Thank you Clueless,Ohio.

That is exactly what I meant. I unfortunately live in Los Angeles and have not been to that area for at least 20 years . I do not exactly know how the layout of the tracks worked.

This thread has been quiet for awhile.  Does anyone know if there is any steel rising yet?  If there is, could we have some pictures?

Most of the progress this week has been in the area immediately west of the tower's base.  Foundation for the garage?

West of the tower would be the hotel I think.

I'm BEGGING someone, ANYONE, to make me feel better about this and not feel that this could be disasterous:

Port Authority approves plan over developer's objection

 

"Elements of the plan include: exploring a ferry service to Canada, finding uses for silt dredged from the Cuyahoga River, fixing the crumbling hillside along the Irishtown Bend section of the river, trying to attract container cargo from Montreal, consolidating port operations and promoting development from North Coast Harbor, and replacing river bulkheads.

 

But Adam Fishman, vice president of Flats East Bank, said he and his boss Scott Wolstein are concerned about the future use of land directly north of where they plan to build 125-300 high-end apartments as part of phase II of their redevelopment project.

 

An e-mail message sent from Wolstein to Port President Will Friedman on Tuesday suggests phase II could be in peril as a result of the plan."

 

http://blog.cleveland.com/metro/2011/09/port_authority_approves_plan_o.html

I'm BEGGING someone, ANYONE, to make me feel better about this and not feel that this could be disasterous:

 

I'm not sure exactly where Phase II will be (since to me it seems they're using all their land on surface lots in Phase I with no room for a Phase II, but I don't see any problems with the Port Authority taking over the responsibilities the rest of the city has neglected.  Their operations won't be off port land except for the possibility of replacing the river bulkheads.  I'd imagine FEB would be very happy with the concept of having their property not falling into the river, but that's just me.

^^I'm not sure what Wolstein is complaining about.  He's dismayed that the Port land will be used for Port operations?  Unless he's concerned about 100 foot tall stacks of containers blocking views from his apartments / condos (which is unlikely IMO), then I'm not sure he has firm ground to stand on.  The noise from the trains is going to be a bigger issue for his residents if you ask me.

 

^Phase II is to be built on top of some or most of the surface lots. 

He is just playing hardball and being pushy.  His project will go through and it seems like the Port folks are willing to work.  Wolstein wants that project to meet full potential  Why wouldnt he?  If it doesnt, he is the one losing out.  Im going to put my money that the project moves forward just fine.

I hope all of you are right. Because we can't afford for a plan of 125-300 high end apartments to just disappear. That would be very, very bad.

^It's already disappeared once.  We'll be just fine.

 

Am I the only one that doesn't expect phase II to be constructed by 2020?  I'm hoping that it will move forward quickly and as planned, but I'm doubtful given the extended economic slump and continued inability to get a mortgage for a condo.

^^ I think our port is much more important than a few high-end apartments.  High-end apartments can be built throughout the city.  The port can really only be in one place.  I think our port is a lot more important for business than FEB, and I think every other major port city would choose their port over apartments as well.  I lived in Miami for 5 years, you can see and hear the port's activity from every high rise on the beachfront... doesn't hurt a bit.. in fact, you can physically watch the money pull into port :)

He probably feels new residents will more likely want to live down there if there is development potential for the neighborhood

to extend to the lake.  Similar development that has been studied by Stark and Eckstut. 

Am I the only one that doesn't expect phase II to be constructed by 2020?  I'm hoping that it will move forward quickly and as planned, but I'm doubtful given the extended economic slump and continued inability to get a mortgage for a condo.

 

Actually, given how tight the downtown rental market is, I could imagine some residential construction down there before 2020.  Not sure I'd bet on it, but it's totally conceivable.  It would be rental though.

 

^^I'm not sure what Wolstein is complaining about.  He's dismayed that the Port land will be used for Port operations?  Unless he's concerned about 100 foot tall stacks of containers blocking views from his apartments / condos (which is unlikely IMO), then I'm not sure he has firm ground to stand on.  The noise from the trains is going to be a bigger issue for his residents if you ask me.

 

In fairness to Wolstein, I think the planning for FEB occurred when the port was still working with the old pie in the sky plan that would have moved the real port operations to the new peninsula east of downtown.  But I agree with you that there's probably nothing much to worry about here.  And I'm kind of baffled by the tone of that email...it's not like the port's scaled-back plans were developed secretly or just in the last couple weeks. 

More (cross-posted from the Cleveland port authority thread in the transportation section)......

 

Flats East Bank developers raise late objections to Port Authority strategic plan

By JAY MILLER

3:44 pm, September 21, 2011

 

The developer of the $275 million Flats East Bank project is butting heads with the Cleveland-Cuyahoga County Port Authority over the maritime agency's plans for its property along the lakefront.

 

Developer Scott Wolstein, in an exchange of emails Tuesday with Port Authority president William Friedman, said the port's new strategic plan “could not conceivably be more offensive to our vision for the development of this area of the city, and, frankly, it may well jeopardize the entire Phase 2 development (of the Flats East Bank) that is based on a significant residential component.”

 

The strategic plan commits the Port Authority to keep its docks at the mouth of the Cuyahoga River and says the agency will work to grow its shipping business by seeking to bring to Cleveland containerized cargo and cargo such as wind turbine parts. The plan also envisions the Port Authority playing a key role in the maintenance of the waterfront and Cuyahoga River channel beyond its docks.

 

READ MORE AT:

http://www.crainscleveland.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20110921/FREE/110929940#

With all the greenspace left over from the shrinking of the original plan, there's really not too much for Wolstein to complain about.  He has more than enough land to build the apartments on.  And yes, the health and potential growth of the port is MUCH more important than 300 apartments.

I think Wolstein's just looking for a way to justify to the public scaling back or cancelling Phase 2.

^^ I think our port is much more important than a few high-end apartments.  High-end apartments can be built throughout the city.  The port can really only be in one place.  I think our port is a lot more important for business than FEB, and I think every other major port city would choose their port over apartments as well.  I lived in Miami for 5 years, you can see and hear the port's activity from every high rise on the beachfront... doesn't hurt a bit.. in fact, you can physically watch the money pull into port :)

 

Ok well that makes me feel a little bit better. Lol. I just know how it goes when it comes to the waterfront. There's always been this conflict between industry and recreation that has held development up. I was all for the Port plan before this. It does still concern me a bit, but I'm not in full on panic mode now. Thanks :) lol

Where were the Flats East Bank developers when this was going on??? Duh!? I think the Port needs to at least become mixed use. Why even build a Class A office tower (or any other buildings on the Flats East Bank) if they are just going to end up just south of a dump that is the Port of Cleveland. I say scrap the Port's plan and start over! Who wants an office building with views of an ugly port?? Not me!

Personally I hope the port can still move somewhere eventually. There is so much lakefront land that would be prime for development. Cleveland makes the least use of its waterfront compared to any other city I've been to.

What are the chances of Phase II of the FEB project (as envisioned with "high-end" condos) AND whatever the latest long-term plan for the Port BOTH coming to fruition so that butting heads is even possible?  Not very high in my estimation.

^Yep (slow head nod)

With all the greenspace left over from the shrinking of the original plan, there's really not too much for Wolstein to complain about.  He has more than enough land to build the apartments on.  And yes, the health and potential growth of the port is MUCH more important than 300 apartments.

 

My take is that Woltein and Fishman don't think that Flats residents will want to look out their windows at a working port facility. I disagree. I think that would be more interesting to watch than just about anything that's on TV these days.

 

I think Wolstein's just looking for a way to justify to the public scaling back or cancelling Phase 2.

 

Sounds like it. The demand is there, but perhaps he can't make the numbers work to finance it.

I think Wolstein's just looking for a way to justify to the public scaling back or cancelling Phase 2.

 

That seems to be the only logical reading of this.  The timing of it really is strange, since the rest of us have known for the better part of a year that the port isn't moving.  Wolstein can't possibly have just now gotten word.  Considering the long timeframe of the FEB project thus far, the port's relocation idea was a flash in the plan.  Surely they realized from the beginning that they were building right next to an active port.

 

There's still a possibility of more residential and mixed use in that general area, if the Browns' plan comes to fruition.  The port standing pat hardly seems like a dealbreaker for any aspect of FEB.  If it is, then the extent of the planning blunders here are truly monumental.  But it sounds more like a pretense for putting a whole lotta greenspace where there used to be city.  Again. 

 

 

 

 

Does the vision for FEB II involve apartments or condos?  That would make a huge difference in securing financing for the foreseeable future, I would think. 

 

Lookong at the glass half full, perhaps this could spark a return to the concept of a lower, more densely built neighborhood..... kind of like every single other succesful mixed use area in Cleveland.... and which would keep with the feel of the flats.  Sure, the lakeviews are somewhat compromised, but at least then only the personnel at E&Y have to be horrified by the view of shipping containers and cranes.

If they're thinking condos, then they haven't read the news for several years.  But I agree that something lower and denser is probably for the best here.

I think Wolstein's just looking for a way to justify to the public scaling back or cancelling Phase 2.

 

 

thats probably it, but i do think he somehow hoped for lakefront access and development on port land too, although not sure why after the port move plan died? maybe that can happen along the river instead via some creative renovation of land and the old remaining flats building to the south? regardless, developers will just have to work around living with a hopefully more active port. personally i think that potentially sounds like a vibrant and interesting place to live and work and i am sure many others do as well.

 

A Feb. 7, 2011 Crains article discussed the possibility of phase 2 beginning sooner than later.  It was clear from the article that it was going to be rental apartments and not condos as the "condo market in Cleveland is dead".  Suggestion in the article that Fairmont and Wolstein might partner with K and D and that K and D was very interested and there had been discussions.  Fishman was quoted in the article  "Our charge from (Mr. Wolstein) is to start working on phase two immediately".

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

A Feb. 7, 2011 Crains article....

 

Fishman was quoted in the article  "Our charge from (Mr. Wolstein) is to start working on phase two immediately".

 

 

So here it is seven months later... I don't know how long it takes to bring together such a project. Perhaps seven months isn't enough time to learn if the project is likely to happen. Perhaps it is enough time. If so, it sounds like something hasn't gone well with the project in the last seven months.

 

EDIT: OK, here we go. Yep, the port authority is helping to finance Flats East Bank. OK, sure, Wolstein/Fishman didn't know what their banker/lender had in mind for the port expansion. Sorry, not buying it. I think the port may be using up its debt capacity for the port expansion, and have little or nothing left for the Phase II (residential) of Flats East Bank.

 

I totally forgot about this. Something tells me the real story is probably in here somewhere.....

 

Port Authority OKs financing package for Cleveland's Flats East Bank neighborhood

By JAY MILLER

2:16 pm, November 17, 2010

 

With the help of large amounts of equity from members of the Wolstein family, the financing for the $275 million Flats East Bank development is set to close by the end of the year.

 

A multilayered package of debt was approved this morning by the Cleveland-Cuyahoga County Port Authority, which will be the conduit for much of the debt. It will allow construction to begin in December on an 18-story office tower, a hotel, parking garage and retail space on a former parking lot on the east bank of the Cuyahoga River. Construction is expected to be completed by spring 2013.

 

Adam Fishman, a principal with Fairmount Properties, a co-developer of the project with the Wolstein family, told Port Authority board members that the financing they were asked to approve includes $108 million in first mortgage bonds placed with Wells Fargo Bank, the Ohio Realty Development Fund, a carpenters' union pension fund and the Cleveland International Fund. The Cleveland International Fund is an investment fund created by Eddy Zai, a Pepper Pike business consultant, to attract foreign investment.

 

READ MORE AT:

http://www.crainscleveland.com/article/20101117/FREE/101119700#

Even assuming the port was destined to move, FEB is still a development surrounded by or entwined with a highly active rail corridor; a freeway; a light rail line, and an active shipping channel.  Also, I wouldn't put much stock in Wolstein and a theoretical developer of the west end of the port being able to effectively marry the two developments together if it did happen with the rail corridor and also given the existing drawings for the full project.  So then what would be the difference other than the future port west developments hampering the views of their proposed apartments?  Say the port does somehow manage to have a respectable container business.  The container movers aren't going to beat out the noise from everything else going on around there.

Personally I hope the port can still move somewhere eventually. There is so much lakefront land that would be prime for development. Cleveland makes the least use of its waterfront compared to any other city I've been to.

 

The port is in the optimum place it can ever be right now, since it's at the precipice of the river, the lake, and the tracks. I don't see any reason to move it to a less convenient location.  On the other hand, Cleveland does have lakefront outside of the WHD and Flats... In fact, I think Lake Erie may even be pretty large!  Why can't they redevelop Lakeside and E. 12-E. 26 area.  Get the college crowd, and locate the housing closer to the CBD?  I dont think WKYC and the FBI need little one story buildings on our "lakefront"  (yes I know there is an airport in front of it, but maybe people in high rises thing decrepit airports are more fun than ports).  Sorry to get away from FEB in this post.

Wouldn't the port moving mean displacing that nature preserve? If that's the case I'm all for the port staying right where they're at.

Wouldn't the port moving mean displacing that nature preserve? If that's the case I'm all for the port staying right where they're at.

 

Dont believe so

 

Also I always thought this would be a good idea. When I searched it on google to see if it had already been proposed I saw KJP thought of the same thing! Haha

 

I got your Burke expansion right here... This is my concept of expanding and relocating the port of Cleveland. With the worsening tightness of affordable oil supplies, water transport will be increasingly important and air transport less affordable. But I'm still not willing to sacrifice Burke...yet.

 

Also I always thought this would be a good idea. When I searched it on google to see if it had already been proposed I saw KJP thought of the same thing! Haha

 

 

One of these days I'm going to publish a book of my crazy ideas. I've conjured a million of them like that over the past 30 years.

With all the greenspace left over from the shrinking of the original plan, there's really not too much for Wolstein to complain about.  He has more than enough land to build the apartments on.  And yes, the health and potential growth of the port is MUCH more important than 300 apartments.

 

My take is that Woltein and Fishman don't think that Flats residents will want to look out their windows at a working port facility. I disagree. I think that would be more interesting to watch than just about anything that's on TV these days.

 

Agree.  The ambiance from the boat traffic and industrial nature of the flats is the best part about living there.

Here's a few pics of the Flats East Bank progress that I took today.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Fascinating! Thanks!!

Thanks for the pictures. This is interesting tower construction because its not in plain view.

Yea, it'll be easier to notice the progress on the building when they're a few stories "above ground".

You could easily see the progress from my seats in the dawg pound at the Browns game. I wanted to take the waterfront line to the stadium because it takes you right by it, but we just walked from Tower City instead.

Question from Cle: Wouldn't the port moving mean displacing that nature preserve? If that's the case I'm all for the port staying right where they're at.

 

 

No, but it would severely compromise it. The alternatives to the move and why the current proposal is a lot of sham...was discussed on the move thread, but sends many UO'ers into denial, as the idea of alternatives are hardly considered and since the only side to the story comes from the port influence.  Ooops...  I slaughtered a sacred cow here....

 

 

 

Well, we have to create land for the Cuyahoga river dredgings, right? So I think it makes sense to move the port onto a new piece of land, especially since the current port location could be prime real estate. Cleveland current use of the waterfront is pathetic. Of course, there are probably better locations for a port. How about Jane Campbell's plan of building a new island just north of Whiskey Island for the port?

 

 

(also I apologize for being off topic)

From today - looks like the first two (of three) parking levels are close to completion; elevator core continues to grow:

 

Didn't have my camera (and I do not take photos while driving), but the top of the elevator core is now visible from the Shoreway/Main Avenue bridge.

Just saw this update from Channel 19 news.

http://www.woio.com/story/15721996/the-flats-east-bank-project-in-full-swing

Mayday,

 

Thanks for the great shot.

Not a very good photo, but I saw the FEB construction in passing today.

 

"Not a very good photo..."

 

Hope you don't mind but I disagree - I really like that shot :-)

Id have to agree with MayDay, awesome shot! The fact that you got the interior of the train in the shot made it that much better! Glad you didn't just zoom in.