I feel pretty confident is predictng there will be 3 phases, with the high end residential coming in phase 3 (if it is built at all).  They are going to have to establish a neighborhood first before even dreaming of building more high-end condos (as originally envisioned) than the rest of downtown combined. 

You think it was razed "for vacant lots"?  I guess I at least understand your confusion now.

 

It was razed and the result is vacant lots.  That's what actually happened.  Anythng else at this point is... what do you always call it... fantasy land.  Dreams, hopes, aspirations.

 

We have two other threads going where everyone's up in arms about tearing down a couple buildings that few locals are even familiar with, with a concrete and immedate plan to replace them.  Here we have a famous landmark district that just went poof and will continue as poof indefnitely.  I guess I find the outrage levels a bit imbalanced.  It's an opinion, man, and not entrely uninformed.  But then again maybe I'm just crazy/stupid/uneducated/etc.

 

Great point.  Everyone is all bent out of shape about potential impacts of Casino construction, but this mud field that has been a mud field for 4 years in perhaps the most prime real estate in Cleveland is "a by-product of the economic crash" so that's accepted.  When does the economic crisis stop being a viable excuse?  Pretty sure banks ar lending these days...

They are.  And financing has been secured through a very complex package.  And construction has started.  And steel should be rising out of the ground very soon.

^If by construction you mean temporary green space, then I guess.  But there is no building construction anywhere near the footprints of the demoed buildings. 

True.  But the "mudpit" should dissappear soon enough.  And, correct me if I am wrong, but banks are NOT currently lending for the type of development (higher end condos) envisioned for the part of this development where the (mostly) vacant building were.  Also, I was under the impression that the infrastructure work needed to be done required the flattening of the entire lot..... so I am not sure that they could have done it in the phases that would have appeased those all up in arms about the current state of things.

^I agree with you that it's still a difficult development environment out there, and I don't blame Wolstein/Fairmount for not being able to build everything now.  And I'm sure leveling everything made infrastructure work easier, even for the site that's actually under construction now.  It's just stinks because one could imagine an alternative reality where those buildings still stand, the hotel and office building are under construction, and Fairmount/Wolstein decide that given the difficult lending/economic environment they'll stray from the original, ambitious master plan and instead try to use the new stuff as an anchor for a more incremental build-out that included redeveloping the older buildings on the east side of Old River Rd.

 

Edit:

so I am not sure that they could have done it in the phases that would have appeased those all up in arms about the current state of things.

 

Of course they could have done it in a way consistent with phasing; the question is how much more would phased infrastructure cost for the future phase, who would pay it, and whether the retained flexibility would have been worth it.  And even that isn't the the whole question, because if that temporary green space doesn't get developed for a long time, how much value was there really in building it out all at once when half of it is sitting unused under temporary green space?

Let me tell you something.  I just started a new project outside of Canton on March 28, 2011.  You would never think that anything is going on.  This sprong has been the wettest spring that I can remember in a long time.  The last thing I am going to do is stick a bunch of equipment on an overly saturated site just to tear it all up.  If I had to guess, the Flats are in about the same position. 

^I have not been down there but I would have to agree with you that with the "spring" we have been having the site must be just one big mud pit.

 

Due to this fact, I would imagine the gc and the initial subs are glad they had not been further along with a greater mobilization of equipment, materials and men.  They would all be just sitting around with somebody bearing the cost.

I live on the North end of West 9th in the Waterstreet Condos and it is indeed very muddy.  There is constantly and streetsweeper truck basically washing the north end of west 9th every morning.  I also want to point out that dump trucks/semi trucks are lined up every morning around 8 or 830 on West 9th waiting to be loaded with debris/dirt/cement etc.  Work is definitely being done on the East Bank.

While the site is definitely still in "moving dirt around" mode (to the casual viewer) and oh yeah, muddy as all heck - I decided to snap a few photos from the Main Avenue side of the site. Glad I did.

 

 

Okay, so it's a *really* muddy pit - what caught my eye? If my knowledge of high-rise construction serves me correctly, those dark stacks on the left are piles of structural steel  :-)

 

Flats East Bank developers sign deal for restaurants and outdoor nightclub

By Michelle Jarboe, The Plain Dealer

 

CLEVELAND, Ohio -- The developers of the Flats East Bank project have inked a deal with a local burger joint, lined up prospects for a Mexican restaurant and a steakhouse, and recruited a local operator to open an outdoor nightclub along the Cuyahoga River.

 

Michael Schwartz has signed on to open a seasonal nightclub and another location of Flip Side, a Hudson burger restaurant where he is a partner. The restaurant could be joined by three other eateries on West 10th Street and several other waterfront venues.

 

Read more at: http://www.cleveland.com/business/index.ssf/2011/05/flats_east_bank_project.html

Sounds like phase 2 might be here sooner than a lot of us expected

I agree that the restaurants/retail they get down there has to be unique. Especially at first since it will be a little out of the way in my opinion. Something that will have a big draw.

At first glance, I wonder if the two story restaurant they note, with locations in Cincy and Columbus, could be the fabled Montgomery Inn from Cincy. THAT could be a draw....

Is there one in the Cbus?

Is there a Lindey's in Cincy?

Sounds like phase 2 might be here sooner than a lot of us expected

 

Phase 2's announcement will come soon, I'll bet.  The Flats is too unique not to spark a building feeding frenzy.  And as development pundits have long pointed out, interested developers often sit on the sidelines waiting for the other guy to test the waters (see: taking the risk) before making a move in dowtown Cleveland.

I believe in a few years that area will be the place to go during the summer, it will be a huge draw much like the Flats of old. And just imagine a boardwalk and bulkhead like the one in the rendering from the old coast guard station to up and around the Scranton peninsula. It would change this city. I have been one to slam Wolstein in the past but I appreciate the vision they are putting forward with this.

No Lindys in Cincy, and The Inn- of the Montgomery variety- is pretty overrated. 

They tried a 2nd Lindey's location at Polaris Mall in cbus a few years ago and ended up converting to a bravo or bio..

The more I hear about FEB the less I like it. It just sounds like a duplication of venues we already have. I think the restaurants will drain on the WHD, the offices will drain on the CBD, and these "clubs" will be a drain on entertainment districts all over the city. A "house of Blues style club?" we already subsidized one if those.

W 10th is technically in the WHD, no?

W 10th is technically in the WHD, no?

 

The uphill side is, yes. The lower side is in the Flats. See the planning area maps for the CDCs.

There is another site I'm sure you would love, it's called Cleveland.com. Lord

The more I hear about FEB the less I like it. It just sounds like a duplication of venues we already have. I think the restaurants will drain on the WHD, the offices will drain on the CBD, and these "clubs" will be a drain on entertainment districts all over the city. A "house of Blues style club?" we already subsidized one if those.

Sorry, sfbob, my bust, I think it's all great.

The more I hear about FEB the less I like it. It just sounds like a duplication of venues we already have. I think the restaurants will drain on the WHD, the offices will drain on the CBD, and these "clubs" will be a drain on entertainment districts all over the city. A "house of Blues style club?" we already subsidized one if those.

 

I disagree.  In my opinion all the other entertainment districts are doing just fine.  This just creates another destination.  Duplication of what venues?  Restaurants? Clubs?  Putting a chain restaurant or bar down there would be a duplication of venues...not proprietary restaurants or clubs.

Is there one in the Cbus?

Is there a Lindey's in Cincy?

 

Just a side note, if people remember, long ago, there was a Lindey's in Beachwood Place on the second floor in a space that started as a Boston seafood sort of restaurant IIRC.  The Lindey's there failed.

I'm really looking forward to this project. I live very close to this area and I can see the river out my window and I just think about all the awesome development that could go in along the river. It would be great to have some kind of riverwalk or boardwalk. There also desperately needs to be a better connection between the two banks of the Flats. I am only about 1000 feet away from Nautica yet it would take be 15-20 minutes to walk over there.

 

I also wish something could be done with Settler's Landing Park. It's a decent park, but it would be great if we could get more people down there somehow, like with a festival or something.

It just sounds like a duplication of venues

 

 

I think the "duplication of venues" isn't a problem, in fact I'd say it's what we need (as in multiple entertainment districts).  The issue is, as always, the number of patrons to these places (and downtown in general).

 

I live in D.C. and when it comes to "going out" there are 4 standard entertainment neighborhoods:

 

Dupont Circle

U Street Corridor

Adams Morgan

Georgetown

 

Recently H Street corridor (the Atlas District) has exploded and, in its own style, offers another neighborhood.  No one ever worries about it siphoning off traffic from other areas even though they all have similar bars, restaurants and clubs, and that's because there are lots of patrons.

 

So we should encourage multiple "entertainment destinations" and hope the continued improvement of the downtown community increases patrons.

 

Well DC is a bit of a different story...  When Cleveland has the amount of tourists, visitors, density and jobs then I would say that....  DC has been witnessing a great deal of pent up demand the past few years that is just now being met.

 

Theres no doubt that what does happen in Cleveland, and we see it again and again, is that the previous "hot" areas transition, which I guess isnt so bad as long as they stay stable.

I guess even DC has seen that happen with 18th St. in Adams Morgan

 

At its peak, how many clubs/bars/restaurants were there in the Flats East and West Bank? 40 or 50?

 

Well DC is a bit of a different story...

 

My point exactly.  The difference is the amount of people frequenting the different entertainment zones, not the zones themselves.  Personally I like the idea that I could go out to Tremont, FEB, E4, WHD, Coventry or Uptown if I was deciding what kind of night I wanted to have.  Toss in a few thousand more residents, some more CSU kids and a better network of public transit and Cleveland has a nightlife to rival many other cities.  It just needs a bit time to grow.

The more I hear about FEB the less I like it. It just sounds like a duplication of venues we already have. I think the restaurants will drain on the WHD, the offices will drain on the CBD, and these "clubs" will be a drain on entertainment districts all over the city. A "house of Blues style club?" we already subsidized one if those.

 

So what's the other option?  You have this space that now is ripe for development and a developer willing to pay millions to make something happen there.  If he shouldn't put restaurants, offices and clubs there, what should go there?

I agree that there's not much else to do with it now and this is probably the best option. However, I just find this particular version to be a great disappointment compared to the plan offered previously. If the residential is added, then obviously the complexion of the plan and my opinion of it changes. I do think it is a bit naive to pretend like this won't have a profound effect on the office and retail markets in other downtown districts. It's an undeniable fact that enormous public subsidy went into this, both in the more traditional form (my quick tally indicates over half the project financing?) and in the implied threat of eminent domain. I know there was no guarantee that Ernst and Young would stay downtown (although I think accounting firms generally stay in CBDs) but we are creating new infrastructure without creating new residents or jobs. For the record I don't have millions of dollars to invest and I don't necessarily think I could do a better job. I'll waddle back off to Cleveland dot com now.

^You're not the only one who's disappointed in how this has panned out, bumsquare.  But that die is cast, so I my only hope now is that this project ultimately is a draw for people and businesses both within and outside of the region.

Went for a jog through the east bank today (yeah, I'm crazy, it's 90+ degrees) and they're pouring the concrete pad. Woohoo!!  (A coworker heard on the radio about it, that was what inspired me.) Check out this link:

 

http://www.wtam.com/cc-common/news/sections/newsarticle.html?feed=122520&article=8642412

^Awesome news for the project

 

...How awful must it be to pour concrete on a day like today!

Go Cleveland!!  :clap:

It is great news to finally watch this project to start sprouting up.  On a side note does anyone

seem to know whatever happened to My Two Cents. I haven't seen any of his posts for a couple of months.

I saw this in Scene the other day.  Thought some of you might get a kick out of.

 

Pic of the Day: A Vision of the East Bank of the Flats

Posted by Vince Grzegorek on Fri, May 27, 2011 at 9:53 AM

 

The Plain Dealer reports this morning that plans for the East Bank of the Flats are moving along. In addition to a burger joint, developers are working on a seasonal nightclub, a Mexican restaurant, and a steakhouse. In other words, the prized land on the banks of the Cuyahoga River will resemble Macedonia or Strongsville...........

...............  So maybe the reality is something more akin to Crocker Park.

 

Forum Architectural Services LLC released a rendering of the finished product, including the nightclub, which promises "a South Beach feel with a Vegas attitude." A few things we can learn from the image: 1) Apparently, the project will draw yachts to Cleveland. Who knew? 2) The architects are big on lights. Like, really big. 3) At least 74 people will come to see what's happening. 4) Very few of them will be black.

http://www.clevescene.com/scene-and-heard/archives/2011/05/27/pic-of-the-day-a-vision-of-the-east-bank-of-the-flats

 

Scene......sucks. 

For the record, lots of yachts used to go to shooters and the rest of the flats

I realize Scene isn't serious journalism, but even those kinds of comments are low-class and disappointing for any human being.

1 large concrete pad has been poured and another framed out with rebar for pouring.

what the? pouring concrete in the flats? now that news is a good way to start the summer!

I haven't been able to access UO from Case again as of late, but I just wanted to say that the media coverage of this over the past few days has irked me.  They've been all like "Work has started...."  Um, no, work started a while ago.  They're just now starting the actual structure building phase.  Andplusalso, shame on Scene.

i think I'll celebrate by having drinks Friday after work at Shooters and trying to envision the completed project...

Andplusalso

 

the newspeak, it is doubleplusstrong with you.

Andplusalso

 

the newspeak, it is doubleplusstrong with you.

 

Heh, it's a common phrase on another forum I'm on.  My fingers type faster than my brain thinks sometimes.

I'm planning on shooters Saturday night. Looking forward to seeing the construction

Here is a photo from 6/1/200111:

 

 

Here is a photo from 6/1/2001:

 

 

 

I can guarantee you the East Bank didn't look that that in 2001.  ;)