I really hope they keep the original brick pavers in place. Those are battle tested and should last forever!!

 

Anyone else notice how chincy the new ones are ie East 4th, North Coast Harbor, Progressive Field, etc. etc. Even on Euclid Ave I'm noticing that many are already chipped and damaged.

I really hope they keep the original brick pavers in place. Those are battle tested and should last forever!!

 

Anyone else notice how chincy the new ones are ie East 4th, North Coast Harbor, Progressive Field, etc. etc. Even on Euclid Ave I'm noticing that many are already chipped and damaged.

 

Chincy?  Do you have pictures to support what your saying so we can see a comparison of what you like and what you want the "finished" development to look like?  Or are we being hyper critical?  No chastising you but asking legitmate questions, so I can understand your point of view.

No pictures here, but @ E 4th and Huron across from the Q the pavers on the corner of the sidewalk are filled in with street patch.  :?  :?  :?

Wishful thinking about brick pavers and the discussion of pavers elsewhere in downtown, folks?!?

 

I really hope they keep the original brick pavers in place. Those are battle tested and should last forever!!

 

That was exactly my thought too.  These old bricks are indestructible and look way more awesome than new pavers will ever look.

 

[MayDay, I promise I'm not trying to flout you're authority- I stuck to the FEB area brick street!]

Fair enough, but pavers? :roll:

As renderings continue to change, I’m liking this less and less.  Some of the buildings really look like they belong in the suburbs, especially the proposed building for Eaton.

That's because we've forgotten how to build cities over the last 80 years. After the no-building of the Great Depression and World War II, America emerged and couldn't remember how we built our once-great cities.

^^I'll beat MTS to the punch and point out that we haven't really seen so much in the way of detailed designs, so the aesthetic judgments might be premature.  But you can certainly infer some of the developer's intentions/tastes from even early renderings (which are essentially brochures), and I'm not a huge fan of the festival marketplace vibe.  Personal taste.

^I'll beat MTS to the punch and point out that we haven't really seen so much in the way of detailed designs, so the aesthetic judgments might be premature.  But you can certainly infer some of the developer's intentions/tastes from even early renderings (which are essentially brochures), and I'm not a huge fan of the festival marketplace vibe.  Personal taste.

:wink:

That's because we've forgotten how to build cities over the last 80 years. After the no-building of the Great Depression and World War II, America emerged and couldn't remember how we built our once-great cities.

 

That's depressing.

 

I, too, echo papahopka's opinions. Unless there's a DRASTIC change in the renderings from what they've shown us to what will be built, I'm not a fan, either.

Thanks for beating MTS to that.  I think the original plan was somewhat better in its scale, and maybe style.  With the increase in scale and scope, it seems some of the buildings grew in ways that are not necessarily the best in my opinion.  I would have rather seen some more density and more complete connections to what is already around there and less suburban office/lifestyle looking concepts.  I will be waiting for more detailed renderings of course.....  Still my hopes would be that Eaton would instead go with a visible public square or WHD spot (which I don't see happening).

 

Also, the tower in the second phase bothers me in that it would block the view of the bridge (behind Spinnakers), that is so nice for viewing.

 

Also agree on the brick (no photos or hard proof necessary), but unfortunately for it to be as sterile and "new" feeling as possible, I have a feeling that they will want to consistently use the new brick.     

Between what's actually being built in the Avenue District and what's proposed in FEB, I see very little distinction--as far as design goes. 

 

It appears that most people on this forum really enjoy the Avenue District outcome yet think the FEB renderings are generic.

 

I think when it's all said and done, FEB will stand its own--especially with the WHD, Stonebridge, and the bridges in the background.   

They're both generic, off the shelf designs.  I appreciate neither.  Large developments like this are dumbed down to the lowest common denominator 99% of the time.

^Exactly, and that brings back the point that large projects developed by one developer tend to be less aesthetically pleasing than smaller singular projects.  The latter ussually forces competition between several developers to lure tenants with their own unique design, layout and amenities. 

I would be much more upset if they decided to demo a portion of the CBD to build this type of concept.  But with where it is going and what I predict it will do (that being bring downtown the crowd that strolls around and spends their money in Crocker Park and Legacy Village), I really think the new design is better than the old one.

 

What is best for Cleveland is to draw those high end residents and shoppers who otherwise would not buy (real estate and goods) in the downtown area.  Urban enthusiasts will have their pick of apartment in denser areas with all the development going on. 

 

All that being said, I think it is hard to tell from the rendering what the density will feel like at street level.  Who cares what the FEB looks like from a blimp a couple hundred feet over Ohio City.

They're both generic, off the shelf designs. I appreciate neither. Large developments like this are dumbed down to the lowest common denominator 99% of the time.

 

W28th, thanks for telling it like it is!  You are right on target.

 

As for the FEB project, what it reminds me of is a diminutive version of what I would call a "secondary urban center".  Something like a Crown Center in Kansas City or South Coast Plaza in Costa Mesa.  FEB is all by one developer mostly done at one point in time.  It would be very difficult to give it the look of a true urban core developed by many designers over a century or more.  I know they actually tried something like that at the aforementioned Legacy Village, parcelling it out to different builders to try to fake the diversity one would find in a naturally evolved town center, yet it still looks like what it really is. (Although I lovvvve that cheesecake, lol).  I continue to wonder what will happen to the areas of FEB adjacent to the redevelopment.

weird. whenever I break into hives about the direction this is going I am deemed as hating Cleveland or development or something. lol stucco is exciting.  I think that Ybor City thread opened my eyes as to the origins of my concerns. I lived in lifesyle-mall gone- bad- land for over a decade. and I live in the flats now and feel pretty passionate about the future. 

 

Anyhow. If I were a trillionaire and/or had made the right donation to the right people to grease things for me, I would make Euclid Ave the most amazing urban shopping place in the land. ALL indies save some national clothing retail. East bank would be public green space, some residential and other interesting space.  Maybe, just maybe, Trader Joes would get a space. No gates, no fake brick, no blocking the lake or screwing up rail lines. Stucco life style is not the answer people. Been there, done that, some what doing it. DO BETTER

weird. whenever I break into hives about the direction this is going I am deemed as hating Cleveland or development or something. lol stucco is exciting.  I think that Ybor City thread opened my eyes as to the origins of my concerns. I lived in lifesyle-mall gone- bad- land for over a decade. and I live in the flats now and feel pretty passionate about the future. 

 

Anyhow. If I were a trillionaire and/or had made the right donation to the right people to grease things for me, I would make Euclid Ave the most amazing urban shopping place in the land. ALL indies save some national clothing retail. East bank would be public green space, some residential and other interesting space.  Maybe, just maybe, Trader Joes would get a space. No gates, no fake brick, no blocking the lake or screwing up rail lines. Stucco life style is not the answer people. Been there, done that, some what doing it. DO BETTER

 

No...that happens here? Hadn't noticed it. Rolls eyes. You can say anything you want on Urban Ohio so long as its not critical of Cleveland. Perhaps thats why the city is in the shape its in now...Clevelanders get ultra defensive whenever someone constructively criticizes the city.

sad that those old building are gone for good :(

 

as for the FEB........in its current iteration i think it sucks. the architecture looks extremely generic and the way the layout is they made it less dense than it could be. this is basically cracker park with a couple of mid rises. it doesnt fit in with the surrounding area at all and looks like it belongs in the suburbs. amazing that in downtown cleveland they cant even get it right. this just makes me lose even more faith that cleveland will ever build correctly in the city.

 

instead of having that curved street with the long curved building they couldve taken the same space they are planning and broken it into smaller buildings on a grid...making it MUCH denser

 

what FEB should be is all residential with maybe a couple shops but i know financing wouldve been impossible for that. i remember seein ernst & young's name on the building in stark's rendering for the WHD.......i am puzzled why a company would want to locate itself in suburban downtown instead of right in the heart next to public square. same for any other companies.

 

this is crap

well I am pretty sure someone somewhere will jump in and say it is better than nothing or a rotting east bank. time will only tell. Why not do it right to begin with instead of saying any development is progress? If it is outdated before it is built, or it look like $hit in 10 years (Or less), why bother?

 

I think there is still time to do it better. I see a pile of dirt and some suburban renderings. To me that means there is still time.

Badge, question?...do you include yourself as one of those "constructively criticizing the city"...the reason I ask is that I have re read all 13 of your posts and little of your criticism (and most of your posts are critical) appear "constructive" but generally just negative and trite without adding much to the discussion...maybe that is why regular posters who offer much to this board (great insights and inside information we thrive on here) tend to get into arguments with you.  You seem to be on this board to pick fights.  The posts I enjoy are those that offer facts to support opinions (either negative or positive in terms of Cleveland) and which move the discussion forward is a semi erudite fashion...the name calling you seem to thrive on does not really add much to this board.

Well said, Htsguy. A self-policing board is a beautiful thing. But these posts need to be made off-forum. So take it outside gentlemen (a pm) so we can get back to the Flats East Bank.

That's because we've forgotten how to build cities over the last 80 years. After the no-building of the Great Depression and World War II, America emerged and couldn't remember how we built our once-great cities.

 

That's depressing.

 

I, too, echo papahopka's opinions. Unless there's a DRASTIC change in the renderings from what they've shown us to what will be built, I'm not a fan, either.

 

I agree. It looks so generic for an urban district with actual history. Hopefully the renderings will be adjusted to better serve the area. At least up the density, please!

That's because we've forgotten how to build cities over the last 80 years. After the no-building of the Great Depression and World War II, America emerged and couldn't remember how we built our once-great cities.

 

Indeed.  The curse Detroit's had on this country is deep and far reaching.  I'm, however, at least willing to give FEB the benefit of the doubt; the buildings may not be the architectural wonders we want them to be, but remember they're dense/tightly configured and, in the case of the hotel/res tower: vertical.  The footprint is tiny in the overall scheme of things and will be TOD... all good things.

 

... and the hard fact is: downtown Cleveland's a beggar that really can't afford to be too choosy right now.

 

All good things clvlndr

 

 

... and the hard fact is: downtown Cleveland's a beggar that really can't afford to be too choosy right now.

 

 

I dont know that everyone would agree with this though.  This extremely unique site deserves the right plan, and Cleveland would be stupid to not be somewhat choosy with this.  (Many of us have seen cities (and Cleveland) do this type of thing wrong, which had a lifespan of 10 years)    See Peabody's posts above....... 

I dont know that everyone would agree with this though.  This extremely unique site deserves the right plan, and Cleveland would be stupid to not be somewhat choosy with this.  (Many of us have seen cities (and Cleveland) do this type of thing wrong)    See Peabody's post above....... 

 

I agree with willyboy.

well I am pretty sure someone somewhere will jump in and say it is better than nothing or a rotting east bank. time will only tell. Why not do it right to begin with instead of saying any development is progress? If it is outdated before it is built, or it look like $hit in 10 years (Or less), why bother?

 

I think there is still time to do it better. I see a pile of dirt and some suburban renderings. To me that means there is still time.

 

I do not know how much time there is however.  If a lot of Wolstiens potential commercial tenants have leases expiring at their current locations in the near term, than they need re-assurance that construction is imminent and should be completed by 2010.  Also, the hotel chains that give verbal commitments will back out if to much time is taken.  Really, I think there is an extreme case of urgency here in the next month or so.  This would be different if it were a spec project, but obviously in the economy we live and work in today, that is not possible. 

well I am pretty sure someone somewhere will jump in and say it is better than nothing or a rotting east bank. time will only tell. Why not do it right to begin with instead of saying any development is progress? If it is outdated before it is built, or it look like $hit in 10 years (Or less), why bother?

 

I think there is still time to do it better. I see a pile of dirt and some suburban renderings. To me that means there is still time.

 

Have we seen anyting other than massings so far?

 

 

Have we seen anyting other than massings so far?

 

I have not.  So I will hold back judgement for now.

 

To me at this time, based off of my previous post, it is so important to get the necessary office and commercial space online as soon as possible and get these people moved in.  Does that mean the design should suffer due to urgency, absolutely not.  But, keep in mind, after phase one is complete, there is still alot of secured undeveloped land that will be available for more structures possibly to be built as specs based on the future economy.  At that time, a serious ammount of effort can be made a possilbly building bigger and brighter than what was included in phase one. 

Willyboy, I don't disagree.  We should demand excellence, yes.  But Cleveland has a long road to recovery; esp downtown; we’ve been badly damaged over time -- that's not saying we haven't made significant strides b/c we have, but I think we're getting ahead of ourselves.  There's nothing here that tells me this project will be substandard; maybe some of the vague renderings of Eaton, which to some may scream Beachwood/Westlake campus snoozitecture, but nobody really knows what's going in there.  I just wouldn't get too uptight about it at this point.  It's the type of project everyone here's been waiting years for -- as opposed for that $100 Twinsburg mall-sprawl piece of sh!t.  I’m too pumped about the (finally) green light FEB has received and the fast pace clearance/development is going to freak out over rough/vague artist’s renderings at this point, esp given the seeming quality and type of development that will be embraced w/in these buildings’ walls.

If construction should be complete by 2010 (for lack of better words-as if!), should we not have more detailed renderings for our judgement?  :|

^FWIW, construction is supposed to start by the end of this month (not demo). Because of all the obstacles/variables this project has encountered, along with the major tenants' lease expiration timelines; I've heard firsthand this job is going to be fast-tracked from the get-go (i.e., lots of overtime).

 

With that being said, I would think some more detailed drawings would've been released by now. Seems odd there aren't.

I can't believe the negativity I'm hearing on this board.  Aside from a few of the more even keeled responses I see here, it's all about slamming this thing before it's even begun.  I'm not going to speak to the Eaton thing, because I know nothing about it, but if we just talk about the stuff that's really happening in the near term: the hotel, the theater, the waterfront, the housing, the grocery store, etc, we're looking at one of the most exciting, dense, expensive, complex, urban, transit-oriented developments this city has seen in decades.  This is why the City is so invested in the project.  This is why it's being recognized nationwide as one of the most cutting edge, sustainable building projects in the country.  This is why retailers and companies (and eventually residents) want to locate here and why it's going to do far more than fill a gap in our urban fabric... And it's going to happen in the midst of one of the most challenging dips in the housing & development market in more than a decade. 

 

I'm not going to tell anyone to chill out or tell people what to think about this project.  I'm just going to ask that we keep an open mind and acknowledge that we're watching something really monumental being developed here.  There are a number of very interesting architects designing intriguing buildings in this district and I, for one, am really looking forward to seeing each one of them become real as part of a neighborhood that already exists and will now reach down to the riverfront.  Some of them may fall short, but I think, on the whole, FEB is going to be something we can be very proud of.

^Well said.

While I would love to see architectural detail and variety in the spirit of York, England, I realize that's not practical. I agree with Mapboy that we need to give this project a chance and withhold our opinion until we see detailed plans submitted.

 

But we can opine on what has been presented thus far. I've said before I love the streetgrid plan for Flats East Bank which offers to the potential for wonderful nooks and crannies to explore, a la European cities. At the same time the conceptual site planning for the Eaton HQ is pretty unimaginative and fails to provide an interactive, uplifting urban setting, IMHO.

There are a number of very interesting architects designing intriguing buildings in this district and I, for one, am really looking forward to seeing each one of them become real as part of a neighborhood that already exists and will now reach down to the riverfront.  Some of them may fall short, but I think, on the whole, FEB is going to be something we can be very proud of.

 

I think I would feel better if knew who was designing what exactly.  Eppstein-Uhen seems maybe interesting, but NBBJ and RTKL have enough of a bland track record...I get just a touch of anxiety.  IMHO, commenting on architect selection is fair game.  But yeah, I'm gonna keep my mind open.

 

Just wait until we start criticizing the font of the big "Flats East Bank" sign!

Just wait until we start criticizing the font of the big "Flats East Bank" sign!

 

Oh, I'm sure that's coming!

 

As for which architects are doing what... I can't recall precisely, but they went through that at one of the Planning Commission presentations.  Some architects are doing entire buildings, while others are doing parts of buildings.  For example, there are townhomes fronting a parking garage on Front Street.  There's a small local firm doing those, while they work as a team on some of the larger buildings.  It should yield some interesting variety and should push each to do something special with their piece.  Of course, I'm looking forward to the green building innovations that we haven't seen on this scale to date in Cleveland.  Think of all the experience that these local designers and contractors are getting that they'll take with them to the next job... very cool!

^The green thing is pretty cool.  And if nothing else, having so many architects designing different parts should give it some honest variety.  The absolute scariest thing with mega projects is when a single architect superficially tries to make single phased construction look organic or incremental.  And if it's cheesy olde downtown style on top of that...  OK, I feel a lot better now about FEB.

Just wait until we start criticizing the font of the big "Flats East Bank" sign!

 

Oh, I'm sure that's coming!

 

As for which architects are doing what... I can't recall precisely, but they went through that at one of the Planning Commission presentations. Some architects are doing entire buildings, while others are doing parts of buildings. For example, there are townhomes fronting a parking garage on Front Street. There's a small local firm doing those, while they work as a team on some of the larger buildings. It should yield some interesting variety and should push each to do something special with their piece. Of course, I'm looking forward to the green building innovations that we haven't seen on this scale to date in Cleveland. Think of all the experience that these local designers and contractors are getting that they'll take with them to the next job... very cool!

 

That is the first I have heard of any townhomes in the FEB.

Here are the photos I took of what's left of the East Bank, last Sunday.

 

I'm attempting to harness more of the power of Google, and I just started acquainting myself with their photo-hosting site, so let me know if it worked out okay (rather than the linking I've done in the past).

It did .. thanks for the pics!

Nice post Map Boy - couldn't agree more.

 

Here are the photos I took of what's left of the East Bank, last Sunday.

 

I'm attempting to harness more of the power of Google, and I just started acquainting myself with their photo-hosting site, so let me know if it worked out okay (rather than the linking I've done in the past).

 

Did you walk past the fencing to go in there?  I walked my dog over that way the other day...kind of got as far as the fencing and decided I got the idea.  Just wondering if you could see any of the progress of infrastructure work...i.e., did it look like new sewer lines were being dug, electric, etc.

 

PS - thanks for posting the pics!

I just stuck my arm between the gap in the gate to take a couple of those.  Unless the evidence is hiding behind the piles of dirt, I don't think any infrastructure work has been done.

no, but i drove by yesterday afternoon (2ish) and the site was still a whirling dirvish of activity.  Bulldozers, backhoes, trucks, people.  It was pretty amazing.  It's definitely just not sitting there with a few piles of rubble.  Lots going on.

Yeah; my pictures are a bit misleading.  It was Sunday afternoon, so there was absolutely no activity.  But, if I were to go back every two weeks, there'd probably be big changes at each increment...

 

(that sounds like a good idea, Ipsy)

 

Yeah, you know, I might just do that...

I took the B-Line trolley today and at West 9th, I couldn't see clearly because of the Main Avenue bridge. However, I definitely saw a crane at the Ernst & Young site (20-ish story office tower) like the one in the photo below. It may just be for more earthmoving (any of our construction folks, please chime in), but we saw 1211 St. Clair pop out of the ground a few months after I took this photo. :-)

The crane is tall enough such that it is higher than the road deck of the Main Ave Bridge. I saw it last night driving home.

I didn't realize the city had granted approvals for the E&Y building...

Thanks for popping our balloon KJP. :oops: