"And for the office building - would of been nice to have it down on one of those 3 or 4 blocks of surface lots from public sq. to the warehouse district.  So many blocks of surface lots in the city core that could really use something like this."

 

True, but Wolstein doesn't control any of those blocks. Kinda hard to build on a lot you don't have absolute say over.

Htsguy - if you don't want to sound pissy - then don't BE pissy.

 

Actually Greyrat I just read some of your past posts and I take it back, I did mean to be pissy.

Htsguy I'm not sure anything at all has really been explained in this huge thread.

 

Greyrat I hate to sound pissy but do you even know how to read? This has all been explained in countless threads and posts.

One thing that's definitely been explained ad fricking nauseam is this ridiculous idea that a development that's been negotiated, contracted, planned, subsidized for ___ site should just be thrown out and plopped on over to whatever arbitrary site that would be "better".

 

In most cases and especially in theory, YES, it would be much better to plug some of the holes closer to the core of the CBD - no one with any modicum of good planning sense would deny that, including me. I'd love to see every block from West 9th to East 9th infilled with the absolute best of kick@ss mixed-use, corporate, you name it - but at the same time I'm not going to p!ss and moan that we might actually see a new building go up outside of that area. However in this place known as reality - as IF it's just a matter of "well gee, they got funding to build this 20-story office tower and hotel at Flats East Bank, screw all that - it'd be better to put it on Public Square!". I agree that a masterplan - a solid, comprehensive one, is needed but that wouldn't cover everything, especially something like this.

 

I wonder what boutique hotel they are getting.

The building at Euclid and East Ninth is supposedly getting a boutique hotel, too. Hmmm..

Speak it, Administrator!  It seemed pretty much everyone on this forum was hoping for Stark's plan to go through before the Flats, but the fact is the Wolstein plan has been way ahead (planning and more importantly financing) of most other downtown developments for some time.  It's been six score years since cities had complete control over their development.  Maybe we can get Olmsted-Law and Burnham to get working on the parking lots.  Until then, I'll take this bit of good news. 

msa1092 - you ask about the boutique hotel... It was described as a "business class" hotel in the press release and then "boutique" in other stories during the day - and a rendering I saw on WKYC tonight showed a hotel logo that clearly said "Aloft" - the hip Starwood property that's a business class boutique hotel. Based on that, I can only assume that's the main company they're talking to. It's a great name to bring to this town - travelers are really liking Aloft, but, at the same time, I was just in Green Bay, WI - and THEY already have an Aloft, so it's far from the exclusive type one might hope (Hotel Monaco, etc..)

 

http://www.wkyc.com/video/default.aspx?menuid=172

EC,

 

I completely agree with you that once people get a taste of the green space they might not want to exchange it for condos/apartments.  However, IMO, this will be relative to how long it takes for the second (and third?) phases of the project to get started.

 

That is to say, if we get to spend 4 or 5 summers in the lawns/sandbox (as someone put it) throwing frisbees, picnic-ing, volleyballing and running around - hopefully all those dogs will be respectful enough to pick-up after themselves :-) - then the city and Wolstein will have a tough fight in their hands to get that land back for concrete.

 

However, if the second phase kicks off within 2 or 3 years of phase one, I would be hard pressed to think that people would even have noticed this green space existed.  After all, it has been my experience that most people don't care that we have a beautiful park next to the RnR.

 

 

If it is an aloft, then it will indeed be a great addition.  I stayed at the aloft in DC and it was awesome, they had an indoor pool (with sliding doors to the patio), a great gym, a bar, a patio with an outdoor fireplace (like Cadillac Ranch), balconies off the lobby with a gas fireplace that could be seen/felt from that balcony as well as from the lobby.

 

While the rooms themselves are European chic (and small) the common areas are modern, airy and very cool.

 

What I liked the most was that it embraced the outdoors regardless of the fact that it was in a location where it is cold for a good part of the year.

 

 

And for the office building - would of been nice to have it down on one of those 3 or 4 blocks of surface lots from public sq. to the warehouse district.  So many blocks of surface lots in the city core that could really use something like this.  Seems kind of disjointed putting this in the flats - from a city wide planning perspective. 

 

But the city doesn't build these buildings - developers do.  Wolstein owns the land in the Flats, Jacobs owns the parking lot that touches Public Square and another group owns the vacant lots nearby in the Warehouse District.  They ALL would love to have a company approach them and say, "Please build us a 300,000 sq. ft. headquarters on your land."  But they don't have that.  Wolstein managed to get Ernst and Young so they win this round. 

 

Yes, the city sets up guidelines to try and get things moving in a certain direction.  But this is far from an exact science when dealing with so many companies and factors out of your control.  You have to balance what you'd like in a perfect world with the reality that life hands you.

Something I read in this morning's Plain Dealer that I hadn't heard before...  (and mods, I understand this applies to more than one thread so I just took a stab and posted it here.  Please don't ban me  :-D)

 

The article said Wolstein has been talking with Cleveland Aquarium about putting a $50 million facility on the EAST bank that would obviously compete with Jacob's proposed Nautica proposal.  I guess I didn't realize that project was still a possibility enough that they'd be having serious talks with Wolstein and that factoid would make it into the PD.

Nope that's fine for discussing here (as a component of Flats East Bank - but aquarium-specific chat should go in the existing thread), and ditto on "I didn't realize that project was still a possibility enough that they'd be having serious talks with Wolstein".

EC,

 

I completely agree with you that once people get a taste of the green space they might not want to exchange it for condos/apartments. However, IMO, this will be relative to how long it takes for the second (and third?) phases of the project to get started.

 

That is to say, if we get to spend 4 or 5 summers in the lawns/sandbox (as someone put it) throwing frisbees, picnic-ing, volleyballing and running around - hopefully all those dogs will be respectful enough to pick-up after themselves :-) - then the city and Wolstein will have a tough fight in their hands to get that land back for concrete.

 

 

If this park does become reality, it'll be interesting to see how Wendy Park does.  It may draw people away from there as the access to the EB is easier than getting to Wendy Park.

msa1092 - you ask about the boutique hotel... It was described as a "business class" hotel in the press release and then "boutique" in other stories during the day - and a rendering I saw on WKYC tonight showed a hotel logo that clearly said "Aloft" - the hip Starwood property that's a business class boutique hotel. Based on that, I can only assume that's the main company they're talking to. It's a great name to bring to this town - travelers are really liking Aloft, but, at the same time, I was just in Green Bay, WI - and THEY already have an Aloft, so it's far from the exclusive type one might hope (Hotel Monaco, etc..)

 

http://www.wkyc.com/video/default.aspx?menuid=172

I'm not convinced that was an Aloft logo.  God, as much as I love starwood hotels, I pray it's not an aloft.  Put a W in for Christ sakes in the FEB and adjacent to the WHD.  Young 20 & 30 somethings will stay there.

 

They don't want the "watered down version" of the W or as starwood says, "a vision of W hotels".  Go 100%!  Alofts are not that nice to begin with.  The aloft brand was conceived for people who want a W but cannot afford the price point.  An Aloft will cheapen it.  Stick with Hotel 1 or build a W!

Yeah, but I don't think "business hotel" when I think W, and E&Y and the law firm is probably the primary driver for the hotel

Yeah, but I don't think "business hotel" when I think W, and E&Y and the law firm is probably the primary driver for the hotel

 

Well that's also part of our problem. We're labeling it as a "business" hotel.  Its has to be a property that business and leisure travelers will enjoy.  It's on the lake/river, in what will become a majority residential neighborhood and destination. 

 

We need more diversity in our hotels and labeling it as business will scare of leisure travelers.

http://www.cleveland.com/news-videos/index.ssf/2009/09/flats_east_bank_project_gets_n.html

 

going on right now..

 

EDIT:  Well there was live video streaming talking about the project...guess it's over now

http://www.cleveland.com/news-videos/

 

going on right now..

 

What exactly is "going on right now"?  A little description would be helpful.  This way people know what they are clicking.  ;)

Some of the news from the flatseast.com site - http://flatseast.com/documents/press-releases/Flats-Restart-Release.pdf It is essentially 3 pdf files and I did not include everything in here. I was also not sure if I can post this much info considering it really isn't a news site, but if it is too much info I can edit it.

 

Every great city has a vibrant one-of-a-kind destination point.

In Cleveland, that place will be Flats East Bank.

The $270+ million Phase 1 riverfront development will offer:

 

*  450,000 sq. ft. of Class A office space featuring a green rooftop terrace for anchor tenants

    including Ernst & Young and Tucker Ellis & West

*  A 150-room business class hotel featuring top-quality room design, a high-tech conference

    center, as well as a landscaped terrace and covered pathways with direct connectivity to

    the office tower

*  Energetic architecture and design, innovative lighting, bold color, sculpture and public art—

    all with breathtaking waterfront and skyline views

* An inviting 14-acre public park with plush green space, open recreational fields, a 1200 ft.

  riverfront boardwalk with riverfront dining and a 3-acre urban beach for lounging or sand

  volleyball

*A 14,000 sq. ft. regional state-of-the-art health club and 15,000 sq. ft. of unique retailing as

  well as casual and fine dining options

* Seasonal pavilions for festivals, programs and activities

* Plentiful parking balanced between a structured parking facility and appropriately designed

  surface parking lots

 

Future phases to include extensive waterfront housing as well as additional shops,

restaurants and entertainment

 

 

The updated development plans will include a 450,000 s.f. office tower with spectacular views for tenants including Ernst & Young and Tucker Ellis & West. The office tower will have a rooftop terrace and connect to a 150-room business class hotel featuring top-quality room design and a high-tech conference center. Plans also include a 14,000 s.f. health club, 15,000 s.f. of retail, riverfront dining and seasonal pavilions for festivals, programs and activities. Developer Scott Wolstein said: “We refused to abandon this effort because we want to see the community thrive. This project will ignite our downtown and enhance the image of the Flats, the city of Cleveland and all

of northeast Ohio.

 

“With any project of this magnitude there will be hurdles,” he continued. “Being able to clear hurdles is a testament to the strength of the project and the fortitude of the good team that stands behind it. Flats East Bank is today moving forward because of the ongoing efforts and strategic collaboration of our public and private partners.” Visitors and nearby downtown residents – who currently have little access to outdoor public space – will be able to take advantage of a 14-acre public park with plush green space, open recreational fields, and a 1,200-foot riverfront boardwalk.

The development plans offer some new, exciting components as well – most notably a three-acre riverfront beach for lounging, sun-bathing and sand volleyball.

 

While signature parks and plazas were always contemplated along the riverfront, the park will be larger in the initial phase of the development. When the housing markets recovers, developers will expand on the mixeduse development, with a focus on residential opportunities, including condos, apartments and townhomes all with exceptional views of the downtown skyline, Lake Erie and the Cuyahoga River. But green space, a riverfront boardwalk and other public amenities will continue to be a draw to the waterfront as plans progress. The developers thanked their anchor office tenants – Ernst & Young and Tucker, Ellis & West LLP – for their patience and continued commitment to Flats East Bank and the city in the face of the nation’s economicchallenges.

 

“The Wolstein family has a very deep and personal interest in the Flats and I know that it’s going to be a gleaming showpiece when it’s done,” said Don Misheff, Ernst & Young’s Northeast Ohio managing partner. “We believe that it’s going to be a great place to conduct business and an asset in our efforts to recruit the best and brightest young talent. I think it will become the most sought after office location in northeast Ohio.” Curt Isler, managing partner of Tucker Ellis & West, reaffirmed the law firm’s commitment to the development as well: “We committed to this project early because we saw it as a first class, high-energy waterfront development that will define Cleveland’s future. When the downturn came, the developers won our respect with their candid and honorable approach to the new challenges. We have reaffirmed our commitment. This will be a stunning setting for our flagship office. We can’t wait to move in.”

 

To move the project forward, the State committed an additional $24 million through a combination of

sources, $23 million of which are loans. The City, through its Economic Development Department, will introduce legislation to City Council committing an additional $30 million loan, as well as the use of its Recovery Zone Bond allocation, a federal stimulus incentive which allows taxable bonds to be issued as tax exempt. In addition, the City has submitted to the schools a restructuring of the Tax Increment Financing with the Cleveland schools, which would achieve the same percentage of taxes to be received by the schools as previously agreed to, but will adjust the timing

and method of payments. Many other public partners and programs also contributed to push this unique and defining project forward,including a recent Cuyahoga County loan or 1.5 million for brownfield remediation. The County alsopreviously provided a $4 million loan and secured State and Federal Funding sources totaling $7 million.

 

Flats East Bank is a joint venture between The Wolstein Group and Fairmount Properties. Phase I of

the project (as outlined above) is anticipated for completion in Spring

I really hope they don't put pavillions up.  I think that will look hokey.  It isn't the metroparks.

What exactly constitutes "appropriately designed surface parking lots?"

 

What exactly constitutes "appropriately designed surface parking lots?"

 

 

I assume they may put some around the park (single row) where people can park and walk around.  I am sure this dosen't me the office tower employees will be parking on surface lots.

Overall I'm happy this is moving forward. It is really hard to tell where exactly retail is going to go from the renderings now that the residential component is on hold. The waterfront restaurant looks to be in the 1st phase (white building next to the bridge). Whether this building has any retail remains to be seen I guess.

 

http://blog.cleveland.com/cribnotes/2009/09/new_renderings_of_flats_east_b.html

I would suspect most of the retail will be street level in the ground floors of the office building and hotel.  Particuarly on the street that separates the two buildings.

15,000 s.f. isn't much retail anyway.  That's about the size of a CVS, I think.

15,000 s.f. isn't much retail anyway. That's about the size of a CVS, I think.

That would explain why it is hard find! I missed that part.

Beachfront bar anyone?  :-D :-D It would have great sunsets...

 

I am happy that this is moving forward I had visions of staring at the scarred landscpe and that giant hole already dug for the office tower foundation for 10 years, the turn around is promising. I look forward to seeing some final renderings. Would the final building exterior design have to be approved before they start construction?

At least they finally changed the opening date on the flatseast.com site from opening in 2010 :)

From playground for hot young twentysomethings to headquarters for Ernst & Young.  Talk about a turnaround.  :drunk:

 

A bunch of accountants does not make a tourist destination, but we'll take what we can get over a brownfield.

^Not quite sure the original concept was suppose to be a "tourist destination".  Really thought the majority of it was for Clevelanders.

^Not quite sure the original concept was suppose to be a "tourist destination". Really thought the majority of it was for Clevelanders.

 

You must not be a boater.  The old Flats were a legendary destination for boaters from around the Great Lakes.  I still get asked everywhere I go how the Flats are doing--and people look at me like I am crazy when I tell them it's a ghost town now.

From playground for hot young twentysomethings to headquarters for Ernst & Young.  Talk about a turnaround.  :drunk:

 

A bunch of accountants does not make a tourist destination, but we'll take what we can get over a brownfield.

 

Do you have anything to serious to add or do you post just to be annoying?

^That is certainly true but that was the old flats.  The original Wolstein plan was a mixed use development (I guess it still is but in phases) that included a major office building, a hotel primarily serving that building, a local movie theater, a grocery store, health club, some retail and significant housing, all pretty much local in nature.  There was to be some green space and entertainment venues but not enough that I would consider it a "tourist destination" like say a Baltimore Inner Harbor.  Clearly Wolstein was, and is, more interested in developing a new neighborhood.

I'm not convinced that was an Aloft logo. God, as much as I love starwood hotels, I pray it's not an aloft. Put a W in for Christ sakes in the FEB and adjacent to the WHD. Young 20 & 30 somethings will stay there.

 

They don't want the "watered down version" of the W or as starwood says, "a vision of W hotels". Go 100%! Alofts are not that nice to begin with. The aloft brand was conceived for people who want a W but cannot afford the price point.   An Aloft will cheapen it. Stick with Hotel 1 or build a W!

 

Granted a W would be incredible and much better than an aloft, but I'm must disagree with your alofts are not that nice comment.  Unfortunately, I have stayed at hundreds of hotels in my life and the aloft (at least the one in D.C.), in regards to their common areas has to rank in the top ten (top 15 at worst) hotels I have stayed in.

 

Again a W would be out of this world, but an aloft would be very very cool.  BTW, in that DC trip, I switched from the Gaylord to the aloft because it was much better and at half the price.  However, I do admit I may have been biased since they had Dogfish Head beer on tap in their bar.

 

 

You make some excellent points. And there's a good question, should the Flats East Bank ever be resurrected and planned as a tourist destination?

 

But I'm not convinced Wolstein is really committed to a new "neighborhood" at all. His last minute prayer for the Convention Center/MM shows that he's flexible as to the idea of what the FEB should or could become.

 

 

^That is certainly true but that was the old flats.  The original Wolstein plan was a mixed use development (I guess it still is but in phases) that included a major office building, a hotel primarily serving that building, a local movie theater, a grocery store, health club, some retail and significant housing, all pretty much local in nature.  There was to be some green space and entertainment venues but not enough that I would consider it a "tourist destination" like say a Baltimore Inner Harbor.  Clearly Wolstein was, and is, more interested in developing a new neighborhood.

Despite the massive recession, there are BIG projects about to happen Downtown

 

- Flats East Bank

 

- Convention Center / Medical Mart

 

- 668 Euclid

 

- a possible full service casino by 2011

 

- new CSU developments

 

 

Downtown Cleveland is on its way up!!

 

 

Lets up the size of that "beach" a little bit and try to pull an AVP tournament.

sky,

 

You are so right!  It is very exciting to think of these projects all coming online in the next few years.

 

I wonder if there are efforts to achieve LEED certification for just this first phase or each building certified separately.  I know previously this project was going to attempt to be certified as LEED-ND (neighborhood development)

Despite the massive recession, there are BIG projects about to happen Downtown

 

- Flats East Bank

 

- Convention Center / Medical Mart

 

- 668 Euclid

 

- a possible full service casino by 2011

 

- new CSU developments

 

 

Downtown Cleveland is on its way up!!

 

 

 

The Weston-Gilbane project will be HUGE for Cleveland as well to fill in the empty space.  Sure, that's a little further off, but it has huge potential.  It reminds me of the Gateway project that's been open for a few years in Columbus.

Despite the massive recession, there are BIG projects about to happen Downtown

 

- Flats East Bank

 

- Convention Center / Medical Mart

 

- 668 Euclid

 

- a possible full service casino by 2011

 

- new CSU developments

 

 

Downtown Cleveland is on its way up!!

 

 

 

MMPI/Conv center and FEB, I'd consider BIG... 668, though nice, I wouldn't consider "Big" -- I love the adaptive reuse but I'd really like to see some new construction/high-density res (a la  Ave Dist) in our hot areas (Warehouse Dist and Gateway)... And the casinos are way too speculative for me to even get excited about right now... First, we've got to pass casino gambling in this backwards state.

668, though nice, I wouldn't consider "Big" -- I love the adaptive reuse but I'd really like to see some new construction/high-density res (a la Ave Dist) in our hot areas (Warehouse Dist and Gateway).

 

With 236 units, 668 is the second biggest residential building downtown (after Bridgeview).  It's bigger than The Avenue District (current units) and IS part of the Gateway district.

668, though nice, I wouldn't consider "Big" -- I love the adaptive reuse but I'd really like to see some new construction/high-density res (a la Ave Dist) in our hot areas (Warehouse Dist and Gateway).

 

 

 

With 236 units, 668 is the second biggest residential building downtown (after Bridgeview). It's bigger than The Avenue District (current units) and IS part of the Gateway district.

 

I love 668; not only are we getting a huge, high density res unit right in our core; we're turning a crumbling eyesore into a beaut and reviving a dead section of Euclid at the same time... But it's still one building, which is why I don't consider it Big.  (but hey, we can quibble on mere semantics till the cows come home; we both love 668)...

 

... Now if we built that spanking new 24 story condo/apt tower atop the 515 parking deck across the street; I'd moonwalk down Euclid. 

From playground for hot young twentysomethings to headquarters for Ernst & Young.  Talk about a turnaround.  :drunk:

 

A bunch of accountants does not make a tourist destination, but we'll take what we can get over a brownfield.

 

Do you have anything to serious to add or do you post just to be annoying?

 

What's the matter My Two Sense?  Are we not allowed to be critical of our politician's decisions here?  Can I not still be scornful that we took the biggest tourist draw in the midwest and mowed down the builidngs, and are "hoping" to replace it someday with an Ernst and Young building? 

"we took the biggest tourist draw in the midwest and mowed down the builidngs"

 

Who is "we"?

Because of being too young, and then leaving for college my waning memories of the flats are stabbings, and drunks drowning in the river followed by fencing off the river, and bars getting shut down or closing outright.  So rose colored glasses maybe?

^ Even more of a reason to welcome more implementation of natural/indigenous restoration of some green-space along a river which was raped to the extreme for 200 years... Well, Maybe only The Mahoning River was raped worse. Time to give a bit back to a river that made it possible for Cleveland to exist today.

 

Then, years later..and eventhough I did my share  of partying...  in my opinion The Flats became an overrated toilet of party pals only.... who would come to the city...poop on it, and leave a mess. I knew it would be destined grow thin when I came of age there back in '88. We can only make it better than ever...a place where stakeholders have an interest in a functioning neighborhood/business area with some sorely needed park space downtown. Sometimes less is more. I like the down scaled version.

 

Let's see the cottonwoods, the sedges, the Sycamores...all signature icons of our natural heritage. All can be implemented into the development. The Flats will have grown up and come of age....more appealing to a much broader demographic, and thus...making the city a more desirable place to live.

Because of being too young, and then leaving for college my waning memories of the flats are stabbings, and drunks drowning in the river followed by fencing off the river, and bars getting shut down or closing outright. So rose colored glasses maybe?

 

Which make your glasses brown colored thanks to three stabbings and two drownings.  There were the  other millions of revelers of the course of the years who lived to see another day after a night of partying.  I think the truth lies somewhere in between--but wish the city would have focused on cleaning up and improving what was there.  The natural spot for a casino would have been in the midst of all that.  Had we done so, I think business travellers would have started to look to Cleveland as a convention destination. 

^ Even more of a reason to welcome more implementation of natural/indigenous restoration of some green-space along a river which was raped to the extreme for 200 years... Well, Maybe only The Mahoning River was raped worse. Time to give a bit back to a river that made it possible for Cleveland to exist today.

 

Then, years later..and eventhough I did my share  of partying...  in my opinion The Flats became an overrated toilet of party pals only.... who would come to the city...poop on it, and leave a mess. I knew it would be destined grow thin when I came of age there back in '88. We can only make it better than ever...a place where stakeholders have an interest in a functioning neighborhood/business area with some sorely needed park space downtown. Sometimes less is more. I like the down scaled version.

 

Let's see the cottonwoods, the sedges, the Sycamores...all signature icons of our natural heritage. All can be implemented into the development. The Flats will have grown up and come of age....more appealing to a much broader demographic, and thus...making the city a more desirable place to live.

 

Outside of the nature boy stuff, I agree.  The flats did not evolve, if more housing, restaurants and daytime establishments had been incorporated into the area two decades ago, it would be in the situation it is today.

 

I think there would have been a chance to keep some original structure and build new commercial space without having to level the entire area.