January 20, 201114 yr Who's the lead GC on the FEB project? I know Gilbane is the lead Construction Manager, but I don't know any of the actual contractors. Have any of the bid packages for the buildings been put out for bid? Foundations? Structural steel? General trades?
January 20, 201114 yr haha well out of date or not at least its good they have more online presence. maybe they'll seek some advice and fix it up like the developers of the avenue did with their website, remember? i would think they will when this really gets rolling.
January 21, 201114 yr The facebook page is gone or hidden. I was 2nd, for the record. :P Gilbane is lead, that's cool. They're doing UH as well.
January 25, 201114 yr I drove by the Flats today and the pile driver is up. And there are cement trucks in the area.
February 6, 201114 yr A little more has been done and looks like a crane is now on site. I cannot figure out how to reduce file sizes on a Mac, so I'm putting links to my flickr up. http://www.flickr.com/photos/jjames0408/5422103097/# Bonus: Waterfront line running http://www.flickr.com/photos/jjames0408/5422104593/#
February 7, 201114 yr Apartments may rise at Flats East Bank As project's construction proceeds, developers mull reviving dormant residential component http://www.crainscleveland.com/article/20110207/SUB1/302079984
February 7, 201114 yr I was wondering why more developers won't build apartments in this market. This is great news!
February 7, 201114 yr I was wondering why more developers won't build apartments in this market. This is great news! Even though it sounds like a good idea, they still need money to do it that and banks are not giving it out.
February 7, 201114 yr I was wondering why more developers won't build apartments in this market. This is great news! Even though it sounds like a good idea, they still need money to do it that and banks are not giving it out. that market is starting to open up. I have no idea of the scope of this project, and I'm sure a lot of pre-work still needs to be done, but I can tell you that banks are starting to look at things that were unthinkable 2 years ago. Competition on C&I deals is picking up, to the point that pricing is starting to be affected. Many of the banks that had balance sheet issues, which impacted their ability to lend at all, much less to CRE projects, have taken the necessary steps to clean up those distressed assets. Additionally, the void that was created by the local banks is being filled by other regionals, with healthier books, who are looking to make a move into the region. By the time the planning is worked out, the appetite for a project like this may be significantly improved. I wouldn't be surprised if you see a consortium of banks, but not the usual players, looking at this deal by the end of the year.
February 7, 201114 yr Author I think it's important to note that they aren't pursuing construction. They're just researching it. That's a long way from there being a residential a project. It's almost a news story. This might be a more interesting article if it covered the downtown housing market overall, and discussed the possibility of Flats apartments amongst other possible downtown housing construction. And I would compare the downtown housing market vs. the University Circle market vs. the suburban market, especially in regards to this info from the article.... A report issued last week by the Marcus & Millichap real estate brokerage on the apartment market in key cities nationwide projects the Cleveland apartment market will tighten as apartment vacancies will fall to 5.6% in 2011 from 6% at the end of 2010. However, Marcus & Millichap actually dropped Cleveland's ranking as a desirable place for new apartments to 40th out of the 44 markets it follows from 32nd last year. One reason: Affordable home prices are providing strong competition for apartments. Is the second paragraph representative of the downtown housing market too? As we all know, it's a very market different from the suburban housing market. I would like to see these markets compared. "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
February 7, 201114 yr I was wondering why more developers won't build apartments in this market. This is great news! Even though it sounds like a good idea, they still need money to do it that and banks are not giving it out. That answers for 2 years, but not for the previous several decades. Tons of new housing was built during the 2000s and almost none of it was apartments. It's been a policy choice on the part of city leaders (some more than others) to eliminate rental units, replace them with owner occupied sf homes (detatched and otherwise), and generally move toward a suburban growth model. The politics behind this, if not the entire discusson, is probably best suited for another thread. But I think its a talk Cleveland needs to have.
February 7, 201114 yr Author That answers for 2 years, but not for the previous several decades. Tons of new housing was built during the 2000s and almost none of it was apartments. It's been a policy choice on the part of city leaders (some more than others) to eliminate rental units, replace them with owner occupied sf homes (detatched and otherwise), and generally move toward a suburban growth model. The politics behind this, if not the entire discusson, is probably best suited for another thread. But I think its a talk Cleveland needs to have. I believe your information is wrong and therefore your presumption is incorrect. I ask you to cite a source about the for-sale vs. rental housing downtown. If you can't, then please stop making a baseless argument. "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
February 7, 201114 yr Here is the 2011 National Apartment report should anyone like to look at i: http://www.tcg-mm.com/marketresearch/MM2011NationalAptReport.pdf
February 7, 201114 yr ^^Good luck there...327 has this argument on speed dial and makes it over and over. Have to admire his determination.
February 7, 201114 yr I believe your information is wrong and therefore your presumption is incorrect. I ask you to cite a source about the for-sale vs. rental housing downtown. If you can't, then please stop making a baseless argument. What information of mine are you challenging? What presumption? On what grounds do you characterize my argument as baseless? I humbly request that you give me something to work with other than "I think you're wrong, shut up." Frankly that's rude. Why are you demanding citations from me for data that is readily observable? The existence of entire buildings? You want a journal article or something? We can all count. My point applies citywide, not just downtown, but of the new-build housing projects downtown it lines up like this: Rentals: Crittenden For sale: Pinnacle, Avenue Dist loft bldg, Avenue Dist townhomes That's either 2-1 or 3-1. Am I missing something? Because otherwise, it is fair to say that most of the residental structures built downtown recently are of a for-sale nature. Citywide there have been acres and acres of for-sale housing built during the past 2-3 mayoral administrations. Why you are attempting to make a controversy of its existence is beyond me. It's there for all to see. The city's effort toward attracting families and homeowners is no secret either. It's not an allegation on my part, it's an openly stated public policy. It's the overt motivation behind the tax abatement scheme and has been discussed at length here and elsewhere.
February 7, 201114 yr Apartments may rise at Flats East Bank As project's construction proceeds, developers mull reviving dormant residential component With construction workers laboring again on the 18-story Ernst & Young Office Tower at the Flats East Bank Neighborhood project in downtown Cleveland, steps are afoot that further may change the riverfront district's skyline. The Wolstein Group of Beachwood and Fairmount Properties of Cleveland are looking at how to revive the “neighborhood” part of what started out as a $500 million project before tough economic times forced developers to split the Flats East Bank into phases. Adam Fishman, a Fairmount Properties principal, said last week during an interview that efforts are under way to rekindle plans for theproject's residential component, perhaps exclusively as apartments rather than the mix of for-sale condominiums and rental units originally envisioned. As reported in CrainsCleveland.com http://www.crainscleveland.com/article/20110207/SUB1/302079984
February 7, 201114 yr I believe your information is wrong and therefore your presumption is incorrect. I ask you to cite a source about the for-sale vs. rental housing downtown. If you can't, then please stop making a baseless argument. What information of mine are you challenging? What presumption? On what grounds do you characterize my argument as baseless? I humbly request that you give me something to work with other than "I think you're wrong, shut up." Frankly that's rude. Why are you demanding citations from me for data that is readily observable? The existence of entire buildings? You want a journal article or something? We can all count. My point applies citywide, not just downtown, but of the new-build housing projects downtown it lines up like this: Rentals: Crittenden For sale: Pinnacle, Avenue Dist loft bldg, Avenue Dist townhomes That's either 2-1 or 3-1. Am I missing something? Because otherwise, it is fair to say that most of the residental structures built downtown recently are of a for-sale nature. Citywide there have been acres and acres of for-sale housing built during the past 2-3 mayoral administrations. Why you are attempting to make a controversy of its existence is beyond me. It's there for all to see. The city's effort toward attracting families and homeowners is no secret either. It's not an allegation on my part, it's an openly stated public policy. It's the overt motivation behind the tax abatement scheme and has been discussed at length here and elsewhere. With the most recent completion (to my knowledge at least) being 668 Euclid, I would have to say you are missing something.
February 7, 201114 yr BaltiCraig, welcome to UrbanOhio. FYI, you cant post entire news articles like that. Just the Headline and a couple of paragraphs and a link to the source.
February 7, 201114 yr fyi for everyone, if you google any crains article in question and click the google news link you can bypass the paywall
February 7, 201114 yr Lets agree there was a housing bubble over the past 10 years, all over the country, not just Cleveland. Lets keep this thread on topic of the Flats East Bank development.
February 7, 201114 yr 327 you are wrong on almost every level of that argument, and its been laid out for you several times. lets keep this discussion relevant.
February 7, 201114 yr It doesn't look like BaltiCraig posted the entire article. And thanks for the tip roserob, makes it a lot easier to keep up on those articles!
February 7, 201114 yr The article is silent on the point but I am curious whether the planning for Phase 2 (substituting rentals for owned units) also means they will consider the original retail and entertainment aspects of the project (or is that a Phase 3)?
February 7, 201114 yr ^offering a possible answer, it is still is probably harder to obtain financing for retail and restaurants as compared to apartments (and look at the hoops they had to jump through to secure financing for Phase 1)
February 7, 201114 yr I'm not sure if this had been posted before, but the flats east bank website is finally updated: www.flatseast.com still not that updated though... They really need to expand their marketing department..
February 7, 201114 yr ^ im not sure if thats updated. It looks like the 'Eaton Tower' is still in the picture
February 7, 201114 yr yeah...does not look that updated except for news. The renderings are way out of date.
February 8, 201114 yr The master plan has not changed to my knowledge, so I wouldn't call the rendering out of date.
February 8, 201114 yr The master plan has not changed to my knowledge, so I wouldn't call the rendering out of date. The master plans called for Eaton Tower!
February 8, 201114 yr Maybe 'vision' is the better word. But, yes, an office complex on the other side of the freight tracks, inside a slightly expanded waterfront line loop, is part of that last we heard. That is a tricky tract and with the port 50 years away from developing to the north, it may be a good use.... especially if the 'urban campus' seeking company is willing to pitch in some $ to reconfigure the loop to best serve its location.
February 8, 201114 yr Author The master plan has not changed to my knowledge, so I wouldn't call the rendering out of date. The master plans called for Eaton Tower! That's not quite accurate. The original plans for Flats East Bank were unveiled in 2005 and included an office building within the Waterfront Line loop. At the time, a potential user was considered to be the Defense Finance Accounting Service. But that wasn't for certain. So the end user wasn't identified. Furthermore, Eaton didn't start making noises about moving out of their Superior Avenue building until 2008. And further still, the Flats East Bank zoning is called Planned Unit Development which links the developer's development plan to the zoning, so it carries the force of law. The Planned Unit Development for the site was approved by City Council in early 2006. So there. "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
February 13, 201114 yr A little more dirt moved around haha: http://www.flickr.com/photos/jjames0408/5440016882/#in/set-72157625908903629/
February 13, 201114 yr Great news that residential may quickly be added to Flats East Bank. I've said it before and I'll say it again - you could open a brand new apartment building in downtown Cleveland today with 500 single unit apartments for $850-$950/month and have it 100% leased within a year.
February 15, 201114 yr Is anyone aware of any planned upgrades to the streets to improve the flow of traffic in & out of this area? I drove down here this weekend and I think once this development is fully occupied, there are going to be some real traffic snarls of people trying to get in & out of here. Seems ironic that the very location which makes it unique, tucked at the corner of the lake & river opening, might make it a challenge to get in/out of. Might be interesting to see how many people end up taking the Rapid to work here if it dropped you off at the front door...
February 15, 201114 yr Great news that residential may quickly be added to Flats East Bank. I've said it before and I'll say it again - you could open a brand new apartment building in downtown Cleveland today with 500 single unit apartments for $850-$950/month and have it 100% leased within a year. Absolutely. Is anyone aware of any planned upgrades to the streets to improve the flow of traffic in & out of this area? I drove down here this weekend and I think once this development is fully occupied, there are going to be some real traffic snarls of people trying to get in & out of here. Seems ironic that the very location which makes it unique, tucked at the corner of the lake & river opening, might make it a challenge to get in/out of. Might be interesting to see how many people end up taking the Rapid to work here if it dropped you off at the front door... Hopefully RTA can bring back regular waterfront service once phase 1 is open. Because you're right, there's no way everyone's drving in and out of there at the same time. And that's why I doubt there will ever be any sort of "campus" built there. One office tower is plenty, and they wisely put it near WHD and other parking.
February 16, 201114 yr What about a water taxi that runs from NC harbor, East Bank, Power House, TC Amp. and the skate park? Sounds like a nice seasonal business opportunity
February 16, 201114 yr What about a water taxi that runs from NC harbor, East Bank, Power House, TC Amp. and the skate park? Sounds like a nice seasonal business opportunity Only problem with that is the CSX bridge could put a damper on the business plan. Have to have a low-slung boat and ask your tourists to lie down, lest ye wait for the bridge keeper! Same reason that boat clubs on the river have been less than successful....
February 16, 201114 yr Author Which CSX bridge? If you're talking about the one at the mouth of the river, that's Norfolk Southern's. CSX has trackage rights over it, as does Amtrak. "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
February 16, 201114 yr The bridges stay open in the summer time to allow all ships to come through, only delayed by trains. Not sure it has that has impact on restaurants...
February 16, 201114 yr Which CSX bridge? If you're talking about the one at the mouth of the river, that's Norfolk Southern's. CSX has trackage rights over it, as does Amtrak. Sorry KJP--you are correct. After spending countless hours watching the CSX trains go over waiting on the bridge you could understand my mistake. W28th--I think you have that backwards. Trust me I've spent hours sitting there waiting on the bridge. The bridge is down most of the time for train traffic and open for the occasional freighter. The rest of the time there is some sort of schedule they follow depending on the pleasure boat traffic. Maybe a commercial vessel like the suggested water taxi would take precedent? At the least it's worth looking into should anyone actually propose such a taxi service inside and outside the river.
February 16, 201114 yr ^I'm not on the river too often, so I can't say with certainty, but isn't there a procedure for requesting a bridge lift? Some kind of horn sequence? Maybe a call on your radio? Especially in the summer, I don't think they leave the thing down unless they know there is a train approaching or already on the bridge. I see the bridge lifted about a quarter of the way a lot on weekends in the summer.
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