city has good value in terms of savings on the pocketbook, etc, but I really think that in order for the city to advance to the next level, more upper class people need to start getting amenities that cater to them as well. Not at the expense of the lower class, mind you, but in addition to.

 

I don't disagree with your idea, but I disagree with your rationale. The city needs to serve its current (and future) downtown residents, throwing in a 5-star hotel and juju's fine jewelry isn't going to do much for us normie yuppies who just want basic services. Last I check the upper class still needs grocers, basic retail and whatnot

Of course it does, and I'm not negating any of that.

 

I'm not necessarily going to go into a long, off-topic spiel, but my statement comes from my observation of Cleveland's long-standing image of itself as a predominantly blue-collar city. It's not necessarily a bad thing, but I think that, in order for this to change and go BEYOND where it is today, the city has to become more welcoming to those who live in the upper-classes of society. I think Clevelanders can sometimes be hostile to upper class people because they view them as snooty, snobs, etc, because Cleveland has for so long been a working-class city, but I'm saying that cities like Cleveland actually NEED people like them because without the upper class, a city's economy isn't as well-rounded as it needs to be to progress and expand into the future.

 

To bring it back around, I was just saying it's nice, in a way, (though I myself am only a lowly college student, certainly not upper class) to see a project of this caliber because it caters to the upper class, and Cleveland needs projects like this, regardless of what one's views are of the upper class. I'm open to debate on this opinion, of course. But again, I don't want to go too off topic and get hit by MayDay's skeet shooting. :-D

I agree with Htsguy!!

 

lets move on and continue or popsitive discussion.

 

Hopefully someone from Wolstein will join OU and wee can get direct updates. 

I agree with Htsguy!!

 

lets move on and continue or popsitive discussion.

 

Hopefully someone from Wolstein will join OU and wee can get direct updates. 

 

Have you been drinking already today :drunk:?  I had to decypher what that was supposed to say!  (Sorry, couldn't resist)

Here's some additional info on the Starwood Capital Group.  It's pretty damn impressive, and note that it is indeed related to Starwood Hotels & Resorts.  Would be pretty cool if K&D could line up Le Meridien for Ameritrust, they've always been solid:

 

Hotel Group

 

Starwood Capital has historically been one of the most aggressive and successful acquirers of individual hotels and hotel companies on a global basis. Starwood Capital is well known for its 1995 acquisition and subsequent recapitalization, reorganization and expansion of Starwood Hotels & Resorts Worldwide, Inc. (NYSE: HOT “Starwood Hotels”), a Fortune 500 company, with ownership of brands such as Westin, Sheraton, W Hotels, The St. Regis, Le Meridien, The Luxury Collection and Four Points by Sheraton. Mr. Sternlicht, as Chairman and CEO of Starwood Hotels between 1995 and May of 2005, led the transformation of Starwood Hotels from an overleveraged, liquidating REIT into a thriving global enterprise of more than 115,000 employees, with a total enterprise value in excess of $18 billion, including more than 800 hotels system-wide in 80 countries.

 

Mr. Sternlicht was the driving force behind the acquisition of Westin Hotels, ITT Sheraton and Le Meridien. He is also credited with the development of the W brand and the expansion of The St. Regis from a single hotel to a global hotel brand representing the ultimate in luxury hotels.

 

When Mr. Sternlicht left Starwood Hotels, Starwood Capital returned to hotel investing. Through the first half of 2005, Starwood Capital directly made more than $2.1 billion of hotel investments. Since the launch of the first dedicated hotel fund in late 2005, Starwood Capital has led an additional $5 billion of hotel-related investments, including the $3.2 billion acquisition of Groupe Taittinger/Société du Louvre (“SDL”). One of Europe’s largest hotel networks, SDL has a unique collection of 14 luxury hotels and a portfolio of 800 budget hotels throughout Europe.

 

Today, Starwood Capital is developing and managing a number of hospitality and leisure related brands. Starwood Capital has hired senior hospitality industry executives to help develop and launch these brands, which include:

 

LUXURY SEGMENT

• 1 Hotels and Resorts – an eco focused luxury hotel brand

• Baccarat Hotels and Resorts – A sparkling five star brand focused on resort

• Crillon – A six star brand offering lavish accommodations while retaining an intimate atmosphere of a private residence.

 

Starwood Capital oversees the operation of the following existing brands.

 

BUSINESS SEGMENT

• Concorde Hotels and Resorts

 

BUDGET SEGMENT

• Campanile – Louvre Hotel Group’s leading two star chain.

• Kyriad – offers a balance between quality and the charm of diversity.

• Premiére Classe – rooms are available at a single price for one, two or three people.

 

RESTAURANT SEGMENT

• B.R. Guest – A New York based restaurant and bar operator with 16 outlets, including the Blue Water Grill, Dos Caminos, Blue Fin and other brands

 

A 5-star hotel?  Guess my prayer for a more high-end Flats has been answered.

Vegas Convention              -             

 

 

Las Vegas center abuzz as convention traffic floods in

Posted by Michelle Jarboe May 18, 2008 12:11PM

Categories: ICSC, Real estate, Retail

 

 

Michelle Jarboe/The Plain Dealer

The Forest City Enterprises booth at the Las Vegas Convention Center is one of the largest at this year's deal-making conference.Workers hustled Saturday to finish elaborate booths where developers, retailers and real estate companies will host meetings and make deals this week.

 

More at cleveland.com http://www.cleveland.com

Here's a little info about the 1 Hotel and Residences that will start being built in NYC this summer:

 

http://www.observer.com/2008/eco-friendly-bryant-park-hotel-break-ground-august

Take the casino discussions somewhere else, folks.

Here's what the new 1 Hotel & Residences-Cleveland is planned to look like:

 

http://www.hotelchatter.com/story/2008/5/21/112051/041/hotels/More_1_Hotels_Are_Coming_To_New_York_and_Cleveland

Here's what the new 1 Hotel & Residences-Cleveland is planned to look like:

 

http://www.hotelchatter.com/story/2008/5/21/112051/041/hotels/More_1_Hotels_Are_Coming_To_New_York_and_Cleveland

 

I know its just a blog, and I usually criticize people for similar comments, but Baltimore, a High roller?

i think the author was from baltimore and was just plugging his city--trying to get one of these new fancy "green" hotels built there....i posted it cause it was the only image i've ever seen of what the hotel is supposed to look like.

Here's what the new 1 Hotel & Residences-Cleveland is planned to look like:

 

http://www.hotelchatter.com/story/2008/5/21/112051/041/hotels/More_1_Hotels_Are_Coming_To_New_York_and_Cleveland

 

err, "yes, that's right, cleveland?"

 

you know what? ef you andrew c, whoever you are. go report on hotels in your pet cities and leave the cleve out of it next time, mmm kay guy? ya chouch. sheesh.

Here's some additional info on the Starwood Capital Group.  It's pretty damn impressive, and note that it is indeed related to Starwood Hotels & Resorts.  Would be pretty cool if K&D could line up Le Meridien for Ameritrust, they've always been solid:

 

This is 100% incorrect.  They are not related in any form, fashion or shape!  I don't see a Le Meridien for Cleveland, nor do I want one BEFORE a W Hotel, Westin, Aloft or Element.  Hell I would even take a convention sized Sheraton before a LM.  According to my sources, it won't be a starwood or a starwood capital property at the AmeriTrust site.

 

Moving on and back to the Flats East Bank.

 

 

Here's some additional info on the Starwood Capital Group.  It's pretty damn impressive, and note that it is indeed related to Starwood Hotels & Resorts.  Would be pretty cool if K&D could line up Le Meridien for Ameritrust, they've always been solid:

 

This is 100% incorrect.  They are not related in any form, fashion or shape!  I don't see a Le Meridien for Cleveland, nor do I want one BEFORE a W Hotel, Westin, Aloft or Element.  Hell I would even take a convention sized Sheraton before a LM.  According to my sources, it won't be a starwood or a starwood capital property at the AmeriTrust site.

 

Moving on and back to the Flats East Bank.

 

 

 

As far as my 5th Grade reading level teaches me, they were related: http://www.starwoodcapital.com/hotel.html

 

 

Here's some additional info on the Starwood Capital Group.  It's pretty damn impressive, and note that it is indeed related to Starwood Hotels & Resorts.  Would be pretty cool if K&D could line up Le Meridien for Ameritrust, they've always been solid:

 

This is 100% incorrect.  They are not related in any form, fashion or shape!  I don't see a Le Meridien for Cleveland, nor do I want one BEFORE a W Hotel, Westin, Aloft or Element.  Hell I would even take a convention sized Sheraton before a LM.  According to my sources, it won't be a starwood or a starwood capital property at the AmeriTrust site.

 

Moving on and back to the Flats East Bank.

 

 

 

As far as my 5th Grade reading level teaches me, they were related: http://www.starwoodcapital.com/hotel.html

 

 

 

Correct, Pope.  Starwood Hotels & Resorts founded by the CEO of Starwood Capital, Barry Sternlicht,  hence the whole "Starwood" commonality.  W, Aloft, etc. are the babies of  Sternlicht.  While he's no longer involved in Starwood Hotels & Resorts, he's gotten back into the hotel business with 1, Baccarat, and Crillon.  And with all that he's learned with W and the rest of the Starwood hotels, I'm betting this will be out of the park. 

 

So let's say maybe 50% incorrect.  :wink:

From todays PD:

 

Will project be magic for the Flats? Magic-themed Flats project no illusion

Thursday, May 22, 2008

Michelle Jarboe

Plain Dealer Reporter

Rub your eyes and look again. Is that beer bottle really emptying itself into your glass?

 

Yes it is, but it's not the alcohol tricking you. It's illusionist and comedian Kerry Pollock.

 

Pollock, a Cleveland native, signed a letter of intent Monday to open a magic-themed restaurant and entertainment venue in the Flats, where he began his career about 25 years ago at D'Poos.

 

He revealed the deal this week at an annual retail real estate convention in Las Vegas. His plan will bring a quirky tenant to the eclectic lineup of the $522 million east bank project under development by the Wolstein Group and Fairmount Properties.

 

More at cleveland.com http://www.cleveland.com

This project is really gaining some steam.  I am sure E4th would have loved this concept, but it is nice seeing we are spreading the wealth.

^Hmm...I wonder how long a place like that will last.  Theme restaurants tend to have a  short shelf life, especially if the food is only average.

 

While principals indicated they are not going after "national tenants" (I guess this means chains you find every where) they clearly are not too focused on the "local" right now.  I guess this makes sense at this stage in the ball game but I do hope they have some store and entertainment owners from Cleveland, although I would guess even the more upscale mom and pops (say a store like Details) might have trouble affording the rents I imagine they will be asking.

This project is really gaining some steam.  I am sure E4th would have loved this concept, but it is nice seeing we are spreading the wealth.

 

Oh you mean like Pickwick and Folic??  And the owner is FROM Cleveland, but.....

^Hmm...I wonder how long a place like that will last.  Theme restaurants tend to have a  short shelf life, especially if the food is only average.

 

While principals indicated they are not going after "national tenants" (I guess this means chains you find every where) they clearly are not too focused on the "local" right now.  I guess this makes sense at this stage in the ball game but I do hope they have some store and entertainment owners from Cleveland, although I would guess even the more upscale mom and pops (say a store like Details) might have trouble affording the rents I imagine they will be asking.

 

The key to drawing people downtown, though, besides those that already live there is to have things they can ONLY go to downtown.  Someone from the suburbs isn't gonna go downtown to go to a chain restaurant that they have in their own neighborhood, or one nearby.

as long as he doesn't do that lame silver rings trick, or the old quarter behind my ear trick.

I just hope they hold some retail space for a little bodega. Keep space for some convenience retail in there. Those types of places make a neighborhood much easier to live or work in.

 

I was really hoping that the bookstore was going to be one of those large B&N style bookstores. Too bad.

 

I'm a little worried about the night club prospects. What types of clubs are we are talking about here?

 

I'm assuming that a coffee shop will be a part of FEB. I'd love to see a local place set up shop, but Phoenix already has a location on W.9th. Starbucks? Someone else? 

^Hmm...I wonder how long a place like that will last.  Theme restaurants tend to have a  short shelf life, especially if the food is only average.

 

While principals indicated they are not going after "national tenants" (I guess this means chains you find every where) they clearly are not too focused on the "local" right now.  I guess this makes sense at this stage in the ball game but I do hope they have some store and entertainment owners from Cleveland, although I would guess even the more upscale mom and pops (say a store like Details) might have trouble affording the rents I imagine they will be asking.

 

The key to drawing people downtown, though, besides those that already live there is to have things they can ONLY go to downtown.  Someone from the suburbs isn't gonna go downtown to go to a chain restaurant that they have in their own neighborhood, or one nearby.

 

 

Are you trying to tell me that were not going to be seeing any Friday's, Olive Gardens, or Applebees in FEB?!?!

 

::sarcasm::

About the clubs-don't you remember the PD article? I am bracing for the worst, like fat middle aged white guys dancing in tyes.

 

PD "the FEB will soon be filled with partying accountants" from Ernst and Young....woohoo crank out the 80's hits and start the lame ass party!!! "I think Gary from the mail room is stealing staples....Hey DJ please play Come on Eileen again!!!" yeesh.

 

I would love a Borders. Maybe by "smaller" they don't mean too small, like Borders Express is definitely too small. The Fairlawn store is smaller than most of the other stores, and would be a perfect fit imho.

 

 

 

 

I was really hoping that the bookstore was going to be one of those large B&N style bookstores. Too bad.

 

I'm a little worried about the night club prospects. What types of clubs are we are talking about here?

 

I'm assuming that a coffee shop will be a part of FEB. I'd love to see a local place set up shop, but Phoenix already has a location on W.9th. Starbucks? Someone else? 

:roll: I'm not worried about the clubs, as even people that aren't as cool as urbanohioans deserve a place to enjoy themselves.  I am worried about the bookstore.  I doubt downsized bookstore is the right approach.  I would think if anything it should be larger, with a wider selection and more events programming so that it can attract people to drive past their local B&N or Borders.  I fear if it is a smaller store, that will mean that it will be geared towards the office folks on their lunchbreak, and that means curtailed hours.

I am still up in the air on the size of the bookstore.  Sure, I would like to see a big, full service store.  However, at the same time, that may give the development more of a suburban lifestyle center feal.  Kind of like the big box anchor tenant they all have.  If it is a smaller bookstore, it may have more of a neighborhood feal to it, and also would be paying less in rent and therefore making it less risky of an establishment. 

I've seen both Borders and BN fit in pretty well into urban areas. And the bookstore in Shaker Square (that moved/went out of business, sad) was a nice one.

 

On the question of how it would integrate into the hood, I think it all depends on the architecture/layout of the place. Not that Borders/BN etc are necessarily suburban.

 

A full size/slightly smaller Borders will certainly get my business. And certainly a nautical bookstore would. But I don't see myself coming to the FEB for a small, neighborhood sized place.

Downtown Louisville has a large, 2-story B&N that looks and "feels" (sorry gotribe :wink:) great. It is an anchor location that you can spend time in without neccessarily spending a lot of money. IMHO, any bookstore in the FEB should be the biggest, baddest, bookstore in the region. It should be a bibliophile's wet dream. It should be a destination.

 

Yes, I'm a fan of books. :-D

I think one of the problems with having a larger bookstore, is that these places plain and simply aren't making money anymore.  All of the book store chains are currently losing money hand over fist.  People don't really buy anymore they tend to go in and browse and drink coffee in the cafe then leave.  Music is bought on itunes and books are ordered off the internet (ironic they put all the mom and pops out of business, and now they are getting killed).  I think that whole industry is going to be made over... and I'm not pulling this stuff out of thin air, one of my sister in laws runs one of the big chain store locations and she talks about this all the time.

I believe it.  Just today Barnes & Noble and Borders are rumored to be looking at merging.

I think one of the problems with having a larger bookstore, is that these places plain and simply aren't making money anymore.  All of the book store chains are currently losing money hand over fist.  People don't really buy anymore they tend to go in and browse and drink coffee in the cafe then leave.  Music is bought on itunes and books are ordered off the internet (ironic they put all the mom and pops out of business, and now they are getting killed).  I think that whole industry is going to be made over... and I'm not pulling this stuff out of thin air, one of my sister in laws runs one of the big chain store locations and she talks about this all the time.

 

That is completely believable.  I have stated before the same thing about the movie theatre.  I worry about anything being oversized in this develoment (bookstore, theatre etc) for the fear that it may not work out.  It is so hard to fill a large movie theatre or bookstore space that was custom built for that particular intention.  Smaller retail tenants and outlots can be filled much more easily than large places. 

i worry less about the movie theatre.  Right now people in the immediate vicinity of downtown (downtown, tremont, OC, DS, even Lakewood, Old Brooklyn, etc... and I don't know that population but it has to be fairly substantial), have 2 choices; the horrific tower city cinemas, or valley view.  This place would be way closer and I'm assuming state of the art.  So I think a 10 screen (as shown in the rendering) would actually do pretty well.

i worry less about the movie theatre.  Right now people in the immediate vicinity of downtown (downtown, tremont, OC, DS, even Lakewood, Old Brooklyn, etc... and I don't know that population but it has to be fairly substantial), have 2 choices; the horrific tower city cinemas, or valley view.  This place would be way closer and I'm assuming state of the art.  So I think a 10 screen (as shown in the rendering) would actually do pretty well.

 

I disagree. I think it would be unwise to build anything but an indie/art theatre. The way that industry is going and will continue to shape up in the next 20 years (hell, even 5 years) mainstream movie theatres may soon be a thing of the past.

 

It's a fact, movie theatres are not making money. They are constantly having to find new ways to get people in (ie. dinner theatres, liquor, etc.)

 

I feel like this may be the mentality of many people once this project is done... "If I'm going to spend thousands on a state of the art LCD TV and surround sound system for my brand new FEB loft/condo why would I leave and pay $10 for a movie ticket? I can sit in the comfort of my own living room, have the latest movies piped in from iTunes and other online services or even get a Netflix subscription for $5 a month. I can even eat dinner and have wine while I watch this movie. If my phone rings, I can pause the movie. I don't have to worry about lines, crying kids, etc."

 

I really want to see this project have some great places to go out to and spend time at, but I don't think a movie theatre is the right direction.

I think people will always want a theatre experience... and they indie theatre niche is being filled at the capital on w. 65th.  But that's just my opinion.

I think people will always want a theatre experience... and they indie theatre niche is being filled at the capital on w. 65th.  But that's just my opinion.

 

That's the problem about the theatre, it's a a big "I Think" thing.  It really has the possibility of failure.  The only larger box thing I want to see is the grocery store.  Everyone needs it and it's not downtown yet.  It is one of those general necessities for increasing downtown population.  Movie theatres are not for reasons mcadrenaline listed above.  I jsut fear large empty buildings in the flats due to risky tenants.  What are those places people are going to "run to" cause it's finally downtown the day the development opens.  I really can't say a movie theatre is one of them. 

Well i live downtown and I am pretty fired up about the theatre.  I can now scratch going to movies off my list of reasons for needing to drive my car. The list will now be comprised of golf and visiting parents.

Believe me when I speak for plenty of Ohio City and Tremont residents who would happily go to a nice (operative word, NICE) cinema if it were downtown, instead of hauling arse to Valley View or Cracker Park.

I really try to patronize the TC cinema... it's just that it's well... awful.  Sometimes I still use it just so I can walk, but deep down I hate it.  People still go to movies... LOTS of people still go to movies, it's just that there isn't a decent option unless you want to go to VV.  I agree with Mayday, there are more than enough people in the Urban neighborhoods surrounding downtown to make this viable.  I think it will also create a kick ass venue for the film festival.

And an update of the demo progress:

 

 

Before:

 

After:

 

 

Before:

]

 

After:

 

I loathe Valley View.  Too many prostatots (as my brother calls unaccompanied 13-year olds).  Severance movie theatre is actually really nice.  It's got a decent amount of people, but it's not a zoo, and they've got stadium seating, digital sound, and all that jazz and it's always really clean.  After I move downtown though, I would totally see movies down there.  I just still maintain my view that it shouldn't be gigundous :).  Not sure how many screens would be optimal, but I don't know that it would be necessary (at this point in time) or intelligent to build screens quite as large as the big ones at Valley View.  I'd be for more screens of smaller size so they can still keep a good variety.  Other thought - is it possible to have a movie theatre that shows BOTH indie films and mainstream stuff?  Can those co-exist in peace?

 

Oh, and nice pics, MayDay :)

There is a decent AMC movie theater in Ridge Park Square that is a good option beyond TC or Valley View.  I can't imagine the need for another large movie theatre in the flats with TC cinemas in decent shape, AMC close by, as well as Valley View (the best theatre in NEO).  Regardless of complaints that people have about some of the patrons of TC cinemas, i've had no different experience there then AMC in Brooklyn.

 

i worry less about the movie theatre.  Right now people in the immediate vicinity of downtown (downtown, tremont, OC, DS, even Lakewood, Old Brooklyn, etc... and I don't know that population but it has to be fairly substantial), have 2 choices; the horrific tower city cinemas, or valley view.  This place would be way closer and I'm assuming state of the art.  So I think a 10 screen (as shown in the rendering) would actually do pretty well.