That doesn't mean there is a vacancy. It could mean that tenants have notified the property manager that they will not renew their leases.

And apartments.com has 12. I work within line of sight of the building... It's fully rented.

These are apartments, people move every 12 months. Why is this surprising that there are units for rent? Yabo and simplythis talking in circles again.

These are apartments, people move every 12 months. Why is this surprising that there are units for rent? Yabo and simplythis talking in circles again.

 

Maybe even more often if they catch you growing more than cilantro in your herb garden. Or something of that nature...

If they get Phase III going and make it into a neighborhood instead of a restaurant destination, you'll see those vacancies go down.

If they get Phase III going and make it into a neighborhood instead of a restaurant destination, you'll see those vacancies go down.

 

Where would Phase III go? North of the current developments?

If they get Phase III going and make it into a neighborhood instead of a restaurant destination, you'll see those vacancies go down.

 

Where would Phase III go? North of the current developments?

 

The parking lot between phase I and phase II

Some poster responding to the Playhouse square tower said that he heard that MM could

be going to FEB. Has anyone else heard anything about that possibility.  Remember

FEB had drawing of that 5 story suburban horizontal building a few years ago.

Some poster responding to the Playhouse square tower said that he heard that MM could

be going to FEB. Has anyone else heard anything about that possibility.  Remember

FEB had drawing of that 5 story suburban horizontal building a few years ago.

 

I think I was the only one who mentioned Medical Mutual in the Playhouse Square tower thread. And I never mentioned anything about FEB....

 

I am so happy this project has been announced. Because Playhouse square being the owner this project

could see construction sooner than Nucleus & Weston which have been announce a couple of years ago.

 

Unless Weston grabs one of the new headquarters for Medical Mutual or Sherwin Williams, or possibly an East Coast company relocating their back-office operations in a lower-cost market like Cleveland.

 

That doesn't mean MM won't go to FEB. It's entirely possible. There were lots of proposed uses and site plans for the area north of Front Street to the Norfolk Southern freight tracks, as well as between the NS tracks and inside the Waterfront Line loop. It even included a corporate headquarters for Eaton Corp. inside the Waterfront Line loop. Too bad that never happened.

Some poster responding to the Playhouse square tower said that he heard that MM could

be going to FEB. Has anyone else heard anything about that possibility.  Remember

FEB had drawing of that 5 story suburban horizontal building a few years ago.

 

I think I was the only one who mentioned Medical Mutual in the Playhouse Square tower thread. And I never mentioned anything about FEB....

 

I am so happy this project has been announced. Because Playhouse square being the owner this project

could see construction sooner than Nucleus & Weston which have been announce a couple of years ago.

 

Unless Weston grabs one of the new headquarters for Medical Mutual or Sherwin Williams, or possibly an East Coast company relocating their back-office operations in a lower-cost market like Cleveland.

 

That doesn't mean MM won't go to FEB. It's entirely possible. There were lots of proposed uses and site plans for the area north of Front Street to the Norfolk Southern freight tracks, as well as between the NS tracks and inside the Waterfront Line loop. It even included a corporate headquarters for Eaton Corp. inside the Waterfront Line loop. Too bad that never happened.

 

Selfishly, I don't like this idea. If MM builds vertically, I don't want it to be in a place that is 80 feet depressed in height from the rest of downtown. Prominence, people, prominence!

Some poster responding to the Playhouse square tower said that he heard that MM could

be going to FEB. Has anyone else heard anything about that possibility.  Remember

FEB had drawing of that 5 story suburban horizontal building a few years ago.

 

I think I was the only one who mentioned Medical Mutual in the Playhouse Square tower thread. And I never mentioned anything about FEB....

 

I am so happy this project has been announced. Because Playhouse square being the owner this project

could see construction sooner than Nucleus & Weston which have been announce a couple of years ago.

 

Unless Weston grabs one of the new headquarters for Medical Mutual or Sherwin Williams, or possibly an East Coast company relocating their back-office operations in a lower-cost market like Cleveland.

 

That doesn't mean MM won't go to FEB. It's entirely possible. There were lots of proposed uses and site plans for the area north of Front Street to the Norfolk Southern freight tracks, as well as between the NS tracks and inside the Waterfront Line loop. It even included a corporate headquarters for Eaton Corp. inside the Waterfront Line loop. Too bad that never happened.

And I can remember back to when was a possible DFAS location. 

ELCEE2 WATER TAXI TO PROVIDE SERVICE AT NO COST FOR 2017 SUMMER  :clap: :clap: :clap:

 

Thanks to the generosity of local steelmaker ArcelorMittal Cleveland, Cleveland Metroparks eLCee2 Water Taxi will provide service to passengers free-of-charge, during normal business hours, for the remainder of the 2017 season.

 

Now in its second season, the 26-foot canopied Crosby yacht provides a connection to/from the East and West Bank of The Flats. The water taxi can accommodate 17 passengers and up to four bikes. The boat is ADA accessible and dog friendly.

 

 

http://www.downtowncleveland.com/news/june-2017/elcee2-water-taxi-to-provide-service-at-no-cost-fo

This is great news.

^^Excellente!

Got into town Friday night and Saturday evening, after attending an excellent, well-attended Shaker Square Festival + Larchmere Porchfest, we headed downtown... by car; wanted to go to the Flats which was both: great decision/big mistake).  It was around 10:30 or so when we arrived downtown. But heading north from Public Square, we knew there was trouble ahead -- 2 solid lines of traffic on St. Clair and Lakeside heading westbound ... into the Flats.  They were both literal parking lots; but what choice did we have.  It was a gorgeous breezy night after a hot/humid 92 degree day... Who wouldn't want to be down near water where all the excitement was?

 

But the drive in was a nightmare.  It took about 30-35 minutes to get down to the Flats and ditch the car at the first available place we could find -- in this case, we saw a car leaving the $10 lot next to the Archer Apts.  People wise, I haven't seen the Flats this packed since the glory days of the 90s.  Every venue was overflowing; the outdoor deck Coastal Taco was converted into a disco with a DJ; the food-only Alley Cat closed at around 11:30, not long after we arrived.  But the narrow FEB streets were total gridlock.

 

Obvious solution: run the RTA Waterfront Line until 2p (last train, Blue Line, actually leaving at 2:15) from Memorial Day weekend to Labor Day weekend.  This was done in the late 90s early 2000s to much success.  Rapid trains -- oftentimes running in 2-car sets, were highly patronized.  Even packed on some runs, esp when the clubs/bars generally were closing between 1:30 and 2p.  This policy was done until the Flats declined in the early 2000s.  But they are clearly alive and well today -- and they still are being developed.

 

We didn't see any free Trolleys, but if we did, they would have been gridlocked just like every other the vehicle (plus the Trolleys shut down after 11p anyway, as I understand).  There are only a few vehicles known to mankind that could have circumnavigated that traffic: a helicopter, a personal jetpack ... or an RTA Waterfront Line train ... much as WFL trains did in the 90s as we rolled past standing cars heading to Tower City and the burbs.  So why not now? 

 

All Aboard Ohio's advocacy in this would make sense and could move the dial.  And after one brief comment by Adam Fishman griping about the (then) proposed WFL cutbacks, we haven't heard squat from Fairmount, who's FEB development would certainly benefit from WFL trains lightening the gridlock.

 

It was such a mess, we decided to sit along the Boardwalk, then outside Coastal Taco and wait until the traffic eased ... by about 3:30a!!!  But it was warm and fun and a lot of folks were doing the same.  Great boat and people watching, including watching the furious traffic security guy yelling at disobedient drivers and nearly get into fights with some of them; poor guy eventually got into an argument with his fellow security guy, cuss him out and stomp off the job in a huff ...

 

Run the damn Rapid to handle these crowds.  but don't take if from me... Overheard was one angry gridlocked driver yelling to his brood has his car was literally sitting on the out-of-service Rapid tracks waiting for the traffic to move up the Main Ave hill:  "They built the damn train, why don't they use it!?"

... this guy was a lot more succinct that I've been in this post...

Got into town Friday night and Saturday evening, after attending an excellent, well-attended Shaker Square Festival + Larchmere Porchfest, we headed downtown... by car; wanted to go to the Flats which was both: great decision/big mistake).  It was around 10:30 or so when we arrived downtown. But heading north from Public Square, we knew there was trouble ahead -- 2 solid lines of traffic on St. Clair and Lakeside heading westbound ... into the Flats.  They were both literal parking lots; but what choice did we have.  It was a gorgeous breezy night after a hot/humid 92 degree day... Who wouldn't want to be down near water where all the excitement was?

 

But the drive in was a nightmare.  It took about 30-35 minutes to get down to the Flats and ditch the car at the first available place we could find -- in this case, we saw a car leaving the $10 lot next to the Archer Apts.  People wise, I haven't seen the Flats this packed since the glory days of the 90s.  Every venue was overflowing; the outdoor deck Coastal Taco was converted into a disco with a DJ; the food-only Alley Cat closed at around 11:30, not long after we arrived.  But the narrow FEB streets were total gridlock.

 

Obvious solution: run the RTA Waterfront Line until 2p (last train, Blue Line, actually leaving at 2:15) from Memorial Day weekend to Labor Day weekend.  This was done in the late 90s early 2000s to much success.  Rapid trains -- oftentimes running in 2-car sets, were highly patronized.  Even packed on some runs, esp when the clubs/bars generally were closing between 1:30 and 2p.  This policy was done until the Flats declined in the early 2000s.  But they are clearly alive and well today -- and they still are being developed.

 

We didn't see any free Trolleys, but if we did, they would have been gridlocked just like every other the vehicle (plus the Trolleys shut down after 11p anyway, as I understand).  There are only a few vehicles known to mankind that could have circumnavigated that traffic: a helicopter, a personal jetpack ... or an RTA Waterfront Line train ... much as WFL trains did in the 90s as we rolled past standing cars heading to Tower City and the burbs.  So why not now? 

 

All Aboard Ohio's advocacy in this would make sense and could move the dial.  And after one brief comment by Adam Fishman griping about the (then) proposed WFL cutbacks, we haven't heard squat from Fairmount, who's FEB development would certainly benefit from WFL trains lightening the gridlock.

 

It was such a mess, we decided to sit along the Boardwalk, then outside Coastal Taco and wait until the traffic eased ... by about 3:30a!!!  But it was warm and fun and a lot of folks were doing the same.  Great boat and people watching, including watching the furious traffic security guy yelling at disobedient drivers and nearly get into fights with some of them; poor guy eventually got into an argument with his fellow security guy, cuss him out and stomp off the job in a huff ...

 

Run the damn Rapid to handle these crowds.  but don't take if from me... Overheard was one angry gridlocked driver yelling to his brood has his car was literally sitting on the Rapid waiting for the traffic to move up the Main Ave hill:  "They built the damn train, why don't they use it!?"

... this guy was a lot more succinct that I've been in this post...

 

Here's what I have been doing. Parking across from the Flat Iron at Settler's Landing and walking (provided the temperature was bareable) OR parking at the aquarium and hopping on the water taxi, both would be more time efficient. Though, your comment is noted and probably should be confronted in a meaningful way.

 

Cleveland has been a victim of its own success in FEB and the new developments at Edgewater - I have heard nothing but "the [venue] is beautiful and fun but boy was getting out of there a nightmare."

Cleveland has been a victim of its own success in FEB and the new developments at Edgewater - I have heard nothing but "the [venue] is beautiful and fun but boy was getting out of there a nightmare."

 

It's going to be interesting to watch how travel patterns evolve. It's an issue where the city can really help out by being smart and proactive, fingers crossed. The fact that they are already closing W73 after events at Edgewater is enough evidence that improving access to our waterfront attractions is going to require a continual effort.   

My cousin heard rumblings of a "Top Golf" opening Near FEB. I feel like it's not possible due to the footprint; has anyone else heard anything of the sort?

This would be nice, but where would it go?

Saturday was my first venture into FEB this year where we stayed well into the night.  It was packed as I've never seen it -- it certainly matched, and may have exceeded, those 90s Flats crowds, certainly on the East Bank.  And what's even more noteworthy is there was no special event or Indians game on Saturday.  So if anything, average summer crowds could end up being EVEN BIGGER than this one.  It's such a tight/restricted area, which is why the Rapid was built down there in the first place... If it's like this now, think about what it will be like once Phase III is finally built.

You could fit their usual 500-600 ft driving range on the lot north of Ernst Young but it would be about a third the width of a usual top golf. Pretty much the same problem with the lot on the other side of west 9th. I guess they could put it across the railroad tracks on the land where the old FEB plans had an office building going?

While it would be a big footprint, a driving range would be a hole in one with the crowd that is starting to coalesce around FEB. Though I'm not exactly sure what you do at a driving range in the winter. It kind of requires a big open window to hit gold balls out of.

 

https://topgolf.com/assets/uploads/gallery/west-chester/playing-bay-topgolf-west-chester-01.jpg

 

 

Lots of ranges are open in the winter. They use individual heaters, and some have a garage door in each bay.

While it would be a big footprint, a driving range would be a hole in one with the crowd that is starting to coalesce around FEB. Though I'm not exactly sure what you do at a driving range in the winter. It kind of requires a big open window to hit gold balls out of.

 

https://topgolf.com/assets/uploads/gallery/west-chester/playing-bay-topgolf-west-chester-01.jpg

 

I was at the the one in Denver this winter. It was about 30 degrees outside on a work day and it was very lively. They have heaters that are adjustable at each "booth" which work very well allowing you to play during the colder months. Top Golf is a blast even if you don't like golf and it attracts the business crowds by the masses, I'd love to see it in the Flats.

 

That being said, Top Golf requires a large amount of space. It's more of a complex. To me, it'd be far fetched to believe one was coming to the Flats.

With the heaters, I don't think the temperatures would be much of an issue. However, I would think the winter wind coming in off the lake would play havoc with any ideas of hitting a ball in certain direction. It would be awesome if they could put on in, but it doesn't seem to be the right fit.

With the heaters, I don't think the temperatures would be much of an issue. However, I would think the winter wind coming in off the lake would play havoc with any ideas of hitting a ball in certain direction. It would be awesome if they could put on in, but it doesn't seem to be the right fit.

 

Agreed with the lake issue.  If you have ever played top golf, I think you could see how this might actually make the game more fun,  as it is more of a game than a driving range

Could it possibly fit on top of a phase three building on the parking lot?

Could it possibly fit on top of a phase three building on the parking lot?

 

From looking at their other sites they seem to build with a distance of 500-600ft (as stated above) and a width of 300-400ft.  A quick google distance measurement shows that that parking lot is still small, by about 100ft in each direction.  Not to say that it couldn't work, but this venture seems like something more likely to end up at Crocker or Pinecrest.

I truly hope this golf this is not put on the east bank. Way to kill momentum and density. plus it not safe with golf balls hitting people and cars----i know there's a tall fence/net around it, but you know people will purposely try to get it over the net, esp. drunk partiers.  Imagine what you could do with that much space--how many condos or offices or apts you could build. And if it must be green space, how about a nice park with one section with a playground for kids which i don't think is ANYWHERE downtown or on the East Bank---which is a necessity if you're trying to attract young couples or families with little kids.

 

 

Plenty of room across the river. Seems like more of a fit for Jacobs Entertainment, especially with their gaming/entertainment holdings. If it comes here I hope it goes in the city somewhere.

I think top golf would be awesome for that area, though perhaps not that specific location. It eats up a lot of space, brings in more revenue, and diversifies the general theme of only restaurants and condos/apartments, and feasibly attracts other businesses.

Parrotheads will have to wait a little longer. http://www.cleveland19.com/story/35737684/margaritaville-in-the-flats-opening-date-pushed-back

New dates again. http://www.wkyc.com/life/food/margaritaville-cleveland-announces-new-july-opening-date/452136803

I know some knock Margaritaville as a chain, but the architectural build-out from the original Toby Keith's frame looks interesting, if nothing else, esp. the outdoor elevated balcony overlooking the river.

View

Margaritaville did look open today for lunch.  Just in time for the holiday weekend.  We'll see how much this adds to the FEB traffic. 

Margaritaville did look open today for lunch.  Just in time for the holiday weekend.  We'll see how much this adds to the FEB traffic. 

Should be a huge hit for lunch on Sunday when the weather is beautiful!

Looks like invited guests this weekend and likely open for real Monday.

A pretty informative piece mostly about Margaritaville.

 

http://www.cleveland.com/entertainment/index.ssf/2017/07/cleveland_flats_hits_critical.html#incart_river_home_pop

^As positive an article as this is about the "critical mass" Margaritaville creates for the New Flats, notably FEB, not a word was mentioned about the status of Phase III, which is disconcerting.

:roll:  The article wasn't about Phase III, so I wouldn't get too upset by that.

My parents were down in the Flats a few weeks ago and said everything was slammed, especially Margaritaville. It almost reminded them of how it was back in the 80s - almost. I'm definitely not the target audience for Margaritaville, but I hope it ends up being more successful than the one in Cincinnati that still somehow managed to get closed despite being in the city that probably has the most parrotheads per capita. But of course, Cleveland's riverfront location for it is much nicer than the Cincinnati one, which was sort of hidden in the casino, which itself is sort of isolated from the rest of downtown.

Phase 3 is going to be either more apartments or more office.  The apartments have not been a huge success from many I've talked to.  I think it was the right idea to include the product in the development but I've heard about many issues with construction, noise, management, etc.  I don't see them doing more apartments right away because of this.  For office, they are going to wait until a major tenant comes calling.  Too many other planned deals out there and the cost of new construction demands rents in the $30/sf, it will take long time to fill even a 5-6 story building. 

Phase 3 is going to be either more apartments or more office.  The apartments have not been a huge success from many I've talked to.  I think it was the right idea to include the product in the development but I've heard about many issues with construction, noise, management, etc.  I don't see them doing more apartments right away because of this.  For office, they are going to wait until a major tenant comes calling.  Too many other planned deals out there and the cost of new construction demands rents in the $30/sf, it will take long time to fill even a 5-6 story building.

 

If they did a "piece-by-piece" conversion to condos, those would be bought FAST. I know I've caught flack on here for saying this, but the apartments still have a high vacancy rate relative to downtown. Any Trulia search will always show 5-10 units available at any particular time which, for downtown, is not usual

:roll:  The article wasn't about Phase III, so I wouldn't get too upset by that.

 

The article wasn't about Phase III, per se, but about the Flats, notably the revitalized, still new FEB meeting critical mass, following the very successful opening of Margaritaville.  So therefore it dealt with FEB's future viability of which, obviously, one would think includes at least a mention of Phase III.  It's called critical reasoning and logic.  :wink:

I was down in the flats this past Saturday and the place was complete GRIDLOCKED. Stop and go traffic, horns blasting, parking lots were SLAMMED. The sidewalks were packed as well. Margaritaville had to lock their doors because they were filled to capacity. It got me to thinking about Phase 3. MY thoughts were, if they were to build on that parking lot across from the apartments then something dramatic needs to change on the end of RTA with the Waterfront line or the City when it comes to these no parking police orders. That crowd was so gridlocked that only a fool would think that the waterfront line would not be jam packed. When it comes to the police orders that say no parking from Friday-Saturday 8PM-4AM at perfectly good meters can anyone explain to me why those are there? There was a ton of parking that had to be passed up on because of this nonsense, aiding in the craziness. Also having more restaurants or establishments down there that didn't close at 11 or 12 on a SATURDAY NIGHT IN THE SUMMER would be great for the neighborhood. Me and my fiancé had to leave because we couldn't get in anywhere before the place closed.

Phase 3 is going to be either more apartments or more office.  The apartments have not been a huge success from many I've talked to.  I think it was the right idea to include the product in the development but I've heard about many issues with construction, noise, management, etc.  I don't see them doing more apartments right away because of this.  For office, they are going to wait until a major tenant comes calling.  Too many other planned deals out there and the cost of new construction demands rents in the $30/sf, it will take long time to fill even a 5-6 story building. 

 

Unfortunately empirical evidence would support this, as well as prior concerns voiced by simplythis... Eyeballing the FEB structure indicates many unoccupied units with large white shades pulled.  I can understand noise being an issue, especially with the crowds and nearby boats and trains, but I hadn't heard of a management problem... This being the case, I'm wondering if revising Phase III wouldn't be prudent to include more retail -- clothing shops, other retail (retail is sorely lacking in FEB -- and the rest of downtown, for that matter)  and perhaps a movie theatre -- in a low rise - say 2 or 3 story building with parking above; but have it built like 515 so that apartments can be built on top of it as the future market allows.

 

I know I've caught flack on here for saying this, but the apartments still have a high vacancy rate relative to downtown. Any Trulia search will always show 5-10 units available at any particular time which, for downtown, is not usual

 

Listings don't = vacant units. If someone isn't able to renew their lease for whatever reason that unit will be listed. Doesn't mean it is sitting empty, it means the next rent cycle for it will need to switch from one renter to a new renter. That's hardly a sign of a problem. The only possible way to not have this would be if 100% of your renters never left which isn't realistic. Unless someone can show that these have always been vacant this isn't a sign of anything other than turnover.

Phase 3 is going to be either more apartments or more office.  The apartments have not been a huge success from many I've talked to.  I think it was the right idea to include the product in the development but I've heard about many issues with construction, noise, management, etc.  I don't see them doing more apartments right away because of this.  For office, they are going to wait until a major tenant comes calling.  Too many other planned deals out there and the cost of new construction demands rents in the $30/sf, it will take long time to fill even a 5-6 story building. 

 

Unfortunately empirical evidence would support this, as well as prior concerns voiced by simplythis... Eyeballing the FEB structure indicates many unoccupied units with large white shades pulled.  I can understand noise being an issue, especially with the crowds and nearby boats and trains, but I hadn't heard of a management problem... This being the case, I'm wondering if revising Phase III wouldn't be prudent to include more retail -- clothing shops, other retail (retail is sorely lacking in FEB -- and the rest of downtown, for that matter)  and perhaps a movie theatre -- in a low rise - say 2 or 3 story building with parking above; but have it built like 515 so that apartments can be built on top of it as the future market allows.

Having a theater that can rival that of valley view's down there would be great. It is such a large theater as well. I do think some sort of retail needs to be down there to extend the draw of the FEB into the day as well. During the day every time I visit it is pretty empty.

A theater to rival Valley View would be tough.  Valley View is located in a more central location in the metro area and is easily accessible via interstate and plenty of free parking.  It's not to say it can't be done but it will be challenging.

 

More daytime uses would be great but challenging as well.  Most of the daytime population downtown (office workers) are located a long walk away from FEB.  One could spend their entire lunch time getting there and back.  Perhaps more office uses in the Flats or Warehouse District could help but as was alluded to by gottaplan, it will be difficult to fill new office space.  Perhaps MM and/or SW could move there.