August 15, 20168 yr Phase 3 will tie together the Aloft side and the water side... and can't come quickly enough. With that said, Crop overbuilt. Simple as that. Seemed wrong from day one. Flip side, who knows. The always busy one here in downtown Chagrin Falls seems less busy - and they just started a happy hour, which they didn't have the 4-5 prior years they have been open. Wonder why? Burger trend over? Just had a work friend from Green Bay visit for football Hall of Fame over weekend. He and friends (without me included as tour guide) found the Flats East Bank raved about the FEB and downtown. By the time I made it to Green Bay for a meeting this week, everybody in office has heard how great CLE was now. I just hope Fairmount makes a firm announcement about Phase 3 soon as it would likely instill some confidence among the vendors. I'm a little concerned the cost overruns problem that came to light a few months ago may be holding things up.
August 15, 20168 yr I've been to Flipside, but was not impressed myself with the atmosphere, or the food. Neither were the people with me. If I am going downtown to get a burger, I would much rather go to Little Johnny's on Frankfort. Love their burgers (best in the CLE IMO), and the gritty atmosphere is pretty cool too. Have gone there many, many times with out-of-towners and locals.
August 15, 20168 yr Why does FEB have to be exclusively restaurants and night clubs? Friday and Saturday after 10 pm the neighborhood is hopping, but what is there to do the rest of the time? I know Fairmount and the wolsteins keep hosting festivals and such but... Any other form of retail would go a long way towards making the Eastbank a lasting destination. Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk
August 15, 20168 yr I agree, the restaurant/club scene is way over-saturated. I'd like to see that micro-retail concept come to life downtown, and the flats would be a good place to start.
August 15, 20168 yr There's only, what, one or two nightclubs in FEB? The rest are bars and restaurants. It's not like FEB is overrun with nightclubs. And the one I know for sure they have, FWD, does quite well. I do agree there should be more diversification, but it's not like there's a ton of nightclubs in FEB. (I would argue that it wouldn't hurt to have a couple more but I digress)
August 16, 20168 yr ^^^It's a good point. My friends and I head down to FEB quite frequently after meetings, but we go to a restaurant/bar and then leave. There are only so many restaurants you can hit up in one day. At least bring in a chocolate shop or ice cream place or something that complements a meal. Bringing this back to the Crop Trio, while the closure of Crop in Uptown is quite sad, I did not enjoy my experience at the FEB Crops and neither had anyone I've spoken with.
August 16, 20168 yr Am I right that the Crop closure does not include OnAir? Would like to see that succeed. Also unless things have changed 2 more venues will open over the next six months Margaritaville and Rascal Flatts. Both 10k sq ft and above. Be interesting to see the impact they have.
August 16, 20168 yr Speaking of chocolate shop... A Kilwin's candy/ice cream shop was on the FEB leasing map, in/near the Beerhead space in the past 12-18 months... Also, the "road" between Alley Cat and Coastal Taco appears to be (mostly) car ready bit has been closed for pedestrian traffic each time I have been there.a the meant to be people only.. bit being able to drive by storefronts would likely be beneficial to business traffic. E 4th is closed to cars but is a natural walk-through due to stadium/arena parking etc...
August 16, 20168 yr 2 more venues will open over the next six months Margaritaville and Rascal Flatts. Both 10k sq ft and above. Be interesting to see the impact they have. Good point. Both of those should bring in people that won't normally venture down there.
August 16, 20168 yr 2 more venues will open over the next six months Margaritaville and Rascal Flatts. Both 10k sq ft and above. Be interesting to see the impact they have. Good point. Both of those should bring in people that won't normally venture down there. The FEB could benefit from some family friendly attractions. Something to help diversify, like the Aquarium on the West Bank. Right now FEB reminds me of an adult Disneyland.
August 16, 20168 yr I was at FWD last Thursday and was talking with one of the bartenders. Apparently the soft opening of Magnolia is this weekend? Has anyone heard anything more about the space or found pictures of the inside? It's supposed to be really small inside, much smaller than FWD. I snapped a couple photos of the outside omw to FWD too.
August 16, 20168 yr It's not overrun, but the current retail list is: Bold-restaurant Lago-restaurant Willeyville-restaurant Flipside-restaurant Punchbowl-bar/arcade/restaurant Beerhead-bar with food Costal taco-bar with food Alleycat-restaurant FWD-bar Big bang-bar Crop sticks-restaurant Crop rocks-restaurant Water taxi Eastbank fitness. Outside of eating and drinking there isn't much else to do. That's not how you build a long term stable neighborhood. Give me a coffee shop (doughnuts close enough) or a bookstore or a yoga studio or dry cleaners or anything else that's part of a modern dense neighborhood
August 16, 20168 yr It's not overrun, but the current retail list is: Bold-restaurant Lago-restaurant Willeyville-restaurant Flipside-restaurant Punchbowl-bar/arcade/restaurant Beerhead-bar with food Costal taco-bar with food Alleycat-restaurant FWD-bar Big bang-bar Crop sticks-restaurant Crop rocks-restaurant Water taxi Eastbank fitness. Outside of eating and drinking there isn't much else to do. That's not how you build a long term stable neighborhood. Give me a coffee shop (doughnuts close enough) or a bookstore or a yoga studio or dry cleaners or anything else that's part of a modern dense neighborhood I agree that there should be greater variety, but I doubt a bookstore has profit margins to support the rent and there is a yoga studio and a dry cleaners just down the road in cheaper rent areas. We also have to remember there is are only around 4,400 residents in the area currently and not a lot of office activity. Until there is a greater residential market (coming in the next few years) or more of a tourist draw, I don't see much more than entertainment type establishments.
August 16, 20168 yr It's not overrun, but the current retail list is: Bold-restaurant Lago-restaurant Willeyville-restaurant Flipside-restaurant Punchbowl-bar/arcade/restaurant Beerhead-bar with food Costal taco-bar with food Alleycat-restaurant FWD-bar Big bang-bar Crop sticks-restaurant Crop rocks-restaurant Water taxi Eastbank fitness. Outside of eating and drinking there isn't much else to do. That's not how you build a long term stable neighborhood. Give me a coffee shop (doughnuts close enough) or a bookstore or a yoga studio or dry cleaners or anything else that's part of a modern dense neighborhood Rome wasn't built in a day. FEB is barely a year old and only in Phase 2; Phase 3 hasn't broken ground (or even been announced when the ground breaking will take place, sadly). FEB needs to first grow a steady client base. It's trying. The different festivals and events, including this year's Flat out Fridays, is just a start. Even the Water Taxi, which is still in its infancy, for now, just goes back 'n forth across the river. I would give it time to grow. Hell, look at how many decades it took for Ohio City, notably the Market Square District, to grow. As someone up-thread noted, FEB is in an isolated location at the bottom of a steep hill from downtown on an unfamiliar train line. Right now word of mouth is bringing more and more people in. Neighborhoods usually just don't spring full blown. Phase 3 should have more of the type of retail you're talking about.
August 16, 20168 yr It's not overrun, but the current retail list is: Bold-restaurant Lago-restaurant Willeyville-restaurant Flipside-restaurant Punchbowl-bar/arcade/restaurant Beerhead-bar with food Costal taco-bar with food Alleycat-restaurant FWD-bar Big bang-bar Crop sticks-restaurant Crop rocks-restaurant Water taxi Eastbank fitness. Outside of eating and drinking there isn't much else to do. That's not how you build a long term stable neighborhood. Give me a coffee shop (doughnuts close enough) or a bookstore or a yoga studio or dry cleaners or anything else that's part of a modern dense neighborhood Magnolia is a nightclub masquerading as a donut/coffee shop. They'll actually be serving donuts and coffee though :wink:
August 16, 20168 yr 2 more venues will open over the next six months Margaritaville and Rascal Flatts. Both 10k sq ft and above. Be interesting to see the impact they have. Good point. Both of those should bring in people that won't normally venture down there. The FEB could benefit from some family friendly attractions. Something to help diversify, like the Aquarium on the West Bank. Right now FEB reminds me of an adult Disneyland. The water taxi connects the aquarium to FEB so I agree, there needs to be some more family friendly stuff down there. I've been to the FEB on weekend afternoons and there seems to be lots of families roaming around but very little for them to do. Most of the restaurants aren't family friendly. There isn't a splash pad, giant chess board or a playground in the development. To me, that's a lost opportunity especially since you have a large family attraction just across the river. Somebody downtown should try to capitalize on attracting families as it is a big market but nobody seems too interested in filling that niche.
August 16, 20168 yr I've been to the FEB on weekend afternoons and there seems to be lots of families roaming around but very little for them to do. Most of the restaurants aren't family friendly. There isn't a splash pad, giant chess board or a playground in the development. To me, that's a lost opportunity especially since you have a large family attraction just across the river. Somebody downtown should try to capitalize on attracting families as it is a big market but nobody seems too interested in filling that niche. In other places the boardwalk is exactly what supports and fosters that kind of diversified attraction you're describing. The FEB boardwalk needs to be expanded upon and utilized better; right now it's more or less a deck by the water.
August 17, 20168 yr 2 more venues will open over the next six months Margaritaville and Rascal Flatts. Both 10k sq ft and above. Be interesting to see the impact they have. Good point. Both of those should bring in people that won't normally venture down there. The FEB could benefit from some family friendly attractions. Something to help diversify, like the Aquarium on the West Bank. Right now FEB reminds me of an adult Disneyland. Doesn't get much more family friendly than Punch Bowl Social....
August 17, 20168 yr 2 more venues will open over the next six months Margaritaville and Rascal Flatts. Both 10k sq ft and above. Be interesting to see the impact they have. Good point. Both of those should bring in people that won't normally venture down there. The FEB could benefit from some family friendly attractions. Something to help diversify, like the Aquarium on the West Bank. Right now FEB reminds me of an adult Disneyland. The water taxi connects the aquarium to FEB so I agree, there needs to be some more family friendly stuff down there. I've been to the FEB on weekend afternoons and there seems to be lots of families roaming around but very little for them to do. Most of the restaurants aren't family friendly. There isn't a splash pad, giant chess board or a playground in the development. To me, that's a lost opportunity especially since you have a large family attraction just across the river. Somebody downtown should try to capitalize on attracting families as it is a big market but nobody seems too interested in filling that niche. Umm... there is a giant chess pad outside coastal taco.
August 17, 20168 yr I was at FWD last Thursday and was talking with one of the bartenders. Apparently the soft opening of Magnolia is this weekend? Has anyone heard anything more about the space or found pictures of the inside? It's supposed to be really small inside, much smaller than FWD. I snapped a couple photos of the outside omw to FWD too. Yeah I talked to one of the promoters a while ago. It's a donut shop and a nightclub. Interesting mix lol. Haven't seen any pictures yet though
August 17, 20168 yr 2 more venues will open over the next six months Margaritaville and Rascal Flatts. Both 10k sq ft and above. Be interesting to see the impact they have. Good point. Both of those should bring in people that won't normally venture down there. The FEB could benefit from some family friendly attractions. Something to help diversify, like the Aquarium on the West Bank. Right now FEB reminds me of an adult Disneyland. The water taxi connects the aquarium to FEB so I agree, there needs to be some more family friendly stuff down there. I've been to the FEB on weekend afternoons and there seems to be lots of families roaming around but very little for them to do. Most of the restaurants aren't family friendly. There isn't a splash pad, giant chess board or a playground in the development. To me, that's a lost opportunity especially since you have a large family attraction just across the river. Somebody downtown should try to capitalize on attracting families as it is a big market but nobody seems too interested in filling that niche. Umm... there is a giant chess pad outside coastal taco. Isn't the chess pad on the patio with the ping pong tables and cornhole? I agree that's nice but Coastal Taco is also a bar that features DJ's on a regular basis. I'm envisioning public areas for families not more bars catering to millenials. I don't love Maryland's National Harbor but it seems to have the perfect blend. It attracts families, couples and singles and does it successfully. They have a carousel, public art, and play areas yet it also has a comedy club and a dueling piano bar. There's no reason FEB couldn't follow a similar route especially if they are trying to change the Flats reputation as nothing but a place to party.
August 17, 20168 yr The Flats' wikipedia page is pretty outdated; with no or little information about the recent changes - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Flats
August 17, 20168 yr There are rumors of a brewery going into Crops's locations. I doubt they are this adventurous (which is why I think they have done so well over the years) but how cool would it be for a satellite Great Lakes brewery location on the east bank??
August 17, 20168 yr The Flats' wikipedia page is pretty outdated; with no or little information about the recent changes - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Flats Then add something. Wikipedia is group edited.
August 22, 20168 yr Some pictures from Magnolia's opening this past weekend. Looks pretty classy but I'll reserve full judgement until I've seen it in person. http://www.cleveland.com/entertainment/index.ssf/2016/08/first_look_magnolia_donut_shop.html#0
August 22, 20168 yr Every time I see a new FEB post, I hope its an announcement for Phase III going forward ... only to be constantly disappointed... ... I'll definitely check out Magnolia. Sounds like an interesting departure from the status quo...
September 21, 20168 yr Looking at the updated FEB site plan on their website indicates they have the Crop spaces as 'Executed Lease/Coming Soon'. They only show one space that is still available next to Magnolia. So apparently something should be announced regarding the Crop space.
September 21, 20168 yr ... still now word on Phase III, eh? ... troubling. How could they announce phase III when they've got multiple vacancies in Phase II? Give it time. Last thing we need is more vacant buildings downtown.
September 21, 20168 yr Author Phase 3 includes an 11-story apartment tower over a grocery store and/or movie theater. It may or may not include an office building, measuring roughly 150,000 square feet. That would perfectly fit Forest City's space needs. And as for the office vacancies, one thing that the Flats East Bank's 21-story tower showed us is that if a high-quality, Class A space is built, there are office tenants willing to move to it (and the old office space will become apartments).... http://www.crainscleveland.com/article/20130510/FREE/130519971/ernst-young-tower-raises-prospects-for-more-office-construction "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
September 21, 20168 yr The original model for this, mostly residential high rises, was more viable than the model they ended up going with. Nobody wanted a new batch of high-rent high-risk bar and restaurant spaces. FEB includes structures that are literally nothing but that. The current move toward residential and general neighborhood amenities seems like a good one.
November 10, 20168 yr Another restaurant casualty in the east bank of the flats... http://www.clevescene.com/scene-and-heard/archives/2016/11/10/willeyville-the-first-restaurant-to-open-in-flats-east-bank-has-closed Ouch. The article calls the Willeyville owners "pioneers." Never thought of it that way, but it's a very good point; the Flats 2.0 are indeed an untested location. What really hurts is this comment: “I think we were executing on a high level,” adds the chef. “I’ve never been more proud of the food we put out, the service has been great, the ambiance, I thought, was great. I mean, we hit on every single mark. You put the restaurant in Hudson or Moreland Hills and we’re killing it, which is frustrating.” This comment should be a wake up call. FEB should be drawing 100x the number of visitors vs. places like Moreland Hills and Hudson. Problem is, the Flats are a long long way from running on all cylinders, and I think there's only so much Wolstein can do realistically to get there on his own. There needs to be more coordination, a more tangible and cohesive effort to keep on improving the entire area, and not just the island that FEB seems to be. Time is of the essence. How is that done? Well, better access would be a great start. That boardwalk, while nice, goes nowhere. Like the Towpath, its function should be to help funnel more people biking and walking into the neighborhood. It has to connect things, and it requires a high degree of coordination among stakeholders (RTA!) that you usually don't see in Cleveland for whatever reason. Watch out though. When the Towpath and Lake Link Trail finally open there will be a considerable influx of new people. A game changer. But at the glacial pace at which we're going, it's certainly not going to help save some of the current "pioneers" that are down there now. Second, as a waterfront location the FEB and Flats in general create a unique situation. I have no idea whether Wolstein & Co. truly considered how to emulate what works along other prosperous waterfronts. The design layout of Coastal Taco tells me they have some idea. But the Boardwalk, the retail mix and the out of place design of Flipside add to my suspicion that they do not have a complete understanding of what makes a great and versatile waterfront. FEB also needs something added to the mix. Something of an attraction that's different than a bar or restaurant. A movie theater complex has been suggested and I think many agree that's a fairly risky and lazy idea. Diversity is the key for keeping the neighborhood healthy, because we've all seen what happened with the Flats 1.0. What's the secret ingredient that's missing here? It's a billion dollar question.
November 10, 20168 yr ^I agree with a lot of what you're saying (btw, I take WFL/RTA down to FEB all the time (during those times it's operational which is becoming less and less) and the Rapid is a breeze, but I'm optimistic. With new joints going in, like the still-hush-hush beer joint going into the old Watermark restaurant on Old River Rd and FEB Phase III on the way -- hopefully soon, along with new Settler's Point offices in the old Sammy's building, the area is hot ... and growing. Punch Bowl and other spots are packed on weekends even now that the weather is getting colder... It's all coming along, we just have to be patient.
November 10, 20168 yr I think the FEB needs to cycle through the idea that it's exclusively an entertainment district first and foremost. Those spots have a great location and have the potential to be a great draw, but if you live down there, there are very little services or everyday businesses. The amount the owners want to lease per square foot needs to come down so some actual small business can move in. Willeyville sounds like it was great, but it clearly needed people from outside downtown eating there to keep it afloat. I live a mile away and have to pass lots of cheaper and/or more attractive places to spend money. When I have gone to FEB, the lack of an identity for the neighborhood strikes me. Aspects of the clientele remind me of the old 90s flats (which I was part of) and not in a good way. The river & city views are great, the streets are clean and the atmosphere is...I don't know..not there. It's a ghost town on a Tuesday afternoon.
November 10, 20168 yr Another restaurant closes. FEB a revolving door of failed restaurants. http://www.wkyc.com/news/local/cleveland/the-flats-wileyville-closes-after-3-years/350768927
November 11, 20168 yr I fear this is a sign of things to come... I predict Flip Side will not be far behind. It usually empty.
November 11, 20168 yr I fear this is a sign of things to come... I predict Flip Side will not be far behind. It usually empty. I may be off base here (because I have no restaurant experience) but this doesn't worry me too much. It seems like less a problem for the development as a whole, and more the individual restaurants. With what I'm assuming are fairly high rents and high competition, you really need to make your establishment stand out in order to succeed here. I don't think Willeyville (or FlipSide mentioned above) really did that. I do think conversely that Margaritaville and Raacal Flats will be unique draws to the area, and more entertainment options are needed to sustain that many restaurants.
November 11, 20168 yr There is always huge turnover with restaurants in prominent and gritty areas alike. I hate to see the restaurant closing, but I wouldn't lose to much sleep over it unless I'm an investor.
November 13, 20168 yr Author Two Flats classics set to be remodeled November 13, 2016 UPDATED 2 DAYS AGO By STAN BULLARD After years of sitting quiet and largely empty, two pre-Civil War buildings on the waterfront side of Old River Road in Cleveland's Flats are having their courses set for reuse. Thanks to a partnership formed by the building's owners — Mike Samsel and his sister, Kathy Petrick — with the Catanese family and real estate developer Fred Geis, the riverside buildings are being outfitted or scheduled for repairs. First up is the Hausheer Building, which has gotten everything from a new roof and coat of paint on its outside to updated mechanicals in its guts, according to Samsel. "We're getting them ready for tenants to come in and make their own improvements," Samsel said. MORE: http://www.crainscleveland.com/article/20161113/NEWS/161119944/two-flats-classics-set-to-be-remodeled "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
November 15, 20168 yr Looks like it's four buildings! This is huuu-ge! Four Flats buildings set for renovations as Samsel, Geis and Catanese join forces http://realestate.cleveland.com/realestate-news/2016/11/four_flats_buildings_set_for_r.html#incart_target2box_default_#incart_target2box_targeted_ A restaurant is scheduled to open in the spring in the former Watermark space downstairs, where patrons will have access to spruced-up patios along the river. Samsel, Petrick and Geis won't say much about the eatery, but a building permit posted on the property alludes to a company registered with the state as Old River Brewing Company Cleveland LLC or Big Cat Brewery.
November 15, 20168 yr This is great news....but has anyone heard if there are plans to extend the Boardwalk? That dead patch between FEB and Canal Basin Park will become pretty annoying!!
November 16, 20168 yr Author Welcome, mack34! "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
November 16, 20168 yr This is great news....but has anyone heard if there are plans to extend the Boardwalk? That dead patch between FEB and Canal Basin Park will become pretty annoying!! I doubt it. That was really expensive
November 16, 20168 yr No knowledge on the stretch between FEB and Canal Basin Park, but the (concrete)walk that's already in the park is going to be expanded thru where the old pump station (being replaced) and the site of the former Van Duzer building. That reminds me, I snapped some pictures on Sunday. They're getting started on that stretch of the park. Based on the new fencing that's been put up, and what's come down, I'm guessing they'll soon start on replacing the pump house and tearing up that dead-end stretch of road. BTW, the recently completed part behind Flat Iron Cafe looks fantastic.
November 29, 20168 yr Downtown/Flats Design Review Case Report DANTE'S INFERNO & THIRSTY DOG BREWERY - FLATS EAST BANK Back Return to Case List | Start Over | Print Report (PDF format) Project Information Downtown/Flats Case # DF 2016-126 Address: 1059 & 1075 Old River Road Company: HSB Architects Architect: HSB Architects Description: Two new tenants replacing the Crop spaces within the Flats East Bank Development. http://planning.city.cleveland.oh.us/designreview/brd/detailDR.php?ID=2361&CASE=DF%202016-126
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