^I think the author has to be realistic about his goals.

 

1. Sure, developing the port land BEFORE FEB would be ideal... but it is not realistic.... unless we want to wait until I qualify for social security to build the flats back up.

 

2. This whole blue river concept is not realistic either.  Someone can correct me if I am wrong, but I do not believe the Cuyahoga, no matter how "clean", will ever be "blue".  The Chicago River has the advantage of flowing in from the lake, making the water look blue.  The Cuyahoga's water travels towards the lake and picks up all the river sludge along the way.

 

3. River Road properties will become appealing only AFTER the FEB is built and can be called a success.

 

If you want a cleaner/healthier river...then we need to restore some buffer and riparian zones. Learn about their functions in maintaining the bio-integrity of a river on the riparian zone page link at www.nanafa.org 

That building looks hella boring.

That building looks hella boring.

 

I really don't think it looks that boring. 

 

Some sources in the construction/engineering/architectural industry have told me that this first phase is a real possibility and may come sooner than later.  E&Y is still committed to this, and really do want to move within the development. 

I recall the initial designs for the building (no actual rendering was released that I'm aware of) being described as "undulating glass curtain wall" - I'm guessing that's been value-engineered out. The new rendering's not bad, but I'd like to see more of it - different angles, etc.

Yea! Mayday actually got to post on topic!

Is that a beach on the river???

 

I like the fact that the Tower will likely be built.  I think it is going to add a nice touch to our skyline looking from the west.  If it is built right, the street grid should connect nicely with the WHD too.

 

I have my doubts about the success of a hotel there without the neighborhood built around it.

I don't like the elimination of structures (aka the housing with ground-floor restaurants, retail, cafes, clubs, etc.) nearer to the river. I trust that this is being done to free up credit for building the office/hotel portion of the project. But this waterfront location needs to be a 24-hour neighborhood. The office tower will provide life to the area 9-5 on weekdays, but what about the rest of the day or the weekends? A hotel alone won't provide life.

Is that a beach on the river???

 

More like a giant sandbox on the river.

So weak.

^Considering the Credit crunch and lack of financing I am happy that they are able to consider doing something instead of leaving it as a "scooby-doo ghost town"

^I agree...

I agree as well--and continue to ask, where are the Federal Stimulus dollars being spent in Cleveland????

 

I search and search and found requests for funding--but nothing seems to be approved.  It's all going to end up downstate in rural districts.  Truly sad.

i believe the only thing that would be eligible for stimulus funds for this project is the parking deck... which they have applied for.

As I have said before, I have never been a huge fan of large scale single phased developments in downtown areas becasue they, in my mind, create a "micro-sprawl" situation.  You throw 1.5 million sq ft of office space, 750 living units, and multiple restaurants into the market all at once, you are simply going to see a shift from the older office, to the newer one.  Likewise for the residents.  A similar situation happened when Tower City and the Gallaria opened, and retailers backed off Euclid.  Then, 10 years later, after everyone is done walking around and looking at the new development, they start going downhill.  Bring a new phase in every coouple years, and you will find that it keeps peoples intrest peaked.  I like the idea of a phased approach to this development.

^Preach!

As I have said before, I have never been a huge fan of large scale single phased developments in downtown areas becasue they, in my mind, create a "micro-sprawl" situation.  You throw 1.5 million sq ft of office space, 750 living units, and multiple restaurants into the market all at once, you are simply going to see a shift from the older office, to the newer one.  Likewise for the residents.  A similar situation happened when Tower City and the Gallaria opened, and retailers backed off Euclid.  Then, 10 years later, after everyone is done walking around and looking at the new development, they start going downhill.  Bring a new phase in every coouple years, and you will find that it keeps peoples intrest peaked.  I like the idea of a phased approach to this development.

 

Very true...  In a downtown the size of Cleveland AND without the increase in demand, any new large development will cannibalize existing developments.  Having said that, it's already been shown that there is a demand for downtown residential units, so the addition of 750 may not be unwarranted considering that even with 2 people to a unit that's only an increase of 1,500 people.  And once a "core" population is established (it used to be 30,000 - 40,000) then retail/restaurants become more viable.  The only negative is as you point out negative sprawl in terms of office space.  The addition of 1.5 million feet in an area that isn't really downtown detracts from the CBD especially in a market such Cleveland where the demand isn't exactly robust.

I for one have been for quite some time stating the need for at least one new office tower development.  I talk reguarly with some friends in commercial real estate.  Though there is certainly office vacancy downtown.  Most of it is smaller spaces in class B or lower space.  My one friend told me the hardest thing to do is try to find 25-30,000 square feet of contiguous class A space downtown.  He basically said it's impossible.  It's hard to try and attract larger companies into the core when you really don't have anywhere to put them, and next to nothing comparable to the newer offices in the burbs.

I for one have been for quite some time stating the need for at least one new office tower development. I talk reguarly with some friends in commercial real estate. Though there is certainly office vacancy downtown. Most of it is smaller spaces in class B or lower space. My one friend told me the hardest thing to do is try to find 25-30,000 square feet of contiguous class A space downtown. He basically said it's impossible. It's hard to try and attract larger companies into the core when you really don't have anywhere to put them, and next to nothing comparable to the newer offices in the burbs.

 

 

Perhaps the Med Mart/Convention Center will spur development on the Jacobs Public Square real estate.  I know it's off-topic, but a mixed use hotel/office would fit well there.

As I have said before, I have never been a huge fan of large scale single phased developments in downtown areas becasue they, in my mind, create a "micro-sprawl" situation.  You throw 1.5 million sq ft of office space, 750 living units, and multiple restaurants into the market all at once, you are simply going to see a shift from the older office, to the newer one.  Likewise for the residents.  A similar situation happened when Tower City and the Gallaria opened, and retailers backed off Euclid.  Then, 10 years later, after everyone is done walking around and looking at the new development, they start going downhill.  Bring a new phase in every coouple years, and you will find that it keeps peoples intrest peaked.  I like the idea of a phased approach to this development.

 

I agree...  basically, I tend to feel such developments can tend to polarize people into districts with the 'micro-sprawl' while all in between is left out. Its time to connect the dots and not play musical chairs with businesses abandoning old places, re-locating in the new ones...and old ones are left vacant for a long time. It is basically like sprawl downtown.

^However shouldn't we be accomadating the market for downtown office tennates that want Class A space?  if there is a shortage of this within the city and there are firms that are willing to move to the city if this space were available the I say build it.  If it is a firm that has grown too big for their current space and needs to move within the city then hopefully the space that has opened up will entice some company to move into it.  If there really is the shoratge of this class of space in the city, as McCleveland says, then there needs to be something built to meet demand.

^However shouldn't we be accomadating the market for downtown office tennates that want Class A space? if there is a shortage of this within the city and there are firms that are willing to move to the city if this space were available the I say build it. If it is a firm that has grown too big for their current space and needs to move within the city then hopefully the space that has opened up will entice some company to move into it. If there really is the shoratge of this class of space in the city, as McCleveland says, then there needs to be something built to meet demand.

 

But there also has to be demand for the space that they vacate. 

the owners of the huntington building have been working on a redevelopment plan for quite some time... what that is, I don't think anyone is 100% certain of at this point.

I agree as well--and continue to ask, where are the Federal Stimulus dollars being spent in Cleveland????

 

I search and search and found requests for funding--but nothing seems to be approved. It's all going to end up downstate in rural districts. Truly sad.

 

You are looking in the wrong place. Cleveland RTA is receiving $46 million in stimulus funds, which was added to $19 million in already existing capital construction funding.

 

Don't get me wrong. I am grateful that this project may move forward with the office tower and hotel -- as long as the housing/mixed-use component isn't abandoned. If it's left to another phase, that's fine. But that doesn't sound like what's happening here.

I agree as well--and continue to ask, where are the Federal Stimulus dollars being spent in Cleveland????

 

I search and search and found requests for funding--but nothing seems to be approved. It's all going to end up downstate in rural districts. Truly sad.

 

You are looking in the wrong place. Cleveland RTA is receiving $46 million in stimulus funds, which was added to $19 million in already existing capital construction funding.

 

Don't get me wrong. I am grateful that this project may move forward with the office tower and hotel -- as long as the housing/mixed-use component isn't abandoned. If it's left to another phase, that's fine. But that doesn't sound like what's happening here.

 

I can tell you with 100% confidence that they are not "abandoning" the rest of the project.  Simply put they are acknowledging the extremely difficult financial situation, and planning on starting with what they can.  I can also say that Ernst & Young has really been pushing for this portion to move forward even if it meant starting with only what you see...

I am glad to hear that.

As I have said before, I have never been a huge fan of large scale single phased developments in downtown areas becasue they, in my mind, create a "micro-sprawl" situation.  You throw 1.5 million sq ft of office space, 750 living units, and multiple restaurants into the market all at once, you are simply going to see a shift from the older office, to the newer one.  Likewise for the residents.  A similar situation happened when Tower City and the Gallaria opened, and retailers backed off Euclid.  Then, 10 years later, after everyone is done walking around and looking at the new development, they start going downhill.  Bring a new phase in every coouple years, and you will find that it keeps peoples intrest peaked.  I like the idea of a phased approach to this development.

 

I don't buy this... Neither Tower City nor the Galleria killed lower Euclid retail, it was declining before this:  Big stores like had died/were dying: Halle's went in the early 80s.  May's was faltering then, and finally closed around 1990 (totally independent of Tower City); then you had other retailers, like Bonds clothes which failed along w/ big office buildings like BP and Nat'l city, gobbling up tons of retail frontage along Euclid -- NCB is set way back from the curb, which is people unfriendly, and Sohio/BPs small windows (with the smaller stores facing largely inward toward its atrium) didn't help matters either... After that, we had lower quality 5 & Dime-ish stores (McCrory's, Woolworth's,... others) that simply died out of downtowns nationally and eventually pulled out and collapsed...

 

In this town, we have this nagging tendency to blame progress for our own inability to sustain momentum:  'Tower City/Galleria killed Euclid"... "The RTA Waterfront Line is a drain on RTA and was a boondoggle'.... 'The Flats had a bunch of cheap, chain restaurants so its failure was inevitable', and on and on...

 

Fact is, though Tower City is not necessarily being run responsibly, I'll give you that, it was a huge step forward compared to what was there (an abandonned train station with a few cheap stores, tons of empty space with, at worst, tennis courts -- and a lot of surface parking on Prospect btw Landmark and the old Post Office) -- we got a large, lovely mall, a new office tower and a Ritz-Carlton Hotel, among many other things (like a lot of new retail and a number of new restaurants)... Erieview was a bland (dare I say, ugly) office tower until the beautifully curved-lined Galleria was added; it's struggled, that's obvious, but it was clearly a major step forward (and dowtown will benefit from it in the long run) and is NOT the source of downtown's retail troubles... hardly.

 

Contrary to your thinking: we don't have ENOUGH big projects of FEBs caliber; and when we had them: Tower City; Gateway, Rock Hall/Science Center and, yes, the old Flats, in its day -- downtown was on a roll... WE are at fault for not sustaining the growth... The GROWTH ITSELF was not the source of the problem... Let's get it right and not taking the all too typical Cleveland view of things: ie: big projects are BAD, create sprawl, yadda, yadda, yadda...

 

What we need with FEB is the diligence we are seeing -- and is most welcome -- to try and see this thing through.  This is where Frank Jackson can show (and on a level, has shown some) leadership.  Mistakes have been made -- Wolstein's particularly -- and the housing/crash has hurt; along with a coporate slap in the face (Eaton) -- where E & Y are showing the polar opposite... I think if we can get the office/hotel part done, the residential piece will come... Look at Univ. Circle, where high-density housing continues to be built in the same foreclosure-gripped city... FEB can happen, so long as we have the drive to see it through.

 

^ Right on

Good call MTS....

 

Excellent anaysis Clvlndr

Excellent anaysis Clvlndr

 

:-D :-D :-D :-D

AWESOME!!!!!!!!!!!!!!  Best news in days!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!  Can't wait for this to start!!

 

 

http://www.cleveland.com/business/index.ssf/2009/09/54_million_in_city_state_fundi.html

AWESOME!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Best news in days!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Can't wait for this to start!!

 

 

http://www.cleveland.com/business/index.ssf/2009/09/54_million_in_city_state_fundi.html

 

I second that!!!

I'd be more excited if things could get built in this town without such huge public assitance...everything seems to be partially tax payer assisted....

Most excellent. 

 

I wonder if they can use some of that money for a few of these  :-D

http://www.treehugger.com/files/2009/08/solar-powered-ufo-water-filter.php

Does anybody have a clue where the retail component is going to go in this revised plan?  Wasn't much of it suppose to go on the first floors of the housing components (I could be wrong) in the original plan.  If that is the case where is it going now that housing is in future phases?

 

I guess the entertainment portion of Phase One could still go along the river like originally sited.  The rendering in the PD only shows the office building and hotel as far as I can see.

I'd be more excited if things could get built in this town without such huge public assitance...everything seems to be partially tax payer assisted....

 

True, but it's not "only in Cleveland":

 

http://www.nypost.com/p/news/regional/your_net_loss_Qz1qBFFuTuAysV3Be1rEOJ

 

http://www.brooklynrail.org/2009/04/editorsmessage/fair-is-foul

 

http://www.thepittsburghchannel.com/news/2900939/detail.html

 

http://www.postgazette.com/pg/08225/903549-53.stm

 

http://hamptonroads.com/2008/05/downtown-norfolk-hotel-project-expands-gets-westin-brand

woohoo, Flats EB is a go!!! Will someone call Eaton and let them know...

woohoo, Flats EB is a go!!! Will someone call Eaton and let them know...

 

Um, and what good will that do?  Seriously?

woohoo, Flats EB is a go!!! Will someone call Eaton and let them know...

 

Um, and what good will that do? Seriously?

 

none, it was a joke buddy....

I would call Eaton, but unfortunately I have Office Max and BP on the other line...

 

Anyway, it'll be good to see some construction downtown.

I would call Eaton, but unfortunately I have Office Max and BP on the other line...

 

Anyway, it'll be good to see some construction downtown.

 

Agreed, It is SOOO good to see this project moving (finally). I just hope they don't abandon the residential portion of the project.

Any clue as to when they will begin construction?

I would call Eaton, but unfortunately I have Office Max and BP on the other line...

 

Anyway, it'll be good to see some construction downtown.

 

That's not funny.  at least to me.

I would call Eaton, but unfortunately I have Office Max and BP on the other line...

 

Anyway, it'll be good to see some construction downtown.

 

Agreed, It is SOOO good to see this project moving (finally). I just hope they don't abandon the residential portion of the project.

 

I agree, but I think the residential aspect is the least important.  Plenty of real estate for sale sitting idle in Clevleand. 

I would call Eaton, but unfortunately I have Office Max and BP on the other line...

 

Anyway, it'll be good to see some construction downtown.

 

Agreed, It is SOOO good to see this project moving (finally). I just hope they don't abandon the residential portion of the project.

 

I agree, but I think the residential aspect is the least important.  Plenty of real estate for sale sitting idle in Clevleand. 

So are alot of people.  How many times do we have to say the economy is not at a place where large projects are moving forward. Banks are still having issues.

Another drawing eh?  Looks radically different from the recent movie theater village drawing.  Put them next to each other and they aren't even close in resemblance.  Seems like a lost opportunity to me - flats really had some uniqueness and history - oh well, "what is done is done" as the mafia would say.

 

And for the office building - would of been nice to have it down on one of those 3 or 4 blocks of surface lots from public sq. to the warehouse district.  So many blocks of surface lots in the city core that could really use something like this.  Seems kind of disjointed putting this in the flats - from a city wide planning perspective.  Speaking of which - is there a masterplan to this type of wacky of growth?  Anybody have any links on how the city leadership want to grow this city? (building wise).  I would like to check it out - seriously. 

 

I highly expect the current drawing to change this fall if the Casino issue passes on the ballot.  I would expect Wolstein to make a pitch for a casino on these grounds.  I'm sure he would rather have that than green space.  I can't say I blame him.

Its rendering folks.  We haven't seen a final design, so lets not get to worked up.  ::)

Another drawing eh?  Looks radically different from the recent movie theater village drawing.  Put them next to each other and they aren't even close in resemblance.  Seems like a lost opportunity to me - flats really had some uniqueness and history - oh well, "what is done is done" as the mafia would say.

 

And for the office building - would of been nice to have it down on one of those 3 or 4 blocks of surface lots from public sq. to the warehouse district.  So many blocks of surface lots in the city core that could really use something like this.  Seems kind of disjointed putting this in the flats - from a city wide planning perspective.  Speaking of which - is there a masterplan to this type of wacky of growth?  Anybody have any links on how the city leadership want to grow this city? (building wise).  I would like to check it out - seriously. 

 

I highly expect the current drawing to change this fall if the Casino issue passes on the ballot.  I would expect Wolstein to make a pitch for a casino on these grounds.  I'm sure he would rather have that than green space.  I can't say I blame him.

 

I agree with a lot of this. I am supportive of this project, but as for the retail component that is supposed to eventually be the full scale project.... I walk downtown, I see sooooooooooo many vacant retail spaces in prime areas of which we are not filling at lighting speed.......yet we will build more? Will it just result in a game of "musical chairs" downtown? That is where I agree with the "wacky planning" sentiment of the above post. I also like the public park and green-space aspect rather than seeing all concrete. Natural never goes out of style...ask Portland....or the dozens of dogs living downtown! I also have a hunch that once existing downtown residents have this newly created green-space on the river...they will not want to surrender it to condos, for they will have discovered just what an asset it is to a city. I hope it all works out in the end.

Greyrat I hate to sound pissy but do you even know how to read?  This has all been explained in countless threads and posts.

In the comments section of the article (yes I was staring at a train wreck and couldn't look away) the Reporter posted this:

 

 

 

"Sorry it took me a little while to respond to your question. I was out of the office for a bit. Last year, the Wolstein Group and Fairmount Properties announced that the project would include a 1 Hotel and Residences, a luxury hotel with condos on top.

 

1 Hotel isn't on the lineup now, though. Scott and Iris Wolstein told me today that they are talking to another hotel flag, a boutique concept, about the 150-room hotel and conference center on the plans. They haven't announced the hotel brand yet."