February 16, 201114 yr I thought the bridge is always up and then when a train is approaching, a large belching horn toots 3 or so times and the bridge begins to lower. At least that is what I witnessed while I was down at Wendy Park. Once the train has passed it raises again. Freighter and recreational traffic just has to wait for a bit. https://www.instagram.com/cle_and_beyond/https://www.instagram.com/jbkaufer/
February 16, 201114 yr Author We're starting to diverge off-topic, from the development of Flats East Bank to a water taxi to the waiting time for boats at the NS rail bridge (where the 90 daily trains have the right of way over boats). Any construction update photos now that the weather has warmed into the glorious 50s?? Woo-hoo!!! "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
February 17, 201114 yr Is anyone aware of any planned upgrades to the streets to improve the flow of traffic in & out of this area? I drove down here this weekend and I think once this development is fully occupied, there are going to be some real traffic snarls of people trying to get in & out of here. Seems ironic that the very location which makes it unique, tucked at the corner of the lake & river opening, might make it a challenge to get in/out of. Might be interesting to see how many people end up taking the Rapid to work here if it dropped you off at the front door... gottaplan, don't know if you were around in the mid-late 90s when the Flats hit its peak. There was no parking anywhere, and driving in and out of the River Road area was an absolute nightmare... AND PEOPLE LOVED IT... I think (also to answer 327, too) that RTA would definitely bring back daily service because the Flats East Bank station will let of riders diagonally across the street from the Fairmount development... (that is, unless ODOT has starved RTA out of business by then)... I have to believe that developers have their finger on the trigger and are just waiting to see how much interest the tower re-draws to the East Bank... imho, it'll be huge folks will once again realize that this amazing riverfront property, which has a romantic past in many Clevelanders' (and non-Clevelanders'), is one of the best addresses in town... with rail transit at its door, to boot.
February 17, 201114 yr ^Agreed...the chaos, traffic and pedestrians spilling over the sidewalk were all part of the ambience. People drove down into that mess to see and be seen and cruise...anybody that didn't want to deal with it parked in the WSD and walked down the hill (or took the waterfront line or didn't go). Congestion and density of people is not a bad thing...and can actually make a place more desirable for some people. Happens all of the time in old cities here and all over the world. I still say part of the death of the flats was when they made Old River Rd a one way from a two way street to better move traffic.
February 17, 201114 yr Drove by it today. There were construction workers on site and holes being bored.
February 17, 201114 yr I know this is not FEB Construction related (sorry moderators) but I was born in 1985 so I missed the "glory days" of the FEB. Does anyone out there think they can adequately explain what went wrong? I hear amazing things about a vibrant entertainment district that was one of the best in the country (?). It's hard to believe that kind of scene didn't spur a Stark like investment and a perpetually growing community in the W.H.D. during the 90s. So... what went wrong? Also, I know the FEB Entertainment district was out by Front Ave and Old River Rd, but did it go all the way up old river to W. St Clair? Did that strip of beautiful old buildings used to be alive and vibrant? Thanks for educating someone who wasn't around to see it!
February 17, 201114 yr It looks like the next couple of years are gonna be an exciting time for development here in the Cleveland area!!! Does anyone have current pics of the Flats East Bank construction??? I've been looking around online and the majority of the pics that I found were from a couple of years ago during the tearing down of the old Flats buildings. I realize that right now there probably wont be too much to look at, on the construction site, but I'd still like to see what's been done since in the past couple of months. Thanks.
February 17, 201114 yr Dar, There's not much to look at up to this point. I just drove by today. They do have a few large construction cranes on site. That's probably the most exciting thing right now.
February 18, 201114 yr Author Burnham, check out: http://www.urbanohio.com/forum2/index.php/topic,23936.msg498267.html#msg498267 Dar, welcome to the forum! Check out the most recent photos in this thread. I don't think the above-ground work has changed much since then, but then I haven't been down there in a week. "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
February 18, 201114 yr Cross posted from Flats memory thread. Forgive me if this was already posted, but Wolstein stepped down as chairman of DDR. http://crainscleveland.com/article/20110216/FREE/110219905 Scott Wolstein to step down as executive chairman of Developers Diversified Realty Corp. By STAN BULLARD 8:11 am, February 16, 2011 Scott A. Wolstein is stepping away entirely from Developers Diversified Realty Corp. (NYSE: DDR), a company he co-founded with his father. The Beachwood-based real estate investment trust announced late Tuesday that Mr. Wolstein has agreed to resign from the role of executive chairman of the company's board of directors. The company's news release announcing the move did not explain why Mr. Wolstein is stepping down as executive chairman.
February 18, 201114 yr Author For the second, time, discussions about the rise or demise of the Flats should be posted here: http://www.urbanohio.com/forum2/index.php/topic,23936.0.html This thread is about the Flats East Bank construction project itself... "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
February 18, 201114 yr Thanks, I've been watching the discussion here for a while and am glad to be a member now. Yeah, I was down in that area a few weeks ago and didnt see much. Was just hoping there had been some noticeable progress in the past 2-3 weeks. Cant wait to watch things develop as we go thru spring and summer.
February 18, 201114 yr I know its not as relevant in the first phase but I really hope this project really interacts with the river well. Promote the usage of boats, have patios on the river, etc. I know its just an earlier rendering, and although it can look cool, it doesn't seem like it interacts with the river well. A lot of empty space by the river. You need to give people more of a reason to use the boardwalk, not just build it and have everything far away from it. Hopefully once further development occurs we will get more interactive designs. http://blog.cleveland.com/business/2008/05/eua_20080508_aerial_LR.jpg
February 18, 201114 yr ... You need to give people more of a reason to use the boardwalk, not just build it and have everything far away from it. Hopefully once further development occurs we will get more interactive designs. Agreed. Any pathway along the river will not lead to anything to the north and might just stop dead at the tracks. I don't know what will be to the south for now. People will need to walk it just to say they did. There isn't any real transportation use as it stands. May it will see a lot of joggers.
February 18, 201114 yr There once was a rendering that had a banana shaped marina slightly pertuding into a boardwalk of some sorts....
February 18, 201114 yr There once was a rendering that had a banana shaped marina slightly pertuding into a boardwalk of some sorts.... This? http://www.gcbl.org/system/files/flats-east-aerial-sm.jpg
February 18, 201114 yr Also is there any chance they could connect the boardwalk to settlers landing and then have it continue to the center street bridge and into the west bank?
February 18, 201114 yr Oh and maps.bing.com has old birds eye view of the flats before most of the demolitions occurred
February 19, 201114 yr Yea, similar info on Google Maps. But at least they're updated to after the demo!!!
February 19, 201114 yr ^I'm not on the river too often, so I can't say with certainty, but isn't there a procedure for requesting a bridge lift? Some kind of horn sequence? Maybe a call on your radio? Especially in the summer, I don't think they leave the thing down unless they know there is a train approaching or already on the bridge. I see the bridge lifted about a quarter of the way a lot on weekends in the summer. There is a whole protocol to request a bridge raise. A vessel approaching the lowered bridge sounds one long, one short blast. If the bridge operator is able to comply he returns one long, one short and raises the bridge. If unable (train coming,etc) he sounds 5 short. When the bridge is coming down again the operator sounds 5 shorts. The commercial vessels like "Good Time" can be heard chattering in VHF 16 (which I like to leave on just for enjoyment). "Security Security Security, This is the Good Time III approaching the mouth of the Cuyahoga river." In the ten years I've boating down here, I have yet been able to determine a detectable pattern for whether the bridge is left up, down, or partly up. It seems "operator dependent" Once it is down, though, the operator will often wait for a critical mass of boats to build up before raising it for a few minutes to let all the boats through, then lowering it once again. Sorry for OT ..... ______
February 19, 201114 yr ^I'm not on the river too often, so I can't say with certainty, but isn't there a procedure for requesting a bridge lift? Some kind of horn sequence? Maybe a call on your radio? Especially in the summer, I don't think they leave the thing down unless they know there is a train approaching or already on the bridge. I see the bridge lifted about a quarter of the way a lot on weekends in the summer. There is a whole protocol to request a bridge raise. A vessel approaching the lowered bridge sounds one long, one short blast. If the bridge operator is able to comply he returns one long, one short and raises the bridge. If unable (train coming,etc) he sounds 5 short. When the bridge is coming down again the operator sounds 5 shorts. The commercial vessels like "Good Time" can be heard chattering in VHF 16 (which I like to leave on just for enjoyment). "Security Security Security, This is the Good Time III approaching the mouth of the Cuyahoga river." In the ten years I've boating down here, I have yet been able to determine a detectable pattern for whether the bridge is left up, down, or partly up. It seems "operator dependent" Once it is down, though, the operator will often wait for a critical mass of boats to build up before raising it for a few minutes to let all the boats through, then lowering it once again. Sorry for OT ..... ______ This is correct dergon. Textbook Coast Guard nav procedure. But as mentioned above the freight train traffic takes precedence. After all my years of boating I'm pretty sure the large lake freighters time their arrival with the harbor pilot to navigate the mouth during a down time for trains. In between these times it's a crap shoot. I remember in the heydey of the Flats waiting at that point with HUNDREDs of other boats. Today sadly there is little to venture into the river for... Didn't mean to go off topic either, other than to point out any river taxi service working inside to outside the navigation channel would have to include this problem in their business plan....
February 19, 201114 yr U can find the lift bridge opening times in your local USCG notice to mariners publication or hailing them on channel 13 the designated bridge to bridge (not neccessarily train bridge but bridge of a ship) channel. They typically raise it on a set schedule of say 10 minutes every 20 minutes, etc.
February 20, 201114 yr Alright, the bridge lift schedule discussion is informative, so the posts can stay, but let's get back on topic. Photo update of the site from 2/19/11: clevelandskyscrapers.com Cleveland Skyscrapers on Instagram
February 21, 201114 yr That was taken from Main Avenue (underneath the Main Avenue bridge), looking north. clevelandskyscrapers.com Cleveland Skyscrapers on Instagram
February 21, 201114 yr I'm having a hard time getting oriented to that pic ....where exactly? Looking North under the Main St bridge. The backs of the buildings on the right are the building facing W 9th. Edit:Oops Mayday got it already. Enjoying the holiday, Mayday?
February 21, 201114 yr "Enjoying the holiday, Mayday?" Aside from the icey coating, yes. Here's a view from Front street: clevelandskyscrapers.com Cleveland Skyscrapers on Instagram
February 21, 201114 yr I can't wait till we see a structure start going up! Thanks for the pictures mayday.
February 21, 201114 yr Author It's from Main Avenue (below the Shoreway bridge), between West 10th and West 9th, looking north to Front Street. "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
February 21, 201114 yr Author It's both ugly and beautiful. HOW IS THAT POSSIBLE. Any questions? "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
February 22, 201114 yr It's both ugly and beautiful. HOW IS THAT POSSIBLE. Ugly soils that is. I think we can all see why they are using the auger cast pile for the foundations based on the existing site conditions. The pics are much appreciated. Thanks MayDay!
February 22, 201114 yr It's both ugly and beautiful. HOW IS THAT POSSIBLE. Ugly soils that is. I think we can all see why they are using the auger cast pile for the foundations based on the existing site conditions. The pics are much appreciated. Thanks MayDay! Isn't that all infill? I thought the original bluff ran basically along Main Ave. I could swear reading that they were using a pad for the office building. I might have gotten confused, it may have been general discussions about building in Cleveland and why we have a lot of 10-15 story buildings. Anyway, good to see them working on it. That's been an open sore...
February 22, 201114 yr Regardless, nice to see work progressing. I look forward to having lots of drinks at Shooters and watching the building come together
February 22, 201114 yr Author It's both ugly and beautiful. HOW IS THAT POSSIBLE. Ugly soils that is. I think we can all see why they are using the auger cast pile for the foundations based on the existing site conditions. The pics are much appreciated. Thanks MayDay! Isn't that all infill? I thought the original bluff ran basically along Main Ave. I could swear reading that they were using a pad for the office building. I might have gotten confused, it may have been general discussions about building in Cleveland and why we have a lot of 10-15 story buildings. Anyway, good to see them working on it. That's been an open sore... Front Street was the original shoreline. Note the hillside that this site cuts into. While this is not 100% accurate, this zoom-in birdseye view from 1877 is accurate enough (you can see Front Street coming down that hill from Water (West 9th) Street by the old Union Depot, it's retaining wall is still there from 1862)... http://www.maps.com/map.aspx?pid=13130&AID=10297911&CJPID=3214&SID=popshops "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
February 22, 201114 yr Shooters has actually been booming this winter so you can get your drink on now. Place2bseen has done an incredible job hosting massive parties there on weekends.
February 22, 201114 yr Hmmm...any chance that Pearl Road has its origin in freshwater mollusks? Would love to have a better look at the city back then. I'm guessing that in the future we'll be able to visually experience cities through every time period. Thanks for posting!!! It's both ugly and beautiful. HOW IS THAT POSSIBLE. Ugly soils that is. I think we can all see why they are using the auger cast pile for the foundations based on the existing site conditions. The pics are much appreciated. Thanks MayDay! Isn't that all infill? I thought the original bluff ran basically along Main Ave. I could swear reading that they were using a pad for the office building. I might have gotten confused, it may have been general discussions about building in Cleveland and why we have a lot of 10-15 story buildings. Anyway, good to see them working on it. That's been an open sore... Front Street was the original shoreline. Note the hillside that this site cuts into. While this is not 100% accurate, this zoom-in birdseye view from 1877 is accurate enough (you can see Front Street coming down that hill from Water (West 9th) Street by the old Union Depot, it's retaining wall is still there from 1862)... http://www.maps.com/map.aspx?pid=13130&AID=10297911&CJPID=3214&SID=popshops m
February 22, 201114 yr It's both ugly and beautiful. HOW IS THAT POSSIBLE. Ugly soils that is. I think we can all see why they are using the auger cast pile for the foundations based on the existing site conditions. The pics are much appreciated. Thanks MayDay! Isn't that all infill? I thought the original bluff ran basically along Main Ave. I could swear reading that they were using a pad for the office building. I might have gotten confused, it may have been general discussions about building in Cleveland and why we have a lot of 10-15 story buildings. Anyway, good to see them working on it. That's been an open sore... Absoultely, it is all fill. The average matt/slab foundation will only extend about 10' below grade. The top ten surficial soils are most likely not sufficient to meet the load bearing capacity for the proposed structure. Therefore, the auger cast pile will extend to a depth sufficient to meet the requirements of the structure. A pier cap will be put on top of the pile that will look like the typical spread footer. You should start seeing concrete trucks down there soon. If you have seen some already, they are most likely supplying a grout like material that is filling up the auger cast pile they are drilling. The other struggle with the flats is a high water table. It's not like you can't work around that, but it is just something to design for.
February 22, 201114 yr Author It's not manmade fill. The fill is north of Front Street, starting with the railroad tracks, which was built at the edge of the original shoreline -- hence the name of Front Street. It was originally call Bath Street. Tell me: how can this site be fill when they had to cut into a hillside for the Flats East Bank project? The only "fill" is naturally set from the Cuyahoga River floodplain below the hill. Please note this map from 1835 -- BEFORE any fill was dumped into the lake to create docks for lake shipping or the shelf for the Lake Shore & Michigan Southern Railroad (Norfolk Southern, CSX and Amtrak today). You can see Bath (Front) Street. And Lighthouse Street became Main Street, which today is below the Shoreway/Main Avenue high-level bridge. So is the old lighthouse. You can still see the steps for it at the top of old Lighthouse Street and Water Street (West 9th)...... "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
February 22, 201114 yr nifty. There was probably some fill, because before dredging the flats were pretty swampy, but nothing like the lake fills
March 1, 201114 yr Judge grants Flats East Bank injunction, ensuring access to drawings for $275 million project CLEVELAND -- The developers of the Flats East Bank have control of architectural drawings for their $275 million project and can continue construction without delays caused by litigation, a Cuyahoga County judge ruled Monday. Common Pleas Court Judge John P. O'Donnell granted a preliminary injunction in favor of the Wolstein Group and Fairmount Properties, barring a Cleveland architectural firm from withholding or interfering with drawings for the office, hotel and retail project on the east bank of the Flats. The developers sued Forum Architectural Services LLC late last year, after the Cleveland architect tried to hold back its drawings during a billing dispute. The argument threatened to derail closing on the financing package for the Flats project, a development already delayed and downsized during the credit crisis. Forum claims that the Wolstein Group and Fairmount Properties owe the firm more than $2.9 million for its work and drawings. The parties never had a contract, and they disagree about the amount owed. In his ruling, O'Donnell said the dispute over money should not be allowed to delay -- or doom -- the waterfront development. http://www.cleveland.com/business/index.ssf/2011/02/flats_east_bank_developers_get.html
March 14, 201114 yr They did have a little thing in Crains this week, but I wasnt able to access the whole article.. Miami-style club, upscale restaurants on tap for Flats East Bank Smells of fine dining at four restaurants and the sounds of a seasonal riverfront nightclub could emanate from the $270 million Flats East Bank mixed-use project, which is starting to rise near the dirt that is all that remains of the former bars... http://www.crainscleveland.com/apps/pbcs.dll/section?Category=TOC
March 14, 201114 yr I got to it! Miami-style club, upscale restaurants on tap for Flats East Bank Whether Cleveland can stomach more eateries raises some concern Smells of fine dining at four restaurants and the sounds of a seasonal riverfront nightclub could emanate from the $270 million Flats East Bank mixed-use project, which is starting to rise near the dirt that is all that remains of the former bars and nightclubs that lined Old River Road. However, the Wolstein Group and Fairmount Properties, the developers of Flats East Bank, do not like the comparison of what they're planning in downtown Cleveland to the failed Flats district north of Main Avenue they razed three years ago. “This is a completely different kind of setting,” said Randy Ruttenberg, a Fairmount principal. “There is a 150-room hotel, an office building and future residential that will give it a completely different foundation as opposed to a row of clubs. We're being very careful about our selection of operators. We're looking to create a unique entertainment destination.” http://www.crainscleveland.com/article/20110314/SUB1/303149982/1053/TOC&Profile=1053
March 14, 201114 yr I'm not completely sold on a restaurant/nightclub being "seasonal". Shooters does the majority of their business during the summer months, but I'm pretty sure that they're open year round. I just think that with everything else being built up down there on the East Bank, the last thing people want to see is a building with a sign up saying "Closed for Winter"!!!
March 14, 201114 yr I'm not completely sold on a restaurant/nightclub being "seasonal". Shooters does the majority of their business during the summer months, but I'm pretty sure that they're open year round. I just think that with everything else being built up down there on the East Bank, the last thing people want to see is a building with a sign up saying "Closed for Winter"!!! I think the "Seasonal" nightclub will be more integrated into the park, and as such would probably operate closer to the Bar at Wendy Park. Which I think has seasonal hours. If it is part of the main building, then obvious fail.
March 14, 201114 yr This question has no thread, it pertains to a technical question about the formatting of the discussion threads. I am using this thread to comment about it because it demonstrates the formatting issue. Why do some of these threads have no formatting and all comments scroll off the page on my computer. This never happened before. I can no longer read the discussion without constantly scrolling to the right. How can I fix that. As I am typing this, my comment is scrolling to the right, almost indefinitely. Sorry for the question, but for some of us less savvy tech people, is there a solution? Thanks
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